Rick Davis
337 posts
Apr 27, 2010
10:08 AM
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The Cruncher amp from Gary Onofrio is a very fine product, and Gary is a good guy who has a lot of enthusiasm for what he does. This comparison is not meant to disparage either of them.
The Mission Chicago amp does not directly compete against the Cruncher: It costs hundreds of dollars less. But the Chicago amp has tone and features that the Cruncher just cannot match.
First, let’s examine a couple of substantive claims Gary makes for his amp on his website:
*** Only builder using NOS paper-in-oil caps. Not true. The Chicago amp uses NOS Military-grade Paper in Oil tone capacitors. In fact, several harp amp builders use PIO caps. If you Google a bit you can easily find them.
Gary’s response has been that our PIO caps are Russian, and somehow Russian products are inferior. However, Gary uses Russian tubes in his amps. I helped test the K-40Y caps in a blind test against other good caps, including the Vitamin Q. The K-40Ys were noticeably warmer. Most of the caps made no sonic difference at all.
*** Only builder to give you the flexibility to tweak the amp for your own sound.......not dictate it to you by their stock setup. Not True. The Mission Chicago Amp offers MUCH more flexibility. You can switch from Cathode Biased to Fixed Bias on the fly. (Cathode Bias amps are crunchier with more compression; Fixed Bias amps are punchier and generally louder). You can use 6V6 power tubes for a more vintage sound, without re-biasing. Any 12AX7, 12AY7, 12AT7, 5751, 5965, 12AV7, or 12AU7 can be used in the preamp stages for various tunings.
When used with the 6L6s, you can use any normal octal socket rectifier such as: 5Y3G or GT, 5R4, 5U4G or B, 5V4G or GA, 5AR4, GZ30 or a GZ34. Tweak the amp's tone to your liking with any of these changes.
The DEEP switch on the Chicago amp works like the loudness switch on vintage Hi-Fi equipment. It changes the curve of the tone stack, boosting lows and fattening the tone. As you can see, the Chicago is a pro-level players amp with tons of flexibility.
Gary claims 35 watts for his Cruncher, while the Chicago amp produces 32 watts of clean power. The Chicago’s rated power occurs at 50 percent on the volume control. I’ve measured nearly 50 watts while playing the amp on 10 (out of 12).
The amp has been remarkably feedback free. In fact, I’ve never gotten feedback from the amp unless I do something really stupid. I can get loud enough to stand out in a LOUD blues jam and still get zero feedback while standing in front of the amp.
-The Chicago amp costs $999, which is $496 less than the Cruncher, and Gary says the Cruncher is due for a price increase soon.
-The Chicago amp weighs only 34 pounds, 10 pounds less than the Cruncher.
-The Chicago amp has a 5-year warranty that is transferable to the next owner. The Cruncher has a 2-year non-transferable warranty.
-The Chicago amp is hand made by Bruce Collins. The Cruncher is made in a factory in North Carolina.
Gary has many top pro players who endorse his amp, and that is impressive. The Chicago amp, however, is not really meant for them; it is meant for you. It is meant for working harp players who need a great gigging amp at a reasonable price. Bruce Collins doesn’t play the endorsement game: He doesn’t give the amp away. If you see somebody playing the Mission Chicago amp you can be sure the guy paid full price because he loves the tone, including me.
I’ve played both amps, and I am convinced the Mission Chicago amp sounds much better. The Chicago amp is louder than the Cruncher because of its more efficient speaker. It sounds punchier than the Cruncher in the Fixed Bias mode, and crunchier in the Cathode Biased mode. The Chicago has a more complex tone, with overtones swirling around in the sound. Notes seem to explode from the amp and spin around the room.
Check out the details and videos at www.missionharpamps.com
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 12:07 PM
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Rick Davis
338 posts
Apr 27, 2010
10:13 AM
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Let's keep this a nice civil discussion. If I prefer a different amp than you it does not mean I think you have bad tone or make poor choices.
