Ev630
333 posts
Apr 30, 2010
10:31 AM
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5F6H, I'm here if you need me. Ask me anything. I'm a font of wisdom.
;)
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tmf714
81 posts
Apr 30, 2010
10:57 AM
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Amp output is determined by many factors. Speakers,for instance-size,ohm,load rating,smooth cone,ribbed cone,alnico,ceramic.
Transfomers-hand wound,machine wound,"fat" stacks,replacements,originals.
Tubes-NOS,JJ,Groove Tube,High Gain,Low Gain.
Gary's amps are fixed bias-more reliable and louder vs. cathode bias. The cathode mode allows playability in smaller venues. Gary's amps are infinetly adjustable-tubes swaps,bright/normal and bridging inputs-biasing on the fly with a small bias tool,retaining reliabilty with adjustability.
Similar output? NO-not with Gary's tubes,input channels and speaker combination. Cheaper-money wise,yes.
You will NEVER be calling Gary for problems related to his products.
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Harpaholic
51 posts
Apr 30, 2010
11:11 AM
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$999 is the introductory price. The Chicago with the 12" speaker will go up in price. I'd bet on it!
The difference in the build of the Cruncher can justify the difference in price.
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tmf714
82 posts
Apr 30, 2010
11:30 AM
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After the initial dozen amps are sold, the SRP (suggested retail price) will be around $1199-$1399, depending on the cabinet configuration and speakers.
From the Mission website.
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Rick Davis
365 posts
Apr 30, 2010
1:46 PM
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"Tax-Time Special - $1495 plus shipping - get yours before the price increase"
-From the Cruncher page on Gary Onofrio's website.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Rick Davis
366 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:05 PM
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I am amused by all the faux outrage about this comparison of two amps. Comparison ads are common... Ford says its trucks have bigger payload and better gas mileage than Chevy trucks. Chevy says its cars are more reliable than Toyota. Contrast ads are everywhere.
The website for the Cruncher makes some pretty hyperbolic claims (It'll make you sound like Little Walter!) and stakes out territory as the best amp in the class. Perhaps it is! But that certainly invites challenges.
The Mission Chicago amp is a serious challenger. It is well-designed and carefully built, with the goal of being a first-class blues harp amp at a lower price. It is a working harp players amp.
People are people... most are going to be skeptical, others are going to resent the challenge, some will just dig in and defend their own purchases and prerogatives. That is great!
If you are looking for a premium gigging blues harp amp that is hand built by a well-known tone guru and you are attracted by the $999 price, please check out the videos and details on the website.
www.missionharpamps.com
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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tmf714
83 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:17 PM
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Harp amps are not trucks-those ads are sales pitches and media hype.
Nowhere on Garys website does it state "It'll make you sound like Little Walter"-
Rick-please-give it a break. These are two totally different amps,with different circuits and speaker combinations.
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congaron
854 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:32 PM
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"Or, you can lean into it without fear of it feeding back and have the true Little Walter dynamics he was so famous for. "
This is what it says. Effectively the same thing in the world of advertising. Someone looking to sound like Little Walter by buying an amp would easily bite on this. It is skillful and effective. It walks right on the line of "makes you sound like Little Walter" without making a potentially false claim.
Just saying.
If I had $1000 I'd get a Mission Chicago. Never gonna happen. My 35 buck tin sandwiches will sound good enough amplified by whatever is available to me in my budget, which will always be controlled by my head saying the cost/benefit ratio just isn't there for me.
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paul45
17 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:32 PM
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There is plenty of comparison between products that are built different yet for the same purpose. Comparisons will always exist even between apples and oranges, me, I like apples. As for a sales pitch and hype I've yet to see a website for an amp that did'nt hype itself. What are builders suppose to say, "buy my Harpdestroyer 2000 if you want inferior sound to the MonsterHarp Orgasma'amp. I think we are very lucky to have so many great choices!!
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Rick Davis
367 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:40 PM
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tmf- thanks for pointing out the obvious: "These are two totally different amps, with different circuits and speaker combinations."
Indeed. We did not set out build a copy of the Cruncher or any other Bassman clone. It is unique.
Your use of quotes is dishonest. Here is what it says on the Cruncher page: "Or, you can lean into it without fear of it feeding back and have the true Little Walter dynamics he was so famous for." Didja get that? Buy the Cruncher and you get to sound like Little Walter.
