As a practical matter it comes down to whether you think it's more important to be in tune with yourself or in tune with other musicians you are playing with. JI has a lot of flat notes that keep you from sounding in tune with the rest of of the band. But, supposedly chords sound a little smoother in JI.
If you don't play with others, i guess it doesn't make much difference.
there has been a lot of legendary blues in the past played on the marine band 1896 which if I am not mistaken was JI tuning on the mbs back when they were a better harp
with what notes do the differences in tuning lie and which way to they go....I imagine the 1st position roots and 5ths would be exactly the same...blow 1,4,7,10 and blow3,6,9...but I could be wrong?? Why the difference? I understand chords are better for one and single the other...but i never hear these tunings discussed when talking about pianos and other instruments that do both chords and single notes.
Its only fairly recently that ET has come into favour. Even pianos were Just Tuned.Now pianos are ET,but the octaves are stretched.ie sharper as they go up each octave.
Almost every harmonica track I listen to has JI harps on it. They don't sound out to me.
I question who is actually more in tune with the band.
Here is a quote from Pat Missins site on the subject.
"If you play a 12TET major triad, the difference tone generated by the root and the major third is more than 70 cents sharper than the pitch two octaves below the root of the chord; the difference tone generated by the major third and the fifth is more than 80 cents flatter than the pitch two octaves below the root of the chord.the difference tone generated by the root and the fifth isn't quite so bad, being only about 6 cents flatter than the pitch of the note one octave below the root of the chord. These difference tones all clash against each other and the secondary difference tones further increase the unpleasant rumbling in the bass register, with the out-of-whack summational tones adding noise in the higher ranges. On an instrument like the piano, where the tones it produces die away comparatively quickly, this is not too much of a problem. With long sustained tones on the harmonica, it is another thing altogether. "
Here's another "Actually, for the most part, if you are playing single notes, the precise intonation of your harp barely matters at all. Rather than 12TET sounding better for single note players, it is more a case of 12TET sounding worse for chordal players."
Have a look at his site,it has some great ifo on all aspects of the harmonica,including lots,and lots on tuning. http://www.patmissin.com/ ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 7:03 AM
A semitone, also called a half step or a half tone,[1] is the smallest musical interval commonly used in Western tonal music,[2] and it is considered the most dissonant[3] when sounded harmonically. It is defined as the interval between two adjacent notes in a 12-tone scale (e.g. from C to C?). This implies that its size is exactly or approximately equal to 100 cents, a twelfth of an octave. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
"Rather than 12TET sounding better for single note players, it is more a case of 12TET sounding worse for chordal players."
Well, if you play in positions other than 1st 2d and 3d the flat notes in CT and JI become even more problematic and there are fewer chords available to play in the higher positions.
Personally, even in 1st 2d and 3d positions, the flat single notes sound out of tune to my ear and I am more bothered by that than by the beating you get from the chords if you play ET (which sounds like a slight shimmer to my ear). But YMMV.
In 1st 2d and 3d positions the flat notes may not be as noticeable if you only play blues.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 7:23 AM
"Its only fairly recently that ET has come into favour. Even pianos were Just Tuned."
Fudge alert!
"The progress of Equal Temperament from mid-18th century on is described with detail in quite a few modern scholarly publications: it was already the temperament of choice during the Classical era (second half of the 18th century)"
groyster, my advice is don't worry. You hear sensitive susans complaining that chords in ET give them ear cancer, but I don't notice many lovers of piano music complaining.
---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
I dont play professionally but when my brother is playing in the key of e or a as he usually does I know to play an A harp and D harp respectively I have to use a "cheat sheet" for 3rd position but would know what key harp to play from that-by playing a special 20 or a marine band 1896 does that mean that I will out of tune with the guitar player? nobody has ever told me that I was out of tune
"Its only fairly recently that ET has come into favour. Even pianos were Just Tuned." Fudge alert!"
I stand by what I said. I had in mind the period of the great classical composers. Up to that point and even during pianos were Just tuned. Which in music terms is fairly recently !
@groyster1: you won't be grossly out of tune. certain notes will be a little flat. supposedly, this makes chords sound smoother (sort of like a barbershop quartet--same idea).
Now, if you start playing minor scales in 4th and 5th positions, or major scales in 12th position, the location of these flat notes (what degree of the scale they appear at) is different from what you get in 1st 2d and 3d positions, so the flat pitches become more noticeable and so will sound a little more out of tune with the other notes of those scales. but, again, it's not like you will be out of key.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 7:40 AM
"I had in mind the period of the great classical composers."
Mid 18th century onwards
"Up to that point and even during pianos were Just tuned."
