HarpNinja
3465 posts
Sep 23, 2013
8:31 AM
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I started on SP20's, then moved to Golden Melody harmonicas, and then Marine Bands to then move to the Crossover.
My conclusion is, when modified, the Special 20 is my favorite harp. The pros for me are the coverplates and overall height. This creates an easy to play harp with a great tone.
The cons are the fact that the comb can't be checked for flatness, and aftermarket combs are recessed...well some are, but would again be hard to check for actual flatness.
I generally open the covers, replace the cover screws, and polish the comb. They look awesome and the current lots from Hohner play amazingly well out of the box. You can then modify them like crazy and still end with a warm and focused tone.
I think the cut at rasp of the XO is a bit much for me. They play amazingly well OOTB, but are raspy relative to the MB.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
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Frank
2799 posts
Sep 23, 2013
8:37 AM
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I 2nd the motion - 20's can get the job done very effectively and are a pleasure to play :)
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Stevelegh
844 posts
Sep 23, 2013
8:43 AM
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Mike,
Do Hohner give you samples to try / approve when they bring out new models or upgrade existing ones?
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Grey Owl
312 posts
Sep 23, 2013
8:54 AM
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I 3rd the motion:) They are a lovely harp to play, very comfortable and easy to clean as well with the plastic comb. I too open up the cover plates. I find them a little warmer than the MB (not so raspy) but they still have bite.
One of my favourite harps is my Sp20 in Bb, it just plays so good.
I think I saw on the forum some time ago(maybe Joe Spiers) placing thin lengths of plastic cord in the comb recesses I assume to act as a kind of gasket to improve air tightness. Anyone tried this?
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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HarpNinja
3466 posts
Sep 23, 2013
9:32 AM
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I haven't received any, but they do do that at times. Since I've been an endorser, they haven't come out with anything new-new.
I did get samples of the MB's with sealed combs when those came out, but had called and asked about it. Same with the MB Deluxe.
@Grey Owl
I know of someone who created an actual gasket that was designed for the SP20 comb, but it has yet to hit the market. I am not sure if it will. I haven't had too many issues with them feeling leaky, moreso than I know I can measure flatness of other things.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Lmbrjak
191 posts
Sep 23, 2013
9:46 AM
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I believe it was Arzajac that filled the comb recesses on sp20.
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arzajac
1146 posts
Sep 23, 2013
10:14 AM
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Lmbrjak - I did that on Big River harps. I never got any improvement from a SP20 comb which is already a 9 out of 10 on the airtightness scale. My conclusion about stuffing material such as Blu-Tak into the grooves of a Big River harp is that it isn't worth the time and effort.
The SP20 comb can be made more airtight if needed. Just take the coverplates off and block the slots with your fingers and puff air in and out to see how airtight it is. Only very rarely do you need to address airleaks from the comb - assuming the the draw plate is flat-sanded and the screws are on at the appropriate torque.
Mike, do you tune your SP20s to a compromise that is closer to ET like the XO? I know that was your preference a while back.
I agree that SP20s are great harps. They are comfortable to play and you can find them anywhere. They customize well, they restore well, they last forever. The same harp can be kicked around in your glove compartment or be a high-end custom; it can do it all... Lots of potential.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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HarpNinja
3468 posts
Sep 23, 2013
10:18 AM
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I tune them closer to ET. I like the MS tuning to some extent too...I add two extra screws with appropriate tension, so the harp is pretty snug, I guess.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Grey Owl
314 posts
Sep 23, 2013
10:31 AM
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Blimey that took a long time to find on the forum search!
This was a Christmas gift tip by Harpwrench (Joe Spiers)
The photo has now been removed from the post. Here is the LINK to the post anyway for anyone who's interested in the discussion.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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Frank
2802 posts
Sep 23, 2013
10:38 AM
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These "TurboLiners" do the trick...He may sell them separately? AntakaMatics
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 23, 2013 10:40 AM
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groyster1
2400 posts
Sep 23, 2013
11:17 AM
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I own a stage 1 joe spiers sp20...it is my best playing harp....special 20s should be called old reliable
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9000
172 posts
Sep 23, 2013
11:29 AM
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What size screws are needed to add fill the additional holes on a Special 20? Best place to purchase?
