Grey Owl
352 posts
Oct 07, 2013
10:09 AM
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I would like to know how to profile a reed correctly and if this makes a significant difference in playability.
Is the first task to remove any curvature on the reed?
Is the next task to make sure no part of the straightened reed sinks into the slot?
The next consideration is how to form the gap (between the underside of the reed and the surface of the reed plate) at the free end of the slot.(ie the tip of the reed) I understand this gap might be different from player to player depending how hard you play and whether you want to play overblows/draws
Is this achieved by keeping the straightened reed parallel with the reed plate along most of the length of the reed then easing up the reed somewhere near the end to produce the gap. ( in this case, this will result in slightly curved reed)
…..or ease the straightened reed up at the rivet end to strike a straight line to the required gap (so that the reed remains completely straight but no longer remains parallel to the reed plate)
Hope this makes sense.
Any advice would be appreciated. Ta.
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tookatooka
3535 posts
Oct 07, 2013
10:15 AM
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Good question GO. Something that's always puzzled me is, if you do need to curl the end up, how do you do it if there a great chunk of metal on the end in the low key harps? I've not tried profiling yet. Be intrigued to hear the replies though.
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HarpNinja
3517 posts
Oct 07, 2013
10:17 AM
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Richard Sleigh has a downloadable series of videos you can buy at Rockin' Ron's. I would suggest checking that out.
Basically, you want the reed to enter the slot at the same time at all points that will enter the slot.
On a lot of stock harps, the middle will enter before the free end.
There is a lot variance in how people do that, even within the top tier builders. Richard shares a technique that is really helpful - and very similar to how I do it.
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arzajac
1163 posts
Oct 07, 2013
10:23 AM
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The magic here is that the reed is curved at rest (they all are to some degree), but must pass through the slot all at the same time. Since the slot is straight, the reed not only must be perpendicular to the slot, but at the level of the slot and straight at that instant. What shape it is before and after that instant and how to measure that (where to apply pressure?) depends on the reed, the key and the hole.
Did I just give away the biggest secret in the industry? No. People have known this for a very long time. The fact is it is very very labor-intensive. I have callous on the tip of my finger from doing reedwork (seriously.) And it takes a lot of practice and perseverance to be able to become proficient at profiling reeds.
(Everyone is posting at the same time! What a great question!)
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Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 07, 2013 10:25 AM
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MP
2957 posts
Oct 07, 2013
11:37 AM
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Hi Grey Owl.
boy, things have changed! i remember asking what profile meant and my post was completely ignored.
though the above advice on how to do it is right on it is impossible to explain it sufficiently. You need to actually see it done as in r. sleighs turbo charge video. i just saw that video for the very first time about a month ago. good video but he talks a lot.
i just mimick reeds that are set really well. i still profile in my own odd way but it's waaaay better to pay someone to show you how. it'll save a lot of you a lot of time and trouble.
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Grey Owl
353 posts
Oct 07, 2013
12:51 PM
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Thanks for the quick response guys! I seem to have encroached on the ‘Holy Grail’ territory of harp adjusting techniques here because I am having difficulty in figuring out what the answer is;) I know these things are pretty difficult to describe adequately and I take your point MP about the value of watching someone do this. I am sure that all customisers will have there own individual approaches to this technique anyway.
Also I can understand why some secrets would be preferred to be left that way if guys have invested a lot of time and effort in developing and refining these techniques not too mention that it is a source of income as well.
.
It was just that I was able to make a big difference to my harps with gapping to facilitate Overblows and Joe Spiers vids helped a lot in this with this. Of course profiling could be a whole different ball game as Arzajac’s callouses will testify;)
*****************************************************************************
Here is a video showing the basics of one approach to arcing I have discovered.
This is a still at 2min12secs into the video
where hole 1 adjustment is finished.