An amp will NOT make you a better player, no matter who endorses it. But a good amp will inspire you to play and practice more.
Good amps have a certain blues harp tone that makes good players sound fantastic. Both the Chicago and the Cruncher have that quality.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Harpaholic
46 posts
Apr 27, 2010
11:30 AM
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As far as price comparisons, you can't compare the two. There two different animals.
The price of the Bruce's amp will eventually increase. I'd bet on it!
As far as the tone of the Cruncher, I don't love it. I like a real thick tone similar to a Harp King, or an old Premier.
Bruce's amp sounds great, and the design is impressive. It may be the perfect harp amp? It's just a matter of time before I buy one.
Mojo Musical Supply is not just a factory in NC.
They produce some of the finest products on the planet, they have some of the best techs/designers in the country, and their reputation is outstanding.
If 50 plus manufacturers trust their products, they must be doing something right.
Do a little research on the "factory in North Carolina"
Like I said before, Brian doesn't build every HarpGear amp, and maybe not any of them, but that doesn't make the quality inferior to any other custom harp amp.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 11:32 AM
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Rick Davis
339 posts
Apr 27, 2010
11:52 AM
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I am quite familiar with Mojo Musical Supply. I've chatted with the owner. I have a link to their website on my blog. They are a class operation.
BUT.... That is still not NEARLY as impressive as having Bruce Collins personally build your amp, from selecting and positioning the components, to soldering and testing and listening.
If you have a problem with your Mission Chicago amp you can call and talk to the guy who designed and built it! Not possible with a Cruncher.
As for Harpgear amps, I think they are excellent.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 12:01 PM
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tmf714
73 posts
Apr 27, 2010
12:02 PM
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I did happen to notice-only 1 inverter and 1 preamp tube on the Mission amp. Any reason why?
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 12:03 PM
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Rick Davis
340 posts
Apr 27, 2010
12:10 PM
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tmf, why would it need more than one phase inverter? I'm not sure I understand your question.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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tmf714
74 posts
Apr 27, 2010
2:33 PM
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The Cruncher has 2 pre-amp octals and one phase inverter.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 2:34 PM
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Cisco
109 posts
Apr 27, 2010
2:40 PM
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Totally different amps - you're comparing apples to oranges and saying one is better. Doesn't jive.
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Harpaholic
47 posts
Apr 27, 2010
2:40 PM
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Rick, can you post some pics of the chassis without the back panel?
I would like to see the components/layout of the amp. I'm guessing others would too.
Are you at liberty to say what brand of transformers, and choke are used in the Mission amp? American made?
I appreciate the fact that Bruce has stepped outside of the box by not building another tweed clone.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 2:47 PM
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tmf714
75 posts
Apr 27, 2010
2:49 PM
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My bad-Bruce is using 2 Svetlana power tubes and 2 JJ
preamps with a Sovtek rectifier.
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tmf714
76 posts
Apr 27, 2010
2:56 PM
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The amp has been remarkably feedback free. In fact, I’ve never gotten feedback from the amp unless I do something really stupid. I can get loud enough to stand out in a LOUD blues jam and still get zero feedback while standing in front of the amp.
Harpaholic, when I gigged this amp Sunday night it started to ring a bit of feedback at 50 percent on the volume control. That is where the amp hits its rated power of 30 watts, and it was very loud. I was using my F&C crystal mic and my SM57 with Bulletizer.
Playing Impressions
?
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tmf714
77 posts
Apr 27, 2010
3:05 PM
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Looks like Triad transformers and choke.
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Rick Davis
345 posts
Apr 27, 2010
3:58 PM
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tmf, Yep, it rang a bit but has never howled feedback except when I did something stupid, like bend over in front of the amp with the mic in my hand.
