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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
experience vs talent?
experience vs talent?
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Kyzer Sosa
476 posts
May 07, 2010
2:36 PM
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everyone has an innate ability to do one thing, or some things better than others. Some have a talent to pick up something and just run with it...and very quickly become better than most that are experienced in a short period of time. experience be damned.
Ive noticed that those who we hold in high regard as excellent harmonica players, are very proficient in knowing the science/math of the instrument as well as a thorough knowledge of music in general...especially how it pertains to the harp. thats where im a dumbass...
i dont konw shit about 1st, 5th, 11th, pentatonic, iambic pentameter, whatever.. I just know what sounds good. But in my short experience, that tells me it just isnt enough. Being able to play something without explaining it or knowing what you did seems to leave me with the short end of the stick, and a sense of emptiness..
Its a foreign language.
I think part of knowing OB's, OD's, BB's, etc, and where to put them in my play, is so much more than what my ear can give my brain. I think with a little tech knowledge, and a good setup harp, becoming proficient would come much easier...for everyone.
Some people can rattle off the technical side of harp playing, and I so desperately want to be that guy.
i guess what im getting at is that if i want to be a true master of the instrument, i cant rely on my ears alone. i have to crack a book and learn what all that foreign language means. or im destined for mediocrity....
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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congaron
868 posts
May 07, 2010
2:46 PM
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Try to play along with the radio with whatever harp is closest by. Do it until it hurts. Once you figure out what does and doesn't work, do it some more and go to local jam nights. ENJOY yourself. Put a cowboy hat on and sit by a campfire and just play.
Anything that takes the enjoyment out of the music, get rid of. If you honestly believe adding book knowledge to your bag of harp tricks will INCREASE your enjoyment, then dig in. If not, there's plenty of enjoyable music sitting in the harp waiting for you to just bring it out.
True mastery isn't absolutely required...if it were, everybody but a handful would give it up altogether. Besides, what's the true definition of true mastery? For me it's a positive audience reaction and steady progress as time goes by.
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gene
459 posts
May 07, 2010
3:30 PM
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I wonder if Little Walter, Big Walter, Big Mama Thornton, Medium Walter and all them had PhDs in music...
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tookatooka
1386 posts
May 07, 2010
3:40 PM
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Hi Kyzer, I know what you mean. I saw that Alex video and it makes me feel quite inadequate as a player (or learning player)
I suppose it all depends on where you want to take it. Personally I'm just a leisure player and play for my own satisfaction but that doesn't mean I'm happy to be mediocre. I do pick up the odd little bit of info here and there and it does broaden my knowledge. I think going too deep into the theory would kill it for me.
Although I think Alex and his kind are proficient players, I can't help thinking that there time would be better spent playing an instrument that has a greater range. It's all very well squeezing stuff out of the harp that it wasn't really designed to do, but I find that the combination of OB's, OD's and other so called advanced techniques really doesn't sound very good at all.
I admire those who try to do it, but I'm sorry, I couldn't sit and listen to any of it for any length of time. 2 minutes max.
I know I may be copping out, but I console myself by thinking, well just how much theory did the old masters really know and if knowing none was good enough for them then it's good enough for me.
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waltertore
519 posts
May 07, 2010
3:50 PM
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this is your truth kyzer. Here is mine.
I play by ear, and have no interest in lessons, overblows, going beyond the second position. I know other ones but they require thinking and I don't enjoy thinking when I play. theory, harp repair, or even how they work, is of no interest. I learn by discovery and enjoy drifting on my instruments with no idea where I will go. My only "lessons" were getting with the old bluesmen. doing an apprentiship so to speak. That is how I enjoy learning. In some circles I am regarded as a good harp player and in others I am not. What others think of my playing is not on my agenda. I have long given up comparing myself to other players. they have their sound and I have mine. Neither can do the others, so why compare? I enjoy what I do. To me that is what really is my drive. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 4:01 PM
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Buddha
1748 posts
May 07, 2010
3:51 PM
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I don't believe in talent.
I believe in hard work and the ability to deconstruct information. I never take anything at face value. That point alone should give anyone great insight into how I am and why I consistently have alternate observations, opinions and ways of doing things.
For me, one of the things I completely deconstructed was the way music is generally taught. I think it's all wrong. As far as music goes, I am completely self taught.
Almost all of the material that is taught in schools and books focuses on notes. Playing the right note is only a small part of what comprises music.
I break music down to this:
Groove
Tone
Emotion
Dynamics
Articulation
Phrasing
Space
Listening
Rhythm
Technique
Notes
The Dream
When I give lessons, I rarely talk about notes/theory/harmony etc but I always talk about the other stuff. Notes are important but not as important as the other stuff.
Think about it, the correct notes played without rhythm, without good tone, outside of the groove etc... sounds worse then the wrong notes played with great tone, timing, rhythm and in the groove. Right?
I spent more time, working on all of the other stuff then I ever did working on theory.
