Dirty-South Blues Harp Forum: For blues harmonica players, students, and fans

Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Why don't more pro players post on the internet?

Why don't more pro players post on the internet?

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7LimitJI 189 posts Jun 11, 2010 5:49 PM	99 % of the players I know are harp fanatics. They will talk harp till your ears bleed !! Why do you think more pro players don't grace us with their company ?? Are we not worthy? Are they too busy on the road ? Do they hate harp as its now a job for them ? Is it to maintain the mystique? Is there no money in it for them ? What do you think? This is not a moan, I am genuinely interested. My thanks goes out to Adam for starting this forum. Chris is a regular, Jason,Dennis and Brendon occasionally, thanks to them too. ---------- Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace Youtube Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off. Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 5:50 PM
Buddha 2012 posts Jun 11, 2010 5:52 PM	I know many pro players ask me why I bother... ---------- "Musicians are the architects of heaven"
7LimitJI 190 posts Jun 11, 2010 5:54 PM	@ Buddha I'm asking !! ---------- Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace Youtube Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Ray 221 posts Jun 11, 2010 5:56 PM	I'm guessing they are too busy and there is no money in it for them.
Buddha 2013 posts Jun 11, 2010 5:58 PM	I'm here to help. I know Jason likes to help and stay connected. PT likes to pretend he's not a crochety old man. I don't know about Dennis, but knowing him, it's because he likes to help. I know there are many pro players that lurk here but unless they speak up, I'm not saying who. I also know there are some pro players that lurk just to see what I'm going to say next. There are a few guys that I know who don't like answering noob questions and one in particular hates "fanboys" Again, I'm not naming names so don't ask. There are many many more pro players on harp-l. Most of the pro players I know are extremely generous with their time and knowledge but some are secretive about how they do things and what they do it with. ---------- "Musicians are the architects of heaven" Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 6:01 PM
Mojokane 40 posts Jun 11, 2010 6:14 PM	I'm asking, too!!! Here's my take.. Perhaps, being judged is unavoidable. And comments often are misunderstood. And frequently cross the line. Who needs THAT? Though, not always meant to be inflammatory. Contributing ones "two cents" is a good way to sound your depths, and to see if you have a credible voice of any kind. Some folks would rather avoid this type of vulnerability. There are alot of idiots out there, too. It took me 10 minutes (idiot)to mull over that fact. Be compassionate, because if you're not. It's a sure thing someone will call you on it. Thankyou very much. Annonymity is cool. But getting out and recieving some stimuli, is good. Cruel and abusive attacks have no place. Remember Ginger? So there are some ideas for possible reasons. I contribute when I see a thread I can relate to. Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 6:15 PM
Nastyolddog 902 posts Jun 11, 2010 6:54 PM	There are a few guys that I know who don't like answering noob questions Chris these buttholes are not real musicians we don't need them as much as they don't need us:) and one in particular hates "fanboys" sexist butthole Im sure he likes fan girls:( yep we don't need him either:( i come in contact with like minded Buttholes above it's funny can't work out why they don't like me calling them wankers, go away i don't want to talk to you there the guys you see sitting in the corner at Gigs by them self, while the rest of the real Musos hang around bench talking to who ever askes questions:) it was at our club run jam we invited this guy who thought he was shit hot to come along have a blow, well ok he could play but nothing ground breaking or better than best players in our club, we found out real quick this guy was arogant and down right full of him self befor he got to play, Ahole ended sitting in the corner all by himself getting ready to Blow us away with his expertise ok time to shine:) Bro's i didn't plane it i waited for him to introduce himself on stage, said to my Bro next to me out loud this guy is an asshole i'm going outside for a smoke,,,i don't smoke all my clubys walked outside with me and our regular fellow muso's followed, we stayed outside his whole set while the rest of the drunks listened on, about all 12 of them while my clubbys and Muso freinds all had a good bench talk:) funny he cut his set short didn't even bother to thank us for letting him play our Gig, packed his gear walked out never to be seen again at out jam nights:) he speaks very highly of me these days and took the time to tell every one i know what an asshole i am, he's become very popular around town so much so that he pulled 30 people to his last gig:) who needs these kind of guys? so thanks Chris and all the Pro's on MBH Forum:) for being true Musicians:) Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2010 4:01 AM
waltertore 652 posts Jun 11, 2010 6:57 PM	Here is my take as a 20 year pro that quit full time before these forums appeared. Are we not worthy? Yes we are worthy. Are they too busy on the road ? yes and no. Most pros tour in waves. A month(s) out and then home, usually to a town that allows them gigs. If they are a superstar, then they can live anywhere they want! Do they hate harp as its now a job for them ? I doubt they hate it and the most successful have to view it as a job or they will never get famous. Is it to maintain the mystique? No, I think these forums have too many mentally unstable people on them. At least they are mentally unstable when they post. In the flesh they most likely are more like the wizard of oz - big as long as the curtain of mystique (the internet) shields them from flesh to flesh encounters. Is there no money in it for them ? They probably could make more money participating on these forums, but then again their honest opinions might shock a lot of people. What do you think? The "pros" that post here and on most forums hardly gig at all and if they do, they do it pretty much local (I am one). We are no longer calling music our main income. At best it is enough to buy a few new harps when needed. We have lots of time on our hands and miss the days of playing out full