Some old-school harp guys think an amp sounds best when it barely starts to ring; right on the edge.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 4:01 PM
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hvyj
307 posts
Apr 27, 2010
5:25 PM
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None of the purpose built harp amps (Cruncher, Harpgear, Meteor, Mission) have built in reverb which is an omission I've never understood. The Mission also lacks a midrange control, which I find to be a useful feature. It also has a twelve inch speaker with, apparently, no option for a ten or tens. I happen to prefer a ten inch speaker for harp.
The Mission may sound okay. i don't know, I've never tried one. But it doesn't have the features I usually look for in a tube amp.
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bigd
82 posts
Apr 27, 2010
6:05 PM
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I hope this stays on topic and amps continue to be compared as there is just no pragmatic way to try all (or sometimes any) of them. Of concern to me is (given that "Tone" is a given absolute need). volume before feedback as I'm a working player and what i look for is "Plug" and "Play" and "Don't Worry" if I need the volume up there. I'm appreciating the feedback about the "absence of feedback" on the Mission 12''. Rick: how many guitarists up there when your cutting through? And are they loud? And to the responders who disclaim "The tones organic to the player" and "you shouldn't need to play competitive high volume": No need to state the obvious. Once again: appreciate the thread Rick- I know harp players get whacky about this stuff! d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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bigd
83 posts
Apr 27, 2010
6:14 PM
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And hvyj: The website states he will be creating other speaker configurations. I like a 10'' too but no way it cuts through enough on my gigs. I'm loving 15''s myself but the weight to lug around my big Magnatone bass amp without a (Manhattan) car is a challenge and I work out a lot. p.s. I've often wished for onboard (I have it in my 12'' Premier") reverb with the harp voiced amps too. Kendrick made one once with a couple of speakers but that was "mad" heavy and Expensive!
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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Blueharper
109 posts
Apr 27, 2010
6:28 PM
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A shill is a shill.Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Why does this thread have "versus" in the title?
I have a lot of amps,all have a different sound,most of them are great for harp.
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hvyj
308 posts
Apr 27, 2010
7:26 PM
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@bigd: Dennis, there's no doubt that a 15" moves more air, and a 15" sounds nicely thick and fat. But, FWIW, I happen to think that a 10" has more "punch" for harp than a 12".
Actually, I think a 12" can sound a little "shrill" for harp--I realize this seems counter intuitive since a 12" is a larger speaker than a 10" but, to my ear, the sound/tone from a 10" is "tighter" and therefore has more punch and fewer shrill overtones for harp than a 12". Just my opinion. Others may disagree, and probably will.
I have no problem getting adequate cut from my SWR Baby Baby Blue acoustic bass amp which has 120 watts through one 10 and will not feed back.(It also has a tweeter which i turn off.) No problems cutting through whatsoever even in loud performance settings. If i use my Super Reverb Reissue (four 10s) guitarists ask me to turn down.
In my experience, all things being equal, there is no significant difference between 10s and 12s for harp as far as ability to "cut" is concerned.
My Princeton Reverb Reissue (one 10) does not have enough cut to handle a loud gig, but that's because it's a 15 watt amp, not because it has a 10. It has as much or more cut as a Blues Junior which has the same wattage and one 12. Apples to apples.
But, yes, if one is gigging, playing out live with other musicians at different venues, the ability to get as loud as the situation requires without worrying about feedback is a matter of considerable importance. So, yeah, the ability to plug in, play and don't worry counts a great deal.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 7:52 PM
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bigd
84 posts
Apr 27, 2010
8:47 PM
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hvyj. Good info. Thanks. d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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Ev630
321 posts
Apr 27, 2010
9:11 PM
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"But you can pay less and get better tone with a Mission Chicago amp."
Rick, that's yet to be proven via Youtube. The clips of the Mission sound great. So do the clips of the Cruncher. It's entirely subjective. But all the best with your new amp project.
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MP
211 posts
Apr 27, 2010
9:16 PM
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well that's a new one. an SWR baby blue for harp? i used to work in a music store/buy and sell and i'd try just about any amp that came in for harp. never thought about the SWR that sat there for months. i love this forum. just when you think you've...........