Think about it some more, have you ever been wow'd by a musician to the point you just had to talk to him/her? Of course. Have you ever said to that person, "MAN, YOU PLAYED THE RIGHT NOTES!" or "MAN, YOU SOUNDED GREAT" or "MAN, YOU WERE IN THE GROOVE" or "MAN, YOU PLAY WITH SUCH EMOTION" etc...?
Nobody has ever mentioned that I pick great notes but people tell me all the time they love my tone, they love my phrasing, they love my sense of dynamics etc..
Anyway, talent is a bullshit label. We all have the ability to do what we want as well as others, some just lack the confidence to go against what we've all been taught since we were children.
The secret to being good at anything is to be awake. That's it. Don't be a follower as that is the road to blandness and ultimately failure. Be a leader and be a teacher. Now with that bit of information, you should have even greater insight into why I do what I do with some people on this board. I am almost always teaching in one way or another. Some people see it and learn from it, for others, I shake them enough to wake up and some simply fight to remain unaware.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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Joe_L
222 posts
May 07, 2010
4:00 PM
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It depends what you are attempting to do.
I know a lot of great Blues players that couldn't read music and didn't know much, if anything, about theory. We all learn different ways. Some, learn by theory, others by ear and emotion.
You need more experience. You don't typically find someone who is tops in their field that has a small amount of experience. With experience comes confidence.
Confidence is very important. If you aren't confident that you can execute, it is highly likely that you won't be able to execute. That applies to a lot of things in life, not just music.
Finally, I can think of a few excellent players that could not explain what they were doing if their life depended on it. They are excellent players. They will admit they are not teachers. Not everyone is a teacher. Remember the old joke, "those who can do. Those who can't teach. Those who can't do anything, teach PE."
Fortunately, there are some great players who do play AND are able to teach.
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tookatooka
1388 posts
May 07, 2010
4:11 PM
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@Kyzer said,
"I think with a little tech knowledge, and a good setup harp, becoming proficient would come much easier..."
I think this is very, very important. I definately think everyone should at least learn gapping skills. It's not difficult and can increase your enjoyability of the instrument tremendously.
Anyway Kyzer. What makes you think you can be a great visual artist and a highly talented musician too? Don't be greedy ;)
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 4:19 PM
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Joch230
123 posts
May 07, 2010
4:13 PM
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I agree with most of what Buddha says...but clearly some have more natural music talent than other. On the guitar, you can show 10 people a pentatonic scale and tell them to use it to jam over a basic 12 bar blues. Some of the 10 will just kind of go up and down the scale but some will quickly make licks, and use many of items on Buddha list of how he breaks down music.
There are people on this forum that have custom harps, the best harp amps, know how to OB and OD, know music theory and can play in several positions. But when you hear them play....the music just isn't that good. They are still loving it and that's what really matters...but it still isn't all that good.
And then there are some guys just starting out. They don't know tons of licks...no OB's, odd positions etc, that sound really good. Like the kid who was asking if he was ready to go out and play on the street.
I think Adam has made the point several times, that all gear, theory, etc aside...the music still comes from inside of you.
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DirtyDeck
36 posts
May 07, 2010
4:17 PM
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Strongly agree with everything you've said Joch.
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captainbliss
71 posts
May 07, 2010
4:35 PM
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@Kyzer Sosa:
Sounds like you've had an "aha" moment and seen what you need to do?
If so...
That's WONDERFUL!
Time to get studying?
@Buddha:
/I break music down to this:
Groove
Tone
Emotion
Dynamics
Articulation
Phrasing
Space
Listening
Rhythm
Technique
Notes
The Dream/
That's a really, really good list. Thank you. To which one might add "having something to say," I wonder?
/We all have the ability to do what we want as well as others/
Manifestly untrue.
BTW, I listened to one of the YouTube videos you shared elsewhere on this board (Swing Thing? The one that went Pink Panther for a bit.) and enjoyed it very much. Thank you for posting!
@Joch230:
/...the music still comes from inside of you./
Yes! Yes! Yes!
And YES!
xxx
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Greg Heumann
436 posts
May 07, 2010
4:38 PM
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Yeah, I'm another who believes talent has something to do with it. Or, let's call it "innate ability." I've known a guy for years who wants very badly to be a blues singer. He has listened to everyone and has had penty of opportunity to perform. But he simply sucks at it. He has no pitch, and he has no rhythm. You can hum or play a note and say - hum that note - he can't. I feel for him. But some people simply aren't musical.
On the other hand those of us in the majority who aren't blessed with an significant overabundance of "innate ability" - have to work at it. Experience DOES count. You can't learn everything at once.
And I totally agree with Chris's definition: Groove,Tone, Emotion, Dynamics, Articulation, Phrasing, Space, Listening, Rhythm, Technique, Notes, The Dream. Hell if you can groove enough you can play a hell of a solo with only 1, 2 or 3 notes. But they DO have to be the right ones.....