Thanks,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
Last Edited by 9000 on Sep 23, 2013 11:34 AM
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9000
173 posts
Sep 23, 2013
11:32 AM
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Arzajac said: "Only very rarely do you need to address airleaks from the comb - assuming the the draw plate is flat-sanded and the screws are on at the appropriate torque."
Excuse my ignorance if I've missed something here but I thought that the goal of flat sanding was primarily to reduce the interaction of the rivets with the comb. Do the rivets actually touch the comb of the S20?
I really appreciate the willingness to share such info here. I know that I'm playing better harps as a result. Wish I could afford to be a better customer to all of you customizers!
All the best,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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HarpNinja
3470 posts
Sep 23, 2013
11:58 AM
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Frank,
The TurboLiner doesn't act as a gasket. It looks like it *might* work like embossing the reed slot.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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arzajac
1147 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:03 PM
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9000: M2 screws. You can get them on Ebay.
And the rivet heads are only part of the problem. It's pretty obvious when you flatsand an old reed plate that some spots become shiny after a few passes while others stay dark. Those dark spots are low spots - areas where the brass reed plate is not touching the comb.
If you continue to flatsand until they are gone, you will have gotten rid of the leaks.
Sure, maybe 30 per cent of new out-of-the-box harps will have pretty flat reed plates and they will be pretty much uniformly shiny after a few seconds of flatsanding. But most reedplates need a little more work to get there. And the result is a noticeably more airtight harp.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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FreeWilly
333 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:04 PM
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Great harps. Used to 'play' them. Now I find them a bit too dull. Plus I liked the idea of custom combs. Cumbersome to do on a sp20.
I now use them as back-ups and as harps to hold in my pocket/play after eating without brushing teeth, that kinda stuff. What strikes me every time is the nice tuning and the lovely, civilized growl on 34 double stops! The lower volume is great for practicing with people around.
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Frank
2804 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:04 PM
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Correct Mike - my understanding is it helps eliminate space like embossing does.
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tookatooka
3506 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:06 PM
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If the Sp20 was a German car I'd say it was like a good old reliable VW Beetle. I don't know what I'd do if they ever stopped making them. I used to be Suzuki but now I'm Sp20 through and through.
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HarpNinja
3471 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:11 PM
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9000 - I just use extra Sp20 screws, or I have some smaller brass screws I use with nuts. For a customer, I just use extra SP20, though.
Regarding flat sanding - the objective is for air tight mating surfaces. Stock, both the reed plates and comb are not milled totally flat. That is VERY hard to do.
Aftermarket guys - comb makers and/or customizers, get to closer standards of flat. However, you can't just mill a comb flat (generally). In fact, if you don't check the combs well, they will be just as warped off the CNC as from the big guys.
Lets say you have the comb totally flat - like measured and everything (a plastic recessed comb isn't flat, but there is some give in the comb and it isn't THAT bad). If you put an unflat reedplate on it, you still have leaks.
You can flat sand the draw plate simple enough. Not only does it eliminate the uneveness of the rivets, which aren't causing leaks because they touch the comb, but it sands any uneven spots from the rest of the plate - simple enough.
To replicate this on the blow side, though, is harder as you can't just flat sand. That is where a gasket, even on a sandwhich style harp might be helpful.
Traditional options have included anything from wax to removing all the reeds to flat sand. I've tried many, many ways to do this quickly, but haven't found one. I have a couple of theories, but they require precision tools that I can't access, or don't exist.
It is easy to warp the reedplate, but very difficult to measure how flat they are.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Sep 23, 2013 12:11 PM
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isaacullah
2509 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:17 PM
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The more I play, the more I find I love the sound of a special 20. Even more than the Marine Band (my first love). I think it's mostly the non-vented coverplates, but the tone is just more focused, more concentrated, and very smooth. The bright, brassy tone of a Marine Band is great, but as I progress, I'm more and more attracted to the tone of the Spec. 20 (or other non-vented harps, like a Seydel Solist Pro).
