Would someone care to bring a Mission Chicago amp and a Cruncher to Hill Country Harmonica next month. There is going to be a bunch of different amps there to try out. Check the Hill Country Harmonica Forum.
"The Mission Chicago amp costs less, sounds better, and has superior features. That is why I'm excited about it."
Sounds better and superior features are opinions and not facts. Personally, I like amps without lots of features.
"I know you vigorously defend your own choices, often by blasting out all these BS obfuscations and irrelevancies. I repeat, Gary Onofrio and I have made peace. Why can't you just let it go?"
Why can't you let the Chicago go? Lol!
"In my opinion the endorser game is a waste of the customer's money. Giving away amps to celebrity endorsers drives up the price the rest of us have to pay."
FACT: Being an endorser doesn't mean you get it for a discount or for free. See any Hohner endorser and Jason Ricci's relationship with HarpGear.
"Just so you know, however, a VERY well known harp player -- someone who has played with the very best for decades and who had an influence in the Chicago blues tone -- has ordered a Mission Chicago Amp. He watched the videos and said "That is the tone I've been looking for." He paid full price for the amp. If he wants to say nice things about the amp, I'll let you know about it. There is zero "endorsment" relationship."
Maybe we need to define "endorsement" for the sake of this conversation so everyone is on the same page?
"When creating the Mission Chicago amp our goals were to make the best sounding mid-sized amp on the planet at a lower price. We surveyed many other amps for price, features, and tone. We conducted market research as to consumer taste. We examined the circuits of many other harp amps. I think we've achieved our goals."
For some one not affiliated, you sure use the phrase "we" and "our" a lot. I understand you aren't getting paid and did pay for the amp, but you are an endorser and you endorse it very heavily...and I am sure there is some gain to you in doing so whether it be money or not. THAT IS TOTALLY FINE and I am not meaing to put you on the defensive, but much like Brendan P. or Chris M. or John Payne, you have a vested interest and bias towards harp specific products.
"Greg, you need to relax a bit; you're being a bit of a psycho about this. Why am I not entitled to my own opinions about an amp I had a lot to do with creating? Gary Onofrio makes a very fine amp, and it's cool that you like it. Why are you so agitated?"
You state many of those opinions as facts and if anyone is psycho on the board I think your now probably close to 100 posts on this amp are a bit obsessive compulsive. I am totally being a smart @$$ here and giving you a hard time as a friend.
"Gary Onofrio and his supporters make superlative claims about the Cruncher amp, insisting it is the elite amp in the class. That makes comparisons to it inevitable. It is unseemly to get so angry when challenged."
Ok, think about what you just said...replace Gary Onofrio with Rick Davis and Cruncher with Mission. Some on the board might feel you are calling the kettle black. Just sayin. I largely stay out of this stuff because 1.) I am not after that sort of sound and 2.) it is idle chatter, but I am feeling a bit mischievious today.
"I am quite familiar with Mojo Musical Supply. I've chatted with the owner. I have a link to their website on my blog. They are a class operation.
BUT.... That is still not NEARLY as impressive as having Bruce Collins personally build your amp, from selecting and positioning the components, to soldering and testing and listening.
If you have a problem with your Mission Chicago amp you can call and talk to the guy who designed and built it! Not possible with a Cruncher."
-Rick Davis
"I am quite familiar with Hohner. I've chatted with the owner. I have a link to their website on my blog. They are a class operation.
BUT.... That is still not NEARLY as impressive as having Brad Harrison personally build your harp, from selecting and positioning the components, to gapping and testing and listening.
If you have a problem with your B-Rad you can call and talk to the guy who designed and built it! Not possible with a Hohner."
I'm not sure I get the cleverness of the last two comments. Because you guys cannot define a word you need to comment on it on a harp amp related post rather than look it up in a dictionary. How about this: What about the disingenuous identifying their own prejudices and the impartial not being so partial. Whatever else you claim: Rick has exploited an amplifier through video representations. As has Sonny, and Scott, and Brian, and Wezo, and Robert. All these examples serve the harp world well: Credit where credit is due. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
bigd...there was a very famous philosopher who, when confronted with a topic of debate, said the first step was defining terms.