I believe this vid only gives a rough idea of the technique involved as the final reed shape looks convex and not at all like the finished article in the plates below. Using this technique he appears to start off with an exaggerated reed profile rather like my original description with the reed pitching up in a straight line from the rivet end to an overlarge gap. He then seems to work the reed into a convex shape and then pushes the reed down at the rivet end and slowly eases the reed back up along its length leaving an appropriate gap at the end.
On the before and after pics below the finished reed profile looks as if the reed is bedded down a little in the slot for the most part and lifted slightly at the end for the gap.
Does this look anything like the technique you guys use?
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 07, 2013 1:05 PM
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nacoran
7207 posts
Oct 07, 2013
1:45 PM
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Keep in mind there is a whole other layer of reed profiling after this that the companies do. Reeds, along their length, are not uniform in thickness. GH has a great post showing that, way back. I don't know if customizers work on that, but the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, even if they aren't quite the same thing.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that was the idea behind the scoops some people use at the end of the reed slot on the reed plate. If the reed is completely flat in the slot, it won't start swinging properly, but the little scoop might let you set the reed closer to 'perfectly flat' but then create a little spot where the air can get through to start things in motion, but that's just a guess.
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Nate
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isaacullah
2528 posts
Oct 07, 2013
1:59 PM
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Nate: that's my understanding of what tip scooping does. BTW, "scooping" is a misnomer. Look at the last four pics in Grey Owls last post. You see the two little channels filed from the corners of the reedslots? That's how Tinus "scoops". I think the main reason is to allow you to set the gaps really low, but still get the reeds to initiate even if you attack the notes fiercely.
RE: profiling. Yeah, I suppose it's a bit of a black art. I think everyone is alluding to the same thing. The reed should travel smoothly and evenly through slot during it's travel. The issue is whether or not actual curvature of the reed at rest is a good or a bad thing for that. Opinions differ, but I've had good luck with simply making sure that the reed is as flat as possible along it's length, and that all parts of the reed are above the plane of the reedplate (i.e., no part of the reed dips into the slot). I'm sure that there are many ways of improving on this basic reed posture, but IMO, that's the place to start.
In terms of actually doing it, I use a simple brass tool that Chris M. gave me, a dull toothpick, and my thumb. I just slowly and carefully flex and massage the reed using one of the tools and with my thumb supporting from the other side. I take my time and check my progress often. I plink a lot. This process is not separate from gapping. It is one and the same. In the end, you have a reed that is gapped to the height you wan, an with the flat profile that helps it play the best.
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tookatooka
3536 posts
Oct 07, 2013
1:59 PM
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Hmmm! Methinks I'll dip out on this one, too much trouble. I think I'll just stick to some mild gapping and leave it at that. If I had a perfectly, gapped, profiled harp, I doubt it would make me play any better :)
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smwoerner
221 posts
Oct 07, 2013
2:05 PM
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Now you’re all straightened out about the flat profile and making sure the length of the reed passes through the slot at the same time.
After adjusting hundreds of harps you just kind of begin to intuit the profile. Then after a couple hundred more your problem solving skills get better and you don’t have to spend half a day trying to figure out why the 3 draw you just profiled just will not hold the first half-step bend but, it will float on that difficult full-step bend as long as you have lung capacity available…
So, how should the blow reed be profiled for bent draw notes? After all, the blow reed does not pass through the slot on a bent note but, is an integral part of the note.
Like playing, reed profiling is more art than science. Every reed flexes at a different point along its length. It’s at this flex point where the profiling (zero, arc, gap) decisions really come into play. The response of the reed is determined by how these are set. You can set every reed so it has the quickest response possible. That may work for a melody player but, it might drive a chord player nuts.
Changes to the blow reed affect the draw reed and changes to the draw reed affect the blow reed. It’s all a compromise. Just like developing good tone and phrasing, it all comes down to practice.
Above is just profiling. On a custom harp before the profiling ever begins most folks actually do quite a bit of other manipulation to the reed. Then there is the work to the reed plate…a whole other subject…
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arzajac
1165 posts
Oct 07, 2013
2:50 PM
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(I wrote this about 45 minutes ago but I guess I never pressed POST...)
