groyster1
713 posts
Jan 10, 2011
6:06 AM
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@todd
I agree learn to agree to disagree
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hvyj
1044 posts
Jan 10, 2011
6:21 AM
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@Andrew:"The problem with single note melody is you don't use it except in church hymns played in first position."
You've got to be kidding. the chords available on the harp are so simple and primitive they only fit with certain kinds of music and if you play a lot of chords, it drastically limits the music you can fit diatonic harp to. there's all kinds of cool material playable with single notes on a diatonic harp that is NOT playable if you try to blow chords all over the place.
single note playing is not limited to melody. You can play very rhythmic repeating single note riffs like you might do playing funk or syncopated single note lines like you might do playing reggae where the primitive chords available on the harp won't fit. This concept works for blues, too--especially minor key blues.
To my ear, the flat notes in CT and JI are very noticeable when playing single notes. the beating when playing chords ET is not so noticeable to me playing in an electric band setting. But YMMV. it depends on how you want to sound and what you think is important to your sound.
i play out 3-4 nights most weeks either gigging with my band, as a side man with another band, or sitting in with different bands. I can assure you this stuff is EXTREMELY relevant to live performance in a real world setting. If you don't think so, you are a good example of why harp players in general are so often disrespected by professional working musicians.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 6:22 AM
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7LimitJI
289 posts
Jan 10, 2011
6:44 AM
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If I'm wrong about something a polite correction is all that is required and I will accept graciously.
I like to learn,thats one of the reasons I'm here.
But several posts stating "fudge alert" is IMHO immature,smacks of insecurity and is unnecessary.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 6:44 AM
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captainbliss
383 posts
Jan 10, 2011
6:58 AM
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ET vs JI?
Two analogies:
1. Standard tuning vs open tuning on a guitar. Standard tuning plays everything pretty well. Open tunings tend to be much more resonant, but can be much less versatile.
2. Car vs steam train. You can go in any direction you like in a car, you can get there with style, but you'll never (IMHO) have the power and majesty of a steam train. Then again, the steam train has to stay on the tracks.
Of course, as hvyj rightly says...
YMMV.
xxx
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LittleBubba
5 posts
Jan 10, 2011
8:08 AM
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Like alotta guys, I have harps in my case that are tuned in various ways. I don't even think about the mathematical difference in the tuning; I just know which harps sound better on certain tunes, and I'm pretty sure most harpers (even fairly novice players) would be able to make those choices with their ears, if they care at all.
Sometimes I'll pick a harp for the sound of its reeds, not the tuning.
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hvyj
1045 posts
Jan 10, 2011
9:55 AM
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Further observation about difference tones/ghost notes: It occurs to me that the extent to which difference tones/ghost notes sound in tune relative to the tuning scheme of the harp may be magnified by a bullet mic. I don't ordinarily use bullet mics myself, but i have enough experience with them to know that they can sound harsh and it occurs to me that this might emphasize how in or out of tune difference tones/ghost notes sound.
Just a thought.....
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captainbliss
386 posts
Jan 10, 2011
10:53 AM
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@hvyj:
/Just a thought...../
And a very interesting one at that.
If (which it seems reasonable to assume) certain gear maximises the benefits of JI tuning (notably difference tones), then there's another *very* important factor in the ET / JI choice.
So...
When making the ET / JI choice, one might consider:
1. Style of player (notably chordal / single note)
2. Harmonic structure of music played
3. Positions player likes to use
4. Instrumentation of fellow musicians (eg open-tuned slide guitar vs piano)
5. Propensity of gear to amplify desired JI benefits
???
xxx
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hvyj
1047 posts
Jan 10, 2011
11:08 AM
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@captainbliss;
Well, among the relevant considerations, is that a full time tongue blocker is going to get a lot more out of a JI harp than a full time lip purser because of all the chordal things that can be done with tongue lifts, tongue slaps and that sort of technique.