We make no such claims. The Mission Chicago amp won't make you sound like Litte Walter or anybody else. What it will do is provide you with a great tone platform at a very attractive price. It will inspire you to play more, and it will make it easier to hear yourself and to be heard.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 3:01 PM
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tmf714
84 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:42 PM
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"Or, you can lean into it without fear of it feeding back and have the true Little Walter dynamics he was so famous for. "
Still-does not say"It'll make you sound like LIttle Walter".,which is exactly what Rick stated. Just saying.
I have yet to se an info-mercial or tv ad for a harp amp-catching my drift? If not-you are not involved in the sales business-which I have been for over 30 years.
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tmf714
85 posts
Apr 30, 2010
2:45 PM
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I still have yet to hear "live" tone from the Mission amp-until I do-and most certianly after-I will continue to stand by Sonny and his superior products.
Also-sound and dynamics are two different subjects. Sounding like someone and emulating that players dynamics do not fall in the same catagory-and-as Gary states-you need to bring your chops-which you don't seem to have.
Just stating the obvious-now if you will excuse me,I am going to visit my brother and his newborn baby-way more important than bickering over some useless bullshit.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 2:49 PM
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Rick Davis
368 posts
Apr 30, 2010
3:12 PM
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HAHAHAHAH!!!! IT NEVER FAILS! Every time a Sonny Jr. fan gets frustrated he insults your playing. Predictable as clockwork. That is just too funny...
The Mission Chicago amp is for everyone. Nobody will ever suggest you need to have a certain level of "chops" to play this amp. That is bullshit. I will never insult your playing, only encourage you. This amp will make you better, not the other way around.
Beginners and pros (and everybody in between) are welcome to buy the amp. It is a precision tool for all players, not just for smug twits who think they have better chops.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Kingley
1123 posts
Apr 30, 2010
11:26 PM
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"This amp will make you better, not the other way around"
C'mon Rick we all know that the only thing that makes people better is practice! No amp in the world will ever make any player "better". That's just endless marketing hype. Please don't try and mislead people with those kind of statements.
When it comes to boutique amps, you pay your money and make your choice. The best amp in the world for you is not necessarily the best amp in the world for anyone else. All of the people that make these great amps provide wonderful products.
Some like Sonny Jr, some like HarpGear, some like Meteor, some like Mission, etc. Some like 'em all.
I have owned two HarpGear amps and thought they were both excellent. I have played a friends Sonny Jr 410 and thought it was a good amp. I have heard a friend play through a HarpKing 410 and it sounded great.
Boutique amps are great but so are some production amps. My preference these days is for Fender amps.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 11:27 PM
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Ev630
334 posts
May 01, 2010
2:26 AM
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No faux outrage from me, Rick. I'm just waiting to hear the sound samples that justify the comparisons.
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5F6H
103 posts
May 01, 2010
7:11 AM
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@ TMF714 "Amp output is determined by many factors." It's decided by one factor, how much volume (power delivered to the speaker & the speaker's abilty to turn that into dB)the amp makes. I am not aware of a particular brand of 5881/6L6 tube that is head & shoulders above the rest here...the whole NOS vs current production holds no water in this respect. However, you won't necessarily buy an amp because it makes more power than another, you will buy it usually because of the sound it makes, as long as it makes enough.
Fixed bias & cathode bias are no more reliable from one to the other, as long as both are properly designed. The Chicago is configured to run both modes (which can easily be applied to any fixed bias amp with a few inches of hookup wire a 12W resistor & a DPDT switch). Yes, for a given design & PT cathode gives away some power to fixed...but without putting the Cruncher & Chicago side by side & taking measurements, making statements regarding power & reliability, favouring one over the other, are misleading. You say you haven't heard the Mission live, so you don't know this. Your loyalty to Gary & his product is admirable...don't use it as a cosh to beat someone else unles you have the facts to hand.
Any amp from any manufacturer can suffer the odd gremlin, I am not aware of any notable problems with any of the current harp amps...reliabilty of the Chicago has yet to be proven in the field, but Bruce is no fool & has been building amps for years, in that respect you can buy with the same confidence as you would with the others.
Perpetuating this "my amp is superior to your amp" bullshit is getting very tiring, smacks of playground talk ("my dad will wallop your dad") lots of untrue statements flying about...can we try and stick to facts & away from personal personal politics. In terms of preference, buy what you like the sound of, always audition the amp you intend to buy in person & compare to your current rig.