Nate, exactly. Because every company's reed is cut differently and each reed has a different length and shape, a still photo of a reed is pretty much useless at assessing a reed. You need to swing it through the slot and watch it go through - knowing where to reshape the reed is a dynamic process.
And in the above video there is absolutely no way to tell since the camera is not showing you the angle you need. Not to mention his finger is in the way most of the time. That being said, that reed doesn't look like it would play well to me. It totally looks like the tip will enter the slot first!
Watching someone do it is probably better than reading about it or watching a video, but that's no guarantee that you will understand what is going on. I've tried. It's hard to show someone because this is a dynamic process.
Not to mention, it's a tactile process, too. Meaning you can feel the reed as you work on it and that will clue you in to what technique may work or not work at that time, on that reed.
I think you just gotta work at it.
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Grey Owl
354 posts
Oct 07, 2013
3:01 PM
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Thank you for these responses guys. I am beginning to realise this subject is a lot more involved than I originally thought and can't be contained in a few sentences. Very interesting observations Scott! And I hadn't even thought about adjusting the blow reeds.
I really feel a bit intimidated now and may duck out like Tooka. However, as an exercise I might try Isaacs approach
'simply making sure that the reed is as flat as possible along it's length, and that all parts of the reed are above the plane of the reedplate (i.e., no part of the reed dips into the slot'
I might take a look at those Richard Sleigh vids that Harpninja mentioned but I would like to be certain that the vids present a good visual approach that can set me on the right track.
Just seen arzajac's latest post whilst writing this..ummm even more food for thought.
I've opened up Pandora's box here.
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 07, 2013 3:02 PM
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arzajac
1166 posts
Oct 07, 2013
3:10 PM
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One last thing.
If you are going to profile reeds at a high level, you must be able to replace reeds. It's not an option.
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Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 07, 2013 3:10 PM
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STME58
548 posts
Oct 07, 2013
3:25 PM
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I don't know much about profiling but I do know a bit about how beams bend. When I saw that the goal is to get the reed to enter the reed plat flat, I thought it might be good to know the shape a flat reed would take if it had a constant pressure applied to it. The analysis below assumes the reed has a constant cross section. This can be calculated for a varying cross section but the math gets a bit more complicated.
My assumption is that if you bend the reed to have the shape it would take if it were flat initially and had even pressure placed on it from the reed plate side, when you applied an even pressure on the other side, it would be flat when it reached the reed plate.I am not sure how good the assumption is that the pressure on the reed is constant along the reed. However, the shape shown by the red line in about the middle of the page seems to agree with the reed shapes in the posts above.
The analysis below is for an A reed (note the fundamental frequency of 440Hz) I set the pressure to that which if cycled back and forth at the fundamental frequency, the reed would fail at about 10 million cycles ( about 6 hours of sounding)
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 07, 2013 4:34 PM
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S-harp
181 posts
Oct 07, 2013
4:22 PM
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Good topic!
I say pay arzajac's posts some extra attention ...
How the reed bends and travels through ( enters) the slot when in action is one thing that determines the reeds optimal profile when at rest.
So, where does one apply pressure upon the reed to check this?
Depends on which reed and key, I'd say. Generally, I wouldn't push down the reed at the tip, cause that wouldn't simulate the reeds natural swing. I know others dissagree.
Then, each reed is individual to some extent due to its weight/lenght/material -ratio. It takes a bit more "feel" than science ...
After getting it all airtight, reed work is where it's at in my book.
One interresting theory I've come across is that the metal finally sets in its optimal curvature by it self if stressed enough and if the applied profile is close enough to begin with.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Oct 07, 2013 4:35 PM
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smwoerner
222 posts
Oct 07, 2013
4:35 PM
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STME58, I love the science and art stuff comes together. I’m not by my reeds so I can’t check to see which “A” reed you used. As a “C” is the most common let’s assume it’s that “A” reed. This reed is fairly consistent in thickness for the entire length and you model should be fairly accurate. Of course if we’re talking about the 1 blow “A” reed on an “A” harp then we have to factor in the weight and added thickness at the free end which of course is different than the weight at the free end of the 4 blow reed.