time. these forums offer some sort of connection to those days. Try doing 200+ dates a year around the world on cheap hotels, bad food, bad pay, sick, bad sound systems, no audiences alot of the time, and bad accomodations. It wears you out to the point that when you get some free time, you don't want to get bogged down with negative stuff. Most forums have enough of this element to keep the full time playing pros away. I think the internet is too unstable for these guys to get involved. I have had people encourage me to keep posting my take on things and the life I led. Others seem to despise me because I did what maybe they only dream about doing. Who knows but the fact is there are always people that will despise ones that have lived their dreams. These people wear on me to the point that I often am ready to pull the plug on this scene. I know when my gig calendar increases, I post much less. That live playing makes me less likely to post because I get interaction in the flesh. Nothing personal, but I prefer my interactions to be flesh to flesh vs. a youtube, mp3, or post. There are a lot of clear, honest folks the pros would love to connect with, but it is that bad apple syndrome again. Even live this is true. You often will get drunk idiots trying to monopolize your time while the kind, respectful person sits and waits for them to leave. Oftentimes if the musician doesn't tell them to leave, they will stay till the lights are turned out, and that true fan get shafted. Also most musicians today are struggling so bad to survive, they fear posting on these forums because it could easily get warped and a spread a lot of bad press on them. These forums are full of mediocre to poor players that spout like they are masters and if called on it lash out viciously. ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller 2,000 of my songs continuous streaming - 200 most current songs my videos Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 7:29 PM
JDH 150 posts Jun 11, 2010 7:23 PM	Walter, as one of the mediocre players, I'm really glad to have you here, if not for you, I would have never registered. I was always too lazy to try to make a living at music, I find it rewarding to just connect with guys that have, Anyone that is so petty as to resent your life is certainly unworthy of your time. JD ----------
kudzurunner 1563 posts Jun 11, 2010 7:28 PM	Some pros would rather play than talk about playing. A few of us like doing both. I belonged to Harp-L briefly when I was actively touring, back in the mid-1990s. It horrified me. It was small-spirited, ingrown, and brutal. It was scholasticism at its least inspiring: How many free reeds can fit on the head of a pin? The spirit that actually drove me to want to practice hard and create new music simply wasn't in evidence there. Neither was the spirit of active brotherhood that flows through most of the stages I've shared with a wide range of blues players. I'd hoped that this forum would be a different kind of place, but it's clear that the Harp-L spirit is here too, although there's just enough of a different kind of spirit here--the spirit of positive inquiry and respectful listening rather than bluster, insult, negativity--that I haven't yet shut this forum down. (I'm cheered, as I hope others are, by the deep, thoughtful, and generous posts contributed by WalterTore, Buddha, and BBQBob, among others. The four of us don't always see eye to eye, but we're able to disagree, sometimes starkly, and still manifest respect) But from time to time I've thought about shutting it down. There's already one Harp-L. This forum should be different. There's your answer. I'd encourage everybody to reread the forum creed, which distinguishes this forum from Harp-L, and ask themselves whether they've aligned themselves with it and honored it. It requests some fairly quaint things, but they make a difference, and I'm serious about them. Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 7:40 PM
waltertore 653 posts Jun 11, 2010 7:37 PM	Thanks JDH! You are an inspiration for me to keep sharing my stories and my way of learning/playing/seeing music. Soon all the great bluesmen will be dead and my generation will be the last one that had direct living, touring, friendships, mentorships with them. Adam: I could never run this forum or any forum. It makes me dizzy to think how much time you spend dealing with idiots, spammers, etc. I have no paitence for such people in the flesh and via the net they seem 100x's worse. I am thankful for you having the inspiration to have this forum just like I am thankful for good school administrators so I can teach in peace in my little classroom. If you shut this thing down tomorrow I would miss it but would have total respect for your decision. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller 2,000 of my songs continuous streaming - 200 most current songs my videos Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 7:39 PM
Greg Heumann 518 posts Jun 11, 2010 8:12 PM	I know a few of these pros pretty well. They are SO BUSY. On the road, in the studio, planning the next CD, etc. They certainly don't have as much to gain from participation as most of us do. And they're good people. Participation at all creates an expectation (naive though it may be) that they'll be happy to answer any and all questions, and promptly at that. Shortly, they're barraged with way more questions than they can possibly deal with. I saw this happen to Jason. I know it happens to Charlie and Kim as well. So they're sort of damned if they do, damned if they don't - but at least if they don't, they're not "actively" pissing people off. I totally understand their lack of participation. ---------- /Greg BlowsMeAway Productions BlueState - my band Bluestate on iTunes Last Edited by on Jun 11, 2010 8:13 PM
2holebend 5 posts Jun 11, 2010 8:17 PM	Wow!!!!!! I'm so new to this gig I am not quite sure how to take a lot of this spewage. But Walter and Adam, thanks for gettin the ship back on track. Adam knows me (JT) and my rookiness as a genuine aspiring harp novice. I just wanna hear about the music...and good ideas. Live and give, share and care (to steal a line from a good song). Keep it true folks. I recently met a pro harp player who has been over and above with his time and ideas for a rook like me. He is a great player, and is so willing to share his experience with me. That's all I care about...who cares about folks that are downers...they deserve no ink here...just play the Blues!!!! Love the forum!!!!
