I have just been involved in a small discussion with Walter in Jodan’s Harp rack blues thread but rather than depart the topic of his original post I thought it would be best to start a separate thread.
I bought the question of natural talent came up and I was wondering how folk feel about this. We know that there is no substitute for hard graft and clearly someone like Alex Paclin say, has put in an immense amount of harp work to be as good as he is, but his progress in around 2 + years of playing has been extraordinary. Folk could practice for a lifetime and not match his playing ability.
So how did you take to the harp initially? i.e Do you or did you feel you had the leg-up of natural ability with this instrument from the start or has it been an ongoing struggle? What ability/factor has made your progress faster?
It would be interesting to learn how much practice time everyone puts in (both experienced and newer players.)
I know there are a few questions here but chip in anywhere you like with your take.
i was inspired from an early age but did not begin to even pursue harmonica until 12 or 13 years after my initial inspiration. once i had begun it was honestly decades before i made any real progress. i am the first to tell you, my stubbornness has been my saving grace. beginning to try to play like my heroes at age 16 or 17, it was in my 30's when i actually began to learn past the few riffs i had gotten by on initially. and it was my late 40's when i really learned enough to emulate george smith, james cotton, carey bell, junior wells, and others who drove me over the years. i have seldom had a lesson. i have seldom learned anything in a linear fashion the way it was laid out. repetition and trial and error have been my saviors. a sense of timing has been my only real asset musically, and from that and listening for hours days and months honing a feel for the I-IV-V. and possibly most of all has been a true love and gut feeling for the bent note and the expression to be found with a harp.
check out the thread "last weekend in little rock, jukin'" i have up right now. it has several videos on it which represent a lot of where i'm at musically after nearly 40 years. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2012 4:11 PM
Had a look at the old thread. Crikey! I believe practice can compensate for a lack of talent to an extent, but if there is 0 talent there is little point. Whatever the field, some people just don't get it. I think some people's brains just aren't wired to learn language for example, despite being intelligent and otherwise normal. To answer your question, two years ago I decided I would get serious about this instrument after decades of having a little ability and playing only a couple of times a year. Have been playing on average about five hours a day since then: noodling, exercises, learning songs and playing with my band and jam partners, for my teacher, at open mics, busking by myself and with guitarists, sitting in with a blue grass band, and playing at poetry slams and traffic jams. My brain isn't as plastic as it used to be, but I can hear my progress compared to old recordings I made two years, a year, six months ago. Aim is to make enjoyable music, not to catch up to any one particular player, but learn from others. I believe I am able to learn new material faster now (ear has improved?) than a year or so ago. My two cents worth...
Greyowl, I often ponder on the points raised. I certainly think some folks are gifted with a natural talent. I struggle with the technicalities of the instrument but have been plodding away for many years. I started as a pre teen but was unable to play for over 50 years due to a nickel allergy (all old harps had loads of nickel in them). Since retirement I discovered that most newer harps contain less or no nickel. I'm now in my 70's so progress(if any) is slow. But I love it.
My only real gift is that I play & learn by ear. I sometimes reference tabs but rarely use them. Certainly if I know the lyrics to a tune and can sing it in my head, then I find a way to play it. Often it involves noodling on different harps and even using alt tunings to extract the tune from my head and out through the harp. My hearing is at times 'selective' ie if it sounds ok it is ok! My only use of tabs as a starting point was with some of the Harmonica Academy Irish Fiddle & Bluegrass tunes most which did not have lyrics & many were very similar.
I think playing /learning by ear is advantageous in being able to recall the tune quickly plus in making a mistake to be able to improvise a way back in. I find that the fiddle tunes are hard to recall & I need the first 4 or 5 tabs or even listen to the tune in order to get a start. Plus if I lose my way I often need to go back to the start.
I know of other players far better than I who simply cannot play /learn by ear.
