I said ' most likely "average" ', I also said it was YOUR choice to choose such a thing.
You're actually the only one saying that you are average "so, my opinion makes me average." A simple sentence like that, only serves to keep your shackles bound to you.
I've been trying to tell you and everybody else, that you can do anything you set your mind on. Where's your great faith?
I'm happy that you indicate greatness with your list of skills. None of it takes talent as anybody can learn to do the same. Talent does not exist.
and I notice in your list that you don't even mention harmonica.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 3:39 PM
I am late to the conversation, but Buddha is 100% correct on everything he has said (see my overblow lesson comments about work/innate ability).
And you can teach speed, lol. Been there and done that...went from a 5.2 40yd dash to 4.4 by the time I was a senior in college. Worked my @$$ off for it too.
It is all about focus and discipline. Being smart with your time. I've hard the 10,000 reps to mastery, but I think many times a lot of those are wasted reps and that number can be cut down.
Short-winded example, I actually studied harp for a full year before trying to learn and play. It helped immensely...I was gigging in a good band within a year (limited harp work, but a couple a set). By year two I was being featured in a band and starting the band I am currently in. By year 3 I could hold my own with the local blues scene (not saying "superstar", but I could roll with a band).
I put in a lot of time, but I didn't "waste" energy and tried to be well versed - which is just how I am...I have a Master's in Education and am wrapping up a Ed Leadership Specialist's degree...I like studying. ;) ----------
interesting what BUDDHA said about "being known as one of the best harmonica players in the world".
that was and has been my goal for almost 40 years. i'm no slouch. i'm not average. i think that if you set lofty-some would say unattainable goals, you're gonna get really good or pretty good. the caveat is obviously hard, obsessive, single minded work.
some people are touched by genius, attended often, but not always with a tincture of madness.
BUDDHA is one of those dudes. he is too close to himself to recognize his own inate talent. we should all be so blind.
i have to respectfully disagree as well, chris. talent is not on the outside. talent and skill are two very different things. hard work and extreme dedication towards a goal gives one great skill...having an ability to progress quickly, much more quickly than others just as dedicated with brilliant results, is talent. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
@ Buddha and MichaelAndrewLo: Question: My sister has a severe learning disability. She will never be able to fully understand a written text, let alone music. Would you tell her to try harder, connect with the universal consciousness, and so on...or would you accept that she will always be different and learn to meet her ar her own level?
Kyzer, science backs up that there is no talent or "quicker progression". Studies find that "quicker progression" is simply working really really really really hard. Harder than you can imagine. NOBODY gets to be a virtuoso without putting in 10,000 hours. If there WAS such a thing as talent, a virtuoso WOULD be present at 2,000 hours, 5,000 hours. This is not the case. Nobody bypasses those time frames to true world class.
Read for yourself: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.exp.perf.html
@ heart2harp, well she has a LEARNING disability so she won't be able to learn as effectively. Not having "talent" or having "talent" has nothing to do with being disabled. Just think of it like this: Does a french person have a predisposition for learning french? Did I have a predisposition for English? I am terrible at French and good at English, not because of a talent. I have no accent at English! I would in French. This was largely the environment I grew up in and was surrounded with. If I grew up with French and English, I would have learned effortlessly. Barring an physical deformities or mental problems, this applies to most everybody. I think it's interesting to think of having no "talent" as a learning disability. That seems like simple self-limiting beliefs as a learning disability has an underlying pathophysiological process, talent does not. And LARGELY, a learning disability can be developed due to environmental stresses at a young age.
of course there are exceptions but there is always a balance as well. I'm sure that she has profound greatness somewhere within her. I would have to at least see a picture of her.
I adore mentally disabled people, I've never come across one that wasn't surrounded by pure white energy.
I question why you doubt that she has anything to offer in terms of universal connectedness. I haven't seen a picture, but I'd bet she's much more connected than most of the people on this board.
She is your teacher and watches over you in ways you can not yet fathom.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 4:34 PM
"science backs up that there is no talent or "quicker progression". Studies find that "quicker progression" is simply working really really really really hard."
If you are going to make an ad hoc argument like that, you better cite your sources my friend.
If you are going to disagree with Kyser, that is one thing. If you are going to say that "science" and "studies" are on your side, you better bring it with you.
"Anything that takes the enjoyment out of the music, get rid of. If you honestly believe adding book knowledge to your bag of harp tricks will INCREASE your enjoyment, then dig in. If not, there's plenty of enjoyable music sitting in the harp waiting for you to just bring it out."