That's the point here. Rick is misusing words in regards to endorsing a product. His comments are of the mind that if you endorse something you get it for free. That is not mutually exclusive. He either needs to clarify that by endorse he means paid endorser or that he is speaking in generalities.
It is simply not true that by being an endorser or endorsing something that a person is getting an item for free or even at a discount. There are also many times when someone endorses something and has no formal affiliation with the manufacturer.
Right now, I endorse HarpGear amps. I don't even need to know who Brian Purdy is to say that. Heck, he might even endorse me endorsing his products. That doesn't mean we're making money off of each other or have a "deal". ----------
Hummm....Ninja, I'd be careful about this endorsing the endorser thing (kind of like me guarding the guard when I'm a guard! :) Might kick off some sort of endorsing ground loop feedback thing.
But...on topic, all I can add is that I've had a Cruncher sitting in my living room for a couple weeks now and I'm having the time of my life going through Sonny's manual (excellent!) trying out setups, bright vs normal channels, bridged channels, with/without pedals, different mics and haven't even got into tube swaps yet. It may not have the "features" of a Mission but I've barely scratched the surface of what this amp will do. But we all need to remember, it ain't the gear, it's the player. (But it sure is fun to dabble)
Before I joined this forum I didn't know anything about the amps that are out there. With one exception... Harpgear. The reason for this is the endorsement by Jason and the vids of Adam and Dennis.
I also didn't know about any new mics except for the F&C because of Ronnie Shellist. I only found Blows Me Away because of his position in Google searches. When I got there he had CM and KW endorsements.
All of these products are on top of my short list when I am ready to take the next step in gear-a-holics.
It's not the amp, it's the player. Blah, blah. What about us guys who have been gigging for twenty PLUS years and can work with almost any amp to get solid tone? When are we gonna get some respite from this old saw?
Can anyone recommend a forum where everyone knows what they're doing and can discuss gear without being told for the 1,000,000th time that they need good acoustic tone before they buy an amp?
Mike, thanks for all the interesting comments! I'll try to respond to a few.
As stated before, I have zero business or financial interest in the Mission harp amps. If you buy one, I don't make a cent. What attracted me to the project was the chance to help design and create a great harp amp. What harp player wouldn't want to do that?
Celebrity endorsers certainly get discounts on the products they help sell. You or I may not, but they do. Hohner official endorsers get harps for 50 percent, for example. I've spoken to several harp amp makers about their endorsement policies and they vary.
Harp-L and other forums frequently have testimonials from owners of various harp amps. My post here is no different. Gary is known to fiercely argue the merits of his amp. I don't understand the double standard here.
You make a big deal of distinguishing between fact and opinion. Fine! I did the same thing when I noted that Gary's claims for his amp are wrong: It is not the only amp using PIO caps, and it is not the most flexible amp on the market. With the Cruncher you are stuck with Fixed Bias and a more limited range of tonal possibilities. I'm not attacking Gary; I am challenging his assertions.
6SN7- There are no scathing posts about Gary on my website. That was a LONG time ago. I took them all down because Gary asked me to. We spoke at length on the phone and through email and came to a very nice understanding. I consider him a friend; we have a LOT in common. We forgave each other for things that happened in the past. It's time for the rest of you to do the same.
Gary and I are a lot alike: We both have tremendous enthusiasm for things we believe in. I believe the new Mission Chicago amp is the dollar-for-dollar the best blues harp amp on the planet, and I'm happy to say so. Sorry if that bothers anybody...
The Mission Chicago amp stands on its own merits. This kerfuffle about hurt feelings has ZERO to do with how good the amp sounds. I encourage you to check out the details and videos at the website and form your own opinions.
I'm sure that the Mission "Chicago" amp is a good amp. Why Rick chose to compare it with a Sonny Jr "Cruncher" is beyond me. The two amps have very little in common.
The truth of the matter is that Meteor, HarpGear, Sonny Jr, Mission, Buffalo, Clark, Victoria, etc are all good amps. It all comes down to personal taste which is preferred by the individual player. None of these amps are "better" than each other. They are just different.
