I promised myself I wouldn't get back into this but...
If you take the stance of Science as an explanation for everything, then you have a very very small view of the truth.
Einstein did not assume that Newtonian physics was the hard edge of science. Sure it explained a great deal, but it was science's best fit at the time. It took intuition to imagine beyond the bounds of the applied scientific method. The theoretical only lies in the imagination. Some things can't be witnessed, it is just not possible by whatever current means.
You are denying the qualitative observations and intuition of many folks on this forum to beat the drum of the quantitative. We perfectly understand what you are saying scientifically. We are saying that we have observation and intuition that there is something else - something more.
Why would you be so dogmatic and rigid not to explore our points as well? Is music nothing but mechanics to you, or do you use your intuition too?
i think god was invented before the department of education and mass media. check out 'the golden bough' by frazier. he is the predecessor of joseph campbell. BTW, campbell was a practicing catholic. frazier, an aetheist.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 8:07 PM
Millions of people eat at the olive garden. That doesn't make it good food.
Kyzer, where is the evidence of someone doing in 1500 hours what I will do in 5000? That is why I like science: because it doesn't revolve on peoples weak surface opinions and explanations. I understand most people don't care for science or facts so I already knew the brick walls of delusion would be raised.
@ Kingobad I also deny the claim that billions of people make that there is a god. If there was one true god that god would be apparent above all else and his book would be holier and people would certainly align with that god and there would only be one god. But there isn't, and gods have changed over the course of time as peoples opinions of him (or her) have changed. If there is something else or something more then it would be apparent. You and kyzer are talking about your observations: well so am I! I KNOW I have no talent and that was the WHOLE point of my project. The show step by step that I improve without a natural inclination, that the more I practice the better I get. I KNOW this for a fact, and science backs me up. I played drums and got good, then started getting sloppy and just "playing". I then started to suck IMO. Most people never learn how to practice. I learned the hard way how to practice and that was in no way a talent. I have done many experiments on my own self to prove this. I became a chess expert by following a strict regimen of solving chess puzzles and attending tournaments. I have statistical evidence based on my own qualitative observations and intuitions that I improve through my own hard work: my chess rating went higher and higher. Same for nursing: I get a 4.0 because I worked hard for my grades. I become an excellent nurse through constant self reflection and hard work. These are the facts as I see them and I thought I'd share but many people here are too hard headed to open their eyes. I've studied this stuff for years and noticed it to be true.
I will concede that there are genetic physical predispositions for physical agility, intelligence, etc. Can't deny those facts. But "innate abilities" or "musical talent" which translates into someone progressing quicker and becoming greater? It just doesn't stand up.
Actually god WAS the mass media. The mass media has taken over for god now as in: We watch "IT" (the mass media being a new big brother/god) instead of "IT" (god) watching us. Facebook, myspace, etc. We all report ourselves what we are doing based off our conditioning to conform. If we were truly free and rid ourselves of any conditioning (based off an old prussian model for social conditioning) we would not be on these forums or the internet reporting or updating our "status". Look up John Gatto's "the underground history of american education". Great book.
If you are going to be intellectually honest, you should be agnostic, not atheist.
I am not going to rumble on a metaphysical level because we will all be wasting our time.
If you want to turn this into a stink hole by all means go there, I wont. I think we will all be edging on the boundaries of decorum for this forum anyway if we go down that path.
I think it's been very interesting. Opinions abound. It would be one boring world if we all agreed all the time. I have mine which is more in line with the masses (brainwashed?) but I'm comfortable in my skin. By the way, I can do anything.... except see a damn thing without my birth control glasses (20/200+ vision) ---------- Rob
well, isnt that the pot calling the kettle black...
you gotta admit, the back and forth is reaching the wow levels... and its all to no avail. thats the amazing part... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
MAL: "If you really analyze and search for the truth you will find. dig deeper, don't simply attribute what you don't understand to talent. Malcolm Gladwell covers this stuff in his book."