Whatever the angle that Rick has tried to push & validity of certain responses, Bruce is offering harp players a bespoke, value for money product & expanding our options...that doesn't really warrant some sort of brand war. If I was him & I read this thread I'd wonder why I bothered & screw the lot of you.
"Why you kids gotta act like there's a war on?" ...bonus point for identifying the quote. :-).
Last Edited by on May 01, 2010 7:16 AM
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bigd
95 posts
May 01, 2010
8:07 AM
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I appreciate the rational 5F6H post. The fighting is extraneous and tired. I already have a Pitbull in my head and twins in the background. I'm really appreciative of amp reviews, demos, insights, etc as a gigging musician. The only suggestion ( and reason I appreciate the reviews and demos so much) that 5F6H makes that is pragmatic but really hard to bring to life is: "always audition the amp you intend to buy in person & compare to your current rig." Boy I wish! I -once upon a time- was going to develop a harp amp comparison showcase in NYC with a couple of amp developers interested (Scott B. of Meteor was one) and a solid harp related website behind it but it became too complicated. Anyway I appreciate those posts here that are informative and grounded! d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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toddlgreene
1297 posts
May 01, 2010
8:16 AM
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Dennis, the amp comparison thing is an idea Adam's implementing for Hill Country-it will be an ultimate opportunity for many to play thru and hear first hand what many amps, mikes and effects sound like, side by side. I too appreciate the sharing of wisdom from the posters here on amps and other gear, and I can understand the bias to a certain degree, but I also take it with a grain of salt until I get to try the gear myself. Opinions;we all have them.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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Kingley
1127 posts
May 01, 2010
8:37 AM
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The problem with any demo/amp taste test is it needs to be with the same mics and the same players, filmed in the same location on the same day. Otherwise is just becomes null and void due to different rooms, mics, etc. It also needs to be done at the same volume levels with all the amps and by a players who have good tone to be truly subjective. Furthermore it needs to be done with a backing band to attain the live quality of the amps. You would also need to take any effects out of the chain (delay, reverb, etc) to get the true nature of the amp. The amps would also need to be set in the mix for normal gigging volume, not having the harp way louder than the band otherwise that would not be a real life test model.
All of the above is not an easy thing to achieve by any means.
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Tuckster
504 posts
May 01, 2010
8:37 AM
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Wow! Harp players are as geeky about gear as,well,guitar players! I think we have an embarrassment of riches. I remember a time when finding an amp that worked for harp was almost a search for the Holy Grail. Now we have so many good choices,it's just a matter of taste. Despite Rick's "proud papa" push of the Mission,I welcome Bruce to the fold.
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toddlgreene
1298 posts
May 01, 2010
8:40 AM
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True, Kingley. Amp shopping is quite a task. Add in the fact that most any amp has more than one single setting, so trying out an amp is much more involved than simply plugging into it and cranking the volume:you've got various inputs, tone and eq knobs, bias settings, etc...ugh.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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Kingley
1128 posts
May 01, 2010
8:51 AM
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David Barrett did an amp test many years ago with various custom amps and a number of small amps as well. Here's his results: http://www.hunterharp.com/ampset2.html (they are about halfway down the page.
Of course since then a few other boutique amps have come into the market for harp players.
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Ev630
335 posts
May 01, 2010
10:28 AM
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Who's fighting? Why is shooting the shit always interpreted as fighting? I was discussing gear.
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Joe_L
202 posts
May 01, 2010
11:31 AM
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@Tuckster - Harp players are geekier than guitar players.
@Kingley - David Barret is doing another amp comparison this year. I'm supplying a Mini Meat for the event. It appears that he's got a ton of harp amps lined up. I'm bringing earplugs, too.
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htownfess
63 posts
May 01, 2010
11:55 AM
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One problem so far is a lack of information about the microphone and tube configuration and bias mode and control settings and so on. When I watch one of the Mission videos, I need to know whether it's 6L6s or 6V6s, fixed or cathode bias, fat switch on or off, what're the volume/tone settings, is it lined out or not. I could make educated guesses about all those matters, but that's not the same as knowing for sure and having real reference points for what the amp does, grasping what difference those features can make.