"Rick Davis, wonderful person SONNYTONE@aol.com to harp-l 7/27/09
Sorry to disappoint any of you that thought this was going to be a negative thread; I just wanted to briefly say that Rick and I had a great conversation on the phone, got to hear each other's voices, and I could not be happier to finally know and understand a bit more about him. We have much of the same passion for what we do, which when people are a lot alike, can sometimes clash. However being able to put a voice behind the words, which I admit my words can definitely not fully represent who I am, mainly on this list or on the very difficult medications I Had to take, is the old school way of dealing with questions. I hope we can build on this relationship which I am positive we will."
As I said over and over, I like and respect Gary Onofrio. His amps are very good.
fyi K. Rob had to shut down creating Buffalo harp amps because of the traffic jam that new children and other jobs create. Imo the Buffalo and Texas Crude had/have the best aesthetics. p.s. Maybe we should all list our gear in full disclosure: Me: 1962 Magnatone 415 Clio Bass amp with a 15'' Eminence rather than the 4 8'' organic to the amp (here is the harpsucker youtube demo of my literal amp played by my friend Mark Grandfield before I bought it from him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdDNYk_sJZo I also have a Premier twin 8 with a 12'' and reverb, A Univox (another name for Premier "combo bass amp with a 12'' Jensen (also from Mark and one of his favorites), and probably my favorite tonally: A 1955 Magnatone M-197 Champ sized little treasure (previously owned by the guitarist from "Cheap Trick") And I have owned a Mini Meat, small Harpgear, Kinder Soulful and HK, and Mission with a 10''. All good- all different! My best. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
Thanks for the correction Dennis, I forgot to mention that Rob wasn't making them anymore.
Over the years I have had many different amps (too many to mention). Boutique amp wise I have owned a HarpGear 5F1 (HG1) and a HarpGear Double Trouble. Both of which were excellent amps.
Nowadays I play through either a Fender '65 Princeton Reverb Reissue or a Fender '59 Bassman LTD. Both of which make superb harp amps.
Life's rich pageant being what it is, we have a remarkable phenomenon serendipitously emerging from all the kerfuffle: A reinvention of the wheel. A new boutique harp amp that resembles and seems to perform much like the boutique harp amp that started it all: the single 12" twin-6L6 tweed Kendrick Texas Crude. But at less than half the price, and with several additional nifty and practical features. That is progress.
Rick, I am glad you took that trash down off the web site. I had up until that time enjoyed the site, and then left when the pissing match began. I'll check it out again.
I like your line, "Gary and I are a lot alike." LOL! Thats a loaded one!
Good luck with the amp, as much as I would like one now, I am going to wait to see how the next couple speaker configurations sound. Maybe as the new models and improvements roll out, the price will go down like the SJ's!
Can anyone recommend a forum where everyone knows what they're doing and can discuss gear without being told for the 1,000,000th time that they need good acoustic tone before they buy an amp?
;) User Profile User: Ev630 Website:
your Profile tells me so much i guess we should know of your experiance of 20 years Playing:)
6SN7- That's cool. A 2x10 will be next. The price will be a little highe than the 1x12.
Let me ask you this... In an ideal 2x10 harp amp, what speakers would you use? I dislike Weber 12-inch speakers for harp because they get so many ghost notes and cone cry, but the 10s are good.
What speakers would you like to see in a 2x10 amp?
"As stated before, I have zero business or financial interest in the Mission harp amps. If you buy one, I don't make a cent. What attracted me to the project was the chance to help design and create a great harp amp. What harp player wouldn't want to do that?"
i dont care what i make off something, if i CREATE or help to create something, i have a vested intrest.. it has become MY baby.. even if i just help.. i have a level of bias to MY (whatever it is)..
im not in this fight, but i have read along... and this just seems silly to me.. ---------- Marty we're no GOD
R. No doubt you already know this but the "Weber harp board" has a lot of builders, speaker and circuit nerds, players, etc. that could be a great fishing hole for speaker input. It is far less effusive and populated than this forum but can be quite helpful on a technical plane.... forgive the naivete but if all the circuitry is similar is it a universal that 2 10''s will have superior projection relative to 1 12'' or does that depend more on other variables? The stacked 10''s in Kinder's Soulful could be thunderous. The 15'' in my Magnatone is big and rounder sounding than the 2 10''s. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
Gwood, are you now saying that I should not have a bias toward the Mission Chicago amp? That I somehow should be totally neutral?