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 4:40 PM
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Kyzer Sosa
477 posts
May 07, 2010
4:50 PM
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@tooka
much as i have known, since childhood, that i could express myself visually through my artwork, so too, did i know that i had an inner music...it was never channeled as a youth. externally, everyone saw what i could do with a pencil and paper, but after a while, and at a certain level of proficiency, i decided that i must seek out those who are deemed great, and absorb their strengths, and incorporate their techniques into my own art.
I went to art college. A mistake, I must admit now, because I couldve learned all that i did, on my own...I went to seminars and galleries, shows, and conventions. All for the sake of soaking in as much as I could. Seeing firsthand, what I thought to be greater than me...all the while, being book smart about the things i was ignorant of. It helped me reach another plateau.
Most of my work revolves around photo realism. And that is how I break down what I hear played on the harmonica. its very much a generic approach, and if its within my reach, i simply dont stop doing it until i get it...i dissect it into pieces and imitate...it's how I learn. I use imitation to become individual.
As it relates to being more brainy about harp talk, well...I DO have an interest in it. Theory, scales, note layouts, etc...Ive never had anything to do with it before, and it represents a true challenge for me. Im 34 and have simply turned the page to another chapter in my life, and I find that Im no longer the guy that shines at what I do. I want to shine at the harmonica too...it's the way i run at it and to me, it certainly couldnt hurt to know more than I do. Blowing and sucking aside...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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Nastyolddog
675 posts
May 07, 2010
4:55 PM
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Try and tell a Blind man he can't learn with his ears:)
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Kyzer Sosa
479 posts
May 07, 2010
5:09 PM
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True, olddog, but try to teach a blind man what he wants to learn that doesnt involve hearing it...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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Jim Rumbaugh
212 posts
May 07, 2010
6:26 PM
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I can see both sides.
I recently went to a workshop hosted by a full time gigging harp player. His name has appeared in this forum. I had a question about pentatonic scales. He said, "what's a pentatonic scale?" Therefore I say, you don't need basic theory to be a good player. (he is a good player)
I recently read about pentatonic scale's via Harp-L. It opened musical doorways for me. I have been playing 9 years and wish it had been explained 6 years ago , or sooner. I can therefore say, basic theroy can save you years of learning by ear.
I can see both sides.
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nacoran
1824 posts
May 07, 2010
6:49 PM
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Talent is a lot of things. It's having good hearing, a good sense of rhythm, good coordination, a good head for learning new things and even a good attention span. Some of that is nature, some of it is nurture.
I look at theory like this. Say you are a carpenter who specializes in making bird houses. You can learn to make bird houses with just a hammer, precut lumber and nails. It may be just as good as your neighbor's who also knows how to use a saw, but if he has uncut lumber he can cut it down to size. Maybe the guy down the street knows how use a power drill. You all may be able to make perfectly good bird houses. They may even be really similar. If the guy next door offers to show you how to use a saw, do you say no? You may decide you don't like saws. The hand saws are too slow, the electric ones are too loud. You prefer precut lumber. There is nothing wrong with that, but at least give the saw and power drill a try. Maybe you'll like them. Maybe you'll like them but won't find any use for them.
I took a little theory years ago. It was hard. I've got a learning disability related to dyslexia. I've overcome a lot of problems it gives me but the grand staff drove me nuts. I just couldn't read that many notes at one time. As I play around with the harmonica some of the theory is coming back. Things like the circle of fifths are really useful, but it's just one way to make the bird house. Try a little theory, and if it doesn't drive you nuts try some more.
I disagree a little with what Congaron said about getting rid of anything you don't like. The harp is for most of us, something we do for fun, but sometimes there are things that are worth learning that you may not enjoy but that will help you enjoy something else more. You can get an idea for that as you go along. If you find theory a little boring but that it improves your playing and you want to improve your playing, weigh the two options. It's all a balancing act.
That said, some people love theory. I don't like learning it but I find it useful. Some people like tinkering with the insides of their harp. Try them. If it works for you you can find whole other ways to connect to your harp.
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Nate
Facebook
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oldwailer
1240 posts
May 07, 2010
7:00 PM
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I think there might be something to the concept that there is "talent." What that talent really is, I believe, simply an ability to see something and work your ass off to get it--and being able to understand that it is within your grasp.
I have had people tell me, back when I played guitar professionally, that they totally envied my talent and wished they could do something that wonderful. Well, what that person is really saying is: "You're just a lucky bastard who happens to be able to do that--I'm not so lucky." That's nothing more than a good excuse for a person to not have to work at anything. They totally invalidate the thousands of hours I spent busting my ass to develop my skills to be able to do what I was doing.
So, talent could be defined as the ability to go for what you want--if it takes learning music theory to get you there--no problem--if you can do it with your ears--no problem--you just go for what you want. . .