This is what i wrote. I didn't say get rid of anything you don't like. This doesn't prevent anyone from stepping outside their comfort zone to ADD an ingredient that will ultimately increase the enjoyment of the music. It encourages such behaviour (-If you honestly believe adding book knowledge to your bag of harp tricks will INCREASE your enjoyment, then dig in.)and encourages you to carefully analyze what you are doing within the context of what you want to achieve. If it takes enjoyment out of your music, I'll bet you eventually get rid of it once you figure that out.
I don't "like" practicing scales, but I do them. They increase my enjoyment of the music by helping me familiarize myself with the instrument, making improvisation easier "in the moment." I bet there are people here who don't "like' overblows but practice them daily because they seem like a good idea. Some of those people will master them and some won't. It's up to each individual to keep or pitch what increases or decreases their enjoyment of the music. If enjoying the music isn't any part of the point to your playing, I simply cannot relate to that.
Kyser has clearly stated the importance of learning the theoretical and mechanical minutia for his own desired progression. I say go for it.
I also believe there is natural talent and won't bother to argue for one second with anyone who doesn't. Working with special needs adults makes me think so. With them, it's as plain as night and day. Address their talents and they are amazing. Focus on their weaknesses and they shut off, like throwing a switch.
For most people, the middle ground is much, much larger. Aptitude tests were not developed in the dark in the absence of science. Everybody isn't the same. Suggesting otherwise, in any category (including talent and ability), flies in the face of human reality and all evidence to the contrary, including this forum and this thread.
Nobody is great at everything. Everybody's potential in every category is not the same.
You can never teach someone to sing, unless they are born with the talent. The same with fighting, some people can hit punch hard naturally, some will never hit hard. They can improve with technique and hard work.
Technique and hard work are the key to developing these gifts, but all the practice in the world will not overcome a lack of talent. Much like common sense, it can't be taught.
Some thoughts provoked by some interesting posts (thank you!):
1. What we DO know
(a) no one gets really good at anything without a whole lot of focus and hard work,
(b) the circumstances (biological, social, cultural) within which any given individual pursues his/her goals
(i) present limitations which are not illusory
and
(ii) can vary significantly from person to person,
(c) people will often tend to interpret what they experience in a way that confirms their existing beliefs about the world.
2. What we DON'T know
(a) enough about the predispositions or tabula rasa we're born with and how we develop to say anything conclusive about nature / nurture / innate talent,
(b) enough about human capabilities to make sweeping generalisations along the lines of either
(i) "anyone can do x"
or
(ii) "it takes a special talent to do x."
3. Furthermore...
It seems worth bearing in mind that "talent" seems to reek of value-judgement; i.e. to say that someone is "talented" is to make a value judgement about them and approve of what they do...
@ KingoBad I've seen that article before as well. Of course there are exceptions to EVERY rule. The rule still stands. People can jump off a ten story building and live. Rule still stands: don't jump off a building cause you'll die. There are very rare exceptions where a persons brain is deficient in ALL areas except one, such as the auditory part of the brain, and the plasticity of the brain becomes exceptional. This does not mean that there is such a thing as talent. Or "innate talent in all of us". AND, look at every musical savant and you will see and exceptional early ability to remember sounds and then they are TRAINED. NO savant comes out completely formed with piano technique and playing classical pieces. All have training that play at the virtuoso level. But apart from your exception to the rule, look at the majority: Adam, Jason, Little Walter, Dennis Gruenling, CHARLIE PARKER. None would show mastery within the first 100 hours of play. But each probably had a inner drive and confidence in who they were and what they wanted to sound like. This led to putting in the hard work. "Talent" be damned.
one more note: look at how severely disabled in all areas these boys are outside of their hearing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps0glMxyKMI
Their bodies essentially chose their domain specificity. We all have a choice and can be just as specific. That is a blessing.
Well first off, "savant syndrome" is poorly understood and has not been proven at all. And the savants you see on T.V. have had years and years of lessons from teachers. Just one for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Savage
Matt Savage studied at New England conservatory. Many years of training went into developing those abilities. You must keep in mind, barring any chromosomal abnormalities, we all largely have the exact same brain structures. In a normal human, both sides of brain are connected with the corpus callosum allowing each side to communicate with the other. This leads to us not relying on memory but on our ability to "chunk" and generalize. We can see the whole picture. An autistic/savant may be missing the corpus callosum, or have a malfunctioning one giving them a VERY narrow focused memory. They essentially memorize every little detail. When it comes to auditory memory, this is not musical "talent". They memorize every single sound. Only when the training and hard work and practice comes in is musical ability developed. There are no concert pianist savants that came out of the womb and learned in 1,000 hours what it takes 10,000 hours to learn. Even the quoted "exceptions" to the rule do not hold up to scientific scrutiny. Talent is irrelevant. Not only that, but we ALL have those areas in our brain that we can unlock. Kind like what Buddha was talking aobut, you need to get in touch with it.