Since coming back to the harp ca 6 years ago my slow progress has taken the following course:- -1 year Dave Gage with harmonicalessons.com online course. -numerous videos & CD's claiming to make me a blues player in a day! -Adams site and instructional videos (DVD -Blues Harmonica Secrets) -One day seminars of little or no value. -Harmonica Academy with Tony Eyers (last 3 years) -A couple of skype lessons with Ben Bouman -numerous books & ones I consider as good are The Harp Handbook by Steve Baker & Harmonica for Dummies by Winslow Yerxa.
My current practice is just playing & learning of new tunes ca 30min a day. But I always have a harp on me and should I hear a new but familiar tune I see if I can play it. I play fortnightly with a Bluegrass Jam & am the only harp player amongst a total of 20 to 30 players of Banjo's, Mandolins, Guitars, Dobros, Double Bass & Fiddle. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
Tuckster, I think that was the thread that got religion tossed off the forum! Wow.
Okay, let's hope calmer heads can prevail.
I think being good at something comes in three parts.
For what it's worth I'm a big believer in talent. I'll separate out a couple varieties. Some is genetic. In the old thread there was an argument that there wasn't any genetic component. If you look at 7 ft. tall basketball players I think you can throw that argument out. When I was a kid in band the low brass section had our practices together. It was me on baritone and three trombone players. Two of us were much better from the very start. We had these practice charts we had to fill out to show how much we practiced that week. The other three kids all did their practice. The one kid who had talent kept getting better and better. I didn't practice much but I was still able to easily stay just ahead of the two other kids who just weren't very musical to start off with. Talent helped, but the kid with talent and practice did the best.
I have a friend who started life with severe ear problems. He was virtually deaf for the first few years of his life. His hearing eventually got better but he missed some crucial developmental windows. He is a terrible singer. Can't come close to staying in key. That's what I'd consider the second part. It's a mix of nature and nurture. There are things we learn passively, or at least without that being the main focus of what we are trying to learn. Most kids learn some sense of rhythm and pitch just by being exposed to music. If you miss that developmental window it doesn't mean you can't learn it, but it's likely to make things much more difficult. His sister is very talented musically.
That friend with no sense of pitch ended up being our bands bass player for a while. He'd been playing for a couple years before I picked up the harp. Within a couple months of picking up the harp I could pick out tons of simple melodies like 'London Bridge is Falling Down' on the first try. He still couldn't remember bass lines he'd played dozens of times before. He still couldn't see them as musical patterns.
When I picked up the harp I had a bit of genetic talent, a bit of basic knowledge about music, and enough interest to practice. What I probably lack the most is discipline. I have a really hard time sitting down and doing what Mal described in the old thread as 'deliberate practice'. When I pick up the harmonica it's usually because I want, at that very moment in time, to pick up the harmonica. I know if I picked it up and practiced it more deliberately I'd get better faster. I chose not to for a whole bunch of reasons that are probably part nature and part nurture themselves.
I personally think that that second part is what a lot of people ignore. There isn't much that can be done about your genetic lot in life. (Although if you expand it to a broader biological sense you have everything from steroids to drugs for ADD. I've heard some classical music performers dope themselves with heart medication that makes their hands more steady. Tons of Olympic athletes 'suffer' from asthma, in fact many more than in the general population. It doesn't hurt that anti-asthma drugs are one of the few categories of performance enhancing drugs that they are allowed to take!)
Lot's of people practice, but I think one of the shortcomings of how we educate people is we don't spend enough time on that second part, giving them a framework to understand new things, whether it's early education or just sort of liberal arts sorts of stuff later in life. You don't have to know the names of all the shades of white in a paint store to be a great painter, but it probably will help. You don't have to know about the history of the harmonica to play harmonica, but it's surprises how often it is useful. You know a little bit of a sound someone made 50 years ago. You may not have even liked how they made that sound, but you may suddenly think to yourself one day, hey, that would go perfect in the new piece I'm playing. That's not talent, it's knowledge, but sometimes it's from so far back in your early development that someone starting from scratch today as an adult trying to learn it would seem like they had no talent. It's very hard to practice to learn that sort of thing. (When I first learned music theory I didn't really get it. It wasn't until years later that I revisited it that it started to sink in. Just enough of that knowledge I'd gained the first time around had sunk in and become part of how I understood things instead of just unrelated facts I was trying to keep in my head that all of the sudden I understood stuff that had stumped me when I was actually studying back in school.)