Sheesh, that is absurd. Everybody has bias toward their preferences. I am unashamedly enthusiastic about the Mission Chicago amp. It is among the best-sounding harp amps I've ever heard. Why should I pretend to be neutral? I don't get it.
It has the volume and punch and dynamics and low feedback you've been looking for. The tone is complex and organic. There are so many overtones swirling around that you don't really need a delay pedal; that would just wreck it.
This is NOT another warmed over Bassman circuit. It is a new circuit designed from the ground up specificaly for fat Chicago blues harp tone.
I am very proud of the small part I had in it's development. I am NOT neutral.
Rick - Personally, I really liked the 10A125-O in the Mini Meat and Pro Junior.
I agree with Dennis. You should probably ask on the Weber board. You would probably get answers from more informed people. Based on some of the other forums where Bruce has posted in the past, I would be surprised if he shipped his amps with Webers.
thats not what i was saying.. i said you werent neutral.. i said you ARE bias.. cause you have something vested, time.. you keep saying you have/get nothing from this : " have zero business or financial interest in the Mission harp amps" this may be true, but you have PRIDE.. im i think you should have pride.. you helped to build it for god's sake.. i just dont think your the right person to be doing any kind of genuine comparison.. you are biased.. just my opinion.. ---------- Marty we're no GOD
Two 10s have more cone surface area than a single 12, so -- all other things being equal -- they will move more air and create more sound pressure. But there are so many acoustic variables, particularly speaker efficiency. There are no hard and fast rules.
A 2x10 version of the Mission Chicago amp will be coming soon. Can't wait to play it.
BTW, A buddy of mine has one of those old suitcase Magnatone amps with a 15-inch speaker. WOW! What at great tone.
you have a point.. guess i will wait for a writeup on your amp from one of out other members.. some one with out intrest.. good luck rick.. ---------- Marty we're no GOD
Hey Nasty - there are a lot of great, experienced players who have dropped into this thread - Dennis, Stephen (Htownfess), etc, etc, etc. I'm sure they also get tired of being told for the 1,000,000th time "it's not the amp - you need to work on your acoustic playing blahdey-blahdey-blah".
This is a GEAR thread. Let's throw our Puritan conservatism to the wind, get nekkid and talk gear with reckless abandon!
"I am an uncompensated endorser of the bourbons of Kentucky." "Me too. Did you know they named a French aristocratic family after this great whiskey? Who'd have thunk it?"
...let's not forget the chocolate sandwich cookie!
as long as i could try a thousand dollar (or more) amp before I bought it, I dont care what it is or who makes it. if it suits my palette, thats the one I get... and I dig the idea of a 5, 10, 20 and 35 watt selection in my arsenal... It seems thats what pros shoot for anyway. Who needs a dozen amps? are the differences that obvious between the two that any of this really matters?
Is a lambo faster than the ferrari? who cares? they both get you where you want to go with great style... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Yo Evo ok then mate,all this talk about speaker size what speaker 10 12 15 wich is best for harp,
Ok i take it this amp is in the same size configuration or class as the Harp Gear DT or other variants,this amp has 1 12' DT has 2x8" 8x8=16 as mentioned above the 2x8" push more air,
supposedly giveing a better fuller sound & more projection than one big speaker, with an amp of this size and the DB 15 watts why not put 4x6" speakers giveing 24" of speaker,
i just made i quade box with 4x5-1/4" vintagea GE 4ohms speakers for my Harp Gear-2 the one you hooked me up with Bro, i find the tone is much better than the 8" weber sig, and now going to do a 4x6" box,
so is guess it gets messy from here 1x10 2x10 8x10 10x12 8x6 where do we stop but Im going for a 4x6" set up for now :)
"Yo Evo ok then mate,all this talk about speaker size what speaker 10 12 15 wich is best for harp," Not EV here, but speaker needs to be taken into consideration with the overall design...if you design from the ground up around a specific speaker a good builder will make it work. Brand and construction/characteristics are just as relevant as size. If you like the sound of a certain 15" then that's what youll use. 10" are more directional, but that helps them be more feedback resistant & they have lighter faster moving cones (all else being equal). 8" can sound cool, but not always project well on their own.