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boris_plotnikov
98 posts
May 07, 2010
7:07 PM
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I didn't believe in talant when I was younger, I work hard and I thought that everyone who work hard can be good. I started to teach and I believe in talant now. Some students with no musical background controls and relax their body easily, other are not and we spent triple time more to achieve relatively good tone. Some have nice timing from the very begining and I give them some rhytmic excercises (sincopation, accentuation) during the first moth, other have such poor timing, we have to practice straight eights and 16th with metronome for years. Finally some students can make theirselves to practice and every new lessons get better, other are not.
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http://myspace.com/harmonicaboris
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Joe_L
223 posts
May 07, 2010
9:00 PM
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@Greg - You raise a really good point, but I didn't think you would call me out like that.
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nacoran
1827 posts
May 07, 2010
10:21 PM
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Lol.
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Nate
Facebook
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Harpaholic
72 posts
May 07, 2010
10:36 PM
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Everyone can be great at something with enough practice, but pure natural talent/ability is what separates good players from great players. Just look at any young prodigy.
If you compare a 30 year gigging harp player like Rick Estrin to your average 30 year gigging harp player, why don't we see the same talent/skill/ability? Is it because one practiced more than the other, or is one more muscially talented than the other?
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MichaelAndrewLo
330 posts
May 07, 2010
11:36 PM
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That is the whole point of my 5k project on www.youtube.com/the5kproject I wanted to document the process of learning something through hard work. The only thing there is to do is hard work and talent is just an excuse for those who don't wanna put in their 5000 or 10000 hours. Even with lots of evidence(scientific and anecdotal) that "talent" is irrelevent (even if there was such a thing) in the course of the hard work that must be done to learn something, people will still continue to delude themselves in believing the "talent" myth. Maybe that comes from low self esteem or conditioning of self inhibiting beliefs.
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MichaelAndrewLo
331 posts
May 07, 2010
11:41 PM
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"If you compare a 30 year gigging harp player like Rick Estrin to your average 30 year gigging harp player, why don't we see the same talent/skill/ability? Is it because one practiced more than the other, or is one more muscially talented than the other?"
@ Harpaholic, Yes it all comes down to hard work. Rick Estrin simply worked MUCH harder than the average jammer/weekend gigger. MUCH MUCH harder than one would think. I saw some of his interviews on bluesharmonica.com and that is what it comes down to: he locked himself in an apartment and played nonstop, he left girlfriends, traveled, immersed himself in the field and devoted his entire being. The average harp player simply isn't willing to work that hard or make the sacrifices. I think attributing things to talent actually takes away the respect and amazingness of the hard work that great players put in.
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Ant138
438 posts
May 08, 2010
12:41 AM
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Hey Kyzer, i know how you feel. I get very confused with music theory very quickly. I've tried to ignore it but it doesn't go away. I mainly play by ear, steal bits from other videos etc..
What i have learnt is that by chipping away at it bit by bit i will eventually get to know what i am doing. I have only just figured out 3rd position, so its gona take a while.
Iv'e had a week off work with no wife at home so i decided i was gona hit the woodshed hard. I subscribed to Dave Baretts web site(No i will never leave this forum in favor of another. MBH feels like home) and set off to learn something new only to discover his lessons are all tongue blocked. I have spent the week trying to figure out this method, and its not come easy, i feel like a rank beginer again:(
I've basically realised its going to take me years to figure out the things i want to learn but i know every frustrated minute i spend in the woodshed will pay off eventually.
Keep the faith Kyzer, your a good player.
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Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 12:44 AM
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Chinaski
82 posts
May 08, 2010
12:46 AM
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@oldwailer - I think that's a great point about some people invalidating the sheer amount of hours you need to put in to hone good musical skills.
I've had similar experience (as I'm sure many of us have) where a person has seemed to suggest that there is some kind of secret or short cut that will allow you to play well.
This often especially applies to the harp, which many assume must be somehow easier/quicker to learn than a 'proper' instrument. My stock response to those kind of questions is pretty much always along the lines of: 'Like anything else - practice.'
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Myspace
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 12:48 AM
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Rubes
7 posts
May 08, 2010
3:13 AM
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Great thread we all must have feelings about this one! Personally I fit into the "play by ear " category, but now use the net as a kind of catch up course on all things theoretical. Sure, a lot of it just dumbfounds initially, but eventually I read something that rings a bell (or blows a reed!). As you dig deeper into this wonderful resource, the cross selection of ability/technique/experience and style starts to rub off a bit and each night I go to bed with something new to think about. Just (keep on) going for it mate and keep learning till the day you die.....!
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 3:13 AM
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phogi
414 posts
May 08, 2010
6:29 AM
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Believing in talent is counterproductive. Crack those books. Everything I learned from the traditional pedagogy of music has been time well spent, and has payed off in dividends. Buddah is right though, traditional ways focus on notes first, which is limiting, so don't get trapped into thinking only of notes.
Also, most of the 'just feel it' crowd has been at it for a very, very long time, and have had a long time to figure out what works. You might not want to wait ten years to figure out what works.