Of course, most of those techniques are of limited utility for playing anything but blues, but there are a whole lot of harp players that only play blues.
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chromaticblues
461 posts
Jan 10, 2011
12:27 PM
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I stoped tuning my harps.
That way no one can argue with me.
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franckriver
1 post
Jan 10, 2011
7:11 PM
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Hello everybody,
it's my first message on this forum .
I find the Dirty South Blues Harp forum very interesting,
I am mainly playing chromatic in a jazzy style, but also diatonics in a blues context ( but no overblowing) and tremolos for world music.
for Just Intonation, I want to know if the Suzuki's Folkmaster is tune in JI. I am remember reading, maybe on this forum, that this harp was good for Sonny Terry 's music, ( maybe, it could be the only one from Suzuki in JI?)
thanks for answers.
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7LimitJI
296 posts
Jan 11, 2011
12:11 AM
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@Bluedoc
Have a look here.Its a list of many tunings
http://deltafrost.com/diatonic-harmonica-tunings-an-update_topic6473.html
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 12:13 AM
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Andrew
1271 posts
Jan 11, 2011
3:02 AM
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@hvyj
"a full time tongue blocker is going to get a lot more out of a JI harp than a full time lip purser because of all the chordal things that can be done with tongue lifts, tongue slaps and that sort of technique."
Are you saying this is not true of a GM? Are you saying you would never play a chord on a GM?
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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boris_plotnikov
400 posts
Jan 11, 2011
4:12 AM
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My preferences are. For standart richter all holes are 442 Hz, while 3, 7 draw and 2, 5, 8 blow are 10 cents lower. Chords sounds good (maybe not as perfect as JI, but much better than ET), while single note playing is completely OK. 2,5,8 blow and 3,7 draw are not flatter than 440Hz, while you can bend other holes a bit, to make them in tune with all 440 instruments.
I also like octave to be slightly narrower, e.g. I tend to tune 1 draw 3-5 cents higher, than 4 draw, and 8 draw is 2-3 cents lower than 4 draw. It gives me more stable octave tuning while defferent breath pressures. I do it mostly by ear, not by tuner just scrap till octave starts work good for me at different volumes/
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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hvyj
1051 posts
Jan 11, 2011
5:02 AM
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@Andrew: i am a mixed embouchure player, but not a full time TBer. I only play ET harps and generally I tend not to play a lot of chords. I will more frequently play split interval double stops.
But of course I do play some chords and i'm not bothered by how they sound on an ET harp.
What I'm saying is that full time TBers who do tongue lifts and tongue slaps and that sort of stuff may find JI harps better suited to that particular style of play--which only really works consistently well for playing blues. Not saying that it CAN'T be done or that it shouldn't be done on a GM or other ET tuned harp. But the whole TBing blues thing has a lot to do with lifting the tongue to produce chords and slapping the tongue down to isolate single notes. If one is going to put that much emphasis on chordal playing, it would seem to make sense to use harps that are tuned to optimize how the chords sound.
I play a lot of blues, but I play a lot of other styles of music too. Generally speaking, the more you get away from I-IV-V dominant7th chord progressions the less useful the chords available on a diatonic harp will be. And in positions above third you don't have many chords available anyway. But, personally, i perceive no difficulty playing chords on a GM or other ET harp if they fit the music. So, yeah, certainly i'd play chords on a GM. But, in general, i tend not to play a lot of chords anyway.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 5:18 AM
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chromaticblues
462 posts
Jan 11, 2011
6:30 AM
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I agree with most of hvyj. The stuff about tongue blocking and JI tuning. Thats not a jab at anybody. Thats the way it is. I play exactly the way he mention and I don't feel he has said anything out of line thru out this thresd.
Evertyone has to remember we all do it a little different.