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5F6H
90 posts
Apr 28, 2010
1:27 AM
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TMF714 - The Cruncher, like a bassman/SS410/Meteor has a cathode follower tone stack & 2 channels. The extra channel & cathode follower require an additional tube over the Mission design...lots of great sounding harp amps have just 1 preamp tube & 1 inverter. No better or worse, just inherant with the design.
Triad transformer & choke? You sure? Not Hyboer?
HYVJ - on board reverb always adds gain which can defeat the attempts to reduce feedback, I can fully understand that reverb is not a priority for a harp amp builder, there are many reverb (& delay) pedals on the market which will keep gain & feedback closer to unity than a reverb circuit.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2010 3:55 AM
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hvyj
309 posts
Apr 28, 2010
3:46 AM
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@MP The SWR has a tube preamp, solid state power stage and very sophisticated semi parametric EQ that provides almost total control over tone shaping and does not feedback. Not for someone who wishes to set up for distortion or "crunch" but does give me a nice deep, dark, thick, basically clean sound. Because of the tube pre, it's very responsive to mic handling and breath technique (I use a 545 Ultimate) and has texture. I love it. It allows me to recreate the sound I hear in my head. Relatively compact and portable, too.
Funny story about how i discovered it: I was invited to sit in with a jazz band at a venue that always has a house PA. I show up w/ a mic, cord and harps but no amp and guess what ? No PA. What to do? The guitar player had only 1 input on his amp. The bass player (who had invited me) has 2 inputs on his SWR, and says I can plug into his amp. Having no other option, I did, feeling certain it was going to sound awful. Surprise! It sounded GREAT. I was invited back repeatedly and began to look forward to using the bas player's amp so much I finally decided to buy one of my own. After I got it. it took me almost 4 hours of fiddling around with the EQ to get the sound I was after, but once I did, I've been living happily ever after.
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hvyj
310 posts
Apr 28, 2010
4:04 AM
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@5F8H, I happen to like the sound of an on board reverb tank in a tube amp better than i like an effects pedal and I don't have to carry a pedal. I don't use any pedals with my tube amps. i think that pedals mess with the sound of the tube amps and the tube amps mess with the sound of the pedals. Again, just my opinion. Others may, and probably will, disagree.
I do use a pedal board with my SWR which (among other effects) has an MXR Carbon Copy Delay that stays on all the time since the SWR has no reverb and i don't like playing dry. i used to put it in the effects loop, and i do think it sounds a little better there, but having it on the pedal board between the mic and the amp is so much easier and quicker to set up and tear down.
The SWR works with the pedals very well. If I kick on my Micro POG and RotoSim people start looking to see where the keyboard player is. Using the pedals in various combinations can give me some very interesting and unharmonica like sounds. How you set them up is important. For a more traditional sound, if i kick on my RetroSonic Phaser (set to relatively low speed and medium depth) I can get a tube compression like tone (sort of like James Cotton on the Muddy Waters album "Live at Mr. Kelly's"). Using the Phaser in tandem with the Micro POG can make things pretty electronic sounding--then activating the RotoSim at low speed makes them sound really spooky which is perfect for Miles Davis' "Jean Pierre" for example.
Other than the delay, i don't use the pedals all the time. But, it's fun getting creative with the pedalboard gizmos every now and then so long as i don't overdo it.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2010 4:19 AM
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5F6H
91 posts
Apr 28, 2010
4:57 AM
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Pedals mess with the tone of any amp, to some degree, as does anything you put between the mic & input...even the cable. A lot of guys seem to prefer delay over reverb, which is not so easy to build in. Usually effects loops are buffered, driven by an op amp, sometimes a tube, again this adds gain (may be beneficial, may not - depends on rig/taste) so having the pedal in line before the input is usually the most transparent route (assuming some transparency from the pedal in question).