I've known a few prodigies. You know, like the kid who plays Carnegie Hall in Jr. High. But even natural talent must be nurtured. I saw an interview with Vladamir Horowitz when he was past 80. He was considered one of the greatest pianist in the 20th century. The interviewer asked him if he still practiced everyday. He said no, now that he was over 80 he decided he probably knew all he was ever going to learn.
Good question though. I know players who have played a long time, but don't still feel the music. My brother was that way. Took private lessons from a symphony orchestra member (violin) and progressed quickly. But he couldn't play without the sheet music in front of him. When the lessons stopped, so did the playing, he just isn't "musical". My mom, on the other hand, never had a lesson, but she was such a good singer with incredible range that she was courted by Big Band Leaders, Opera agents and musical theatre.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2012 8:03 PM
If you stand,sit or run in front of me I can draw you a portrait in a few minutes that'll have you and your friends going "Wow"Used to do it as a party trick and on big site jobs etc.I'd swop a picture for a few beers or whatever sometimes. But and its a big but,i don't consider myself an 'Artist'.Just don't have the imagination and or that creative thing. Never had any lessons nor even been to an art gallery in my life.It is just something i've always been able to do. Music,apart from a reasonable sense of rhythm, no natural talent whatsoever.Its all been hard work and i'm still not where i'd like to be. So my own situation leads me to believe in that nebulous thing called talent. 'Praps i shoulda stuck to drawing ;-)
When I listened for the first time to Wade Schuman on stage (about one year ago here in Brussels) I was petrified on my seat, and thought that time had passed too fast. It occured that I could ask him if he was playing with custom harps: yes, he is Filisko's customer. I don't say that customizing mixes with talent, but it helps for a walk on the tops. That beeing said, I think that for the players we are, there are different "scales" of beeing addict to the instrument, and for many reasons. I see two main reasons at least: 1° the environment: parents or relatives are musicians, and very fast some of us will play with other musicians or even with a consistent band: that's the ideal to have learning leg-ups and evolve faster than the average other players; and 2° the purpose or the sense of all this. I personally have no precise purpose regarding the harp, except astonishing myself (I'm not fast astonished by what I do, unfortunately). I'm sure I have no particular talent, and above all I'm rather lazy, such as not touching one harp during four days... I must say however that I progressed rather fast in tongue blocking technique (thanks to internet) and two months ago, played for the first time of my life facing people ( my brother and a friend, not in a venue, but in a lounge, seemed less empty)...well THEY were rather astonished. I thought after all that maybe I could play sometimes well: that's the first actual encouragement I was given. That means that my best enemy is myself, cause I don't (didn't?) really believe in what I do regarding music. I spend widely more time on this forum than in playing harp: maybe seeking for motivations? (always trying at a very slow pace to make sth. on Waltertore's music!) Eventually it might be that I have talent, but I suppose it's really really deep hidden.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2012 10:28 PM
Just another aspect to consider apart from natural talent is to perhaps have loads of money. A lot of the appeal of the harp is its low cost so perhaps it might not be the instrument of choice for $Billionaires? They would probably only have a Grand Piano in their entry which would be purely for show. However were I extremely rich I would without any hesitation have fast tracked my learning by buying face to face lessons from the best teachers in the world. Plus I would have kitted myself out with the best set of customs.
But I'm dreaming. I'm sure I lack 'natural' talent but at least I would look good & feel good mixing it & playing with the best in some exotic far away places which only money could buy.
I would change Keirons question to "What is natural apptitude? " There is a new TV show which has started here in the UK where they took 900 people and gave them a series of tests to see if they had a natural apptitude for a list of 9 different subject. I haven't seen this show myself but the producers were speaking about it on radio on the way home from work yesterday.
