tookatooka
3286 posts
May 08, 2013
11:51 AM
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a lot of them tend to suggest what the melody should be and I find that it's difficult to freestyle with them. Anyone else discover that, and what can be done to counter it?
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harmonicanick
1898 posts
May 08, 2013
11:57 AM
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how do you mean 'tend to suggest'?
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tookatooka
3287 posts
May 08, 2013
12:11 PM
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I mean they seem to point the way and limit the melody that can be played. It's difficult for me to explain properly but I have some backing tracks which I use and each time I do use them, it seems I play the same harp response each time (or something very close to it). I've tried to play in other ways but I keep going back to the melody that the track appears to be dictating to me.
Maybe it's just me?
It would be interesting to see how different players responded to the same track.
Last Edited by tookatooka on May 08, 2013 12:13 PM
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TetonJohn
126 posts
May 08, 2013
12:40 PM
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...is that there is no interplay (musical or energetic) between the players -- what/how you play doesn't affect what/how the backing players play! And that's the real fun. (IMO)
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tookatooka
3288 posts
May 08, 2013
1:18 PM
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True TetonJohn but for me the opportunity to play with others is very limited so unfortunately it's backing tracks for the time being.
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Rick Davis
1785 posts
May 08, 2013
1:27 PM
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tooka, I think that can be said of any piece of music.
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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nacoran
6772 posts
May 08, 2013
1:37 PM
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Well, a backing track will force a chord progression and a rhythm on you. You do have some choices after that. In that great Axis of Awesome 4 chord video they play a lot of melodies over one chord progression though. It's easy to get stuck playing the same intervals all the time though. Maybe a little time just improvising melodies without a backing track would unstick you a bit? I don't know. I get stuck that way to. I actually compose most of my melodies vocally and then transfer them over to harp. A lot of the time it means I don't end up in 12 bar. Another trick that I use, again, based on vocals, is to try to sing a lyric in my head (it doesn't have to be good, I'm not actually saying it out loud) but play to the cadence of the vocal. That gives me a little more variation than the normal rhythms find myself playing.
(You could link a couple tracks and we could see what melodies people could come up with.) :)
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Grey Owl
116 posts
May 08, 2013
1:39 PM
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You might have stumbled on a new BYBO format Tooka. Post a downloadable backing track say a minute or two long and invite players on the forum to post an improv. :)
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My MBH Profile
Grey Owl YouTube
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isaacullah
2430 posts
May 08, 2013
1:50 PM
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To quote Bob Marley: "To the rescue... Here I am!"
Note: 1) I had originally recorded an uploaded these backing tracks with the idea of perhaps doing a BYOB thing with them, but 2) my ukulele playing still sucks so 3) I didn't know if folks would be that into playing along with them for a contest. But I did upload them with the idea they'd be backing tracks, so why not share them, eh? Hope you find them fun to jam to, anyhow! :)
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isaacullah
2431 posts
May 08, 2013
1:54 PM
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Oh yeah, almost forgot:
1) "12 bar blues" = 12 bar shuffle in the key of G.
2) "Doo Wop" = Doo Wop backing track in the key of C (4 bar progression: C, Am, F, G7)
3) "Reggae Strum" = Upbeat Reggae backing track in the key of G (3 bar progression: G, D, Cmaj7)
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Check out my songs on Soundcloud!
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JInx
438 posts
May 08, 2013
2:23 PM
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Get a keyboard and learn 3 chords ... Make up your own baking tracks. Fun fun fun
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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harmonicanick
1899 posts
May 08, 2013
2:51 PM
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Took, you really MUST get out more and play with people.
Sorry, but there is no substitute, and if you do you will find another, much happier, and fulfilling world:)
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Martin
326 posts
May 08, 2013
3:47 PM
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"a lot of them tend to suggest what the melody should be and I find that it's difficult to freestyle with them. Anyone else discover that, and what can be done to counter it?"
Isn´t a backing track either 1) just a chord progression, like a 12 bar blues or such, or 2) a song w/o the melody line given, i.e. just the chords, bass, drums?
In 1) I can´t se how they "suggest what the melody should be" -- you´re perfectly free to provide that yourself; in 2) they SHALL suggest what melody should be.
I was earlier today playing along to a jazz manouche backing track of "It don´t mean a thing if it ain´t got that swing" and that track certainly suggests the melody.
If it didn´t it wouldn´t be a backing track to that song.