If a Front & Center microphone is so good at feedback rejection, and has such sterling tonal qualities, and lets you turn the amp up so much further, and is being used with the amp in the video, and I haven't got a F&C mic . . . then I have to figure another $175 to get what I'm hearing and seeing in the video. $1199 + $175 is $1376, edging up toward Sonny Jr. Cruncher territory. If you need some magic microphone or an AFB+ or both to make an amp work as well as we see in a video, the customer deserves to know what's going on. Why did I use & mention a $70 Superlux mic in the Tone+/Epi half stack demo that's on the Lone Wolf site? To show people you *don't* need a magic mic to get the results audible in the vid, and to show what the pedal can do for a typical short-on-low-end mass-produced contemporary bullet mic.
One's impulse is to show the amp to the absolute best possible advantage, but that is not necessarily fair to the customer. Better if one mainly uses common mics, harps, etc. In fact, we put up a couple Lone Wolf videos where we knew the rig was far from optimal, mainly to get something up in a hurry, but also because it honestly represents results like the ones you'll get if you go out and plug your new LW preamp pedal into an unfamiliar PA and do a quick setup with a roomful of strangers watching and get going in a hurry, because that's real life.
An important point: If an amp is being touted as being loud enough to get up over "LOUD blues jams," then I want to see somebody playing it on "Pride and Joy" or "Roadhouse Blues" on an A harp with two guitars and keys and a rock drummer and a funk bass player at a jam where there's not even a harp player in the house band, let alone running the jam. Demos in the context of a dense and intrinsically unfriendly mix do matter in evaluating how an amp hangs in. So far we're not seeing that.
Of course it's useful to see solo harp breakdowns, to see a nice sparse arrangement of something like "Standing Around Crying" with the drummer using brushes. If there's all kinds of room to hear the amp well, the opposite pole from the noisy situation, that's wonderful . . . but we need to hear both extremes.
So far on the aforementioned quiet stuff, what I'm hearing from the Mission amp is lotsa edge and not much body, clarity galore. Makes me wonder if the fat switch is on, what the bias mode is, etc. Now that edgy clarity, that's what'll be needed in the dense, loud mixes, so one has to cope with it somewhat in quiet contexts, and thus I'm willing to make allowances. But I'd sure like to know, at the least, whether what I'm watching is 5Y3/6V6s/cathode bias, or GZ34/6L6s/fixed bias, or what. There's going to be a learning curve for the customer to take advantage of all that flexibility, so why not start to think it through at the shopping stage?
Tell me what the harp is, too, while you're at it. Different models of harp do not sound the same, and I factor that in.
I know from experience how difficult it is to get representative video in the wild, how frustrating it can be, especially if you're trying to get an entire decent song. So though I'm in the Ev630 camp so far, that skepticism is just an initial impression.
Boutique single 12" twin-6L6 harp amps don't have a great real-world track record, so there's plenty of opportunity to set the bar higher if this new one performs as claimed.
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rbeetsme
262 posts
May 01, 2010
1:21 PM
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Adam plays through a battery powered Mouse feeding into a Premier twin 8. It's HIS sound. Might not be YOUR sound. It's pretty subjective.
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MP
215 posts
May 01, 2010
2:10 PM
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MAN!!!I'M GETTIN' SOOOO PISSED OFF!!! just kidding guys.
they sound like good amps. i've tried a variety of amps- cruncher included. i'm really big right now on an admiral head powering 12" alnico. premier twin 8s are killer. also i dig a '63 champ and a homemade 5F2 with an 8" and a 10". i fail to see what the big deal is here.
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MP
219 posts
May 01, 2010
7:06 PM
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i second what dennis said.
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Mission Amps
2 posts
May 01, 2010
7:21 PM
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Yikes... although not just any amplifier, it's just an amplifier guys!
Yes, it is dedicated in design and features to blues and electrified harmonica players... it's a working man's amp, not a $2500, super wanker, woof-woof lawyer's amp.
It's not a guitar amp... it didn't start off being a guitar amp and NO, I'm not changing anything so that it can be used by a guitar player doubling on harp.
This is a harp amp.
Now, I know the Chicago 30 WILL NOT be all things to all players.
That should be obvious to the many players here who have different skills, tastes and equipment requirements.
One of the wonderful things about making music is that instrumentation diversification is paramount to broadening the spectrum of music and performing.
Even though this might be hard to believe, I really am
trying hard to make an affordable, limited production amplifier, built around a smaller cabinet size that is not a back breaker and of course, not just another "tweaked" Bassman with a different speaker configuration.