If you increase the number of speakers, in parallel at a matched load, you increase the efficiency of the speaker cab (as long as you do not decrease the feedback threshold - e.g. my champ into 3x10" or 4x10" makes less volume than into its single 8" because it's harder to avoid feedback, 2x10" will work well)...hence 3x10"/4x10" are very popular.
Mission Chicago is really in a larger amp class than the DT (20W?), but the DT seems to punch above it's weight. 2x8 does = 16, but that's not how you measure speaker area...
Pi*r^2.
So 2x8 = 100" squared.
1x12" = 113" sq.
2x10" = 157" sq.
1x15" = 176.7" sq.
4x10" = 314" sq.
The trouble with adding more speakers after a while is the reduced load rating, 4x8ohms in parallel = 2ohm load...you don't really want the tubes operating into a speaker load much below that. You can wire the same speakers in parallel-series or series parallel for an 8ohm load...but this can reduce efficiency a little, not a problem if you have the power behind them & you may even prefer the thicker tone this produces.
6" speakers, there are very few models around (best to use a size that gives you proven alternative models with a production amp, but if you have the 4x6" then you may as well use them) usually only 4ohm (so can only realy be wired for 4ohms or 16ohms total)...after a point the smaller speakers give away efficiency...that one's really a non starter for most folks.
A mixture of 8" & 10" can work well. 7LimitJI has a 4x8" & 2x10" cab (356" sq.)
To give you an idea of a like for like comparison, if you ran the same chassis (same voltages & currents) in to the following speaker loads, matched to the OT, they would give the lowest to highest possible volume in the same order - 1x15", 3x10", 4x10". To go OT for a bit, 6G7A Brownface Bandmaster heads can be picked up fairly cheaply, service it, fit an OT with 2ohm & 8ohm taps and you have an amp that you can run into 1x15" (or 1x12"), 3x10", 4x10" just by changing the cabinet. This would make a flexible stage amp, 1x15" for smaller gigs, 4x10" for bigger stages.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 2:45 AM
"i just made i quade box with 4x5-1/4" vintagea GE 4ohms speakers for my Harp Gear-2 the one you hooked me up with Bro, i find the tone is much better than the 8" weber sig,"
Ha ha! Yes, it's the Cruncher in purple tolex, with the wheat grill cloth...sometimes called a Harpking! Gary seems to be adjusting the purple amp between 3:42-3:57. To be fair, looks like there is also a Cruncher beside it, in tandem (as in some of Gary's other vids) but stage monitor obscures the view.
Reminds me of that joke about the fighting dogs, the guy has a "long nosed, short haired, short legged, long tailed terrier" that demolishes the opposition...in some parts they call it a crocodile.
Keep 'em coming...
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 7:58 AM
Rick, you asked my gentle opinion on the 10" speakers. Well, there is a plethora of choices and combinations, inquiring @ blog boards is not going to be as helpful as testing individual speakers and combinations.
I have been a fan of alnico speakers. I have a cab w/ 2 10" Webers, one ribbed, one not, I think the # is 10a125. They work fine. But speakers selection and combination has interested me over the past 2 years as I have developing my ears to listening better. Sounds like you have also, with references to ghost notes, etc ( an explanation of this would be nice, you have said it here and at your site a number of times)
When I first bought my SJ, I had a choice of one w/ 4 weber alnicos (2 smooth, 2 ribbed) or the standard setup @ that time, 2 weber alnicos (1 smooth,1 ribbed) and 2 weber ceramics. The ceramic/alnico (to me) sounded better and I took it. A year later, Gary introduced the Super Sonny sound panel and new speaker combo along with the tube set up. I was curious about this as the feedback from a local harp player was that this rig was great and a step up from the stock 410. I was reluctant as I had spent a lot already on this amp, but went to his shop and got the parts. I was stunned @ the results of sound panel in concert with a speaker replacement (the new tube was useless I thought.) The amp not only sounded great but viscerally projected fantastically. It was a step up in the evolution of the amp.