And of course if the slot width is different anywhere along its length it will affect the amount of force exerted against the reed at that point.
Luckily there are too many variables to be controlled in the manufacturing process thus ensuring the need of human hands for a harmonica to reach its optimum playability. And of course optimum playability is subjective, thus ensuring a lifetime frustration for builders and players.
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STME58
549 posts
Oct 07, 2013
4:39 PM
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Here are a couple of stills taken from High Speed Video (3000 frames per second) of one of my favorite harps, an Ab SP 20 with Blue Moon comb and opened covers but reed plates as they came from Hohner. View is looking up at the bottom plate. I was able to find a frame just as the reed was entering the slot and a frame an near max travel. It looks like the reed is entering nearly flat. These frames were taken within a few reed cycles of each other. 3000 fps is a bit slow to capture the exact point the reed is entering the plate when the reeds are vibrating in the 400Hz range.
Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the reed in its rest state. Next time I set up for this I will collect better data now that I know a little bit more about what to look for.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 07, 2013 4:52 PM
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nacoran
7209 posts
Oct 07, 2013
4:48 PM
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I wonder if anyone has ever experimented with the shape of the top of the reed plate. I know the bottom has to be flat to be airtight (or you'd have to shape the comb really weird, but would small ridges (aside from being a machining headache- probably easier with a 3D printer) let you adjust the reed differently.
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STME58
550 posts
Oct 07, 2013
5:14 PM
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@smwoerner, The reed modeled is a brass reed 16mm long by .2065mm thick (width does not matter) There is no weight on the end. I believe I got the dimensions from a Suzuki Manji but its been so long since I did it I forgot.
I have a subtle disagreement with your statement, "there are too many variables to be controlled in the manufacturing process". I think this could be controlled, but probably at a higher investment level than any of the Harmonica manufacturers are willing, or able, to risk given the size of the market. I think it would take a small investment in R&D and a large investment in tooling. Having said that, the end result is that your statement is practically true.
@nacroran, 3d printing is not yet to the tolerances you need to create the ridges you are talking about. Coining is a process that could do this but the tooling costs are high. I think a hand coining tool could be made that would raise a short ridge in a brass reed plate.
Last Edited by STME58 on Oct 07, 2013 5:18 PM
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sonny3
50 posts
Oct 07, 2013
5:46 PM
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@ Issac you made the most sense to me bro.I always just gap with the plastic toothpick from my swiss army knife.Works good for me but I'll try and keep it from curving.In my experience new marine bands I'm playing are great ootb and don't need much except light gapping.
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Grey Owl
356 posts
Oct 08, 2013
1:51 AM
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Wow it's getting pretty scientific! Very interesting.
What is the overall benefit of reed profiling? Is it mainly to do with control of OB’s (eliminating squeal) or is it maximising the efficiency of the reed (reducing airiness) to produce a more resonant sound.
If I have taking this up correctly you seem to be shaping the reed at rest to approximate the shape it will take up when in action. I can understand how this might assist efficiency in it’s downward travel into the slot but on it’s return out of the slot it will be wanting to assume a curvature in the opposite direction contrary to the arc it has been shaped to – I guess this is not a problem but how does the science work here.
Here are 2 interesting videos showing slow motion swinging of the reeds in action for draw, blow, bend and overblow.The visible bend on the reed seems to go back to within around 2mm of the rivet end at which point it looks static..
Any observations of what you see here?
Blow/draw/bend
overblow
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arzajac
1167 posts
Oct 08, 2013
4:09 AM
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"What is the overall benefit of reed profiling? Is it mainly to do with control of OB’s (eliminating squeal) or is it maximising the efficiency of the reed (reducing airiness) to produce a more resonant sound."