Joe_L 362 posts Jun 11, 2010 8:50 PM	@7LimitJI - You've read what some people write. You've seen how hyper-critical people can be. Here is another way to look at it. Why would they want to contribute to a forum like this? What's in it for them? A couple of months back, there was a thread that started off with a video posting from one of Hummel's Blowouts. The subjects in the video were: Mark Hummel, Rod Piazza, Kim Wilson and Bharath Rajakumar. Members of this forum ripped the video apart like a swarm of piranhas on a bloody carcass. There was no respect or appreciation for what these guys do on a daily basis. There was zero respect for where these guys have come from and how they learned. If you were one of those four guys, why would you want to post in a place that is highly inhospitable. Additionally, Walter Tore raises a very good point. About 15 years ago, I used to post regularly on BLUES-L. There were some great discussion among serious Blues people like Dick Shurman, Scott Dirks, Mary Katherine Aldin and others. I learned a lot of stuff from those folks. Unfortunately, there were morons that ruined it. One guy in particular sent death threats to several members of the list including myself. He was addicting to prescription pain meds and had a very volatile personality. It was easier for people to leave and the first to go were the people that were the most knowledgeable. Once they left, there was little reason to stick around. I suspect that pro players may have similar experiences. Since the mid-90's, there have been Internet chats with pro players. Blues is a real niche market. Attendance is slim to non-existent. If you are making your time available to people and few show up or are knuckleheads, it's a lousy vibe. Look at the attendance on the chats at harmonicaspace.com. It wasn't uncommon to see two people show up.
Buddha 2015 posts Jun 11, 2010 10:53 PM	"Unfortunately, there were morons that ruined it. One guy in particular sent death threats to several members of the list including myself. He was addicting to prescription pain meds and had a very volatile personality." I've received several death threats and it's the sole reason I have talked about my dogs and shanking somebody in the kidney. Most people are full of shit with their threats but I was getting it enough that I felt it necessary to put some of that information out there for some of those idiots to think twice. I'm really not as crazy as y'all think or am I? moooowhahahahahahahaha! ---------- "Musicians are the architects of heaven"
captainbliss 135 posts Jun 12, 2010 3:32 AM	@kudzurunner, @Buddha, @Greg Heumann: /I'm here to help./ I'm hoping that your online presence isn't just altruistic generosity? Hopefully being on (indeed running, in Adam's case) the forums helps you to sell what it is you have to sell (downloads, custom harmonicas, mics, etc.)? I say "hoping" because all of you have have very good products, crafted with a lot of skill and hard work and I'd like to think your businesses are doing OK! @waltertore: /I think these forums have too many mentally unstable people on them. At least they are mentally unstable when they post. In the flesh they most likely are more like the wizard of oz - big as long as the curtain of mystique (the internet) shields them from flesh to flesh encounters./ Wonderfully put. And... Something every forum user should keep at the forefront of his/her mind. @All: Is it just me, or is there some weird tendency for would-be players to engage in some weird kind of critical masturbation over YouTube videos rather than practising and getting out gigging? If I were, say, a Jason Ricci or a Kim Wilson, I'd probably want to stay away from people who fetishise / slate / drool over bootleg videos in an odd and disturbing way that suggests I somehow belong to them, that I'm just an object to be adored / detested / argued over... (Does that make any sense?) @Buddha: /Most of the pro players I know are extremely generous with their time and knowledge/ This has been my experience, too. Overwhelmingly so, in fact. I suppose the answer to 7LimitJI's question may have something to do with whether the recipients of said time and knowledge are normally anywhere near as generous and as gracious... EDIT: Harp-L doesn't seem so bad, at least in the last couple of years. Not that I read every post, mind you... xxx Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 3:38 AM
7LimitJI 192 posts Jun 12, 2010 3:50 AM	Great replies, guys. Well thought out, with much food for thought. I was playing devils advocate. With the rhetorical questions above just to get the conversation going. I think Joe and Walter have summed it up best. Although I've been playing a while, I'm new to internet forums. I've learned lots of stuff about harps and amps,and enjoy the banter, until it gets personal. It is a shame and I do hope people take Adam's advise and re-read the forum creed. I have. Think how good it could be if we could get more top players to participate. @ Buddha I had no idea about the threats, and can understand your response. ---------- Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace Youtube Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Chinaski 93 posts Jun 12, 2010 4:04 AM	@captainbliss: yes, it makes perfect sense. I can think of at least a couple of prolific posters who like to fetishise/argue seemingly just for the sake of it, which is pretty tiresome.. As you say, practicing and getting out gigging is likely to be a little more productive for such people.. ---------- Myspace Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 6:10 AM
Mojokane 42 posts Jun 12, 2010 4:49 AM	..any fool can get a computer and rant on forums...there is so much we don't really know about who jumps in. It becomes apparent, then, "tiresome". Thanks to Adam, this is possible..good or bad..I don't mean that in a negative way. Group hug...