MAL, Buddha, I've got to disagree. Learning disabilities are just one end of the spectrum for talent. Like I said before, I added 80 points to my IQ score in an area where my learning disability limited me. That got me all the way up to average. My friends sister can pick up just about any musical instrument and sound like someone who has been playing a few months. Not brilliant, but obviously better than most people. She has almost no musical experience besides just being a fan. If you figure I'm a fairly extreme example (and I was lucky enough to have a mother who specialized in learning disabilities to help me) that still leaves people on the low side who aren't going to get into the genius range, and the low genius range isn't going to be world class, since the people who started out in the genius range who specialize are going to end up even farther up. Practice can probably take someone with average potential to be very good but it won't turn someone with no talent into a virtuoso.
Even the ability to work hard and focus is part of the talent equation. There are tons of people out there with ADD who just can't focus. It's nice and touchy-feely to think that everyone can do something if they put their mind to it but people with learning disabilities, or even just people who are born stupid aren't in some separate section of the bell curve walled off from the rest of the rest of the world. For every person who is really stupid there are a couple of people who are just plain stupid and a few more who are average, then a couple who are bright and maybe one who is a genius.
To play an instrument several skills come into play. If you are tone deaf, you are in trouble. If you have lousy hand coordination it's a set back. If you are tongue tied you may have trouble. If you have ADD you may have trouble. The thing is lot's of these things are just parts of degrees of difference. We draw a line and say 'this is where we call it a disability' but really that line is artificial, so if you agree that there are people who are disabled enough that they will never do something at the top level you have to look at how well someone who is just a little better than them will do.
That doesn't mean that most people can't get pretty good at anything they set their mind to, just that not everyone can get great at everything. ---------- Nate Facebook
"...we all largely have the exact same brain structures...."
They function the same, but all brains are not exactly alike. Our muscles all function the same from person to person, but they are not exactly alike. Some people have more red muscle; some have more white. People have faster matabolisms; some have slower. Some people have longer fingers; some have shorter. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
We are not exact clones of one another. Our bodies are all different in infinate ways. Our brains are part of our bodies.
Excellent post, Nacoran. I was typing while you were posting. I wanted to say some stuff like that, but was too lazy to think of the wording.
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 9:51 PM
Narcoran I concede that there are different intelligence levels. Personally when I took an IQ test in high school I got a score of 148. Now, I am not sure where that came from. I was never particularly bright until I started studying and playing lots and lots of chess. I work very hard to become a chess expert. Harder than anything I've ever done. I will concede that there are different intelligence levels, but I don't even know if that is all genetic, there IS a huge environmental component to intelligence. When it comes to will power, maybe that is the variable: some have it, some don't. But when it comes to being "innately better" at music or in a certain field. That is not back up at all by scientific research and most studies actually disprove that. This debate it getting rather pointless as I feel I'm repeating myself but regardless of what is right or wrong, maybe we can all agree that it doesn't matter what we are born like or with, if you want something, GO after what you want without any compromises or excuses. Regardless if there is talent or not, if you have it or not, say "OK", shut up, and start practicing. That's the only way anybody will self actualize.
Besides the basic disagreement in the logic in whether everyone starts out the same in life and some just work harder to achieve greatness, there is a underlying difference in some of the members theology that is in play between the lines of much of this discussion.
While it isn't alway politically correct to say you believe that some skills or talents may be gifts from God, that's what I believe. I understand that others have different views on this and there is really little chance that anyone is going to change their minds on this matter from reading something in a harmonica forum. But in my book, I give credit for much that I have achieved in life to where I feel credit is due. And it's not giving all the credit to myself.
When someone believes they are the gods of their own universe...and there clearly are folks with this mindset, then there is really an impasse that I don't think we will ever bridge on this forum. We will have to agree to disagree on this one and put it to bed.
Joch, it's funny. I think we are on the same side of this argument but we come to the same idea from different places. I agree that some people have a gift that makes it easier for them to do this or that. I think of that gift as the luck of the genetics sweepstakes, you think of it as part of a divine spark.
I'd like to say again to those people on the other side I'm not trying to downplay the effects of hard work. Without it even talent only gets you to mediocre. But there are people who work really hard and just can't get there. That's why I'm not starting for the Yankees. I don't know how far I'll get with harmonica. I had a little better aptitude for music as a kid than sports, but I got a late start on harp.
I think that basically Chris is full of shit on this subject. (I'm just telling it like it is, therefore I'm not being rude)
But there is one thing that tends to happen - a person can work their cojones off all their life to achieve something, and then someone else can dismiss all that work by saying "oh, you've got talent, that's all it is." Maybe this kind of thing is buzzing in Chris's bonnet, I don't know.