The goal of profiling the reed is to make it create the most amount of sound with the least amount of breath force. The indirect result of profiling every reed is that the harp responds significantly better, allows for much better control - including blow and draw bending - and is louder and has better tone. To get all of these benefits, though, the harp has to be airtight. If you had to do only one thing to make the harp play better, make it airtight because without that, you will be fighting an uphill battle.
"If I have taking this up correctly you seem to be shaping the reed at rest to approximate the shape it will take up when in action."
No. Not at all. I don't care about the shape at rest. It's natural for a reed to be curved at rest. I care about the gap at rest and that will affect how I shape the reed from the very beginning. That's one reason why you need to know who you are making the harp for months before you actually deliver the harp. But don't let that confuse the issue here. Two different ideas. The thing that affects what shape the reed is at rest is what shape it is when it goes through the slot.
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isaacullah
2529 posts
Oct 08, 2013
7:34 AM
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"The goal of profiling the reed is to make it create the most amount of sound with the least amount of breath force."
I agree. I'll go further and say that that's the main point of all "optimization" techniques. Profiling achieves this by ensuring that the reed is "chopping" the airstream in the most efficient way possible, and thereby creating the strongest and most stable sound.
There are, however, some secondary benefits from profiling:
1) It ensures that as much of the reed as possible is involved in its action. This not only means that the reed is more efficient in regards to breath force, it also may 1a) increase the life of the reed (longer swings), 1b) help you keep notes in tune (ie. if the reed was "curved" wrong, only part of it would vibrate, changing the pitch a bit. especially if the reed base dips into the reed slot), 1c) helps you maintain a more consistent and pleasing tone.
2) It creates consistent response from all your reeds. This is assuming you've profiled all of them. This helps by making the reed response consistent up and down the harp so you don't have to change your attack for every reed. This minimizes the chances of a reed "sticking" because you didn't change your attack.
3) Profiling helps enable and facilitate bending and (especially) overbending. It can help keep the reeds stable during these techniques, which may minimize "reed squeal".
@nacoran and STME: Although there is some evidence that increasing the thickness of the reedplate (either by doubling or manual coining) results in increased volume, there other lines of evidence that suggest it does so at the expense of reed longevity and sensitivity to fine technique. An opposing school of thought that I have been exposed to would suggest that one ought to do the opposite. That is, that one ought to minimize the thickness of the reedplate so that the point where the reed crosses the plane of the reedplate is as thin as possible. This can be achieved with handtools by "embossing" both the top and bottom of the reedslot in such a way that the edges of the reedplate are bevelled like a knife blade. I have tried it both ways, and IMO, the second sounded better to my ears. It's too much a pain in the ass for me to do, however, so I don't bother with any of that stuff.
@STME: I'm really enjoying the data you are generating. IMO, this is definitely the way we all improve and move forward.
@sonny3 and greyowl: I'm glad you found my post helpful!!!
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 08, 2013 7:36 AM
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Frank
2952 posts
Oct 08, 2013
8:47 AM
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My experience is...If a note is not co-operating according to my playing style.
I'll adjust gaps if necessary - checking both blow and draw reeds.
If gapping sufficiently gives me the playability I'm after or happy with - I'll leave it at that.
If still not happy with the performance of the harp... I'll Profile the reeds, re-gap and shuffle on down the road a happy camper :)
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isaacullah
2531 posts
Oct 08, 2013
9:09 AM
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@Frank: You've just described my process to the T! :) I know that "more" can be done, but I don't have time for it these days. I just do the minimum I need to do to get the thing playing....
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Frank
2953 posts
Oct 08, 2013
9:37 AM
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I hear you Isaac - I'll have much more time in the winter, but still for what and how I play - those adjustments are very satisfying and produce a pretty darn good responding harp :)
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harpwrench
696 posts
Oct 08, 2013
9:49 AM
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I disagree with several things that have been posted as seemingly matter-of-fact in this thread. The longer you do reedwork, the more complicated or elegant it can get. But the basic idea is a simple and direct way to make your harp play well, or even great, especially if it's not embossed.