"For a more traditional sound, if i kick on my RetroSonic Phaser (set to relatively low speed and medium depth) I can get a tube compression like tone (sort of like James Cotton on the Muddy Waters album "Live at Mr. Kelly's")." - Cool, a little OT, but for those that may not be aware, half of the harp on that album is Paul Oscher, Cotton guests under the pseudonym of "Joe Denim" on tracks 1-4, 9 & 10...if memory serves.
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hvyj
311 posts
Apr 28, 2010
5:37 AM
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I like using the effects loop in the SWR for the delay because it has a "blend' control that allows one to mix the "wet" signal in proportion to the "dry" signal for a little better dimension to the overall sound. It also permits the delay to be out of the effects chain, so the other effects hit the amp harder and sound a little more powerful than if the delay is last in chain between the mic and the amp.
BUT, set up is so much faster and easier just leaving the delay on the pedal board and i play out 2-3 nights most weeks, so convenience and efficiency prevails.
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rbeetsme
255 posts
Apr 28, 2010
5:59 AM
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Rick, no experience with Mission amps. I checked the website and here is one demo video featuring a young kid playing through the amp. Not a very solid endorsement. If it were my website, I'd try to post a better video or find some credible player to endorse it. Keep in mind, the best amp/harp/mic choice is very subjective, I have 4 that I like, all for different reasons. I don't think it helps to bash the competitor, just list the qualities of your amp. Why do you like it? Trying to help.
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Rick Davis
347 posts
Apr 28, 2010
6:27 AM
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rbeetsme, as I said, I don't think Mission Amps plays the endorser games. Great players sound great on any good amp. Charlie Musselwhite just killed on a Fender Red Knob Twin at the Greeley Blues Festival last year. He recorded his last album using the Twin. I think most of us would pass on such a hi-gain monster.
The videos on the Mission Harp Amps website are impromptu performances at blues jams, all using my Mission Chicago amp. They are all good working harp players, not elite pros. Nowhere on the site does it say that these players endorse the amp. The point is, the videos are an honest example of how YOU will sound playing the amp.
I'm happy this thread has generated so much discussion. Again, this is not to disparage Gary Onofrio or his amp. The Cruncher is a very good product.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Harpaholic
49 posts
Apr 28, 2010
7:10 AM
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Rick, can you post some pics of the chassis without the back panel?
I would like to see the components/layout of the amp. I'm guessing others would too.
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Rick Davis
349 posts
Apr 28, 2010
7:27 AM
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Harpaholic - That is a question for Bruce Collins.
I can tell you the transformers are custom wound for Bruce by Magnetic Components; they are not available elsewhere. The choke is Heyboer.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2010 2:08 PM
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bigd
85 posts
Apr 28, 2010
2:40 PM
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Rick. Hoping you guys keep those video samples coming. You can't have too many examples of an amp. Since I once had one of Bruce's amps with a 10'' ( he reminded me when he responded to a relativity question that that was a very different item sonically ) that I loved tonally but was too light in the volume to compete with a full band I'm a little more curious than usual. And the price seems decent. d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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Rick Davis
354 posts
Apr 28, 2010
3:10 PM
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Dennis, there will be more vids. But we are staying away from top pro players. We want to show how the amp will sound when YOU play it.
Be sure to check the website for the latest videos: www.missionharpamps.com
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Buzadero
370 posts
Apr 28, 2010
3:49 PM
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Ricardo,
Mr Heumann hooked me up with Charlie last year and I bought his Red Knob Twin.
I bought it knowing that owning the same gear would make me sound exactly like Herr Musselwhite.
Thus far.....it hasn't happened.
I remain content to turn it up to Outdoor Festival Level and benefit my neighbors.
A shrewd businessman, he failed to include the custom Greeley Amp Stand.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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Rick Davis
355 posts
Apr 28, 2010
4:23 PM
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LOL! Buzzy, yer killin' me here.