Yes, as times permits I do have a 2x10, a 3X10 and 1x15 on the drawing board.
Yes, in about 6 weeks, the Chicago amp will be available with a 240v primary for the players outside North America... specifically Europe.
With respect to Rick Davis...
Holy Cow!
Rick is extremely excited about his amp... ha ha... I can't help that.
But since it has come up here, and there seems to be some rather ugly meaning statements tossed around about it...
Rick has ZERO to do with Mission Amps.
Yes I play drums in his blues band twice a month.
However, he has NO pecuniary interests in this or any other Mission Amps project.
NONE... and that really means none!!
He paid full price for his Chicago amp and is simply, and absolutely, thrilled with the amp.
If anything, I used him at his expense... not the other way around.
His participation in the Chicago project amounts to this:
I've talked to him on the phone many times about "what if's" with respect to harp players wants and needs, I also asked him over to my shop three or four times to try out many mods or tweaks over a two week period while I was doing circuit experimentation... many times he was bored to death and falling asleep while I was rewiring and redoing the circuit board.... it takes a lot of time.
I also asked him a couple times to bring a bunch of different microphones over so I could try some tricks in the input section to accommodate a multitude of mic signals.
You players all know how that mic can effect the sound of an amp.... I'm trying to make sure a sad sack player with a cheapo mic still ends up with a real good journeyman's sound.
I think those players with high end mics will be even more delighted.
I also believe he has a vested "personal participation interest" in the Chicago amp project. Many of the final circuit changes and final tunings I made really turned his crank and made him flip out over the final amp tone.
But, I have LOTS of customers who I also invite over to participate in final tunings of ideas I have... this is a "MUST DO" in my field to develop any new product.
Some amps are terrific and some are dead ends.
I think this one is a home run.
The whole concept is to have a really good sounding, light-mid weight, 20-30 watt amp, at a reasonable cost and with out the BS boutique drivel that is thrown around regarding vintage caps, trannys, tubes and any other buzz word junk that is probably Net hype nonsense.
The truth is that woodsheding and trial and error of a good basic idea is the secret.
I have many years experience in vacuum tube amplification and have learned this lesson over and over.
What sounds good, is good... regardless!! Frequently, the whole is greater then the sum if it's parts.
Many local players who have plugged into the Chicago 30, are very happy with the way the new amp sounds and I expect the project to be very successful.
I invite anyone of you to ask any questions you might have... if it is not too awkward, I'll try and address them here if it is OK with Adam.
Otherwise, please feel free to email me or call me... I'm not hiding anywhere and I'm, actually very easy to talk to... my Net reputation will verify that.
Some of you know me and some of you don't.
Behind the scenes, I have mentored many of the newer boutique amp builders out there you might know and won't negatively comment about their products nor will I throw any of my amp building friends under a bus so we won't be having those type of conversations.
Side note:
I wish some of you were closer for a hands on, amp try out of this amp as Net speculation is a double edged sword and can really mess up the facts.
Rick Davis is trying to talk me into bringing one or two amps out to the SPAH this summer with Ronnie Shellist, another customer of mine who has helped me tweak some harp amp projects over the years.
Ronnie will be demoing harmonicas at the Suzuki booth.
If there is not a conflict of interest with Suzuki, at least one of the amps with him will be a Mission Amp Chicago.
Forgive my over wordiness.... and I hope the civility of this whole thread can be maintained.
Last Edited by on May 01, 2010 7:30 PM
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bigd
99 posts
May 01, 2010
8:10 PM
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Thanks for the post Bruce. d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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Ev630
336 posts
May 01, 2010
9:46 PM
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"...it's a working man's amp, not a $2500, super wanker, woof-woof lawyer's amp."
LOL. So I'm a super-wanker, woof-woof lawyer now? Twenty years of gigging through three dozen amps - I must have dreamt all that shit up, LOL.
;)
Thanks for weighing in on your amp.
Drew
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harpwrench
251 posts
May 02, 2010
6:35 AM
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Yep and so are Rod, Rick and Dennis with their HarpKings perhaps? lol
Last Edited by on May 02, 2010 7:25 AM
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tmf714
86 posts
May 02, 2010
6:56 AM
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@ TMF714 "Amp output is determined by many factors." It's decided by one factor, how much volume (power delivered to the speaker & the speaker's abilty to turn that into dB)the amp makes. I am not aware of a particular brand of 5881/6L6 tube that is head & shoulders above the rest here...the whole NOS vs current production holds no water in this respect. However, you won't necessarily buy an amp because it makes more power than another, you will buy it usually because of the sound it makes, as long as it makes enough.