Not true: "Before Meantone temperament became widely used in the Renaissance, the most commonly used tuning system was Pythagorean tuning. Pythagorean tuning was a system of just intonation"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament
In other words, you have to go back to plainsong.
"Which in music terms is fairly recently"
Fudge! ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
I think the important thing about the difference between the two tunings is the overtones.
On an acoustic piano (not an artificial/electronic one) if you hit a key on a low octave, you not only hear that note but a whole lot of other tones which resonate through the instrument. This is why you can't play a chord triad on the low end of a piano without it sounding fuzzy and bad - the extra tones overlap and sound dissonant.
Those extra tones are called overtones and they sound sweet - they contribute to the rich sound of a piano. The emphasis on which overtones you hear depend on many factors including exactly what key you press, but more importantly the physical characteristics of the piano - how the sound resonates and makes adjacent strings resonate. So you can't really change this in the piano other than play a different piano.
The harmonica can be set up so that you can change the series of overtones you hear when you play more than none note together. If you chose a tuning which maximizes the overtones, you will find than when you hit individual notes, they may not always be in perfect tune with another instrument that is playing the same note.
If you chose a tuning which emphasizes the precision of individual notes, you will not hear sweet sounding overtones when you hit a chord.
@arzajac: "Compromised tuning is the best of both worlds."
I am in total agreement with everything you have said but this (what i have quoted.). Why? Because the slight shimmer you get playing chords on an ET harp (which is referred to as "beating") is not very audible in an amplified live performance context.
If you play with a cupped mic into an amp with reverb or delay along with electric guitar, electric bass and drums the shimmer is not noticeable--it gets swallowed in the mix. this is not true with respect to the flatness of the tempered notes--if anything the flat pitches are more noticeable when amplified.
of course if one is a solo player or just plays with acoustic ensembles different considerations may apply.
All my main harps are ET. My Low tuned, other than F, are the MB compromise.
I don't do much chording, but I play a ton of octaves and other split intervals. I can't really hear anything annoying when chording either. I mean, I know it isn't the best sound for chording, but the sound of compromised tunings when playing with a band is not something I am into for my playing. I play in just as much 3rd and 12th as second, and it is my job in one band to play the roll of the keyboard player.
Unless playing almost all 2nd position blues, it just isn't useful for me. However, it can sound great depending on the context. I like how it sounds when other players use it.
Hvyj: I said "best of both worlds" because I think it's an accurate description of the layout of the tones on the harp. A compromised tuning tries to offer the best of both tuning layouts while minimizing the disadvantages of both.
I did not mean to imply that it is the best tuning in the world and that everyone should use it because it's the best. Everyone has different needs, of course.
I have used equal, just, and compromised tuned harps. It is true that with just tuned harps you can get amazing difference tones on chords that sound massive when playing amplified. The chords just sound sweeter and more full due to the difference tones.
I had previously mainly used equal tuned harps and played a lot of single note melody lines. I was taken to task on another list for my lack of understanding of the difference tones in chords. I learned that they were correct.
However, I find the flatter notes very noticeable when playing melody lines with a band.
I think compromised tuning works best for both uses: better chords than equal (not as good as just), and better pitch for melody (not as good as equal), but ok for both applications.
@dougharps: IMHO, the most powerful and biggest sounding difference tones or "ghost notes" are produced playing split interval double stops and octave stops. Those sound very big and powerful whether one is playing ET, CT or JI. Of course, in JI the ghost notes are more precisely in tune and "sweeter."
But, in my experience, when one is playing amplified, the overall effect is pretty much the same. I've read posts on other forums where knowledgeable posters whine about how dissonant the difference tones sound played amplified on ET harps. Maybe I don't have a sufficiently refined ear, but while JI may sound better, I really don't think the ghost notes produced on an ET harp sound particularly bad.
DOes anyone use just tuning on holes 1-4 and ET on 5-10, or some variation of that. I understand the the pros and cons of both tunings? To me, the chords are at the bottom of the harp, the single notes (that are pitch sensitive) are holes 4 or 5 and up. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
-i'm with arzajac, i actually prefer modern compromise tuning. i chord a lot and the 7th sounds too rough for me on ET harps. they are great in most other respects.
but here's the truth, a lot of people don't hear enough of a difference to care. only wankers like me.--------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
@Jim...Chris Michalek would do that. My A harp from him was tuned like that. I like it, but it isn't something I have done since. I dunno, I just play so many single notes and tend to play from the front of my mouth unless playing blues, which has become rarer and rarer, that ET is the way to go.
I am toying with charting what harps I use in what positions and tuning my 2nd and 3rd only harps to a compromise. I would only use an E or Eb harp in cross, so a compromise would be fine. For C and A, it doesn't make sense.