I play chords and all the tongue stuff because I think its cool. So for me JI is the way to go. As far as not being able to hear the difference in the chords. WOW!! I can hear its out of tune if one of the first three holes are more than 2 cents off. As hvyj said his ear has gotten better sence he began playing ET tuned harps (and I know that it happens because I use to play Lee Oskars and went thru the same thing). We'll the same thing has happened to me, but I can hear chords, double stops and four hole splits perfectly. If you use one tuning only. Your ear will get ust to it and that becomes right and everything else is wrong.
So what that means is right and wrong is different from person to person!
Doesn't everybody already know that? Why argue about it? I believe someone asked a qeustion.
The diatonic harmonica as we know it is the Richter tuning. It was developed to two chord German folk music. The 1 and 4 chord. I'm not shure if the draw 5 was tuned very flat from the beginning or not. The only reason the draw 5 and 9 are so flat in JI tuning is to play the 5 chord which was not in German folk music 150 years ago. JI tuning is obviouly designed for blues and 1 4 5 chord progressions. IT would be interesting to know how the original harps were tuned and what changes have been made and when!
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Andrew
1273 posts
Jan 11, 2011
8:37 AM
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"The diatonic harmonica as we know it is the Richter tuning. It was developed to two chord German folk music. The 1 and 4 chord."
Sorry. 1st position gives you the I & V chords.
"The only reason the draw 5 and 9 are so flat in JI tuning is to play the 5 chord which was not in German folk music 150 years ago."
I'll not try to guess how you want to rewrite that.
"JI tuning is obviouly designed for blues and 1 4 5 chord progressions."
I've always assumed it's the other way around - blues was designed around the harp's (2nd position) I&IV chords. I don't know if Adam has ever said anything about that type of ancient history.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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Honkin On Bobo
566 posts
Jan 11, 2011
8:56 AM
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You guys are absolutely BLOWING MY MIND with this discussion (all of you - and that's a good thing). I'm trying my ass off to keep up..alternatively experiencing the AHA!! moments as well as the "kindergartener observing a College of Musical Knowledge class discussion" moments.
So here's my "why is HE in this class?" question..the mere answering of which will shave several points of your musical IQ. But please indulge me. I am trying to keep up.....really I am.
All OOTB harmonicas from the major manufacturers are Richter tuned, right (and more specifically - Hohner Special 20s)?
Now, carry on making my head spin.... ;-)
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Honkin On Bobo
568 posts
Jan 11, 2011
9:09 AM
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"I've always assumed it's the other way around - blues was designed around the harp's (2nd position) I&IV chords. I don't know if Adam has ever said anything about that type of ancient history."
This was the late Chris M.'s central point in a forum discussion I had with him regarding "why blues harp beginners should START WITH a custom harp". Though I understood his logic, I'm still a OOTB kind of guy.
(not to hijack the thread down THAT slippery slope, or anything...:-o.......)
EDIT: reread this comment in light of the above discussion..i'm way out of my depth here...I will promptly excuse myself from the classroom.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 9:19 AM
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7LimitJI
299 posts
Jan 11, 2011
9:18 AM
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Anyone interested in the history of the harmonica should have a look at Pat Missins' site
http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q36.html
Here's another quote from it
"The Richter harmonica is what most people mean when they use the term "diatonic harmonica". In fact, the term Richter seems to be most commonly used to describe the tuning layout of the typical diatonic harmonica, although strictly speaking it actually describes the way the harmonica is constructed. The Richter System harmonica is a single reed diatonic, which means that each note on the instruments is sounded by one reed, as opposed to double reed diatonics such as the various octave and tremolo instruments where each note is sounded by a pair of reeds. The Richter harmonica has between four and sixteen holes in the mouthpiece, each hole being more or less square in shape and leading to a chamber which supplies air to two reeds, one blow reed and one draw reed:"
So @Honkin Yes,all diatonic harps are !