Learning theory is easier if you have access to a piano (or keyboard) and a quick knowledge of which notes are which (on piano and harp)
I will say that I've known folks who put in WAY more than 10,000 hours. SOME of them went on to great success. Time alone is not everything.
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Heart2Harp
42 posts
May 08, 2010
6:54 AM
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I am 100% on the talent issue of this debate. Let me clarify my position though:
1) I don't believe in specific innate abilities (e.g. he was born to play tennis, draw, paint, play harp, etc). I do, however, believe that people can be born with a general predisposition for some types of activities (music, visual art, athletics, etc).
2) I don't think you ABSOLUTELY need this ''predisposition'' to sound good. It is not a necessary condition for sounding good. But it sure makes it a lot easier and likely. I think I was lucky enough to inherit such a genetic makeup that predisposes me towards creativity and music (Thanks Mom!). I don't want to sound cocky but music is just completely clear in my head. I have the exact opposite experience for anything related to mathematics and numbers...everything becomes fuzzy and I can't think! My point is that this predisposition for music really makes a big difference when you practice.
3) I think we sould also talk about ''obsession''. I think it's different than ''practice'' and ''experience''. Obsession is what makes me reach for the harp the second I have free time on my hands. It's what makes me reach for it even when I should be working on my thesis. I am obsessed. Notice, though, that there is a down side to this obsession as it can drive other people crazy!
4)On a finale note, here's something strange about the concept of ''talent''. It's always presented as this type of false dichotomy: You either have ''talent'' or you don't. I suspect that such innate predispositions (towards music for example) are distributed on a continuum. This means you can have varying degrees of talent (little talent, some talent, quite an amount of talent and, at the last tevel, you're like Mozart)
Mathieu
PS: those of you who say talent is not important and it's all about hard work: Perhaps you underestimated the contribution of your natural abilities to your present level of musical skills. Often, people who have talent see their abilities as perfectly normal (they don't know they are that talented compared to others until it becomes evident) and have a hard time understanding how someone else can find it difficult to do what they manage to do with such ease.
Heart2Harp
Heart2Harp
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 8:02 AM
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MichaelAndrewLo
332 posts
May 08, 2010
8:30 AM
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@ heart2harp, All I know is that I sucked at music when I started playing clarinet at age 9. During that first year of playing, I didn't get anything, I didn't even qualify for a band! ALLL my classmates got into the honor band even, I was maybe 1 of 3 who had to take a recess instead. I was horrrrible. But you know what, that made me work even harder. It fueled the fire. And after age 11 I was always first chair and left all my classmates in the dust. Those same kids who were in the "honor" band later dropped out when they hit the inevitable wall. I was simply willing to do the work. Even now, I haven't improved my harp playing at all for the past 2 weeks because I have NOT put in the hard concentrated effort of listening and critiquing to improve. Most people just jam and float along "playing". There is a huge difference between focused practice and playing. Most people know the difference, it's just not pleasant focusing while practicing so most don't do it.
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barbequebob
798 posts
May 08, 2010
9:29 AM
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Over the years, I've met tons of people who had some talent but often didn't advance much because they were not willing to do ANY and ALL of the hard work necessary to further advance what they were doing and so often times, people with much lesser talent who did put in all of the necessary hard work and more would often go a lot further.
You have to be at least border line obsessed and driven to want to MAKE IT HAPPEN because the so called "it just came easy" only gets you so far, often just marginally at best.
In the learning curve, at some point, you always are going to hit a wall AKA plateau, but it is how you manage to get yourself through it often seperates those who truly go beyond it or just fold their tent and then be content to crawl and hide somewhere blaming everyone but their single, worst enemy, and that enemy is the person they see in the mirror, and that's THEMSELVES.
Someone who wants to get better, for every time they get "knocked down," they NEVER let that stop them at all and those that are just merely satisfy allows that attitude to defeat them.
I've gone through that and worked my ass off to get to what I'm able to do.
There's no question a certain amount of talent is needed to start with, but too often those that just want to get by on that and are too lazy to put in ANY AND ALL of the NECESSARY work needed to advance just don't get anywhere compared to some with either very minimal or none but who aren't afraid to do the hard work AKA get their freaking hands dirty in order to get there.
A big part of the work necessary is to CONSTANTLY experiment and NEVER let the possibility of making a complete idiot out of yourself in the process stop you because if you're afraid to look bad, stupid, or whatever, you never learn ANYTHING and this isn't just for playing music, as it applies to damned near anything in life.
BTW, as far as Big Walter is concerned, he was very barely literate, and so I doubt he knew much about theory, but judging from some of the things LW did, I would guess he had a better handle on it, but still maybe not like a jazz or classical guy.