Actually, the Evil Twin that Charlie played at the Greeley Fest is now owned by AC Blue, a Denver harp guy who has posted here a bit. Chris Richards bought it for the Fest at Musselwhite's request and took it to Bruce Collins for refurbishing to stock specs. After the Fest Chris traded it to AC for a Kinder AFB plus cash.
I think the one you have is the amp Charlie Musselwhite used to record "Delta Hardware" last year, a great album with fantastic harp tone.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Buzadero
371 posts
Apr 28, 2010
4:27 PM
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It's funny. Chris Richards called my bro and asked if he could hook him up with a Red Knob. My bro called me and asked if I wanted to rent my Red Knob...since he knew that I'd purchased one. I told him that I didn't want to ship it from NorCal and asked why he wanted it. He explained that Chuckles needed it for the Festival. We got a good laugh when I told him that the one I had I had bought from Charlie.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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Nastyolddog
627 posts
Apr 28, 2010
6:01 PM
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Bro's this is a public Forum,
all this talk about Grown men Handleing and playing with RED NOBS i just discusting and volgar,
please keep it to your self about Playing with your Nobs i don't care what Color they are:) :/ ?
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9000
4 posts
Apr 28, 2010
6:07 PM
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I've got several amps: couple of big ones, couple of small ones and a medium sized one. I like them all for different reasons. They all sound distinctly different from each other...but I always sound like me no matter which one that I play through. I don't think of any of them as being better or worse than the others nor do I think of any of them as being better or worse than a Sonny Jr. It appears that Sonny Jr. amps have become the benchmark by which ALL harp amps are judged. BTW I don't have any SJ amps.
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Greg Heumann
411 posts
Apr 28, 2010
6:23 PM
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I SMELL DISINGENUOUSNESS.
First of all, I'm thrilled we have another harp-specific amp to choose from. As a consumer, moire choice and more competition is a very good thing for me. And I have never heard the Mission amp, and have no opinion about it other than I'd love to try one.
But puh-LEEEZ, Rick - don't play this holier than thou, I'm not trying to disparage Gary or his amps game. It reeks of bullshit.
1) The first post in this thread is yours. The very SECOND post is you again, saying "Let's keep this civilized." Why - are you expecting a fight? Why?
2) " I don't think Mission Amps plays the endorser games."
Anyone who doesn't play that game is either stupid or hasn't been invited. I doubt Bruce is stupid! If he could have names like Charlie Musselwhite, Mark Hummel, Gary Smith and John Nemeth (All Cruncher endorders) playing HIS amp I seriously doubt he'd keep it a secret. Endorsement from pros who genuinely like your product are very valuable and one would be foolish not to try to get them.
3) " Again, this is not to disparage Gary Onofrio or his amp. The Cruncher is a very good product. "
And yet, you do. You clearly believe your amp is superior, and CHOOSE to make this about "versus the Cruncher" to say so. Why not the Mini-Meat? Why not the Double Trouble? They're all in the same price ball park.
Rick, Of course you're entitled to your opinion - and your report about this amp is valuable in its own right. But you have a public history of friction with Sonny Jr who really pissed you off once upon a time. (LAST time I heard about the freakin' Red Knob Twin was when you didn't like Gary's claims about Charlie Musselwhite endorsing the Cruncher, because to YOU that meant using it exclusively, and the fact that he used a Red Knob Twin in Greely was PROOF that he didn't, therefore Gary was a LIAR. Of course, given the realities of air travel that Charlie has to contend with, he doesn't bring his own rig when he travels by air (not do any of the other major stars), your assumption was pointed out to you by many, many others as being ridiculous.
This is not the first, nor do I suspect it will be the last time you try to knock him, hiding behind your computer. I find it transparent and distasteful, but that's just MY opinion. I know you'll argue with me too, as you have in the past. I probably will not respond.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2010 6:26 PM
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5F6H
95 posts
Apr 29, 2010
2:14 AM
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Gary has never been shy about expressing his opinions on other amps/people, ...what's good for the goose & all that, he's a big boy, he can fend for himself.