It seems they found a young homeless guy who had only been abroad once to Spain but who showed a natural apptitude (or talent) for languages. Within 12 weeks he had learned to read, write and speak fluent arabic and as part of the show they sent him to Jordan and he appeared on a breakfast time TV show speaking only arabic for 20 mins. I think this is true of everyone, we each have at least one thing we are really good at but not everyone is aware of it. The people we see with natural talent are , I believe, people who have discovered this for themselves and have exploited it. ---------- Oisin
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2012 10:59 PM
Very interessting topic. If I try and order my thought on this, I make a few distinctions. There maybe different forms of talent.
One I think of is the ability when one hears a melody line/phrase harplick whatever, to pick up a harp and just play it. I mean in time, the way you could play it if one just got the chords and the rhythm. Of course this is continuum. And I don’t want to touch on the nature nurture interaction to much, Nacoran gave an excellent reply about this. Tough it makes ‘ my definition’ problematic, for lots of reasons. First of all it’s an ability to a good extent can be developed. Second. In order to play any melody, you need to know something about positions bends Etc. In case of copying harmonica lines one also has to have knowledge about harp techniques TB octaves etc. To make it sound as good as the original.
My point being (as was raised in other reply’s) some just get the line faster. I mean in relation to the time they spend playing music.
Here’s a good example of what I mean, one of course can argue he had more exposure to music if his father is playing that guitar. Or that he may not be he 100% in every other way…I don’t know but that’s natural talent in action if you ask me.
Another distinction is improvisation. To be able to play anything you feel and sound good. (not just to oneself but to the other musicians). Maybe this builds forth on the first thing I mentioned. But a good improviser can copy a line and build forth on this. Again this can be learned as well, but people who just picked up a harp can do this faster.
Wow! Great replies here guys. Very interesting stuff.
I hadn't seen the similar thread that Kyser started before.
Although I play a couple of other instruments, I guess it is the harp I feel I have an affinity with most. It just feels natural to play. It's an intimate instrument and feels like no other (although I guess any instrument you blow into has similarities) in that you feel more directly connected to the instrument (shaping the sound with your lungs and oral cavity)The unique difference with the harp is the 'breathing in' to make the sound also.
I work hard at any instrument I try to play but it is undoubtedly the harp that I feel I have an 'aptitude' for (ref Oisin above)
I naturally took to the harp and though progress hasn't been that fast, I have found a practice=reward=encouragement principle(more so than on another instrument) which has in turn inspired me to practice more. ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2012 7:47 AM
Maybe there are many sides in the question, but I believe this could be approved unanimously: on the field of music and if in principle "talent = gift", then owning the absolute pitch is a must! I was recently very impressed and moved by Toots Thielemans (many of former interviews come up in link with his ninety years old) who's hesitating to speak about his talents: he stated that he actually never ended working, his brains always imaging -in abstract-how he could play "this" if the band plays "that", in terms of improvisation. Know what? This led him to confess he's a selfish person, and -so do I believe- be a "talented" musician goes through selfishness and ongoing work. Well at least, if they succeed in what they do, they widely deserve it.
I was wondering if the natural gift of having perfect pitch could be a blessing in disguise, so I googled it and found this:-
The Pros and Cons of Perfect Pitch: For many, perfect pitch can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. The blessings are that the possessor of perfect pitch can tune a musical instrument without aid, correctly judge whether or not a piece of music is being played in the correct key, and identify specific instruments as playing in or out of tune. The curses are that those with perfect pitch find it harder to enjoy music; like seasoned wine connoisseurs, they can hear all of a performance’s flaws in intonation. They also find it harder to enjoy music not played in their original keys, as to them it is being played out of tune. Famous Possessors of Perfect Pitch:
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, composer Yo-Yo Ma, cellist Ludwig van Beethoven, composer Frederic Chopin, composer Nat King Cole, singer Stevie Wonder, singer. and we can add our own Todd Parrott to that list.
I know that most players will have an idea of when they don't hit a pitch draw bend correctly but imagine playing with perfect pitch and not having the technique to hit it, even a few cents out could be torture! ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2012 8:03 AM
Perfect Pitch can be learned. There is a course offered by David Burge. It works, but you have to have the right "head" and attitude.