I think that was where you cited Gladwell. It's become obvious to me that rational discussion with you is impossible. Hey if you want to believe that there is no such thing as talent, knock yourself out.
It's not a bad belief, I mean it will make you work hard, right?...because that's all that's standing between you and immortality.
Who knew that all that stood between Einstein and the special and general theories of relativity, were a couple of grad students who didn't work quite as hard or as smart as Albert?
It speaks volumes to me that a simple post about mechanical and theoretical interest in the harmonica can degenerate into unsolicited attacks on the core beliefs of people sitting innocently on the sideline believing in both talent and God, as the giver of talent.
All of this is being pushed in the name of self proclaimed super-perfect analytical logic, internet research (phooey) and arrogantly self-proclaimed, flawless scientific mind.
What arrogance.
No wrist slapping from the site owner. Plenty of offensive nonsense being fired back and forth, mostly at the OP who just wanted to learn more. Now a direct attack on belief in God.
The harmonica and those who love it more than anything else in life is simply not important enough for me to keep this place as a favorite. The behavior here is shameful, and embarrassing. I am personally ashamed to have come back to this thread, but i won't again. I am a God-fearing Christian. I don't offend easily, but this thread has done it.
As you keep skipping from activity to activity losing interest and proving your ability to do everything as well as everybody (in your own mind's eye), maybe you will eventually land on some truth that sticks. Then you won't have to argue pointlessly, hoping to win an internet forum argument.
Here is my sacrifice. I love the harmonica and information about it and the gear and techniques. I used to love coming here. I give that up, as much as i enjoyed it. I will pursue my talent growth on my own. Thanks to the civil folks who have helped me. There are other places...I will see you there.
Adam, when you find this, remove me from the board. I do stand for something and don't like who i become when i come here. I accept and admit my own role in that.
Attitudes are contagious, and mob mentality is also a proven fact. This place puts me in a bad mood. I'm out.
your frustrations are valid congaron (should you read this) im the one who brought god into this. i think. but it was retort to scientific facts being the end all. its just my opinion that it is not. perhaps it is, but hasnt been explored deep enough to explain all the unanswered variables like talent...im just as much to blame for the direction this thread has gone, and how it deviates from the original point of wanting to become more well rounded NOT playing the harp.
i welcome any and all advice on how to get better in this area. Buddha has suggested reading material that i should get in the mail on monday. and i will be picking the brains of plenty who are in the know at HCH. i have never thought i was the best. very good, yes, but i would be stupid to say that there arent better artists younger and less experienced than myself. i already stated proof of this in an earlier post. thats the point i really wanted to make...
sorry to see you go over this. i dont like it one bit. My name is Adam Marsh. I think i may have you on my facebook page. if so, please contact me off the forum.
let's let this one die huh? weve all said what we cared to say...6 pages is enough... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 9:28 PM
I like to have a good analytical discussion once in awhile about talent and other things. If posters going on this forum are easily offended they should refrain from opening a post that is in the format of "This VS this". I'm still open to logical and scientific presentations for talent. Nobody presented one. And Kingobad, I would for sure believe in a god if there was evidence of one other than a book of fairy tales and hope/faith. Same goes for talent.
The site owner is quite willing to wrist-slap when the situation calls for it, trust me. The site owner has insomnia this evening/morning--not for the first time--and wakes to find an email from congaron requesting that he be removed from board membership, which confuses the site-owner, since he doesn't actually follow every twist and turn of every thread.
So the site owner goes looking for the offending thread/post. I figure the thread with 288 posts is probably the one.
Sure enough.
Here's the problem: although I do indeed see, in several posts on this page, a direct attack on a specific belief--the belief in God--that is indeed the core belief of some members of this board, I don't see a direct PERSONAL attack on congaron for possessing that core belief.
If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.
I haven't rechecked the forum creed, but if memory serves, it simply asks you to refrain from direct personal attacks, and "personal" means things like "You're an idiot," or "You're an idiot for believing in the validity of traditional blues harp," or "You're an idiot for saying that Kim Wilson has been caught in a retro trap, since you obviously don't know about his third-position work of the past decade."