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
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chromaticblues
464 posts
Jan 11, 2011
9:20 AM
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AH! Yes your right andrew. I for got that the harp was originaly played in first position. That would mean it was designed around the 1 and 2 chords not 1 and 5. Thats pretty wierd. I don't know anything about German folk music.
Thank you for correcting my mistake.
@ Honkin On Bobo
Thats a good question. That would mean that the harp had more to do with the early development of blues than guitar did? I don't know, but good question!
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hvyj
1054 posts
Jan 11, 2011
9:24 AM
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@Honkin On Bobo: "All OOTB harmonicas from the major manufacturers are Richter tuned, right (and more specifically - Hohner Special 20s)?"
Yes. But there are minor tuned and country tuned harps, too--which deviate from the Richter tuned note pattern. But I think it's semantics and an imprecise use of the word "tuning" that's may be causing your confusion.
Richter tuning is the tuning scheme=what notes are in which holes. ET, JI and CT are TEMPERAMENT schemes=how the relative pitches of those same notes in the Richter tuning scheme are tuned (or tempered) in relation to one another. In CT and JI the pitches are TEMPERED=adjusted slightly in relation to one another. In ET there is no adjustment or tempering which is why it's called EQUAL temperament.
In ET each note is at concert pitch. In JI and CT the pitch of certain notes are a little sharp or flat in relation to the others.
It's not you--the terminology is confusing since the same word s being used to mean different things.
Now, to confuse things further, there is also the baseline tuning of the harp. A440 is concert pitch. This refers to the frequency at which A above middle C is tuned and then all the other notes are tuned in relation to A. But most harps (even ET harps) are tuned a little sharp: typically A441, A442, A443 or A444. This is because breath pressure depresses the pitch of the reeds a little as we play so a harp tuned a little sharp will sound in tune with other instruments that are tuned to A440.
Suzuki Hammonds are A442 OOB. Hohner GMs are A443 OOB. LOs used to be A444 OOB when they first came out, but I think they are A441 OOB these days. I think MBs and Sp20s are A442 but I'm not sure. Personally, I find i sound best in tune with the band at A442. My customs are tuned to A442 and my Hammonds are A442 OOB.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 3:25 PM
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Andrew
1275 posts
Jan 11, 2011
9:35 AM
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"it was designed around the 1 and 2 chords not 1 and 5."
Are you saying that because of the 4,5 and 6 draw holes?
I think it's rather the case that the important holes were the 1, 2, 3, 4 draw, and then the 5 draw gave you the dominant (i.e. V chord) 7th, and the 6 draw gave you the major 9th (of the V chord), but by accident, because the tuning was pretty limited.
----------
Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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chromaticblues
466 posts
Jan 11, 2011
9:54 AM
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No Andrew the richter tuning (as I know) was made to play the blow 123 and draw 123 chords because of the German folk music of the day. So in 1st position that would be the 1 and 2 chord. Thats why I said pretty wierd! It was a long time ago! I don't know if the draw 5 and 9 were 32 cents flat from the beginning or not. If it was then why? The only thing that makes sense is it was made to play the 4 5 6 draw chord also. I read something a while back that said the German Folk music did not utilize that chord in the music. I don't know! I know Hohner has changed the tuning a number of times. Who knows if they were all documented?
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Honkin On Bobo
569 posts
Jan 11, 2011
10:01 AM
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Thanks for indulging me hvyj (7Limit and chromatic too).
hvyj, as a follow up question: If TUNING scheme = which notes are in which holes, and TEMPERING adjusts the pitches of the notes..isn't that changing the TUNING of the harmonica?
Or, asked another way, when is an A, no longer an A? When does an A become a Bb? And if there is a discreet frequency when it does, what do we call a pitch half way between an A and a Bb?....A half-sharp?
(as a quick aside...I'm not being sarcastic here..just really trying to learn some theory...done some homework on my own..and happily fading in and out of understanding this discussion....'cause its making me really think about this stuff. From a pratical standpoint.... I get a sense that if you've got the right key harp for the song (OOTB) and can competently blow a little blues...... nobody in the audience is gonna think wow that harp player sounds out of tune....or maybe I'm wrong about that?)