I found relative pitch to be more valuable - David Burge also offers a course in this - it teaches you to recognize note intervals, hear clusters or chords as the individual notes, hear chords and recognize their inversions, etc. ---------- The Iceman
As far a I can tell there is genetic factor plus environment that comes to play.My father started in a conservatory at age 14 on a scholarship.My uncle was famous Sax player and teacher in Philadelphia. My niece has a great soprano voice. My great niece is the national champion in dance in junior division and her brother is a great drummer in music college now. This my great nephew playing drums at the school of rock. He was senior in high school at the time.
This is my great niece she's only a sophmore at the performing arts High School in Philadelphia
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2012 9:43 AM
That's just a harmonica tuned in just tuning. LOL That b5 is a little too flat. Dangerous interval to start a riff with sometimes. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Greyowl> Since you posed the questions. I for one would be interested to know your harp story ie how long have you been playing, how often & what involves practice, reference material & tuition/ courses, influences etc? Do you play by ear or make use of tabs etc?
By the way you play great and you have obviously done the hard yards + some natural talent. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
I started playing around 48 years ago as a 15 year old kid in school. One of the lads came into to school one day and started playing harmonica blues style in the lunchbreak. I was totally captivated and remember asking him how he made that sound. It was the note bend sound that was so compelling. He showed me how to do it and I picked it up almost immediately.
He was the only guy I knew that played harp and we soon lost contact after leaving school.
So I was really on my own after that, just self taught, no workshop, no seminars, no lessons, no books, no internet, no cars (just kidding, there were cars) Didn't know it then but I was playing in 2nd position. Jammed with my guitar buddies usually on my Echo Super Vamper from time to time. Listened to a little blues but mainly to the likes of John Mayall, Paul Jones and Paul Butterfield and unfortunately not much at all of the 'Old American Greats'.
I remember learning two parts of songs I really liked 'Stone Fox Chase' and 'Work Song' (Paul Butterfield Intro.)
If I have a natural talent it is like you mentioned above and that is the ability to play by ear, which has been very useful. I don't use tabs but will tab out what I play sometimes to share.
If I heard a melody (pop, rock, blues) I liked I would try and play it, always 2nd postion and on the low holes using the 2 & 3 hole bends a lot. This held me in good stead because it helped enormously in getting comfortable on these low bends. However my knowledge of the harp above hole 6 was woefully inadequate and I am having to learn that now at this late stage!!
Then work, family came along and the harps were set aside and so after a long break I have come back to the instrument and am loving every minute of it.
It was around 2 years ago I came back to the harmonica and I recall watching some videos by Adam, Jason Ricci, Christelle and Paul Lassey and these really whetted my appetite and rejuvinated my interest.
I will play for hours at a time and play every day, noodling, practicing OB's, improvising around tunes, learning some set pieces by the likes of JJ Milteau and Michel Herblin (my current favourite players) picking well known tunes and playing melody lines and improv. over them. Learning new playing positions, learning a little music theory, setting up my own harps.
I am having immense fun as a hobby on this instrument and have enjoyed uploading stuff on Youtube. It's my best instrument though funnily enough I rarely play in public on it, choosing to perform on guitar + vocals instead.
Thanks GreyOwl very interesting journey. I love the harp but find that further growth with the instrument is held back as I age. I'm still very fit and tackle most tasks like I swam nearly 2ks today. But the harp is testing me. I'm happy where I'm at but I fear that staying where I'm at is becoming more & more of a challenge. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
That's a decent swim Aussie! I'm a keen swimmer myself and I think it's useful lung exercise for the harp. Yes I suppose the speed of development/improvement will slow down as one ages and the demand to practice will increase to maintain a certain level, but surely the bottom line is to enjoy the instrument.
It's like swimming which I started to enjoy too late in life to become really good. I can watch these youngsters fly down the pool and think I would like to keep up, but I realise that is futile so I keep to a pace that nicely tries to challenges me and not them! ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Great topic Owl as can be seen by the number of posts in the other thread and the tenacity with which the various arguments were made.