kudzurunner 1564 posts Jun 12, 2010 5:59 AM	@CaptainBliss: I can't speak for Greg Heumann, since his signature line does indeed direct people towards his website, but after spending some time with him at Hill Country Harmonica, I'm willing to bet that he and Chris participate here to the extent that they do for the same reason that I participate here: because we are village explainers who have accrued some hard-won experience and knowledge--all three of us as players, but also Greg as a mic designer, Chris as a harp customizer and jazz explorer, me as a touring player (many blues, folk, and jazz festivals) and cultural studies academic--and we enjoy sharing and testing that knowledge. I strongly suspect that this forum's insane amount of traffic raises the overall visibility of my website and thus helps my business, but my own participation in the forum isn't motivated by a desire to drive business to the slightest extent. It's motivated by a strong desire to do my part to help create a community of creative amateurs and professionals; to share some thoughts on issues that my gigging experience and professional (academic) training has taught me how to think about; and--the extent to which I push the envelope to the chagrin of some forum members--to shift the balance of the conversation in a way that opens up some space within the blues harmonica world for what seems to me like creativity in the direction of the word "modern," since "traditional," as I see it, currently dominates the conversation among those who might be called aficionados. Don't get me wrong: I love the way that Wilt Chamberlain and Earl the Pearl Monroe play. I just think that basketball has evolved since then, and I don't want this forum to be a place where people sit around discussing the fine points of leading basketball styles from many decades ago as though they're all that contemporary players can and should aspire to. (Please see additional note below.) Same thing with skateboarding moves from the 60s. Same thing with Jean-Claude Killy's skiing moves. The sports have developed--and they've developed because each sport was sustained by a culture the placed a heavy emphasis on innovation. This is particularly true of basketball and skateboarding, with skateboarding in turn driving snowboarding and aerial (X-Games) skiing. A desire to escape the ghetto clearly drives relentless innovation in basketball--come up with a dynamic new move that gets you to the basket faster and you might be the next MJ--but skateboarding seems to be driven by something else and I like the example because it makes clear that the white boys CAN push into the modernist zone when they want to. All by way of saying that neither profit (at all) nor altruism (really) drives my participation as a forum member. Vision and passion do. I believe that the minority position that I espouse needs a spokesperson; my passion to explore, defend, and--yes--critique my own position leads me to participate. But really I'd be a better player if I just practiced more, and I may just do that. *ADDITIONAL NOTE: There's nothing wrong with retro movements, as long as with they're honest about what they are and as long as they don't try to confuse people into thinking that they're actually contemporary forms of practice. Swing dancing--jitterbugging--is an excellent example. It began, as early as the 1920s, as primarily a black dance form--the black dancers were the innovators--but there were always white popularizers (Vernon and Irene Reid were pioneers) and by the late 1930s, jitterbugging was a mass movement. The way that race works in America meant that mass white participation tended to drive black innovation. The crazy stuff that goes on in movies like Hellzapoppin' and that is replicated in Spike Lee's Malcolm X was that last stage of black innovation, as I understand it. Then black popular interest in swing dancing essentially dissolved. I don't know the full history of the retro swing movement, but I've seen two documentaries and I know that it was driven by a loving collaboration between middle-aged white dancers and older black dancers of the earlier generation. I went to several events in NYC in the late 1980s. From what I can tell, the terrain of contemporary/retro swing dancing is essentially the terrain limned--outlined--by the last generation of aggressively innovative black dancers of the early 1940s. (One of our forum members knows all about this, I believe, and will surely correct me if I'm wrong.) Now, that's all well and good. Nothing wrong with confining onself to, and taking delight in, an older style--UNLESS one simultaneously casts a gimlet eye on contemporary dance, the whole wide world of innovation and post swing styles, including hip hop dance and hybrids like Savion Glover's angry reinventions of tap, and say, "I don't see anything new or worthwhile going on. It's all been done before. Anyway, the new stuff is too fast, too complicated. It's just noise. It doesn't have any feeling or finesse. Old school is best." I'm burlesquing a position here for the sake of raising consciousness, but I'm not burlesquing it very much. The thing that the people who hold to this position invariably forget is that the stuff they love--in this case, the sort of swing dancing that reached a peak in the early 1940s--struck the "traditionalists" of its own era as too fast, too complicated, too new. That's why the old folks, the parents, in the late 1930s though that Benny Goodman and his ballrooms full of jitterbuggers were actually a social menace in the late 1930s. I greatly respect the professionalism of Mark Hummel and those he brings into his "blowoff" stages--as long as it's understood that what he's doing is essentially staging a retro swing-dance competition for those who prefer that sort of thing, I'm absolutely fine with it, and I can actually appreciate it. But it's clear that many people believe that REAL contemporary dance, so to speak, begins and ends with such theatrical exhibitions. I don't. A much more interesting sort of exhibition would feature, for example, Hummel, Kim, and Bharath paired with Jason, Sugar Blue, and L.D. Miller. When Hummel stages THAT blowoff, I'll fly in, pay good money for my ticket, and shake his hand. A little more risk, please. Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 6:42 AM