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 10:02 AM
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LittleBubba
10 posts
Jan 11, 2011
10:49 AM
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There was a theory at one time that the sharp tunings helped keep the "non-blues" audiences from falling asleep, lol.
I don't know if I buy that, but it's possible I s'pose.
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chromaticblues
467 posts
Jan 11, 2011
11:02 AM
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Thats true LB
Some jazz tunings have no flat notes just sharp. I don't play Jazz so I never took the time to learned what the tuning is.
Honkin On Bobo I think there is 100 cents between semi tones. So when you cross the 50 cent point one way or the other your in the next note.
About the harp player sounding out of tune. I would say your wrong about that. I think people will think more bad or good. If your good and in tune they will like. I've heard people that were good and there harp had gone out of tune and it bothered me the whole time. I don't know if other people that aren't musicians hear that or not. I'm sure some people do and just don't know why it sounds wrong, but it does. I look at it like this. Its our responsiblity to have it tuned right so that doesn't happen. When I was playing out I had two harps of every key I was going to use in case one went bad while I was playing.
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Honkin On Bobo
571 posts
Jan 11, 2011
11:18 AM
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Chromatic,
Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately (for me) I've got my hands full with a host of beginner issues which will supercede the prudence of and my ability (or lack thereof) to tinker with OOTB tuning and temperments on my harps. I sort of gotta choose my battles, and right now there are a shitload of 'em.
So I'm just gonna blow on....but knowledge is power so thanks for the enlightenment.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 11:20 AM
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chromaticblues
469 posts
Jan 11, 2011
11:23 AM
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NO problem H.O.B.
The Korg CA-30 only cost about $20. I got mine on sale a couple years ago for $15. There are easy to use to. Its not nearly as hard as you might think. If I knew they were that cheap I would have bought one sooner!
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hvyj
1056 posts
Jan 11, 2011
11:52 AM
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@Honkin On Bobo: i"m no expert on the temperament/tuning thing but temperament is not the same as tuning. They are related concepts, though, and there are a lot of articles on the web that explain it a lot better than i can.
Btw, i don't tune my harps. But i have a strong preference about the tuning I prefer for my particular style of play (A442 pure ET Richter).
"From a pratical standpoint.... I get a sense that if you've got the right key harp for the song (OOTB) and can competently blow a little blues...... nobody in the audience is gonna think wow that harp player sounds out of tune....or maybe I'm wrong about that?)"
No, that's right. As a practical matter, copping the groove and playing in time with good rhythm is more important to successful live performance in a band than note selection or the finer points of being in tune. It's sometimes been said that if the whole band starts at the same time and stops together the audience won't know the difference. I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but there's certainly a fair amount of practical wisdom there.
Anyway, if you've got the right key of harp and basic competence you should be fine. Now, how MUSICAL your playing sounds depends on your note selection, intonation and phrasing relative to the underlying chords. Personally, I am able to hear the flat notes in JI and CT harps if the player is playing single notes which to ME sounds unmusical--but not to the point being out of tune or incompetent. But i suspect the typical audience wouldn't notice any difference without a side by side comparison.
So, find harps YOU like to play and that respond well for the way YOU play and play those and don't worry about it unless/until you start to hear a difference. until then, as a practical matter, it makes no difference.
Keep in mind that i play multiple positions. If you only play 1st, 2d and 3d, you may never hear a difference that is worth bothering about. Or, as your skill level and ear improve, you might. Just go with the flow and don't worry about it.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 12:08 PM
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Honkin On Bobo
574 posts
Jan 11, 2011
12:02 PM
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Thanks j.
Sage advice.
(Edited for my inabilty to type two words without a typo.)