Incorrect-if you swap tubes and re-bias,it can drop output by two to as much as five volts. FACT.
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Greg Heumann
420 posts
May 02, 2010
8:44 AM
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Great to have yo here, Bruce. Congrats on launching what sounds like a really nice amp.
On a more general note, I hold these truths to be self-evident:
AMP = TONE + VOLUME
VOLUME = WATTS * SPEAKER SURFACE AREA
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Mission Amps
3 posts
May 02, 2010
2:10 PM
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Thanks BigD, Greg and all the others...
Hey Greg do you talk to Kenny Dore at all anymore... he's a very old friend of mine who I have not spoken to in many many months.
I still have a couple of his Masco 17 combo amps here that he's probably forgotten about.
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Bruce
Mission Amps
soulkicker@missionamps.com
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Greg Heumann
421 posts
May 02, 2010
2:39 PM
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Hi, Bruce
Yes - I talk to him on occasion. I just forwarded your message to him so he has your email address. And I suggested he now owes me one of those Masco's as a "finder's fee." ;)
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Rick Davis
369 posts
May 03, 2010
7:17 AM
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Bruce brings up a good point: He shoots down the moldy old canard that more expensive amps necessarily sound better. You all know it's bullshit.
My band has hosted the biggest blues jam in Denver for about a year, and I've been a jam rat for years. In that time we've seen jammers drag in an unbelievable array of big expensive harp amps, including Sonny Jr, Meteor, etc. Almost without exception, the tone was inversely proportional to the cost of the amp. Most of these guys sounded terrible.
You've all seen it: Newbie players with expensive amps. Somebody convinced them they'd sound better if they spent more money for this or that amp. One guy brought in a Clark Piedmont -- a $3200 boutique guitar amp (!) -- and sounded terrible. Just awful. Some Sonny Jr owners have the worst tone I've ever heard. I think we can all agree that any amp can sound wretched when played by a beginner, no matter what his level of enthusiasm or disposable income.
Which brings us back to this little debate: There are a couple of knuckleheads here with an axe to grind who are taking the hard line that a lesser expensive amp (The Mission Chicago amp at $999) cannot possibly compete with more expensive products. I say BULLSHIT! You don't know what you are talking about.
But if you want to stand on the side of paying MORE for an amp, I think that's great.
The #1 rule for amps is this: If it sounds good, it is good. Just listen. Try to lose your petty biases and just listen. Almost everybody who has tried the Chicago amp has raved about it. Last night a full-on pro harp guy came by the jam, played an amazing set with the amp, and immediately told Bruce he wanted one.
SIDE NOTES: I gigged the amp twice this weekend: Friday night was a bar gig at Jake's Roadhouse, a fun, rowdy biker bar in Denver. One of the few gigs I've played where they asked us to turn UP! The Mission Chicago amp was a screaming tone monster. I played it in the Cathode Bias Mode with the Deep Switch off. In the third set I used my SM57 mic with Greg Heumann's Bulletizer. It just dripped nasty tone, with huge punch and articulation.
Last night was our regular jam at Ziggie's Saloon. My guitar player Jasco brought his Marshall JTM45, and the jam was LOUD. The Mission Chicago amp in the Fixed Bias mode had no trouble being heard without PA support on a stage with the Marshall, a 100-watt Mesa Boogie, a 100-watt AIMS 4x12, and a Harke 450-watt bass amp with two 4x10 cabs. The jam was scheduled to run until 11pm, but we closed the show with a killer set that ran 40 minutes over because so many people were still in the club and diggin' the music. Many people told me how great the harp sounded. Not one person told me I should have bought a more expensive amp.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on May 03, 2010 7:30 AM
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Rick Davis
370 posts
May 03, 2010
7:26 AM
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Greg-
There are a LOT more components to perceived volume than just watts and speaker surface area. Speaker efficiency, for example, plays a major role.