My take on it is that for the people who reach the absolute pinnacle in their field; whether it be great musician, artist, actor, engineer, doctor or whatever; there is clearly a mixture of innate ability and hard work that got them to where they are.
The extreme arguments on either end, that either talent or effort alone can produce a world class product seems to me to be an absurd claim.
I took to the harp rather easily in the beginning finding it much easier to play simple tunes than the guitar which was my first love. But of course, truly mastering it is another story so in the end the jokes on me.
Regarding practice...I put in hardly any.....with predictable results. It's a continuing problem for me.....love to play...hate to practice.....not a recipe for success as most would define that term.
But I hold no delusions of making it big someday as a musician/performer......so it works for me.......sort of.
My personal teaching experiences have shown me that most people do have a natural talent at music. In quite a few cases with my adult students, I find that they were poisoned by a bad elementary or junior high/high school music teacher that told them they had no talent, something they carried around as truth for many years. This was the case of a lousy teacher, not lousy talent.
A lot of my adult students were able to overcome this ridiculous mind set through working with me and were pleasantly surprised to find their dormant talent reawakened.
Once again, I counsel that it is just as important to choose a teacher as it is to find a good doctor or lawyer in the sea of incompetence that exists out there. ---------- The Iceman
In pop culture, we are often presented with the idea that people are literally born with it or not.
IME, it is much more complicated than that and involves just as much nurture as nature.
Regarding harmonica, even when you look at some of the young phenoms, I think it is unfair to say that those people are just really talented. For example, I think Alex Paclin came to harmonica after learning other instruments first. I also believe he's commented on the endless hours of practice he has put in. In addition, just based off his obvious influences, he did his homework and was very intentional in his practice.
IMO, most people waste a lot of time and energy in the wrong things. If they took similar paths as their idols, they would have better results. While you can start a journey with an advantage, the vast majority of success comes from putting effort into the right things.
With the exception of that top 1-3% of things, people have to work hard to be good at things. Hopefully, they find things they are passionate.
Finally, how many people do you know who are successful with things and have put little effort in (and are happy doing what they're doing)? The most "talented" people rarely are successful for just showing up, etc.
All my friends already played guitar and bass...and drums too...I was the only one who'd sing and I liked to listen to harmonica.
"i.e Do you or did you feel you had the leg-up of natural ability with this instrument from the start or has it been an ongoing struggle?"
I was familiar with breath support and posture, but I had no background other than listening to a ton of harmonica. I studied how to play the instrument for a full year before buying my first harmonica. I had no formal training in anything other than voice, and could not read music.
"What ability/factor has made your progress faster?"
Doing my homework and practicing a ton. What made me move faster at times was taking time to study and find ways to maximize my practice - targeting specific topics and practicing intentionally. I also asked for feedback from others relentlessly.
While I love harmonica, music ranks third in my list of priorities. As within other areas, I've always felt that while I can't change my background knowledge or past experiences (whether it was a case of nature or nurture), I could always work harder and smarter than others to accomplish my goals.
Iceman, Find a teacher: not only to be teached, but to gain a lot of time, that means avoid to sort tons of information that can be found on the net (no criticism, only stating the facts).
Greyowl, if you are keen on working Milteau's music, find out by Di Arezzo, they sell 2 or 3 song-books from him (I own 2) with original backing tracks.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2012 7:54 AM
Everyone has different aptitudes. Although I took some jazz improvisation classes in college, I understood almost nothing about the theory. It may surprise some of you that I spent around 15 years of playing knowing nearly nothing of theory.
I somehow learned what keys were first second and third position on a harp and I knew that if I could find my root notes and the fifth notes I could play in any position, although I know lots of my music sounded avant garde weird (and still does!)
I basically put in as much feeling as I could into any thing I played and went for it.
To take that jazz improv class I had to know my major scales. Someone taught me them by rote. I had no idea about the relationships between the notes.
By studying Little Walter and George Smith I learned how to play chromatic in third and first position blues and I was able to make the correlations that C in first position worked the same way as D in third position, D in first worked the same as E in third, etc. I figured out which notes did what in blues and started playing chromatic blues in every key. That was a huge eye opener. I really had to think about the function of each scale degree.