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Last Edited by harpwrench on Oct 08, 2013 10:01 AM
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STME58
552 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:26 AM
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@iaacullah,
If I understood @nacoran correctly, the purpose of raising ridges along the reed plate opening is not to thicken the reed plate but to match the shape of the reed as it enters. This would be a reed plate based approach to doing the same thing that reed profiling does. If the reed is shaped to be curved at rest in a way that causes it to enter the reed plate flat, the two match and the airflow is cut to nearly zero as the reed swings through the plate, maximizing the amplitude of the pressure (sound) wave. If the reed starts out flat and enters the reed plate curved, but the reed plate is curved to match, the same effect is achieved.
From a manufacturing or customizing standpoint, I expect that shaping the reed is the easier pf the two processes. I always like to explore other ways of doing things, even if only in thought, because it can lead to a deeper understanding of how things work.
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chromaticblues
1476 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:30 AM
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Mr. Harpwrench is absolutly correct.
I don't understand where people are getting Richard Sliegh says the whole reed has to go through the slot at the same time?
I know for a fact that isn't true! He may have misspoke on some video he did for you tube? I don't know, but I do know he doesn't think that and I know that is not how it's done!
This is not a secret! Dig deeper grass hopper!
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Frank
2954 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:30 AM
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I am in no way suggesting that the tweaks I do... (Profile, gap, tune) are going to produce a Spiers or a Filisko.
Most all players...will have to pay cash to those guys accounts for those types of results :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 08, 2013 10:33 AM
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nacoran
7210 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:37 AM
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Isaac, boy do I have the reedplate for you then! (Digs in drawer- Piedmont!) Of course, it's got 20 terrible reeds on it! Your theory could also work with embossing, since that also things the metal a bit. I get weird ideas that I don't have the tools to test, but I've wondered about a 'plateless' design, where the reeds are mounted to a metal comb. To create an approximation of the shape of the reed slot and the hole you'd drill a hole in the front of the harp that just barely exceeded the width of the comb so that the top edge of the circle, created the reed slot. (Again, it would be way easier with 3D printing since you could leave more material by the lips. It could, at very high tolerances, give you an almost razor like slot tolerance since it would be getting thinner the closer to the slot it got. No idea what a round sounding chamber would do to the thing though (that part would be easier to test, since it wouldn't need to be to such tight tolerances if you were still using a reed plate on top of it.)
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Last Edited by nacoran on Oct 09, 2013 1:50 PM
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chromaticblues
1477 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:38 AM
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@greyowl
Richard Sliegh has a book for sale on how to work on your own harps. It is not expensive and it covers your question. I don't think it is meant to teach anyone how to become a customizer, but it is informative for people with questions like yourself.
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HarpNinja
3518 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:39 AM
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@Chromaticblues
Watch the video available for purchase here: http://www.rockinronsmusic4less.com/content/harps/accessories/sleighhotrod.php
Then, please reread my post carefully and note that it hasn't been edited. It is not my responsibility to elaborate for those not wanting to search out the video, and I only brought it up because the vids are worth checking out in general.
***Edit: My OP wasn't meant to be a full explanation of the strategy and how it is measured, which Mr. Sleigh shares in the vids. Sorry if that is confusing people.
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Last Edited by HarpNinja on Oct 08, 2013 10:42 AM
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Grey Owl
359 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:52 AM
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Thanks for the replies chromatic blues & harpninja and all.
I am definitely interested in pursuing this matter further and if you believe the Sleigh materials will put me on the right road in a practical sense then I will check them out. My concern was that I would pay out good money only to be presented with a broad sweep of the subject and not enough specific detail.
When I posed the question I was hopeful that those who responded would be able to point me in the right direction as is the case with many questions posted on the Forum. I now understand this subject and the techniques involved are a lot more involved than I first thought.
I was approaching this as similar to a question on gapping where I was able with the help of description and youtube videos able to make a lot of my poorer harps significantly more playable.
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Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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tookatooka
3540 posts
Oct 08, 2013
11:05 AM
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Pity we can't see/hear a comparison between a profiled and non-profiled harp.