With harp amps the meaningfull measure is USABLE volume. We've all tried playing through monster guitar amps that feed back as soon as we crack the volume past 2. They have high wattage and acres of speaker surface but are useless for harp.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Greg Heumann
422 posts
May 03, 2010
8:53 AM
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Of course, Rick
My little formula attempts to capture the single most important variables in my opinion. All other things being equal, more speaker surface area makes a HUGE difference in "usable volume" but you will never notice it or feel it in your bedroom. You sure will on a large stage in a bigger venue. And an amp should be setup not to be harp friendly no matter what size it is.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Ev630
341 posts
May 03, 2010
8:57 AM
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"One guy brought in a Clark Piedmont -- a $3200 boutique guitar amp (!) -- and sounded terrible."
LOL. Well I own one of those and it cost me 2500. It's the sweetest large amp for gigging harp I've ever heard. The issue here isn't the amp - it's the guy driving it at your jam. Maybe not the best choice for a novice - but a great choice for a woof woof wanker lawyer with lots of flying hours logged.
"Which brings us back to this little debate: There are a couple of knuckleheads here with an axe to grind who are taking the hard line that a lesser expensive amp (The Mission Chicago amp at $999) cannot possibly compete with more expensive products. I say BULLSHIT! You don't know what you are talking about."
Well I can't speak for anyone else but if you are referring to me, that is a mischaracterisation of the point I'm making. I am sure the Mission amp is a fine amp at a great price. My issue is that you have posted on the boards here that the amp is superior in tone to the Cruncher. You just need to prove it - that's the simple point I'm making.
I think they both sound like solid harp amps, but you're the guy making claims for one over the other.
Woof, woof.
;)
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Ev630
342 posts
May 03, 2010
8:59 AM
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BTW - I wish I was a lawyer. Then maybe I could afford another Clark.
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kudzurunner
1392 posts
May 03, 2010
10:02 AM
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@Kingley: "When it comes to boutique amps, you pay your money and make your choice. The best amp in the world for you is not necessarily the best amp in the world for anyone else. All of the people that make these great amps provide wonderful products."
I agree. Amps are like sportscars. There are many, many gorgeous ones. When you put the pedal to the metal, there are many kinds of delicious sounds to be had. There's no one "best" sportscar. There's not even one best sportscar value. And of course the perfect sportscar for one excellent driver isn't necessarily the perfect sportscar for another excellent driver. It's also true that a Ferrari in the hands of an inexperienced driver isn't always pretty to watch--or hear.
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Buddha
1709 posts
May 03, 2010
10:05 AM
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When it comes to amps, I'm old school. I'll plug into whatever is available.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
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ness
184 posts
May 03, 2010
11:33 AM
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Those last two posts sum it all up nicely.
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John
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Kyzer Sosa
468 posts
May 03, 2010
11:42 AM
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again: Is a lambo faster than the ferrari? who cares? they both get you where you want to go with great style...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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Mission Amps
4 posts
May 03, 2010
12:58 PM
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From Greg:
"And an amp should be setup not to be harp friendly no matter what size it is."
Do you mean that as in, "don't set up the amp to be harp friendly"?
I agree with your formula:
AMP = TONE + VOLUME
VOLUME = WATTS * SPEAKER SURFACE AREA
but would also add to it,
the efficiency of the speaker is pretty important and
a good or lousy speaker can make or break the over all tone of an otherwise great sounding amp.
with respect to Kudzrunner and others:
"Amps are like sportscars. There are many, many gorgeous ones. When you put the pedal to the metal, there are many kinds of delicious sounds to be had. There's no one "best" sportscar. There's not even one best sports car value."
Yes... this is why I wanted to make it clear that my amps are not "all things to all people"... I fully expect that some players will want something different.
Such is the way of the world.
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Bruce
Mission Amps
soulkicker@missionamps.com
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Joe_L
207 posts
May 03, 2010
2:03 PM
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I look forward to taking the Mission Chicago for a test drive.
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toddlgreene
1300 posts
May 03, 2010
2:03 PM
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Balsa wood floors? Does it come with a rubber band and a propeller too?
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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paul45
18 posts
May 03, 2010
2:11 PM
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But MY SPORTSCAR does.....here we go again.
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Kyzer Sosa
471 posts
May 03, 2010
2:14 PM
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tmf: i dont think so... the ZR-1 is the only one that comes close to the viper and its damn near the same price...heres one of many many links i found on the subject...
http://www.insideline.com/dodge/viper/2008/comparison-test-2008-dodge-viper-srt-10-coupe-vs-2007-chevrolet-corvette-z06.html
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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