Then I was hired to play in a Broadway show. I lied and said I could read musis. I took two music reading lessons and busted my behind to learn it. I may be one of the best readers among harp players, but I am one of the worst among trained readers.
During the show, one day a singer was sick. The conductor said, okay, today we have to play this song in A to accomodate the new singer's range. I said, "What key are we in now?" You could have heard a pin drop.
I decided I needed to learn theory. I began asking my musician friends all the questions I could. I would always ask the same question of multiple friends to be sure I got a consistent answer. As it turned out, I have an aptitude for theory and more importantly, I believe I have an aptitude for explaining theory (and others things as well. Although Meat and Potatoes are all about theory, my private students learn technique, timing, improvisation and how to build their own philosophy of what music is to them).
Although now I have to earn enough money to pay for the baby wife and mortgage and so my practice time is limited to 3 to 10 hours a week, when I was single I would easily practice 8 hours a day for around 20 years. I have gone on small two week tours and have always gigged around 3 gigs a week, 5 to 8 when I made a living performing. But I have never done what Jason, Kim, Estrin or a SMALL handful of players have done. I'm talking about touring constantly. There is no question in my mind that THAT is what separates the very goods from the greats.
I am a decent blues player. I am very good at playing a variety of musical styles. I am good at diatonic with overblows, chromatic, bass and harmonetta. Because I play in a wide variety of styles, I think I would be a better choice for lots of gigs over the top harp players today. However, it is obvious to me that unless I change my lifestyle and become a harp hermit half the year and tour the other half I will never be as good as the top players of today. That is, if you buy into competition. If music truly is subjective, we are all as good as each other.
I do believe in talent. I have taken 4 years of singing lessons from 4 different teachers (one year each) and I still am not going to impress anyone with my singing. I think Kim Wilson on the first Thunderbirds' record or early Little Walter proves that talent exists. They might have put in an incredible amount of hours, but they still were just barely adults. However, I think with years of practice hours and regular touring anyone could be a high level pro, barring any learning disability that would prevent it.
Natural ability, Some have it and some don't and some have vairing degrees of natural ability. Jason Ricci has natural ability even though he has a lot of wood shed time he's still got it.And there are others , Alix is a good example. I can play guitarbut I'll never be a lead player even though I tried for years. The harmonica clicked for me. Mike
Talent is that 'knack' for something-it comes natural to the individual. People can study and aqcuire skill without having an innate ability to do so, but they have to try and work MUCH harder at it in general than someone who has talent at that particular thing. ---------- Todd L. Greene
How can it be proved that someone like Jason has natural ability? Sure, he may have had a passion for the harmonica, but I don't think it is logical to assume that everything he (or anyone else) has tried to accomplish as come relatively easy to the time taken to woodshed.
I dunno, I can't think of one harmonica player who is considered great that would say they just had a knack for it.
I do think Todd almost gets it. I would say that knack is often a passion for it. These people bring solid background knowledge and passion to things.
Granted, a VERY small percentage, of which probably none of us qualify as, can claim nature and talent. I would say that there are more examples of even pro atheletes who simply out worked and fought people to be successful.
Take a look at a lot of the genetic freaks too, and how the successful ones have put in the time and effort. To me, this proves that even with some advantages, people have to work to maximize their potential.
I played at a high level of both high school and college football...in a town of hockey players. A lot of guys went D1 in either sport, and quite a few became pros. That being said, no matter how good they were in elementary and high school, once puberty ran its course, those that worked the hardest made it the furthest. Of the people I knew personally, they often had a lot of advantages - fathers who were star atheletes and coaches that worked with them since birth, money to access specialized training, reputations that gave them opportunity...EDIT: We often judge people based on potential and then continue to project that image over time regardless of evidence of success and domination over peers - I call this the Tony Romo effect.
You even see this in pro sports...guys that come in as can't misses, but eventually tank. Often, we associate the talent piece with youth (often times just relative to their peers) and the top 1-3% of success stories.