captainbliss 137 posts Jun 12, 2010 7:15 AM	@kudzurunner: /I'm willing to bet that he and Chris participate here to the extent that they do for the same reason that I participate here: because we are village explainers who have accrued some hard-won experience and knowledge--all three of us as players, but also Greg as a mic designer, Chris as a harp customizer and jazz explorer, me as a touring player (many blues, folk, and jazz festivals) and cultural studies academic--and we enjoy sharing and testing that knowledge [...] my own participation in the forum isn't motivated by a desire to drive business to the slightest extent. It's motivated by a strong desire to do my part to help create a community of creative amateurs and professionals; to share some thoughts on issues that my gigging experience and professional (academic) training has taught me how to think about/ (at risk of going all Facebook) captainbliss likes this. xxx
Greg Heumann 521 posts Jun 12, 2010 7:58 AM	I can't speak for Chris but you're right about me. A) I enjoy helping others learn. It forces me to analyze my own thoughts, opinions, techniques in ways that I might not otherwise - which in turn helps me learn more. I learn from others and greatly appreciate them - I think it is my duty to pay back when I can. B) Absolutely it is good for my business and I am aware of that. It IS part of my motivation for participating on this forum - I'd be lying if I pretended it was 100% altruistic. Especially when they need some guidance or advice, people prefer to do business with someone they believe understands their needs. If people get to know me a bit through my posts, I hope they will come to trust me a bit and that when they need something I can provide, they'll think of me. ---------- /Greg BlowsMeAway Productions BlueState - my band Bluestate on iTunes Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 8:01 AM
Tin Lizzie 85 posts Jun 12, 2010 9:33 AM	I find this forum a pretty inhospitable place. This attitude about modern versus retro is both incorrect and insulting. Basically, if you don't (and I don't) subscribe to Adam's view of what is modern, you are retro and have no mind of your own. There are several people on the forum who have a serious case of testosterone poisoning and that, combined with a dog pack mentality, makes for some vicious threads. Once in a while I find a gem, but most of the time it's a huge waste of time. Too bad. Oh, and I forgot to mention, most of your attitudes toward women are pretty retro and make me feel like I am back in the fifties... ---------- Tin Lizzie Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 9:37 AM
Buddha 2019 posts Jun 12, 2010 9:55 AM	Yes I build harps and yes this forum helps with my business but I have always been Teacher First, Player second and businessman last. I've been a part of various forums long before I ever had CDs and Harps to sell. I love teaching and I love helping others. As Greg mentioned, teaching and helping forces me to analyze what I and others do to get the next level of development. When guys like Adam, myself and other pros were learning to play, we didn't have youtube, we didn't have CD and DVDs we just had LPs and live experience. For me it was a lot of work to learn the harmonica. I have always had the mindset that I want to be known as one of the "best" harmonica players ever and part of being the "best" means helping others become more than I ever could. If I had a hand in helping one of you guys get to the top of world with the harmonica, then I couldn't be happier. It's like having a musical child that you help nurture and become the best they could be. I probably have a few kids in a few different states and countries - hey, I'm a musician [shrugs shoulders] but until the kids come forth and want money, knowledge and a relationship, you guys are it. ---------- "Musicians are the architects of heaven"
7LimitJI 193 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:05 AM	"This attitude about modern versus retro is both incorrect and insulting. Basically, if you don't (and I don't) subscribe to Adam's view of what is modern, you are retro and have no mind of your own." Well said Lizzie ! I wouldn't give up just yet though, there are a lot of good people here. Also the best way to make change is from within. ---------- Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace Youtube Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
shanester 81 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:09 AM	Buddha, you are certainly a prolific poster and I want to thank you for your generosity. I have gleaned much from what you share, and I truly respect you as someone who is expanding the reach of the diatonic harp! Tin Lizzie, I totally get what you are saying. Keep in mind that this forum I believe has thousands of members, although certainly a much smaller number actually post. Don't let a few closeted trolls turn you off on the whole deal! It's probably less than ten people who consistently piss you off. I always wonder how they would act face to face. Also I would not attribute it to "testosterone poisoning". In my opinion statements like that only reinforce the sexism. I would attribute it more to a lack of grace. I think that's what the world needs a lot more of...of course we could just keep fighting and hurting and fearing and stealing from each other... Anyhow, soapbox over. I checked out your playing Tin Lizzie and you sound great! Keep harping!