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 12:05 PM
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Tuckster
808 posts
Jan 11, 2011
12:34 PM
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All I can say is I'm not completely happy with any one temperment for all types of music. I haven't played an ET that sounded quite right on split octaves and chords for blues. But when I play with a sax player,it's nice to be right in tune with him. I'm limited to the first 3 positions so far. I can live with those ET chords when playing blues,but I'm never quite happy with it. Paul DeLay played with horns a lot,and he made it work. He's not in tune sometimes,but I kind of like the dissonance.
Hvyj-- I'm fascinated by your 4th & 5th position approach, but to be honest, all this theory is wasted on me. Is there somewhere I can actually listen to this stuff? A picture is worth a thousand words,so to speak.
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isaacullah
1353 posts
Jan 11, 2011
12:47 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't some of the compromised tuning systems really JI on the 1-3 holes, and then almost Equal on the 4-10 holes. I seem to recall that at least Seydel's are tuned that way. For me, that seems like a pretty good all around solution as the most useful chords (to me, anyway) are the 123 blow and draw chords. They're the ones I use most anyway, when doing chord chugs. In terms of single notes for melody playing, I tend to do my melody playing up higher, regardless of position. But the positions I generally use for melody (12th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, 1st) seem to best utilized in the mid-range and upper octave. I do play single notes down in the 1-3 holes when playing 2nd position, but I usually am heavily bending and slurring these notes. Of course, I don't play in a band, so I'm probably nowhere near as atuned to hearing the flatted notes as those of you who do so (like hyvj), but I do do looping where I'll play several different harps in several different positions, and it seems okay to me when I do that, and all my harps are tuned to some sort of compromise.
Cheers,
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== I S A A C ==
View my videos on YouTube!
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7LimitJI
301 posts
Jan 11, 2011
1:29 PM
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Isacc
Look here for the different tunings.
http://deltafrost.com/diatonic-harmonica-tunings-an-update_topic6473.html
Another thing I've noticed, is the nearer you tune to ET, the brighter the harp sounds.
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 8:47 PM
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hvyj
1060 posts
Jan 11, 2011
2:19 PM
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@Tuckster:"I'm fascinated by your 4th & 5th position approach, but to be honest, all this theory is wasted on me. Is there somewhere I can actually listen to this stuff? A picture is worth a thousand words,so to speak."
Well you could just try it yourself by going to my profile and playing the 4th and 5th position scales i have tabbed out. Playing in 5th sounds a lot like playing in 2d and playing in 5th IS a lot like playing in 2d. Playing in 4th is a lot like like playing in 1st, but doesn't sound at all like 1st because it puts you in a minor key.
A friend of mine recorded a performance of one of his original tunes called "Maybe Reggae" when i sat in with one of his bands. It is in G natural minor so i played an Eb harp in 5th position. I'd never played the tune before, so at a couple of points i hit some double stops that were ill-advised and didn't fit the chords particularly well, and because of my unfamiliarity with the tune (and the fact that a trombone player and guitar player were also sitting in), I was playing pretty conservatively, but otherwise it's a good example of what 5th position sounds like.
If you want to listen, go here: http://www.vytas.devicegroup.com/audio.php
You have to hit the drop down down menu and go to 2010 Vytas and his Eclectic Outfit Manhattans 0709 and click on the second track, "Maybe Reggae." Now that I know the tune I play it a little differently these days, but it's 5th position which i think is great for natural minors especially natural minor blues and natural minor reggae. i think this is the only tune I'm on. I played on others that night, but i don't think they were recorded.
The harp I'm using is a GM Buddha Harp tuned to pure ET, A442. I'm playing through an SWR acoustic bass amp with a pedal board, but the only effect I was using was delay. i used this rig because it was what I had in the trunk of my car at the time--i was not expecting to be asked to sit in that evening.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 3:16 PM
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REM
31 posts
Jan 11, 2011
2:56 PM
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chromaticblues said: "the richter tuning (as I know) was made to play the blow 123 and draw 123 chords because of the German folk music of the day. So in 1st position that would be the 1 and 2 chord."