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chromaticblues
1478 posts
Oct 08, 2013
11:29 AM
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@ HarpNinja
There most certainly is some confusion!
There was a statement that you and arzajac made that is simply incorrect! I don't have to reread anything.
I only point this out because some of you are giving out bad advice. If your not going to give the full explanation than why give information that will counterproductive?
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HarpNinja
3519 posts
Oct 08, 2013
12:10 PM
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No, you do need to reread because you totally misquoted me.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
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HarpNinja
3520 posts
Oct 08, 2013
12:17 PM
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The information isn't counterproductive. In fact, I pointed directly to a primary source that happens to be one of the most celebrated customizers in the world. OP asked for resources and I pointed one out.
Richard created those videos to sell to people. It is not my place to share what I paid for just because others are curious. However, I did share a product that I thought would be valuable to others. I make no money off those videos - I am not even friends with Sleigh.
Again, I didn't say the whole reed has to go through the slot at the same time.
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Kingley
3179 posts
Oct 08, 2013
12:32 PM
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Grey Owl - I don't claim to be a good customiser but I do work on my own harps. Here's what I do to make mine play better. I flat sand the combs, gap the reeds to my preference and arc (profile) the reeds and lightly emboss them. I usually set the gap about the same thickness as the reed from the plate. I arc or profile them to be as straight as I can get them, then I put a very small curve on about the last third of the reed. Using these steps I've found that this makes my harps play extremely well, it makes them very responsive and makes all the bends very easy to obtain and sustain.
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MP
2958 posts
Oct 08, 2013
12:49 PM
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From Tooka,
"Pity we can't see/hear a comparison between a profiled and non-profiled harp."
well in a competent players hands they sound pretty much the same Took- provided no sizing/burnishing was done.
reed response is faster (if the reed was slow to begin with) and sometimes the volume increases quite a bit.
not always, sometimes a reed is buggin loud already.
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MP
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Last Edited by MP on Oct 08, 2013 12:54 PM
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arzajac
1169 posts
Oct 08, 2013
1:52 PM
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I also dissagree with some stuff posted here, notably profiling for bends. Both reeds need to be adjusted for bends and overbends to work, but it's not a matter of giving each reed a different shape. If you need to change the shape of a reed to be able to hit a semitone bend, it's because the shape wasn't optimal to begin with.
Chromaticblues: There's no point in arguing - it's not likely to be a productive conversation. But there are many ways to look at reeds (I mean litterally .i.e. angle). Maybe the way you look at them is different than mine. Maybe if you took a look at my reeds, you would say they are straight at rest and vice versa, I would say your's are curved at rest. I don't know....
HarpNinja: I just want to touch on something you mentioned; I have given lots of detail about profiling reeds because that's all stuff I either learned myself, or was taught by someone without any non-disclosure restrictions. I would never plargarize someone else's work.
In fact, everything about properly working on harps is available for free (even on MBH!). The trouble is that you get a really big load of conflicting information at the same time. It can take a lot of time and effort to weed out the misinformation and find what really works.
And that's an important point here. If you want to learn how to profile reeds, figure out how to assess your work. Trial and error. If you bust a reed (or many) in the process, just replace them. If you stumble upon something that makes a harp play so well the hair on the back of your neck stands up, you probably are on the right track.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 08, 2013 1:53 PM
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arzajac
1170 posts
Oct 08, 2013
1:55 PM
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"Pity we can't see/hear a comparison between a profiled and non-profiled harp."
It's a pity you can't play two identical harps with the only difference being the reed profiles. *That* would be a learning experience no matter what your level of expertise.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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tookatooka
3542 posts
Oct 08, 2013
2:17 PM
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Yeah! This is bonkers. One school of thought is straight reeds yet another is arced reeds. Maybe they are both valid? All my reeds look fairly straight OOTB, at least not curved enough to notice. How do you measure the straightness of a reed anyway?