Another great example is Derek Trucks. He had an intense passion for guitar...his uncle was in the Allmans, his parents LOVED music and went out of their way to help him fuel his passion. By 11 he was on stage with the Allmans and considered a prodigy. Truth is, if you didn't know his age, he sounded just like every other guitar player who spent hours a day for several years learning.
He then continued to play and play and play through today. He is awesome because of the work he put it. Proof being he has gotten better over time.
To clarify, I do think there is a limit to what people can do, and that can be different for different people. I just think we overestimate those limits frequently, exaggerate the position of others, and focus more on things like potential than evidence.
As I reflect on my own life, any success has been as a result of effort. Any perception of being a natural would be something I would dismiss as a mistake.
Most the time, when people talk about being natural at something, I've found that they either didn't know the whole story or were making excuses. YMMV ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
It seems that people that don't have a good ear have real trouble with a harmonica. You can't see what you are playing, you just hear what you are playing. ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
There are many different skills and though processes that go into playing music well. Everybody's mind is wired differently. The person with the wiring and athletic skills suited to the task has "natural" talent. After that, it's practice, knowledge, and gigging..which aren't natural.
Is a good ear inherent or something you can learn?
Granted, some people have perfect pitch, but that isn't required in being a good or great musician. It may be helpful, but there are endless examples of people without it doing awesome.
As you reflect on those without a good ear for music, have they been proactive in trying to have a good ear? I think of my wife...she casually listens to pop music, doesn't plan an instrument, has no interest in singing or thinking critically about music...her younger sister plays three instruments and sings in choirs. She is always singing or playing an instrument or writing music.
I'm an ex-competitive athlete myself, HS, college and minor league professional for a couple of years, and I have the exact opposite conclusion as ninja as it relates to talent v. work.
While it's true at the lowest levels that kids that play/practice more are more likely to go further; by the time your reach a major college program or the minor league professional ranks EVERYBODY has worked their ass off to get where they are, and continues to do so. Player's that go on to big league careers can't be analyzed simply. You have to specify what kind of success you're talking about. If your talking about the fringe major leaguers, believe it or not luck has a great deal to do with it. Being in the right organization at the right time, beng liked by the right scout, have a good series of games during a brief call up etc. But there's no doubt in my mind that the guys who go on to have long star-studded careers, do so because they have something special in the way of talent. Something that can't be taught or learned though more repetition or an innovative practice regime (working harder or smarter), or the right coach.
It's discomforting to people to hear that, because it means that the saying "you can be anything you want to be" is a lie to a certain extent. All the study, practice and rehearsal in the world does not guarantee that you will develop a unique voice, write commercially successful songs or have a career as an A-list performer/musician/athlete or whatever. Cynical outlook? Maybe...or maybe just an observation from somebody that's been down that road.
Of course the only way to find out if you're that talented is to take your shot. Nothing wrong with trying and falling short. The only shame would be in not trying at all.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2012 11:25 AM
@Mike: my dad had perfect pitch and I was envious of him, in a nice way. I always wanted it. I've played harp & keyboards, gigging off & on for about 45 years. I got to a point about 5-6 years ago where I could walk up to a piano and hit the key (about 90% of the time) that I was humming at the time. I'd been practicing boards alot, and playing alot more of it in my band than I was accustomed to. So-o-o, I'd attribute that to familiarity; playin' alot. I never tried it on the harp. Our band plays alot in G, so I found it easy to sing that pitch without outside reference, and to recognize it when I hear it. That's just my experience, but, again, everybody's wired differently. for ex., you know those guys who can hear a tune and turn around and play it back, nearly 100%. I've got a son with about 85% photographic memory, but he has to read something a few times to be able to recite it back.
Natural talent is natural talent. You know it if you have it, and I think that I do. I wish I did have 5 hours a day to develop it, I have no doubt that in 6 months to a year something wonderful would result. But I have a career and I have to scratch out a material existence. That's where a lot of us stand, I'm afraid. I just wish that someone had handed me a harmonica when I was 8 years old or something. But then again, I might not have become an attorney.