Actually, my goal is to have a pro set of ET and compromise in C, G, D, A, low F, and Bb. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Here is a great explanation about JI and why 19LimitJI is good. http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun2.html
He ends with this about playing in different positions which questions a lot that is posted in this thread? . "As for the other positions... well, as you progress further and further from the designated key of the harp, the actual tuning becomes much less of an issue. By the time you are playing in 7th position (F# on a C harp) you are having to do so much bending that the intonation is much more to do with the player than the harmonica. The thing to bear in mind is that no matter what key you are playing on a harp (diatonic or chromatic), there are only certain notes that can be sounded simultaneously, so you don't need to worry about such things as the relative tuning of E and A on a standard C major harp."
Ps. I've been using 19limit for a month or so now and its great for 1st,2nd and 3rd. I had issues in third using 7limit with the 5 draw being too flat. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 12:47 PM
Forgive what might be considered a pretty basic question, but I don't play with a band so I don't really know the answer to this. If everyone in the band tunes their instrument to JI, wouldn't the flatness of the Just Tuned notes then all be a moot point? What I mean is that wouldn't the whole band be all a little out of tune together? And if so, wouldn't this be one way to still play JI and not sound all out of tune.
Is it possible to tune a guitar to JI or does it have to do with the fret placement? If it requires a special fret spacing, I guess that would be one reason not to do it...
But theoretically, if a band used all JI tuned instruments, then would they sound in tune together?
One reason why I'm asking this is that I'm learning to play the 3-stringed Cigar Box Guitar as well, and I'd like to play harp along with it (in a rack). I've got it tuned open, and I play with a slide baring across all three strings (I just play simple chord rhythms for the time being). Mines' fretless, so I can bar the chords any way I want. I've noticed that sometimes a particular chord will sound a little off from the harp when I bar perpendicular to the neck right across the fret marker. However, it sounds much better in tune with the harp when I angle the slide a little. Does this have to do with Just Tuning?
"Pythagorean tuning was a system of just intonation"
I don't think this is completely true. Pythagorean tuning is a system for justly tuning fifths -- eleven out of twelve of them any way. The thirds it gives aren't justly tuned, if we take just tuning to mean tuning with whole number ratios.
@7LimitJI:One actually bends very little playing in 4th and 5th positions.
In 4th you've got to do the whole step bend on draw 3 to get root in the lower register and you might bend blow 8 to get a flat fifth if you are playing blues, but that's about it (unless you need major 7thsfor harmonic minor in which case you can bend draw 3 a minor third and draw 6 a half step). You CAN bend draw 2 for major sixth and flat sixth, but you don't use major sixth playing in natural minor or harmonic minor keys (which is what you ordinarily use 4th position for).
In fifth position you bend draw 3 a half step for flat fifth and a whole step for the fourth. That's about it. If you need major 2 you CAN bend 2 draw a half step or 9 blow a half step. Bending draw 4 a half step gives you major 6 which is not a note you ordinarily use playing in a natural minor key (which is what you generally use 5th position for). But there are some tunes that modulate between dorian minor and natural minor like "Chittlins Con Carne" so you might use the 4 draw bend every now and then on material like that.
I use 4th and 5th position quite a bit and know my way around in those positions as well or better than I know my way around 2d and 3d positions. Let me tell you that what Pat Missin is saying absolutely makes no sense as applied to 4th and 5th positions. You simply don't bend as much in 4th and 5th as you do playing in 2d or 3d.
I'm not that good playing in 12th position so I'm not as sure, but I don't think you've got a whole lot of bends in 12th either. And the flat 5 draw you have in JI and CT is very problematic for playing in 12th because that is root.
I have a strong preference for ET. I think I am in better tune with the rest of the band playing ET. BUT, i tend not to play very many chords.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 1:26 PM
@isaacullah: Fretless instruments and slide trombones can play in whatever temperament a player wants to play them in because the instrument itself is not intonated. the player has to intonate each note with finger position or slide position.
@7LimitJI: the guy that runs Harp-l plays 19 limit JI and is always telling me that it does not present any significant problems.
I played Hohner CT tuned harps for many years except for a brief flirtation with LOs when they first came out. Then, about 3 years ago i switched to Suzuki Hammonds which are ET. Not only did I sound more in tune with the bands i played with, as soon as i switched to playing ET harps, but after a month or so my ear began to improve dramatically since I was playing notes at proper concert pitch. I never actually knew what a flat 7th was SUPPOSED to sound like since it is a note that was tuned flat on the Hohners I had played for such a long time. This also threw off my intonation of the 2 draw whole step bend.
My playing got a whole lot more musical after i switched to ET harps and my ear improved considerably at the same time. That's what made me such an ardent ET devotee.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 1:40 PM
@hvyj and 7limit: That's kind what I thought. Fretted instruments have to be fretted for a particular temperment, and fretless can be played any way one wants. It makes sense.