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smwoerner
223 posts
Oct 08, 2013
2:19 PM
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No two reed/slot/hole set up is going to be exactly the same. There are just too many variables. This is the reason you have to work with both reeds in a hole at the same time.
This is my bit of hard learned advice...
Don’t try to shape and gap a reed to play a certain way. Play a hole and then adjust the reeds’ shape and gap until the hole plays the way you want it to play.
Like Andrew said earlier, if you do this enough you just begin to feel how the reeds needs to be shaped and gapped.
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arzajac
1171 posts
Oct 08, 2013
3:08 PM
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"How do you measure the straightness of a reed anyway?"
Sjoeberg shows you one way here. Free!
See 4:36 into this video.
(That reed is not perfectly straight, by the way... Just a great example of a pretty objective way to check.)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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nacoran
7214 posts
Oct 08, 2013
9:40 PM
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Arzajac, we just need to get you one of these to play the two sets of harps to take out the human factor!
I know it's been posted before, and I've seen it a bunch of times, but that still gives me the creeps.
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Nate
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Kingley
3180 posts
Oct 08, 2013
10:26 PM
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"Don’t try to shape and gap a reed to play a certain way. Play a hole and then adjust the reeds’ shape and gap until the hole plays the way you want it to play."
That's what I do. I use that method when doing any step of the work I do on my harps. The only other thing I'd add to that is to always work on reeds in pairs. By that I mean the blow reed and it's corresponding draw reed. As one affects the other when it comes to performance (or at least that's what I've been led to believe).
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 08, 2013 10:28 PM
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nacoran
7216 posts
Oct 09, 2013
2:04 PM
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STME58, sorry, I missed your post. Yeah, that's what I was thinking, although I was also thinking maybe that was what thicker reed plates did as well- create a moment when the reed is entirely parallel (whether it is bent or not) to the reed slot, giving you the best seal. That would make sense with the straight reed technique as well, since a curved reed, sized for a specific slot, would have some extra air escaping at the end of the reed, since it would have to be, in it's bent shape, shorter than a straight reed sized for the same slot (unless you deliberately put a reed in a slot that would, when it was straightened, hit the end of the slot.
I've also wondered, from the comb end, about extending the comb down in an arc, to create a better seal longer, but thinking about it, once it clears on the sides, the seal is broken anyway. What keeps getting me wondering is what is going on in that space in the middle and at the ends, where the reeds don't swing. If you think of a side profile of a reed chamber, there is an arc at the tip of a reed where a blow reed, as it swings, it gets farther and farther away from the back of the comb. There is also a space in the middle (where the sprues are on a ABS comb) where neither reed swings. What if that sprue was shaped to do something (I don't know what) to the air? Could a long flat diagonal or arced sprue create two separate chambers? (The big knock I've heard on the discreet comb is that it feels to thick in your mouth. If the divider was slanted, or arced to follow the shape of the reed, could you make one thin enough for people to embrace?
It's one thing to know that doing X leads to Y, but I want to know why! (I guess that's what I get for having a dad who was a physics teacher!) :)
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Nate
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tookatooka
3545 posts
Oct 09, 2013
2:13 PM
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Yeah! Nacoran, I've wondered about the consequences of having an airfoil shape on the sprues and whether that would give any advantage. The airfoil would cause air passing over it to raise the pressure thereby doing something to the way the reed performs, but I don't know what.
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isaacullah
2535 posts
Oct 09, 2013
2:46 PM
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@STME and Nacoran: Ah! Talking about two different things then. On a related note, however, I've often wondered what the effect would be if you sanded down the reedplate in such a way that it was wedge-shaped in profile. By that, I mean that it would be thinner in thickness near the rivet pads, and thicker in profile near the end of the reedslots. Just thinking about the dynamics of a vibrating reed (the strobe videos above really show them well) and all this theory about trying to chop the air and keep the pressure as it goes through the slot... I wonder if having a wedge shaped reedplate profile would give you the best of all worlds? It woulnd't be THAT hard to do, but I don't want to risk ruining one of my harps to find out! :)
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