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Frank
2350 posts
May 09, 2013
5:39 AM
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The blues BT's will often suggest a hook and a groove...When in practice mode (this is work) - you will want to consciously take the time to absorb the hook and try to learn it note for note...Then come up with some comfortable and easy phrasing ideals to work with the groove and propel it along. Once confident with that, play the BT, but this time don't think about what your doing (this is play) - but concentrate on bringing your playing to life with heartfelt feelings, emotions and dynamics. Get good at these basic disciplines using a BT and when you go to play with live musicians - you should be able to add something interesting and meaningful to each particular song because you took the time to listen, not just randomly ramble off a bunch of needless noodled notes. Remember it is not about utilizing tons of notes and trying to cram a bunch of different ideas into a song..."Simplicity" brought to life by using a handful of good tight phrasing ideas and soulful DYNAMICS - will satisfy the soul :) This is easier said then done of course, and can be a source of struggle for me to maintain this important discipline... But something to aim for as we spin on this rock in outer space:)
Last Edited by Frank on May 09, 2013 5:52 AM
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HarpNinja
3309 posts
May 09, 2013
6:57 AM
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Without a posted example, it is hard to reach a conclusion, but such is playing any song. You should feel like you hear a melody to lead to when playing.
Playing to BT's is very limited. They are 100% static, and although I've heard some that have some interesting B sections, they do not have the dynamics of playing with others. Nor do they generally try to fudge them.
I would never jam for 3-5 minutes over the same progression at the same tempo and volume for a whole song with a band. Even as a practice tool, I don't like feeling forced to do that as it limits what I cna practice.
Playing to BT is not like trying to overdub parts in a studio, because again, your creative input the to deliver of the track is already predetermined. Maybe it is a bit like being a session musician or something? I think BT's can be a great practice tool, but it depends greatly on your objective. They are also an easy way to illustrate and share examples of things in a controlled enviroment.
EDIT: I guess what I am getting at is a BT is what it is. If you want a song with a different feel, you have to get a different BT. I find with the Jimi Lee tracks I play differently to different songs, but when I revisit a track, I play with similar feel. Some of that is simply due to trying to lock into a groove. I am going to play a swing shuffle like I play a swing shuffle.
I have one track that is a rock blues and the way the band plays it ONLY makes sense for me to play between the main riff. If that was a song I was playing with a band, I'd approach it the same way.
Where I find it easiest to be most creative within the structure of a song is when it is being played with others. Lots of great live bands do this - they create new moments within a song. A guitar player will change their chording or something to mix things up, etc. That to me is the most fun type of playing and why I burnt out really quick on looping, lol.
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My Website
Last Edited by HarpNinja on May 09, 2013 7:27 AM
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Frank
2353 posts
May 09, 2013
9:51 AM
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BT's can feel impersonal and can take a lot of imagination to make them unite with you on a personal level. When with other musicians or playing for an audience, it becomes personal on a level much deeper... A BT with no live interaction at all, at least one live person listening to you, again - will take imagination on your part to make it as real as possible with the circumstances afforded you :) Bt's are merely a tool to acquaint you with certain aspects of music and musicianship. IT's your job to make them -the Bt - more then they really are and benefit from what they have to offer...Sort of like going to College...The student is responsible for learning from the books, teachers, etc...If the student fails, they are usually to blame for not putting in the adequate amount of time and effort to benefit from thier studies.
Last Edited by Frank on May 09, 2013 9:52 AM
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MP
2744 posts
May 09, 2013
2:47 PM
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i've never played to a backing track i but have played on many studio sessions, demo stuff and album/CD releases. i'd get a call and sometimes get the song ahead of time and sometimes not.
the engineer liked me because we could be finished with my part in 15 minutes or less.
i would imagine that BTs are a lot less stress. it is not like anyones gonna yell at you or criticize your playing.
i'd just relax tooka. maybe some whiskey? the ideas will come if you have them in your trick bag. if you can't think of what to play you may want to woodshed by listening and playing to tracks by actual musicians. mix and match and play approximations of what you hear. remember, great musicians steal.:-)
the fact that a melody is implied can be a tremendous help. i've never seen it as a hindrance.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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SuperBee
1100 posts
May 10, 2013
1:45 AM
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I use backing tracks, in several ways I think. One thing I do is exercises like scales and arpeggios. Its just a kind of more interesting metronome used in that way. So I can practice swing time or straight time, 1/4 notes, 1/8 notes, triplets, and follow the chords. The other thing I'll do is play specific songs, so for instance I wanted to roll out a particular song with my busking duo, but I don't see the guy for a stretch. I can use a track while I learn the song, sort out the time. I could just play along with the original record, and I do for a while, but I like to have just a standard backtrack to work with, without harp on it. I can record what I'm doing and send it to my guitar man.
I use a programme to make different tempo cuts or change pitch... But it helps to have something in mind I think.