FYI, I've put aftermarket combs intended for Marine Band (or other non-recessed harp) on a couple of my spec 20's. They work great, but you have to take care when screwing on the coverplates to set them just right, as there's no "groove" for them to set into. I've even used MS Blues Harp combs with a spec 20. Matter of fact, that's one of my favorite harps! :)
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HarpNinja
3472 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:35 PM
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I have put SP20 covers on MB's several times. I know this is the preferred style for several including Howard Levy. That being said, I just don't like them as much that way.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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HawkeyeKane
2023 posts
Sep 23, 2013
12:42 PM
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I love my SP20's too. They're the the main proponent of my arsenal. I have one in C with an aluminum comb by Chris Reynolds. Gives it a slightly brighter tone that I like to use on acoustic things. Got an MS sized aluminum comb from Chris as well. I love slapping a set of reedplates and a set of Big River covers on it and wailing out with that!
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Hawkeye Kane
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FreeWilly
337 posts
Sep 23, 2013
2:06 PM
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A/B between sp20 and custom combed GM: GM noticeably louder. Corian. Not even aluminum (which I only use on A< harps). The tuning makes the chords sound bigger, but it's not louder at all. I had never noticed that difference all that much, but it seems to be there now!
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SmokeJS
158 posts
Sep 23, 2013
2:24 PM
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A couple of short followup questions based on the excellent information proviided above.
1) Are replacement cover screws available that get rid of the tiny screw and nut system?
2) How is a a Sp20 comb polished? Benefits?
3) What is the proper torque for reed plate screws and how can it be measured?
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Frank
2805 posts
Sep 23, 2013
2:28 PM
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3) What is the proper torque for reed plate screws and how can it be measured?
Js...you may need to cough up some money for that trade secret:)
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MP
2925 posts
Sep 23, 2013
5:25 PM
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well, to me, proper torque is almost no torque at all.
i like the cover plate screw system but most any hardware or hobby shop will have something you'll like to replace the existing screws and nuts.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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harpwrench
683 posts
Sep 23, 2013
5:30 PM
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2) Very carefully or you'll end up with sharp edges in the holes, there's not much radius there to start with. Probably not a problem unless you TB.
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The best you know is usually only as good as the best you've had.
Spiers Custom Harmonicas
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Barley Nectar
55 posts
Sep 23, 2013
6:04 PM
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OK, I'm new to all this tweeking. Have adjusted gap but that's about it. How do you flat sand? What is the base? Plate glass? What type of paper and what grit? How do you get even presser across comb or read plate without screwing up the reads or comb? I used LO's for years and just replaced the read plates. I have many old plates. Thanks...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Sep 23, 2013 6:05 PM
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arzajac
1148 posts
Sep 23, 2013
6:50 PM
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Barley Nectar: I made a PDF that you can download which describes the process in detail: "Preparing a reedplate for use with a flat comb."
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Sep 23, 2013 6:51 PM
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HarpNinja
3475 posts
Sep 23, 2013
7:34 PM
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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JInx
548 posts
Sep 23, 2013
8:19 PM
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ah ha! ok, i've been over tightening them. THANKS!
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HarpNinja
3476 posts
Sep 24, 2013
6:41 AM
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Regarding cover screws, you can use anything that fits, lol. I had sweet ones from Hetrick that are hard to come by now, so I generally use M12 screws.
For sake of ease, I generally try to keep all screws either phillips or flat head. Sometimes SP20's are the exception, though. I keep the stock screws which are phillips and use sloted cover screws. Will snap some pics.
I finished a C this weekend and don't want to part with it, lol. I don't have time to tweak for myself right now, but it is always on my mind, lol.
I will concede that while I can cleanly open covers, I probably do it the slow way. Need to figure a faster system.
The only benefits to polishing the combs are the appearance and smoother edges.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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HarveyHarp
510 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:10 PM
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If you are going to work on Harmonicas buy yourself some Pozidrive Screwdrivers. You need at PZ1 and a PZ0. That should cover hohner, and Seydel for the most part. Phillips and Pozidrive are different. Phillips screwdrivers will eventually strip Pozidrive Screws.