barbequebob 906 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:22 AM	The kind of thing Joe L brings up is one of the reasons why you won't see a lot of pros on forums and I've seen quite a few on Harp-L get badly disrespected on forums that it made me want to puke my guts out. One time on Harp-L, on one of the last times Jason Ricci posted on there, there was a guy who emailed him offlist that was really horribly bigoted (in Jason's case, very anti-gay), and it turned out, this guy I had seen at a number of my gigs, and some of the venom he shot at Jason's way was pretty appalling, and that is being ULTRA POLITE about it. I should've known this guy was essentially 99 cents short of a Dollar upstairs because on a page on my website, I had listed the gear I'd been using for those curious to know what I use, and this fool kept emailing me if I was selling any of these and several times I had to tell him none of it was for sale and it it was, I'd have a listing as being specifically for sale, but it never got thru for a long time. Jason posted some of those things and I was pretty shocked and told him I don't condone any of that kind of bullsht at all and he knows that. This moron got himself banned from Harp-L and I haven't seen him around in years. That's just an example of the kind of things one has to put up with on these forums, especially people who are TOO fanatical to the point of being dangerous and the debate of to overblow or not to overblow often borders on that a lot as far as I'm concerned. There is another thing many of you don't realize is that many of these pros are full time bandleaders and like managers in a business, your time is extremely valuable and there are many more pressing issues that need to be dealt with 24/7/365 than participating in any kind of forum. As a bandleader, you are on call 24/7/365, often being married to the phone, having to be in constant touch with your booking agent (that is, if you have one), confirming gigs (and you not only have to do that several months in advance, but also a month, then 2 weeks, then 1 week, and then 24 hours prior), confirm lodging, getting directions and logistics squared away, setting up and dealing with interviews, long amounts of travel, often not getting anywhere near enough sleep needed, and this is just for starters. A number of players like a Mark Hummel, for his US gigs, does all of his own booking by himself and so it's his job to make all travel arrangements, lodging arrangements, and just about everything, and trust me, from experience, it is a SHTLOAD OF FREAKING HARD WORK. This is clearly enough to get you mentally fried like hell and all of that responsibility is clearly on your shoulders. Even though I've listed these things bandleaders have to do, I still haven't mentioned all that they have to do and so that leaves them with, in reality, little real down time to participate in forums and I don't blame them one bit and that is one incredibly thankless job that absolutely HAS to get done, like it or not. I personally enjoy helping out in whatever way I can, but giving tips is one thing, but real out and out teaching, especially with a student coming from absolute ground zero is very difficult and teaching IMO, is an art to itself, and much like professional athletes, a lot of great players are often horrible at teaching as a lot of great athletes are often horrible coaches. Why? Something that one has done without really having to think about it for a long time, not everyone is able to express it in a way that can be easily broken down so that a student can digest it. It is also why I stopped teaching on a regular basis many years ago and it does take a lot of patience as giving a quick tip is much easier than true out and out teaching. Buddha's last two paragraphs of his last post is largely the same opinion that I have personally on the same subject as well. As far as Harp-L is concerned, I agree that the present day tone of Harp-L is far better than it once was, but there still are tastes of how god awful nasty it often was earlier, and unfortunately onthis forum, I've seen far too many instances where I've seen the exact same thing, and when pros see this kind of nonsense, why the hell should they bother at all??? Why would anyone of them in their right mind EVER want to put up with that kind of crap, especially given the long hours of work and hardships that they've had to endure to hone their craft??? It's a lot easier to criticize than to actually take time to hone your craft, and that's being polite about it. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Joe_L 365 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:26 AM	I'm really sorry I attempted to answer the original question. I didn't think it would go off topic and back into the "modern vs traditional" discussion.
Tin Lizzie 86 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:43 AM	Joe_L.... notice that it was Adam that turned that post that direction. He really is on a soapbox, speaking of soapboxes. And I know, Adam, that you think you have an important "modern" mission. But be careful. That kind of sureness about what is true is very dangerous. Look at history. And look at what happens here. The most vicious attacks here come from people who follow you blindly. If you really do want it to be a more civil place, encourage diversity. And don't be condescending toward those who are on a different path. You as the leader and owner of the forum have a responsibility to see that those of us who do not agree with with your beliefs are not the enemy. You can learn the most from people who are different than you but it requires a respectful relationship. Shanester... thank you. 7LimitJI.... I wish we could meet and talk somewhere besides enemy territory. It's a beautiful day here after a way too long rainy spell. I'm going into that world now.... ---------- Tin Lizzie Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 10:45 AM
kudzurunner 1565 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:46 AM	@TinLizzie: I'm afraid you're wrong about me. All you need to do is come up with some good arguments that engage what I've actually written, rather than irritably holding up your hand and saying "Talk to the hand." I do my best to state my opinions clearly and forcefully, but I'm also careful to qualify my factual assertions when I'm not 100% sure about them, and I'm always open to somebody saying, "I disagree with you, here's why," and offering clear, forceful, and evidenced claims that seek to change my mind. As for this place being inhospitable to women: you're quite right that it's occasionally been like that, and every time I've seen that going on, I've tried to stop it in its tracks. You're welcome. Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 10:47 AM
JDH 152 posts Jun 12, 2010 10:56 AM	I'm pretty new to the internet, got my first computer 4 years ago. I find all the forums to be about 90% worthless babble, but keep coming around because of that other 10%. Every forum I've visited pushes me away more than it draws me in. It seems there is always a clique that would prefer everyone agree with their concepts. I'm not a pro in that I've never made a living playing, but I have played since the 60's, I play every day, love the blues, and on a good day, I like the way I play. But pro or no pro, I can see many reasons to not want to participate in forums. Unfortunately I have had an excess of free time for the past few months and just have nothing better to do. That too will pass, I hope! "Modern" has always told me that I don't really belong here. This may be the thread that sends me down the road, it sounds as though there's only room for the "modern" thinkers here.