Actually it would be the I and V chords (not the I & ii). On a C harp, for example, 1234-blow is a C-major chord (that's the I chord in first position), 1234-draw is a G-major chord (that's the V chord in first position). The ii chord (2 chord) in first position on a C harp would be a D-minor chord, which you can get by playing 456-draw.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 2:57 PM
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Andrew
1276 posts
Jan 12, 2011
2:32 AM
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Greater understanding can be achieved by this little exercise. The idea is to play in 1st position tongue-blocked, playing out of the RIGHT side of your mouth.
Play the major scale thus:
4-,1234-,4+,1234+,5-,2345-,5+,2345+,6-,3456-,6+,3456+,7+,4567+,7-,4567-.
(and then play it back down to 4- again)
Where - means blow and + means draw.
The only unsatisfactory bit is 4567+. The notes on a C harp are DFAB. To claim that it is D minor 6th is more tenuous than to claim that it is the dominant (V) with the 7th and 9th.
The notes of the dominant (V) 7th are GBDF.
The notes of the dominant (V) 7th and 9th are GBDFA (exactly the 23456 draw notes).
Other instruments will be playing the dominant 7th, enhancing the illusion that that is what you are playing, and also it will only be a passing chord on the way to the tonic.
Alternatively, if you are drawing the 7-hole and want any old chord, then including the 8-draw (D) gives a more convincing illusion of the dominant 7th.
----------
Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2011 2:38 AM
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Tuckster
809 posts
Jan 12, 2011
10:09 AM
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Hvyj- Thanks for that. It helped me get the general idea. Give me a year or 2 and I might get it.
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hvyj
1063 posts
Jan 12, 2011
10:23 AM
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@Tuckster: Just learn the 5th position minor pentatonic scale which, btw, happens to be the same breath pattern as the 2d position major pentatonic scale. Add a flat fifth to the minor pentatonic scale and you've got the blues scale. so, if you can play 2d position you should be able to play 5th with no problem--don't make it harder than it is.
Over simplified formula for playing 5th position: Use blow 2 for root, don't bend anything but draw 3, don't bend draw 3 more than a whole step and try to avoid draw 5 and draw 9 if you can. There's actually a little more to it, but you you follow this oversimplified formula it's actually pretty hard to hit a really bad note.
Root is at blow 2, blow 5, and blow 8. Flat 3 is at draw2/blow 3, blow 6 and blow 9. It ain't difficult.
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2011 10:24 AM
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nacoran
3641 posts
Jan 12, 2011
12:41 PM
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@franckriver I'm not sure on that. Maybe you could start a thread to ask it. Here is a link to a list of tunings for a bunch of harps, but the only Suzuki I see on there is the Manji. I think the rest are ET, but I'm not sure. Welcome to the forum.
Tunings
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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dougharps
20 posts
Jan 12, 2011
9:42 PM
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I agree with the theory that for amplified blues, the bullet mic does pick up the difference tones for a huge sound (like Deak, who tongue blocks). I think that chord based acoustic blues can also utilize the strengths of just intonation. I think that just tuned harps are appropriate for traditional music usually played on single row accordions in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd positions, and that the full chords work well in those styles.
I agree that single note melody lines don't sound good on just tuned harps, and sound best on equal tuned harps.
The knowledgeable give and take of ideas on this forum and this thread specifically is the equivalent of attending a seminar on Richter harmonica.
I appreciate that it is accepted in this group that there are different approaches and styles, and that we all participate to share and challenge ideas, learn, and improve our own playing. Great exchange of info!
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Doug S.