Or: "You're an idiot for believing in God."
Those all constitute personal attacks, and the forum creed prohibits them.
Congaron is indeed correct that this thread contains many breaches of the forum creed. You guys, most of you, are frothing at the mouth, waving your arms, and threatening to tear the HTML code right off the page.
On the other hand, it's clear from this thread that we've also got a brimful, full-on battle of the wits that really isn't all that different from a Kansas City jam session circa the 1930s. Any siteowner would have to be filled with a combination of terror, pity, and awe at the tragicomedy that is this thread.
Note to Germanharpist: please permalink this thread and put it under the category of "crazed debate."
Look, y'all: you didn't want to lose Waltertore or Buddha at earlier moments when they said "I quit," and I contacted them offline and asked them as a personal favor to come back. They came back. You know that you are happy to have them as a part of this community.
I would like you, as a personal favor to me, to refrain from attacks on God on this website.
I speak as the former water-boy for Mr. Satan, but also as a former member of the Interfaith Fellowship in Manhattan. Those two lines on my CV make me the only harp player you know who could possibly lasso the F5 twister that is this forum and keep it even moderately civil for this long.
Open plea to congaron: we value your contributions. Please reconsider.
Open plea to the members of the forum who have contributed to this thread: please try to make slightly more nice, if you would. And please be advised that although wonderful creative energy is released when epic threads head into There-is-a-God-Land and There's-No-God-Land, it's probably better in the long run to leave that stuff at the door.
The forum creed, admittedly, currently says nothing about God, faith, belief, etc. I may have to rewrite it.
Anyway, help me out.
AG, 5:03 AM CST
Last Edited by on May 14, 2010 3:06 AM
Talent exists. Its useful to ignore this fact. ESPECIALLY if you are talented. I encourage all musicians to ignore talent. To have talent over your head is like IQ. If your IQ is high, and you are not a high achiever, you might beat yourself up over it. If your IQ is low, you may resign, give up pursuing success. Better to ignore IQ and just grind away.
MAL,
I've seen 'scientific facts' proven wrong all over the place. Even in the realm of math and physics, thinkers do not just look for the truth. They also look for beauty and usefulness. Check out "Emblems of Mind," a book about relationships between math and music. Don't put all your carts in science. For example,
If your wife ever has invasive ductal carcinoma, and her doctor says, "OK, this drug will most likely have long term, permenant side effects, but studies show that it is effective against this type of cancer." Then they inject her with it for several months (at $10,000 per injection), causing all kinds of side effects that will never go away. Then wait a few months, and the studies start pouring out, saying that taxol is not effective (actually, does nothing) against invasive ductal carcinoma. In other words, they shot her up with deadly poison for NO effect.
Then ask yourself about how much faith you have in what people say just because they used the scientific method in their studies.
That's what I think of every time somebody tell me they are right because 'science' tells them so. Why? Because this scenario is exactly what happened to my wife. Just because a researcher claims something, even a really good researcher, that does not mean it is true.
Most researchers are also the first to admit this. The truth is an elusive, slippery bitch.
offending thread/post. I figure the thread with 288 posts is probably the one.
Sure enough.
and even more odd is the fact that very few of the 288 posts offered up any useful info about the original thought from the post, on how i might go about learning it from the ground up. sure i could try to figure it out with no input, but one of the reasons i come here is because im assured to find some folks here who can help me out with their real life experience and knowhow.
but.. its apparent that it doesnt take much for me to deviate from a point either.. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
from another recent thread: what the forum needs is phpbb3 or vbulletin at least...(a chat room) i agree. bobo, i think that your posts on this thread, especially, have been poignant and you have done a far better job explaining you point of view than i could. in other words, i better find you and your ability to express your opinion as you have here, on other just as heated threads, when it calls for it... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Personally, I consider civilized discourse and freedom of opinion to be sacred.