kudzurunner 1566 posts Jun 12, 2010 11:03 AM	Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 11:04 AM
Ev630 602 posts Jun 12, 2010 11:09 AM	Lizzie nailed it. Adam, to pretend that Lizzie is being obtuse - and to fail to admit that you yourself start or fuel provocative threads - is disingenuous. I enjoy this forum a lot. I don't mind the argy bargy and I'm never backward in coming forward. But I do resent attempts to spin what happens here and paint one side as the paladins of virtue.
Kingley 1247 posts Jun 12, 2010 11:33 AM	I agree with Tin Lizzie on this one. You have opened the can of worms again Adam with the soapbox rhetoric. It really is a shame, because what was looking to be a insightful thread into the pro musicians mindset is now risking being sidetracked by such banal issues as "modern vs traditional". I would guess that it's things like those pointless discussions amongst other reasons that pro players don't post here much. Is it really asking too much that for once we can have a thread that stays on topic and that it does not become another "my way is better than your way" diatribe? Last Edited by on Jun 12, 2010 12:07 PM
Delta Dirt 163 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:11 PM	@Tin Lizzie I agree. @Ev630 Thank you.
htownfess 127 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:20 PM	What this campfire needs is a plastic jug of moonshine tossed in a high arc, plummeting heavily into the midst of the flames, scattering coals in the instant before . . . anybody who's game, take a little time to read a (secular) essay by C.S. Lewis that perhaps deserves to be much better known, if only as one of the better graduation speeches in human history (delivered in London in 1944, IIRC). Does anyone else find it entirely too relevant to their ambivalent relationship to the MBH forum? And do the concluding paragraphs strike anyone as an explanation of why big harp pros are seldom active Internet forum participants? The Inner Ring
isaacullah 1016 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:33 PM	I don't understand this stuff. This forum is called MODERN Blues Harmonica. It's in the name! It's not called "General" Blues Harmonica forum. What's there to discuss about it? Let's get off this silly, stale old topic, and get on with the good stuff (remember when I wrote in a post that, due to my tight schedule, one of theonly times I get to practices is when I'm in the bathroom? And everyone freaked out that I actually play harp while sh*tting? Now THAT was some great discussion!) ---------- ------------------ View my videos on YouTube!"
harmonicanick 775 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:36 PM	who cares?? USA 1 England 1 Half time....
Buddha 2022 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:38 PM	note to self: Do Not play Isaacullah's harmonicas. EVER! ---------- "Musicians are the architects of heaven"
isaacullah 1018 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:47 PM	Soon to be USA 2, England 1 at the end of the second! ;) And to Buddha: don't worry, I clean my harps every 4 years... Did I mention I've been playing for a little over 3 years now? ---------- ------------------ View my videos on YouTube!"
nacoran 2097 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:48 PM	I have all the time in the world, but even I don't read EVERY thread. It's quite possible to miss things that are going on around here, even if you are on the look out. It's always hard to argue with the boss. Sometimes it's hard on a forum to draw the distinction between when someone is talking as someone who is running a website and someone who is a participating member. I think I've seen issues with that with responses to some of Adam's posts, and I've felt it a couple times when I've said something about something I've thought was offensive and it was hard to draw the line between whether I was trying to act as a moderator or a member. On some sites moderators deliberately have a separate log in for when they are acting in an official capacity. I always feel kind of trapped. I'm obviously not the harp player that some of you are. I've tried, a couple times, when I've seen things I felt were offensive, to step up about it, but it's always lead to blow outs. I'm not even sure in my head where the line needs to be. I'm torn between my rabid free speech inner me and my admittedly liberal-based thought process on what is offensive and what isn't. Here's the thing though. Take the one time regular who recently left over issues of religious debate. It blind sided me. I try to leave my religion out of the forum, but even in trying to do that it wasn't possible. I spoke up on something that offended me, and suddenly, by omission, I hadn't spoken up on other issues that offended other people. The thing is, I'm not a mind reader. I've tried to fight a couple 'isms' on here, but the groups I've tried to defend haven't chimed in to back me up. Maybe we need to have an honest question. It's Adam's forum. It always will be, but what do you all think about swearing in all it's forms, posting links to pole dancing contests or of men in giant penis costumes or even possibly of over-sensitive leftist hypocrites trying to take a stand on these things? I'm sort of worn out trying to figure out whether I'm supposed to be a traffic cop, a guy with his finger on the scale, a guy with a camcorder passively recording what's going on or what. As long as I know which one it is I'm fine. I was happier as a rank and file member, but as part of trying to take on some responsibility in my life I agreed to take on a little more responsibility. I haven't ended up in the funny farm yet, and I'm willing to keep going, but I'd kind of like to know the rules of engagement and the general mission. It's Adam's forum, but ultimately Adam's posts are a small fraction of the total posts. He can lead it one way or another, but we are the horse that has to drink the Kool Aid. What flavor Kool Aid does everyone want? ---------- Nate Facebook
harmonicanick 777 posts Jun 12, 2010 12:49 PM	@isacullah in your dreams mate
Joe_L 366 posts Jun 12, 2010 1:06 PM	My how we have strayed off topic. Nate - I prefer grape. Thanks.