When I started taking up harp, I didn't know theory, but I MADE THE EFFORT to learn it on my own and it has helped me enormously and allowed me to work my way out of mistakes in a way that those who don't learn it will get badly exposed, often looking like a deer in the headlights, and earning a far greater amount of respect from musicians who play other instruments, thus making me able to adjust to a lot more things than most harp players are generally able to do without freaking out.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 9:33 AM
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Buddha
1749 posts
May 08, 2010
9:44 AM
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I don't believe in talent. I think it's a label that people give to others as a way to define why people can do things better than others. It's just a label and doesn't really exist.
I do believe that "talent" is nothing more than the person's ability to be connected with or open to cosmic consciousness. EVERYBODY HAS EQUAL ABILITY IN REGARDS TO BEING CONNECTED.
When we learn something, we develop pathways for information and as the amount of pathways increases so does ability and thus the illusion of talented is heightened.
Without saying too much of what I really think, people in general are conditioned to remain in a state of placid control, they are conditioned to not go against the grain, just get along, do your job and don't have independent thought, and you are conditioned to fear anything that is outside of "normal". In short, you have been programmed, your mind is controlled and you are really nothing more than a slave. (We can talk about this topic at another time)
How do you break free from the shackles? To start, don't do stuff that pollutes your mind, ie watching TV. Stay away from things that contain fluoride, chlorine and alcohol.
Think about it. How many times have you heard or even reminisced yourself about the innocence of childhood? Children often say some very profound things and they seem to know things right? That's because they are connected but as they grow they become part of the system and are conditioned not to be connected to the universe. They are taught not to listen to themselves. They are taught their imaginary friend is something that isn't good etc...
Reclaim your childhood innocence. You need to get your mind and body back to that state where you are open to the vibrations and energy that surround us. This is very much like the "force" from Star Wars. Once you are reconnected to all that is, then you have to do the work that allows your pathways to develop to allow manifestation of your thoughts.
It doesn't take long to find way to get yourself submersed into whatever you enjoy. Think about how you learned to speak. You heard everybody speak to you for hours a day every day and you eventually picked it up. The pathways were created in your head first and then eventually you, as a baby learned to mimic the sounds. Then you expanded your repertoire from that point to where you are today. And even today, we tend to label as smarter than we are based on their command of language. Just because they use alternate definitions and "big" words doesn't mean they are smarter. It means they put more work into their command of the language than you did. Are they more talented? Did they have a natural aptitude to read book better than you? Are they smarter? NO they simply worked harder.
Music is the same way. You can't just pick up an instrument and play it. You have to be open, you have to listen to all that is around you. You have to hear the sound in your head. Then you have to figure out where all of the sounds are on your instrument and then you have to connect the sounds you hear in your head or elsewhere and channel them through the instrument. This doesn't take talent, it takes work.
Like reading a book, when you see a word, you also HEAR that word in your head at that point you can choose to vocalize the word or not. Its the same with music, you have to find a way to hear what you are playing first and then play it.
Talent simply doesn't exist. If you don't believe me then meditate for awhile and the answers will come to you as will the music. And, if you're technical ability is together you will be able to play what you hear.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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Tin Lizzie
47 posts
May 08, 2010
10:23 AM
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I think this is the best thing I've read about talent versus work.
http://www.guitarprinciples.com/GettingBetter/natural_talent.html
An excerpt:
As I began teaching, I got the opportunity to see large numbers of people attempting to learn to play, and I started to really investigate this idea of natural talent. Was there such a thing, and what were the reasons some people got really good, and others did not. I saw many people grapple with the challenges of learning to play, and I realized that yes, I do have some natural talent, because many of these people were having such a harder time than I did. But I also noticed another interesting thing. A very good percentage of the people I was teaching seemed to have at least as much talent as I did. Some maybe more. But very few had the burning desire I had. Very few were practicing the number of hours I did, even from the beginning. Very few seemed to have the almost desperate need in their life for this thing we call playing the guitar.
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Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 10:57 AM
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waltertore
521 posts
May 08, 2010
10:34 AM
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Buddha: Good stuff! I agree with you on this and would add that the more one is draw to something, the better they are at it. This may be the true definition of talent- the more one is drawn to something, the more "talent" they exhibit. Bob said something similar with having to be obsessive. Nobody gets great by not being obsessive. I read michael jordans parents had to physically drag him home at way past dark everynight from the courts. He lived on them. It has to be a lifestyle to reach the level of being called "one with talent". Most of society likes to forget that lifestyle part.
I pretty much do life this way. this is why I don't learn music- simply because it doesn't attract me. I just wander the universe and let it unfold with my music and painting. Call me musically whatever, but the bottom line is I enjoy what I do. Real art is something you can't control because it is based on not controlling it,but letting it control you. You have to walk blindly to become a master. Most people simply won't do this. that is fine, but don't try and fool yourself into thinking there is an easy way around this cornerstone in getting there . I learned to play all these instruments at once via just having fun. Never did I sit down and try to get a certain thing. It came in its own time. If we let our heart guide us, the music will always come at a satifying pace. Heck, if doing overblows grabs me, I will be on it 24/7. Until then, my simple little grooves are as exciting and new to me as Buddha's musically complex stuff is to him. Life is short - Dream Big! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 10:51 AM
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nacoran
1828 posts
May 08, 2010
10:39 AM
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Ok, let me try to explain talent in a kind of extreme way. Imagine someone with extreme mental development issues, maybe to the point where they can't even talk and control their actions. Does that person, even if they played the harmonica every day for hours, have the potential to become a great harmonica player?