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dougharps
21 posts
Jan 12, 2011
9:50 PM
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@hvyj
I have only begun to experiment with playing in 5th position on diatonic on some songs, though I think I had stumbled into it a little while covering part of the Stones song, Under My Thumb. I kept hearing about it on Harp-L. Though I am working to improve the technique, I only occasionally overblow as I always would switch to chromatic when I needed more notes. I admire that you have developed your skill in this position. I can see why you prefer equal tuned harps.
I use fourth primarily on chromatic, which is equal tuned.
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Doug S.
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hvyj
1070 posts
Jan 13, 2011
1:51 AM
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@dougharps: Well, ANY mic is going to amplify difference tones. My point was that a bullet mic may be more sensitive to difference tones sounding less in tune on an ET harp because bullet mics don't tend to smooth anything out.
I don't play chrom very well and I don't OB at all so I had to learn multiple positions in order to get around on a diatonic harp well enough to play different kinds of material. Playing in multiple positions is just playing the instrument in different keys. 4th and 5th positions are most useful for minor key material.
Now, the trick or secret to handling 4th and 5th positions is that a player must know where the relevant scale is and the player MUST BE DISCIPLINED ABOUT BENDING. It's really not very hard BUT, you can't be bending all over the place or you will be taken out of key. You can only bend certain notes in each of these positions and you've got to be disciplined enough not to bend anything else--it's not so much what you DO bend. What you DON'T bend is more important.
The reality is that a lot of harp players are not disciplined about learning scale patterns and they bend a lot because it sounds cool, so they find multiple position playing difficult when it's really not.
Another thing (which sort of brings us back to the original topic) is that you don't have many chords that will work on the key you are playing in when you are playing in 4th and 5th positions. So a player can't wank around playing a lot chords in these positions like they might be able to get away with playing in 1st or 2d positions.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2011 2:16 AM
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GamblersHand
242 posts
Jan 13, 2011
4:21 AM
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@hvyj
Have you used country tuning for 5th position? Would seem to be ideal for the position as it avoids that nasty flat 2nd
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hvyj
1072 posts
Jan 13, 2011
4:55 AM
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@GamblersHand: No, i don't use country tuning, but what you are saying is absolutely correct. I simply avoid draw 5 and draw 9 when I'm playing in 5th position. The 2 is not in the blues scale and it's not a note that's used all that much in blues, so it's generally not a problem playing minor key blues in 5th position. Sometimes draw 5 and draw 9 can be played on the V chord since the flat 2 is the flat 5 of the V chord.
If you need major 2 in 5th position it is available if you bend draw 2 a half step. It is also available if you bend blow 9, but I usually don't play many blow bends.
But if a natural minor tune uses major 2 heavily in the melody line, I'll use 4th position instead of 5th.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2011 4:58 AM
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harpwrench
412 posts
Jan 13, 2011
8:03 AM
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Re amplified difference tones
An RE10 or 533SA stick mic often sounds just as nasty as many bullets. Other factors include the harmonica itself, player tone, and probably mostly the circuit design of the amp. On an rig that doesn't exploit the difference tones, a pedal can be used to bring them in, like the Lone Wolf Harp Octave. I'll make a video one of these days, to demonstrate the difference tone differences between JI/ET, why some of us like them so much, and when they're appropriate/not appropriate for your musical expression.
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Joe
www.spiersharmonicas.com
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groyster1
729 posts
Jan 13, 2011
8:30 AM
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glad I started this thread-it has produced a wealth of information
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The7thDave
224 posts
Jan 13, 2011
8:50 AM
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Harry Partch was a composer who became so obsessed with the differences between 12-tone ET and JI that be burned his entire catalog of 12-tone compositions and started over from scratch, building his own instruments to suit his ideas on intonation. He wrote a book about his ideas, which goes into the history of Pythagorean temperament, JI and ET, their relationship to the harmonic series, and the advantages and disadvantages of each. It's called "Genesis of a Music," and it's actually a really good read. It was out of print for a long time, but it's now available in paperback (and Kindle!)
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--Dave
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