But what I want to know was when we held the vote on who were the best harmonica players in the world. Was Chris's name in the list? Does anyone have a link to the UN body that monitors and records these important issues?
I think it's the old "that guy is really gifted" or "blessed" that you often hear. Many who have busted their asses for years to play well, can resent hearing a layman make it sound as though his musicianship just came from thin air. Rightly so, we all would like recognition for our hard work. My take on it is that there is a combination of factors, talent, creativity, hard work, taste, energy, and so often overlooked, charisma. which to me, means having some degree of charm and a sense of humor. I think you need some combination of all of that to entertain and create memorable music. Maybe I'm full of shit too though? JD
Sense of humour is important. One of my favourite musicians is Lol Coxhill. He's not the world's greatest saxophonist, but he has a great sense of humour (most of the time - when he fancies himself as a serious musician, then I hate him), and I appreciate that. ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 8:18 AM
MAL, i didnt work very very very very very hard to accomplish what i had in certain aspects of my artwork (portraiture for example)... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
drawing is easy. You see it, either in front of you or in your mind's eye and then copy. No work needed. I can draw, paint and all of that other stuff too. It's simple stuff. ;-P
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Here comes another book... Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain... explains the problem of drawing a concept versus drawing what you see. Our culture teaches us to "see" concepts instead of reality. ---------- Tin Lizzie
I entered shows and exhibits with other students from Knoxville to Memphis and took more accolades than anyone else. what is the difference?
its easy for you and me Buddha, but.......... I bet you cant do it like me.........
what dunce calls a dog talented? thats purely what you drill into them... its in their nature to do what man tells them to do. they want to make us happy...thats like calling a grunt out of boot camp talented. wrong. thank the man that beat him into submission and molded him in his image...
I just cant help but entertain the thought that much like art, music is nearly hand in hand with it. I hear it with my ears as clearly as i see anything with my eyes (in my mind or otherwise)... and though im only at a year and a half on the harp, i feel like i have progressed at a pace im content with...until now. and for me. learning the foreign language that is "harp talk" is a major hurdle i will have to jump now or later to satisfy my own creative goals. might as well take the leap sooner than later eh? ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 12:30 PM
JDH, I think there are people who really try at something but they just can't get it. They get just as annoyed at the other side when they say all it takes is hard work.
I've seen the studies on people with autism with savant abilities. The after school specials where the kid can suddenly play piano don't give a very accurate picture. Most of them practice a lot. There are some people who can draw very accurate renditions of things they see with little practice, but if you look at their drawings you won't see art without a lot of work. Their brain is just wired to make a copy.
Buddha, I don't think that first video means what you think it means. The second one is just silly. TV is the opiate of the masses, and there certainly are attempts to increase viewership. This oversimplifies that argument and connects it with mumbo-jumbo junk science. It weakens the argument into silliness. ---------- Nate Facebook
I spoke of how the masses are intentionally brainwashed. I believe that one is the one that talks about it. I have too much worhtless information in my head to remember.
I do know for a fact that subliminal messages are contained in TV advertisements and TV shows. I spent some time working for one of the biggest ad agencies in the world and there wee meeting that discussed such things.
My original point is that you are all conditioned to believe certain things and it shows in many of the responses in this thread. Yours included. Several of us have given you the truth about how things are and yet you fight the truth to remain in your dazed state of reality.
WAKE UP. Be your own person.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 1:00 PM
"I think there are people who really try at something but they just can't get it. They get just as annoyed at the other side when they say all it takes is hard work."
No doubt, true also.
I think there are many among us that will attain great technique and knowledge of theory but never acheive "their goal", because they are lacking some of the other things, like charisma and taste.
/Several of us have given you the truth about how things are and yet you fight the truth to remain in your dazed state of reality./
So the choice here is agree with you or stay brainwashed?
Hmmm...
I'm not sure I like the suppressed premise there...
How about a third option: we recognise (and indeed respect) that there are differing (not to mention independently and thoroughly considered) opinions, beliefs, positions in our wide and wonderful world?
That's not to say that there isn't a whole lot of hideousness going on in the way people are persuaded, coerced and indoctrinated. There is and it makes me profoundly uncomfortable.
HARMONICA CONTENT!
That blues harp should always sound like a Marine Band played through a vintage tube amp, for example, or that anything deviating from what Little Walter did sounds "wrong..."
@JDH / @Ev630
I don't have a TV either.
Now, on the rare occasions I watch TV, I can never quite shake the feeling that pranksters have taken over the studio and it's all spoof shows taking the piss...