The thing is most people fall somewhere on a continuum. There are people who get some good genes. There are people who get some bad genes. When I was a kid I was diagnosed with a learning disability. On some tasks I scored well above average. On one set of tasks, the matching section, where you match little symbols from one part of the page to their counterparts on another part of the page I scored 80 points below average. With years of hard work I've gotten better at those sorts of tasks, actually into the low section of average. I took lots of hard work. I will never be really good at it, even although I worked hard enough to erase most of an 80 point deficit. I had no talent for it. If I'd started 40 points below average I might have gotten good at it. If I'd started at average on it and still felt the need to spend all that time working on it I could have been phenomenal.
Most people start close to where everyone else does. That means that if they put in the work they can get pretty good at something. They may have to put in more work than someone who happens to start off with more talent. If you are lucky to have talent, that's great. If you aren't, that you can work really hard and get good.
If you happen to have talent AND work really hard at something AND have a good place to learn, well that's when you get Yo Yo Ma. I had a piano teacher who spent 6 hours practicing piano every day. She was good, but she's never played Carnegie Hall.
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Nate
Facebook
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Tuckster
509 posts
May 08, 2010
10:47 AM
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I think some people are born with more inherent talent than others. This story comes to mind: Masten Gregory,a great race car driver, was trying to sort out a new race car. He spent all day on the track,and no matter what he did,he could not get a competitive lap time. Late in the day,his teammate and friend,Stirling Moss,stops by. Masten asks him to take the car out and see if he can tell him what's wrong. Stirling goes out and after 1 warmup lap,hammers into it. On the very next lap,he takes 1.5 seconds off Masten's best time and close to a class track record! Masten was no slouch in a race car. He knew Stirl was a once in a decade talent.
While talent is no guarantee of success,it certainly gives you a leg up.Those who are blessed with inherent talent AND a willingness to put in the hard work are destined to rise to the top. All of Adam's top 10,Im sure.
But I still totally agree with what Buddah just said,except for the "no such thing as talent" part.
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Joch230
126 posts
May 08, 2010
11:01 AM
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There may be some people on this forum who are...let's call them "Rain Man Harp Players". Like the Rain Man movie where the guy could calculate dates, number etc in his head faster than a computer, they can visualize all the different scales, positions, etc on each key of harp. They can review something and retain it. But other parts of their brain aren't as well developed. Maybe they have trouble interacting with people or are introverted. I still think a lot of this is still how you are wired.
There is a saying in sports that hard work beats talent that doesn't work hard. But someone who has both...then you have something special.
John
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Heart2Harp
45 posts
May 08, 2010
11:04 AM
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@MichaelAndrewLo:
the situation you write about is very interesting. I'm not denying the hard work you put into clarinet. I suspect it had an enormous effect on your playing.
I just want to point out that your story could also be interpreted to support the idea that a natural predisposition (for music, let's say) doesn't have to be there from the moment of your birth. Some genes (or complex of genetic processes) only ''switch on'' once a certain level of physiological maturity has been reached (i.e with increasing age). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is a ''Clarinet Gene'' or a ''Blues Harmonica Gene''. Ultimately, your skill are a combination of the time you put into practicing AND your biological makeup.
My main point is:
Having a natural predisposition towards music makes practice a whole lot more efficient. You get more bang for your buck. I'm not saying you can't get anywhere without it, I'm just saying it takes more effort.
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Heart2Harp
Heart2Harp
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Joch230
127 posts
May 08, 2010
12:49 PM
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I'll put this as logically as I can.
Not everyone can throw a 98 mph fastball.
You can't teach speed (running).
No matter how much you practice, not everyone could play harp as well as Buddha.
Talent/gifts exist.
You can choose to stand out on the freeway and believe the truck coming at you doesn't exist...but it's still going to run you over.
Talent/gifts exist.
John
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Buddha
1750 posts
May 08, 2010
12:54 PM
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joch
your mind limits you.
harmonica is not the only thing I excel at. I don't believe I am super human in anyway, but I do believe that I work harder and focus more intensely than most. It's a learned trait not something I was born with.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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Greg Heumann
439 posts
May 08, 2010
1:08 PM
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Chris, there's nothing wrong with focus and hard work - they are required of most of us. But they are not 100% sufficient. You must have the "innate ability" too. People are different. Some more left-brained, some more right-brained. Some who can think spatially and some who cannot. It isn't always related to intelligence.