So I guess my point is this Rick, why go w/ 2 10"s when combinations of 8"/10" might be more interesting. IMHO, the 12" Cannabis Rex speaker is a guitar speaker and I don't think is good for me. (Gary hates hemp speakers, maybe thats why you went for it! LOL its a joke. But seriously, your take on the SJ SS upgrade is where you lost me on your blog and your ripped Gary unmercifully on the panel)
Clearly a lot of thought has gone into the guts and chassis of the Chicago. I would say do the same for the speakers. Asking here will never replace bench testing. Clearly you have done a lot of research, asked questions, my gentle suggestion is put more work into speaker selection.
As for the price going up, It would be nice if the Chicago could be an affordable for the people. There are ways to do this such as out sourcing as HG and SJ and the quality will remain high. It can be done.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 5:55 AM
"As for the price going up, It would be nice if the Chicago could be an affordable for the people. There are ways to do this such as out sourcing as HG and SJ and the quality will remain high. It can be done." Sorry, you lost me there...the Chicago is significantly cheaper than the similarly powered amps from the manufacturers you mention?
AGAIN! I posted this before. You all claim that if you don't have good acoustic tone you won't have good amplified tone. Just because you have good acoustic tone doesn't mean you'll have good amplified tone. An amplifier is an instrument. You need to learn how to play it. All of the amps mentioned sound different when played by different players, as do guitars or drums. I consider myself as having great acoustic tone while my amplified tone is a work in progress. Pluto
I was going by Aki Kumar's comments on the Youtube page, where he said Smith used a Cruncher, Barret used a Supro and Kumar used an SJ410.
I didn't get out my magnifying glass to try and spot the backline. But if you're right that Gary used an HK in this clip, a Tweedenstein in the other and Crunchers and others in the various other clips, it goes to show he sounds the same no matter what, doesn't it little feller?
Now my advice to you 5F6H is to work on your acoustic tone before you buy your first amp. Remember tone comes from YOU, okay? Okay.
5F6H- There is lot less amp components in a Chicago than a Cruncher. While I think the amp is a unique offering, comparing it price wise to comparable HG amps is more apples to apples than the Cruncher.
I say, if you want a cheaper custom harp amp and you like the tone, go for the Mission. If you don't, then don't. But don't tell me the tone is better than the Cruncher. As good? Maybe. But better? That is entirely subjective and not yet evident from the vids posted.
6SN7 - There's still a cab, sizeable power transformer, choke, output transformer (most expensive parts in an amp)...the lack of 1 tube & associated parts/wiring ($20 parts, less than 2 hours labour?) & 2x8" speakers does not account for the difference in cost alone. T
Let me stress - the Cruncher IS excellent value, it has good quality parts & is not expensive for a hand built amp of that calibre, same goes for the HG35 & the Mini Meteor...but the Chicago is a similar output & cheaper (I'm not making any statement relating to sound/taste/prefernce, just observing the facts). Compare, for instance, to the prices asked by Victoria & Fender...the Chicago is available for the same price as the Fender 57 Champ. If Bruce's aim was to provide good value for money, he has achieved that with flying colours & should be applauded for it.
If $999 is too much money for a handbuilt 32W amp, you need a reality check. I wouldn't even attempt to compete with that.
If you track the value of handbuilt amps, compared to Fenders of the 50's & 60's you will see that they are much cheaper in real terms today, than they have ever been. Of course, in tems of price, there are the lower cost PCB/particle board amps, some of which can make great stage amps with a little work but when their time is up they go in a dumpster, or have to be rewired at around the same cost as the initial purchase...the aforementioned amps can get fresh filter caps every 10-20yrs & be handed down to your grandchildren.
EV630, yes Gary Smith sounds great through anything..."little feller"? You flatter me! :-)