That said, I haven't read anything that Gary has specifically said about the Mission amp & don't necessarily see why Rick specifically chose to raise quotes from Gary's site, in respect to the Mission amp.
But, Rick has said, "The Cruncher amp from Gary Onofrio is a very fine product, and Gary is a good guy who has a lot of enthusiasm for what he does." I think we have to take that as it is written and put Rick's zeal down to his enthusiasm for the Mission. Perhaps a little clumsily done? Gary has a loyal following...I don't see this thread changing that...there's no law saying anyone has to stick to one make of amp, I know folks who have stage amps from 2 or 3 manufacturers, each with their own vibe/use. Owning a Mission doesn't preclude you from owning a Cruncher or vice versa.
Many people are aware of Rick & Gary's past differences, I hoped that we had seen the back of that...I don't see why it needs to be brought back to public attention.
"This is not the first, nor do I suspect it will be the last time you try to knock him, hiding behind your computer." Greg, what are you proposing, gloves at dawn, man to man, pistols at 30 paces...? Will there be half time entertainmment, who's singing the national anthem? :-) This is a net forum, as such, the computer is the traditional medium for communication.
The world's a big enough place for folks to get on with their own business without treading on each other's toes isn't it? Surely, we don't need to jump at every opportunity to fuel/start a feud?
Re. endorsement - Bruce is a busy guy, the harp amp market is not his main bread & butter financially/turnover-wise (though he has been working with harp players for years & is a skilled builder), he has a full time business, he has no need to give stuff away (ask Mike Clark/Gerald Weber/John Kinder for a free amp, see what they say?). Gary has been fortunate to be in the position to be able to provide amps for certain players (fortunate for them too), but that is not normal in the hand built amp market, where hourly rates for work are low & profit margins thin.
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Harpaholic
50 posts
Apr 29, 2010
6:58 AM
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Well said, Greg!
Why the Cruncher? Why not throw the Mini Meat, or the HG35 into the mix?
It became uncivilized with the first posting. Why was Gary targeted? Most of us know the answer to that.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 7:00 AM
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rbeetsme
256 posts
Apr 29, 2010
7:26 AM
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Greg, good post. You are right, lots of good amps to choose from. The real question is, why do people still insist on playing through amps that just sound bad! Maybe they just can't tell the difference. I have wandered into too many rooms where a bad player was playing through an awful sounding amp. And it seems that almost every time they try to make up for poor skills and equipment by playing louder. Painful.
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hohnerjones
12 posts
Apr 29, 2010
7:27 AM
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Ditto.
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Greg Heumann
412 posts
Apr 29, 2010
8:38 AM
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@5F6H - you're right - I usually try to be the bigger man. I'm just so TIRED of this. I hate the thought of a newbie coming here and drooling all over Rick's post without knowing that there might be some hidden agenda at work. I too thought we were past it. But this was a fight pickin' post. (I suppose Rick will deny that, but based on his track record and the points I raised, that's MY story and I'm sticking to it.)
FYI - Endorsement does NOT mean giving stuff away. Gary may offer discounts in exchange for getting a big star on board, but I can assure you that his endorsers paid for their amps. I hand build everything I make too, by the way. I have great endorsers because I make great products - and in return they help my sales.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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tmf714
78 posts
Apr 29, 2010
8:40 AM
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As far as endorsers go,I saw Magic Dick on the Hummel Blowout last Thursday in Connecticut. Mark had a Super Sonny and a Cruncher linked together. I had seen Magic that Monday at BB Kings playing through his red-knob Twin,but in Connecticut he played through the Super/Cruncher set-up. He said he loved the tone and projection he was able to achieve-no endorsement-just a pro harp player deciding to try something new and different.
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Rick Davis
356 posts
Apr 29, 2010
8:41 AM
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Greg, LOL! Methinks you protest WAY too much.