At the extremes you have the "idiot-savant" types (like Rainman) who can barely function but have amazing gifts in some specific area, like hearing a Mozart concerto once and then sitting down at the piano and playing it note for note. WITHOUT lessons. Without practice. Without "work" and "focus" as you probably define them.
There is no doubt that MOST people have SOME innate ability - and depending on how much they have, learning (the work and focus part) will come more easily or with more trouble for them. So again - work and focus are admirable, necessary skills for most of us. But to believe that "anybody can do it" just doesn't square with my reality.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Buddha
1751 posts
May 08, 2010
1:27 PM
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Greg,
I understand what you are saying. I'm telling you, there is no innate ability for anything - that's the simple beauty of this life, we can all do whatever as long as we believe it. It's all about focus and intentional manifestation. What you are saying about "innate ability" is nothing more than an excuse for why a person can't excel at a given subject. Your thought process is part of the "system", part of the mind control other have over you. There are people who control things on this planet and they do not want you to believe you have your own power to manifest.
Don't take this as a challenge or anything other than a discussion. I guarantee you, that if you gave me an outline of what you do. In a couple of years or so, I would be at the same level as you or beyond. Right now I don't have a clue what you do, how you do it but I would know how to do it in short order because of the effort and focus I would put into doing it. This is no special ability, it's simply focusing at the task at hand.
I have a certain way of doing things that allow me to excel at everything I do. The first thing I so is figure out purpose, goals, the typical method, alternate methods, tools needed and then I deconstruct everything and do it my own way, a way that works for me. I have often found the the typical way of doing this is highly inefficient if not flat out wrong.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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Joch230
128 posts
May 08, 2010
1:32 PM
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Buddha
Whether your mind lets you accept it or not, you could be a poster child for an example of how talent and hard work together have produced very positive results. To be as good as you were as a teenager supports this truth.
John
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MP
228 posts
May 08, 2010
2:13 PM
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guitarist carlos montoya could not read music; his wife wrote out his compositions for him.
jazz trumpet player chet baker could not read music. no less a musician than herbie hancock claimed "i realized the genius of chet baker".
i agree with most of buddhas post except for the talent thingy. it is very 'new age' to believe 'anyone' can achieve anything they set their minds to. that is just ridiculous. people fail,people succeed, we are all different. if it were true,i could kick buddhas ass six ways to sunday on harp. reality shows that he kicks my total ass.
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Buddha
1752 posts
May 08, 2010
2:21 PM
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to be as good as I was only supports the fact that I was completely obsessed with music and the harmonica couple with hard work.
I find it funny that I tell all of you guys that you can do anything you focus on and you fight me on it. The only difference between me and you is I am aware of the control agenda society has placed on all of us.
I remember when I started to go to the harmonica club, I was a beginning player, couldn't even play single notes. One of the members asked what my goal for the harmonica was. I said "to be known as one of the best harmonica players in the world." He laughed at me and told me that is wasn't something I could decide. I told him to "mark my words that I would someday be one of the best." He laughed at me again "Youngster, I wish you will" He patted me on the head and started talking to somebody else.
You really can do anything you set your mind to do. I did and continue to do it everyday.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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waltertore
526 posts
May 08, 2010
2:23 PM
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I post on the net while my songs are transfering from waves to mp3's and then to soundclick. I did this one about talent. Walter
Is this what talent is?
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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Joch230
129 posts
May 08, 2010
2:43 PM
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Buddha. Obviously music isn't your only talent. You are methodical, a goal setter and talented in devising good stategies to apply yourself to learn a given skill.
But to believe that all that you are good at, all your skills, talents, and gifts are a result of your own efforts only... MP hit it right on the head...that's a bit too New Worldish for me. Kind of being the God of your own universe.
I agree with the majority of what you say but we may never agree on this.
John
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Buddha
1753 posts
May 08, 2010
2:51 PM
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John,
to put it simply, you view is why you will most likely always be "average".
Being average or great is a choice.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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earlounge
49 posts
May 08, 2010
2:51 PM
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I believe some lucky few have natural talent, but since I have very little I agree with Buddha about hard work.
IMHO street smarts are just as important as book smarts. Schooled musicians that don't have experience are just as bad as self taught beginners.
From my experience most musicians right out of Berklee, New School, or Juliard just can't improv. They only feel comfortable playing a song or standard.
Moral of the story is experience teaches you to listen, follow others, blend and balance, play the room, play the audience. These things can't be taught.
On the other hand you better know your sh!t when a band leader throws some theory at you. Learn your craft, then experience will come.
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Joch230
130 posts
May 08, 2010
3:28 PM
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Wow. So my opinion makes me average now! LOL
Let's just say I have my priorities as to what items I am currently great at!
I am a great father.
I am great at my job.
I am a great gardener and have a Japanese garden.
I have a Commercial Art degree and can paint up a storm.
Some would say that I was a great guitar player before the Fibromyalga hit.
I have great faith. Etc.Etc Etc.
There is a mixture of hard work and gifts or talent involved in all of the above.
John
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