But what about my other question? If the whole band is playing instruments tuned to the same Just temperment, then the flat notes won't be an issue in terms of all the instruments sounding "in tune" together? ---------- == I S A A C ==
@isaacullah: temperament is key specific, so if the whole band wanted to play JI tuned instruments they would need a different instrument for each each key--like harmonica players do.
This is also why tempered tuning that might sound ok on a harmonica played in certain positions (keys) doesn't sound as good if that harmonica is played in other positions. Playing a harmonica in different positions is simply playing the instrument in different keys. Musicians who play other instruments do this all the time, but to most harmonica players playing in multiple positions seems like a big deal. I'm not sure why.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2011 1:56 PM
"but to most harmonica players playing in multiple positions seems like a big deal. I'm not sure why."
With me its, because I don't "need" to. I play blues in my blues band, playing songs of my choosing. Plus I'm not at a stage where I can say"I've played everything I can without overblows, its time to learn"
But,I'm playing more and more swing and after hearing Bart play this. A seed has been sown about learning to overblow.
I used to play equal tuned harps, then I tried an amplified chord comparison and heard the low difference tones with just tuning. But I don't like the flat notes in melody lines that I hear with just tuned harps.
I have settled on using compromise tuned harps because I use chords as well as single note or octave lines. The chords are fuller than equal tuned chords, and the notes are more on pitch than just tuned. My use of compromise tuning is a compromise!
I recommend that people should seek a variety of viewpoints, then try things and decide what works for them. I listened to different opinions and tried an experiment. I was surprised by how good the just intonation chords sounded when compared to equal intonation chords. I had not expected to hear the difference tones as I had been told I would.
There are some styles of music for which I might pick an equal intonation harp: for playing a jazz song for example. Solo blues chugging or old school blues I might pick a just intonation harp.
There are a variety of talented knowledgeable players on this forum. Some are world class players.
In matters of taste, we all choose what works for us, be it amps, mics, harmonica intonations, harmonica pitches, wood comb, plastic, etc.
I value the knowledge and diversity of experience on this forum. I read it for quite a while before joining.
I like it best when people share views based on their knowledge and experience, in an honest exchange. ----------
The problem with single note melody is you don't use it except in church hymns played in first position.
once you intonate notes it all goes out the window.
ncpacemaker, don't put yourself down.
Mostly it's all bullshit. Ask yourself how much of this is relevant to a rock 'n' roll group on stage. None of it! Mostly it's insecurity combated by over-use of mathematics. It's a form of OCD.
The only thing I agree with is tuning the draw plate sharp. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
@Andrew If this is all bullshit,why bother reading or posting?
"once you intonate notes it all goes out the window"
If a note is tuned flat,how do you intonate it sharp?
"Mostly it's insecurity combated by over-use of mathematics. It's a form of OCD"
Try playing a chord on an ET harp then on a 19Limit or 7Limit tuned harp. If you cannot hear the difference maybe your ears need syringed.
I practise harp to improve my tone. I mod my amps to get a better tone. I've tried numerous different mics to get a better tone. I now tune my harps to get a better tone.
OCD ? All good musicians I know are the same, driven to improve their sound,by any means at their disposal.
People here feel the same way,hence being on this forum to learn and share information on our hobby.
The only posts I've read in this thread that have a smell emanating from them have been posted by you.Trolling away trying to provoke a negative reaction. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
"If you cannot hear the difference maybe your ears need syringed."
I never said I couldn't hear a difference; I said it didn't matter.
I didn't say it's all bullshit; I said mostly it's all bullshit. Stop reading what you want to read! ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
I agree with Andrew: there is a difference, but I don't think it really matters.
I'm certainly more than happy to hear fractional beating on chords on my Lee Oskars, because I know they'll last me a minimum of 3 years, need minimal maintenance (maybe a clean every 6 months)and the audience will be oblivious.
What I do find a little hard to come to terms with is Andrew's statement:
"The problem with single note melody is you don't use it except in church hymns played in first position."
which IMHO is as silly as it is incorrect - perhaps if the words "in blues" were added it might have been slightly less silly.
Anyway in his defence - Andrew isn't a troll. Not everyone who posts a different point of view is trolling. Provocative and contentious is one thing - trolling is a whole other kettle of cliches
Good morning fellas-let's keep it nice, and tone down the cursing a bit, please? Agree to disagree.You're arguing over a minute difference in tuning, which is ridiculous. Andrew is no troll-he's just on one side of what apppears to be a heated much-ado-about-nothing argument. Thanks for your cooperation. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 6:04 AM