Gary Onofrio and I have made peace. He is a good guy and his amps are very good. I wish him the very best. You need to calm down.
The Mission Chicago amp costs less, sounds better, and has superior features. That is why I'm excited about it.
I know you vigorously defend your own choices, often by blasting out all these BS obfuscations and irrelevancies. I repeat, Gary Onofrio and I have made peace. Why can't you just let it go?
I can't speak for Bruce Collins, but I know he has a reputation for absolute integrity and first-rate amps. I've never seen any endorsers on his website, nor have I ever heard him brag about celebrity endorsers. You are welcome to write him and ask about this.
In my opinion the endorser game is a waste of the customer's money. Giving away amps to celebrity endorsers drives up the price the rest of us have to pay.
Just so you know, however, a VERY well known harp player -- someone who has played with the very best for decades and who had an influence in the Chicago blues tone -- has ordered a Mission Chicago Amp. He watched the videos and said "That is the tone I've been looking for." He paid full price for the amp. If he wants to say nice things about the amp, I'll let you know about it. There is zero "endorsment" relationship.
When creating the Mission Chicago amp our goals were to make the best sounding mid-sized amp on the planet at a lower price. We surveyed many other amps for price, features, and tone. We conducted market research as to consumer taste. We examined the circuits of many other harp amps. I think we've achieved our goals.
Greg, you need to relax a bit; you're being a bit of a psycho about this. Why am I not entitled to my own opinions about an amp I had a lot to do with creating? Gary Onofrio makes a very fine amp, and it's cool that you like it. Why are you so agitated?
Gary Onofrio and his supporters make superlative claims about the Cruncher amp, insisting it is the elite amp in the class. That makes comparisons to it inevitable. It is unseemly to get so angry when challenged.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 8:50 AM
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tmf714
79 posts
Apr 29, 2010
8:47 AM
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The Cruncher-C-R-U-N-C-H-E-R-,as pointed out previously is a toatally different amplifier-no comparison between the two can be made.
Sonnys amps are all fixed bias-it's a fact that this type of circuit is preferred for harp-cathode biased amps are spongier and lose some "clean" attributes,which are preferred by some harp players.
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Rick Davis
357 posts
Apr 29, 2010
8:50 AM
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tmf - The Mission Chicago amp is switchable on the fly from Fixed Bias to Cathode Bias. You get the best of both worlds.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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rbeetsme
257 posts
Apr 29, 2010
9:26 AM
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"obfuscations"?
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Kyzer Sosa
458 posts
Apr 29, 2010
10:28 AM
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@rbeets: i dunno either, beetsme too!
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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6SN7
46 posts
Apr 29, 2010
11:10 AM
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Rick
Your post here is confuses me.
While you claim not financial involved, you certainly claim to have been involved with the design of the amp. So it sounds like you have a degree of "sweat equity" through your personal involvement and a lot of personal pride in the Chicago. Plus your drummer is the driving force behind the amp. And you are selling this thing like a southern politician. Nothing wrong with that, so why not just be honest about it.
It is what it is.
As for your past beefs with Gary. I am afraid after reading the scathing posts on your website a while back about Gary, I have a problem believing your statement that you have made up. If you had one post about him, I might believe you but you had a number at one point and you were just butchering him from your pulpit.
Personally, I think you are selling your product short when you compare your amp to the Cruncher. The SJ line of amps are big amps, as are the harpkings and meteors. Your amp is more in line with the smaller HG. But then again, the Chicago has a story and unique attributes that allow it to stand alone as new and different product.
I'll be honest, I own a SJ410. But I also use a Fender Tweed Deluxe for gigs. The Chicago is the logically choice for me to replace that amp.
The Chicago fills a niche that is lacking out there.
The Chicago has a lot of strengths and attributes and can stand on its own merits. I hope that shines through to most. You have absolutely no reason to even bring up the SJ's. Let the product sell itself.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 12:07 PM
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