Like an idiot, I managed to scroll back through this thread from beginning to 'end'. And, while I saw some spikes of heated opinion, I really can't say I saw any personal attacks on anything other than someone's view point.
However, from a purely anecdotally personal view, it has been my observation that comments regarding religious views are invariably considered personal attacks by folks with strong beliefs. In other words, any doubt or question of my God (or how I view my God) is an attack on me, since my relationship with my God is so passionate that it is a defining component of my being and self.
Some people react by turning the other cheek, taking their toys and going home, and some people get angry and declare fatwa and decide the offending opinionater deserves death.
Like others above me on this thread, I am sorry to see difference of opinion cause anyone to exercise the option of departure. But, I understand it.
And if said core beliefs are so strong what was said offendee so shaken?
Look at how strong MAL stood against all of you guys and it wasn't even about a controversial subject. He wasn't shaken and still isn't shaken because he core beliefs are so strong.
When people run off it's because they need to rethink things.
Personally, if my minions were so weak, I would smite them before dawn.
----------
"There are said to be pleasures in madness, known only to madmen."
I think you miss the very nature of both sides of the argument. MAL is arguing from a point of which he sees science leading him - a very objective point of view.
I, like MAL, enjoy the argument. I wish we could do it in person over a beer or two because I think it would be interesting, fun , and probably resolved much more quickly than a harmonica forum.
The other side is coming from a faith perspective that is outside the realm of what the objective side of things can relate - other that perhaps a direct observation of a creation. It is a personal relationship and part of their very identity.
Challenging those beliefs is a good thing. Disregarding them as foolishness and absurdity is just plain disrespectful, insulting, and has no place in a decent argument. Just because you can shout NO and add some snide remarks afterward to the foolishness of others' beliefs, doesn't forward your side of the argument. It just shuts it down.
To pursue this metaphysical argument is pointless. Both sides are at a stand still, and your side obviously is unwilling to entertain the beliefs of the other.
I really like to hear your perspective, just not at the expense of everyone else's.
Why is it necessary to convince others of your beliefs?
In a -VS- thread it is only necessary to state your opinion on the subject. If someone’s "facts" are not correct, then providing evidence against their claims is fair game. Other than that, IMHO further arguments are worthless attempts of trying to sway others to your opinion.
Do you believe in talent, attack dogs, god, or respect for others?
I do not think your stance on these issues will change the world or anyone else’s mind (no matter how strong and unwavering), but I do think the way you present yourself to others will affect your own personal life and/or business dealings.
"your side obviously is unwilling to entertain the beliefs of the other."
not true. The difference, I've done the work, I've done the research vs people who choose to believe they will get better through sheer faith. My faith in all things is in how I hard I work and my open mindedness and that has everything to do with this thread.
When I'm wrong, I'm the first to admit it. We all learn through failure so I welcome being wrong. So far, I am not.
----------
"There are said to be pleasures in madness, known only to madmen."
I have been involved in threads in which core values are attacked and very much enjoyed them, and I think the other side enjoyed them in their own way too. They were, however, threads on sites about core values and religion, not harmonica sites. I sought them out because that is what I was looking for on that occasion. There are days I want a discussion like that. There are days I want to talk about harmonicas and hang out with Christian friends, even although I am not a Christian.
i see valid points in MALs argument. obviously time put in is one of the determining factors in great achievement. i contend that it is not the only factor that is the single most important. ultimately, its probably, likely a very good mixture of both experience AND talent... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Very interesting thread. Lots to agree and disagree with.
Here's my take. Experience, well yes - but what sort of experience? Take for example a player who plays the same limited number of tunes or licks in the same position ie only 1st or 2nd for year after year. Is this player truly experienced? He might be good -but limited.
Another thing I have not seen mentioned but believe that it impacts heavily on both experience and talent is age. I believe that a younger brain will absorb more quickly and learn (become more talented and experienced) in much less time than someone who commences the journey later in life.