Just this morning we were messing with a little song we just made up by playing with chord tones, and transposing them across the changes, and using jimi lee's tracks to mess with how it would sound swung or straight, rhumba etc. just for a quick and easy compositional tool.
The way dave Barrett teaches improv, a part of it is building a mental lick library by (as he puts it) practicing chorus forms. Jam tracks are ideal for that kind of thing where you take a lick you like and play it in context, repetitively in order to memorise it, internalise it, and familiarise yourself with constructing instrumentals, building a library on which to draw.
And you can just play along for fun, making stuff up on the spot i supposr. Dunno how much value that is, but if its fun, why not?
----------I used to try doing that, but these days not really.
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tookatooka
3290 posts
May 10, 2013
2:15 AM
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Thanks guys. Some good ideas to take on board there. Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.
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Frank
2354 posts
May 10, 2013
3:55 AM
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Morning Tooka...May I please add - that we "ourselves" are the most important listener of the music we make. Point is...Always try (when in playing mode) to move yourself, to touch your own soul - to feel your ears with titillating tones. And try to rehearse as if you have an audience in front of you. Most likely - if you look at the floor when you practice and play, when you do perform on a stage or what have you - your going to look at the floor...Both GOOD and BAD habits are built and strengthened in the woodshed...Often the case is...How you practice/rehearse, is how you will present yourself to the public come showtime :)
Here are a couple of studio grooves that kinda sound like a back track does...listen how these guys approached these tunes...
This is deak harp w/ lazy river - it has some simple but nice breaks in it.
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Oisin
1021 posts
May 10, 2013
5:55 AM
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Tooka,
I'm going to a jam tonight in West Ham if you fancy coming along. There is a DLR station right next to it and I can meet you there and drop you by car at a British rail station nearby when it's finished. Just let me know on here and I'll e-mail you my mobile number. This is a very relaxed jam with a very friendly crowd and I think you'll get an opportunity to play what YOU like with some great musicians. It's not too big and I promise you'll be made to feel very welcome.
I know it's very short notice so I totally understand if you can't make it.
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Oisin
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TheoBurke
400 posts
May 10, 2013
6:28 AM
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I'm partial to using a lo of notes myself when I hit a groove, but not always. Brevity is a more difficult art, and it is needed to make more crowded choruses work. An improvisation is a composition , after all, and all the elements need to come into play for the playing to worth a listen. For backing tracks, I generally don't have much of an issue being able to "bend the track" to my whim, but the issue really is finding backing tracks that are interesting to play over, in different styles, grooves, tempos, chord progressions. I doubt I'll be a jazz player, ever, but I do like to improvise over gypsy swing, bebop and country BTs because it forces me to explore areas of the harmonica I would otherwise ignore if I stuck with only blues.
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Ted Burke
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.co,
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tookatooka
3291 posts
May 10, 2013
1:13 PM
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Thanks Frank. I'll listen to those in a minute and study them in fine detail.
Sorry Oisin and thanks for your kind offer but I only just saw it and it's way too late already. It's very kind of you though.
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boris_plotnikov
865 posts
May 11, 2013
1:40 AM
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I use Band-In-A-Box to make any backing track for practice.
Also check great stuff from Steve Baker, perfect playalongs.
For jazz and pop there's great playalongs from Hal Leonard.
Playing with playalongs is another skill. You have to be creative despite backing track don't react to your playing.
Backing tracks are very good for playing pre-arranged tunes, not so good for improvisation.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Oisin
1022 posts
May 11, 2013
2:08 AM
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Tooka, no problem, I know it was very short notice. I,ll be going again in a couple of weeks time if you still fancy it. Maybe get the logistics sorted out a few days before hand this time. I know you will enjoy yourself. Then there,s the wednesday jam at Leyton.....!!
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Oisin
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Frank
2367 posts
May 11, 2013
6:23 PM
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Here are some Bts I got from the local library :)
Blues Bts
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tookatooka
3293 posts
May 12, 2013
1:46 AM
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Blimey Frank. That must be some library you've got there. Thanks. I'll give them all a listen.
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Kingley
2639 posts
May 12, 2013
1:57 AM
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Frank you da man! :)
Tooka have you tried playing in a different position to the backing tracks? This might help to break out of the path you feel it's pushing you into. For example if you tried playing along to a backing track in D using a C harp in 3rd rather than using a G harp in 2nd, you might find it makes you more creative with you're phrasing.
Last Edited by Kingley on May 12, 2013 1:58 AM
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tookatooka
3294 posts
May 12, 2013
2:38 AM
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Thanks @Kingley. Yes. That's one of the things I do try to do. I'm getting better in third so this must be working for me. Thanks.
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