shanester 82 posts Jun 12, 2010 1:08 PM	Nate you do a great job. I think the forum is fine, and you should do no more than be true to the forum creed. Maybe you should note when you are speaking as a member or a moderator. I can respect separating business from pleasure. I think if some people were truly straight about what they want from the forum, it would be to argue, complain and convince people that their viewpoint is "right", which is ultimately a fruitless endeavor. As long a people perceive different "teams", "camps", "schools of thought" etc., there will be rancorous debates about who is right, true, noble or whatever. Hats off to you for taking responsibility around here. Few are willing to do that. I appreciate the time you give and the commitment you have to the harmonica community! Shane
2holebend 7 posts Jun 12, 2010 9:39 PM	What does any of this stuff have to do with playing the harmonica? Many here seem to be in the prose one-up category. Let's talk music. Adam has a big heart, we all know that. Met him....cool dude. There's no agenda here. 7LimitJl...what a topic. Amazing how it splintered into chaos. Do you guys (gals too Tin Lizzie) ever play, or just wax on this gig? Oh well, I guess we are all different,so that's good, right? Note to self: Please never let politics, or old vs new, or girl vs guy or straight vs gay, or wooden vs plastic, or mommas vs poppas ever skew my enthusiasm for leaning how to better my harp playin'...that just aint right.
Blown Out Reed 180 posts Jun 12, 2010 9:46 PM	Hats off to the Pros Here Thanks P.S. I'll still take the Doctor, Magic and Bird ---------- "Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress." — John Wooden
7LimitJI 194 posts Jun 13, 2010 3:54 AM	@ 2holebend I play ! Have a look at some videos of the band on youtube and myspace. @Lizzie. "7LimitJI.... I wish we could meet and talk somewhere besides enemy territory." I'm on the wrong side of the pond I'm afraid :o( Over in Bonnie Scotland. ---------- Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace Youtube Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off. Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2010 3:59 AM
Ev630 603 posts Jun 13, 2010 3:57 AM	7LimitJI - you have to expect some metacommentary of the "why are we discussing stuff on a forum instead of playing" kind in every thread. There's a roster and it was simply BOR's turn.
7LimitJI 195 posts Jun 13, 2010 4:06 AM	@ Ev630 I don't mind. I've learned to separate the wheat from the chaff. ---------- Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace Youtube Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off. Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2010 4:06 AM
htownfess 129 posts Jun 13, 2010 8:12 AM	@2holebend: Like many others here, I use the same handle on YouTube. It never hurts to do your homework before you speculate about people's playing credentials. Why don't you take a look and come back and tell us what you think? There is a 2holebend on YouTube--is that you? And as far as prose goes, some on this forum are prose pros, so sometimes prose is the way it goes, it can't all be videos, you know--I'd have put up a video of Lewis's speech if there was one, but I guess in London in 1944, they had other things to do. @JoeL: I don't think one can discuss pro participation in forums without discussing forum dynamics, and I feel the Lewis link is entirely relevant. The gist is that it is better in moral terms to work at one's craft/art rather than vie for status in groups like this forum: "If in your working hours you make the work your end, you will presently find yourself all unawares inside the only circle in your profession that really matters. You will be one of the sound craftsmen, and other sound craftsmen will know it. This group of craftsmen will by no means coincide with the Inner Ring or the Important People or the People in the Know. It will not shape that professional policy or work up that professional influence which fights for the profession as a whole against the public: nor will it lead to those periodic scandals and crises which the Inner Ring produces. But it will do those things which that profession exists to do and will in the long run be responsible for all the respect which that profession in fact enjoys and which the speeches and advertisements cannot maintain." Most pros would rather make the case for their kind of playing by playing, rather than talking about it. Adam is a prose pro as well as a pro, so it's natural for him to make the conceptual as well as the concrete case for what he sees as modern blues harmonica. But most pros are focused on a different community. @TinLizzie: I think an interesting topic would be whether there are blues harmonica players who transcend the binary opposition of traditional/modern, but that needs to be another thread.

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