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HarveyHarp
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Kingley
3163 posts
Sep 24, 2013
10:24 PM
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"I will concede that while I can cleanly open covers, I probably do it the slow way. Need to figure a faster system."
Maybe try using a small vice. Just cover the teeth with something to protect the cover plates. I use one on 1896 covers and find it gives a far superior (professional looking) result to any other method i've tried. Plus of course it's very quick to do.
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HarpNinja
3480 posts
Sep 25, 2013
8:04 AM
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That's a good idea. I find the general shape of the cover to be the issue as I try to preserve the angles, whereas a MB is usually a straight shot.
I've messed with this a lot and totally cop to the fact that I am slow at it. I've found the easiest so far is to flatten the ridge between the angles with one tool and then use a different to try and follow the smaller sections.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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9000
174 posts
Sep 27, 2013
11:51 AM
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I really appreciated this thread. I've tried lots of different brands but I tend to come back to the S20. I've got a couple that are from very recent product. They are airtight and play great with very little tweaking. Now that you guys have educated me to understand that there is value to flat sanding even with the plastic comb I'll be trying that. BTW my experience with Manjis is somewhat limited [I think I have 4]but I found that flat sanding both the draw plate and the comb changes everything. I love the tone and playability. However, when we start talking about out of the box, little tweaking and bang for the buck the S20 would certainly get my vote...If there's every a time when only one harp is available I hope it's the lowly S20.
All the best,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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KDT
14 posts
Sep 28, 2013
4:26 AM
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Lots of praise here for the SP20, and all of it well deserved. As a raw beginner 1.5 years ago I tried MBs and LOs, but when I got my first SP20, things seemed to come a little bit easier. However, in the past few months I have become a bit frustrated with them. I jam with a bunch of guys once a week and I started to notice that the 6 blow sounds flat. 2 draw and 3 blow are fine, but 6 blow has really started to sound flat to me. I wondered if it was just in the keys that I use a lot, but after a bit of experimentation, I've come to the conclusion that all 7 SP20s I own have a 6 blow thats flatter than I'd like. the 3/6 blow sounds quite bad on all of them. To my ear it sounds like the 6 blow is the culprit. When I contrast this with my only Session Steel, which I've only had for a couple of weeks, the 3/6 blow sounds great. Don't get me wrong, the SP20 would be the harp I would recommend to a beginner, but I still have higher expectations for an OOTB harp.
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MP
2934 posts
Sep 28, 2013
1:09 PM
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What Harvey said. Pozi drive screwdrivers work great on Phillips screws but Phillips screwdrivers are no good for Pozi drive screws.
I love my Seydel Pozi driver. It's made by Wiha. I;ve never seen finer screwdrivers.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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MP
2935 posts
Sep 28, 2013
1:15 PM
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KDT,
I suspect you really like the 6 draw bend. the note that sounds is the 6 blow. a lot of use will flatten it.
(over blowing will do the trick too)
6 blow should match 3 blow. you should get a perfect octave with 3 and 6.
both reeds are just a hair sharp of 442.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Sep 28, 2013 1:17 PM
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MP
2936 posts
Sep 28, 2013
1:21 PM
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Just sold a C Special 20 I tweaked. Got sellers remorse. I wish that i'd kept it because I don't have any Special 20s in C unless I build one.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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groyster1
2407 posts
Sep 28, 2013
1:25 PM
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the screwdriver I have I got from home depot....it has 3 different size bits for flat and 3 for Phillips....I know to not overtorque only tighten to "snug"
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HarveyHarp
511 posts
Sep 29, 2013
10:19 AM
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I get my Wiha Pozidrives from McMaster Carr, amongst other things like nuts and bolds. Prices are good and Inventory is huge.
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HarveyHarp
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KDT
15 posts
Sep 29, 2013
7:46 PM
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MP, Thanks for the info. You may be right about the 6 draw bend, but to my ear the 3/6 blow beats significantly on the SP20 in the key of B that I just got. If I am the only person that a problem with the 6 blow, it must be something I am doing.
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