MP
1229 posts
Jan 05, 2011
2:25 PM
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though some may disagree, i have a list of factors and mods, in order of importance, that i believe make for a good playing instrument.
first- is the harp in tune? you can't make good music with an out of tune instrument. even though it is the very last thing i do to my harps, it tops the list.
second- extremely flat comb. hopefully your reed plates are also very flat. when these two form an optimum mating surface, most performance issues magically disappear do to minimun air loss.
third-alignment and screw tension. misaligned plates and individual reeds that are misaligned can cause a host of headaches. if your harp has screws, pay close attention to screw tension while you are at it. to me proper torque means almost no torque. to much torque can create leakage, strip screws, etc.
fourth- gapping and reed shape. with a flat comb one need not get extreme with these techniques. finely adjusted reeds are a thing of beauty.
fifth- embossing. yes, it is overated. even so, it will make a difference. my harps get brassy and important sounding. also, less air is needed with tight slot tolerances. with proper gapping, this technique makes a harp more overblow friendly.
and lastly, is open backed cover-plates. this is a tonal difference more than a performance issue and is a matter of personal taste.
any thoughts?
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
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Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2011 3:43 PM
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nacoran
3574 posts
Jan 05, 2011
2:39 PM
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You have 4th twice.
Gapping is probably the quickest fix though, and the one a new harp most likely needs, but I agree that if you had a harp that was deficient in all these categories, or you're building a harp from raw parts, that sounds like a pretty good order.
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Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2011 2:39 PM
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hvyj
997 posts
Jan 05, 2011
3:05 PM
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In tune is primary, but i don't do ANYTHING to a harp but gap.
on my customs i have open backs on key of D and below. unopened backs on Eb and above. I find that the tighter tolerances of the reeds/reedplates on customs brighten the tone making the higher keys a little too brash to my ear if the backs are opened--the closed backs give the high keys a little more warmth, IMHO.
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arzajac
420 posts
Jan 05, 2011
3:22 PM
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I would have thought the last thing to do is the gaps since tuning (or most anything else) can change the gapping.
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hvyj
999 posts
Jan 05, 2011
3:27 PM
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Gapping is the only thing i know how to do. i play my harps more thani work on them. Opinions as to how well I know how to play them vary, but except for gapping i certainly don't know anything about working on them
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MP
1230 posts
Jan 05, 2011
3:39 PM
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-oops! fourth fourth! doh!
yes arzajak,-how are you doing by the way?- you can knock out your gap with tuning last. but i find i'm more likely to knock out the tuning by gapping. on certain reeds it can be a back and forth deal. especially in the high register.
i didn't include sealing wood combs. this is because sealing is a preventative measure. even so, i should have put it in simply because wood can warp and ruin your seal.
adam doesn't seal his harps. he might argue the performance point.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2011 3:59 PM
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isaacullah
1329 posts
Jan 05, 2011
3:43 PM
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hmmm... I definitely agree that these are the important things, but like many things in life, it is easy to pick the most and least important things out of a list, but it is much harder to order those in the middle. What I'm trying to say is that I'd be hard pressed to pick an order of priority for items 2-4 as things to do to *all* harps as de rigur routine. However, if you were to give me *a particular* harp and say "you can only do one of these three things", I could probably figure out which one of those three things would make the most difference to the playability of *that particular harp*.
Now, if I was to pick some of those things to recommend for a raw beginner to do to their harps, regardless of skill-level, my list would be as follows:
1) gapping
2) torque of screws
I wouldn't recommend raw beginners to do anything else. You can too easily screw these things up, and when you do, you've really screwed your harp up badly and it'll be hard or impossible to fix it.
Advanced beginners should get to know how to tune up a harp. They should also start to learn how to flat sand. This will really stop a lot of the air-loss (as MP says). Also in this range I would put in rounding the tips of the comb tines.
Somewhere in this range of advanced-beginner, low-intermediate, one can also start fooling with reed alignment. You need the right tools: either a reed wrench or a thin shim. It's important to learn how to align reeds before stepping on to the next thing, which is embossing.
Embossing is really only for intermediates or above, as it will really require you to know how a harp works and you also need to have refined your playing technique to know what you want embossing to do for you and to take full advantage of the affects of it.
I fully agree about the cover plates thing. That's a matter of taste and experimentation. Some like 'em opened, some don't. I'd say don't bother experimenting with this until you know what you want *your* sound to be. Somewhere in the intermediate to advanced-intermediate range. Also in this category is rounding off the ends of the harp with a belt sander. Depending on your grip style, this may make a lot of difference for your comfort while playing, or it may not make any difference at all.
Now, for more advanced players, who have mastered their playing technique, there are a lot of other little customization tweeks that they might like to pursue. This includes reed chamfering, double embossing, comb channel tip scooping, waxing, greasing, reed resurfacing, comb channel modification, etc.
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Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2011 3:45 PM
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MP
1231 posts
Jan 05, 2011
3:57 PM
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isaac,
i agree with the raw beginner advice. tuning, flat sanding,embossing etc. take a lot of skill.
i think beginers are bombarded with too much info personally. my post is aimed more at the customizer(like arzajac).----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Silvertone
67 posts
Jan 05, 2011
4:10 PM
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That all looks right to make a harp sound good. Your in tune.You have stopped leakage between comb and plate. And you've minimized reed to slot gaps by gapping,aligning and embossing.
You've got a good harp!
The only thing I could add would be coverplate to reedplate seal you can lose some air there. And while checking reedplate flatness the screwholes shouldnt be overlooked sometimes they're bulged out on the comb side and that deformation can be easily filed down.Reeds should be flat not twisted and tightly riveted or screwed down.
What makes a good harp great? Is it arcing, chamfering, reed polishing. I remember reading that Rick Epping surmised ,while he was at Hohner,that chamfered reeds were louder and maybe had greater torsional rigidity but I havent attempted it. It looks like an accident waiting to happen for me.
What else is there that can be done?
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MP
1232 posts
Jan 05, 2011
4:52 PM
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-Silvertone,
good amps by the way.
i've never tried chamfering. i think i'd like to play a harp with chamfered reeds before going down that road.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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isaacullah
1332 posts
Jan 05, 2011
4:58 PM
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Chamfering does make a difference. Chris used to do that on his harps, and it's one of the reason his were the best. It's a major major major PITA to do though. Especially if one is to do it right. I don't think I want to comment on the specifics of what Chris used to do, so please don't ask me to divulge this info yet. Suffice it to say that when done correctly, it really does make notable difference. It's probably one of the most difficult things you can do to a harp though. I certainly couldn't do it the way it needs to be done without screwing it up.
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Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2011 4:59 PM
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MP
1233 posts
Jan 05, 2011
5:05 PM
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-i've only seen photos. it looks difficult. trying it might upset my psychic equalibrium to the point where it becomes irrepairable.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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oldwailer
1489 posts
Jan 05, 2011
5:09 PM
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I find the gaps have to be good before I can tune it well--then, when it's in tune, I gap again. Tuning and gapping are like airplane maintenance--always a good idea. . .
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Silvertone
68 posts
Jan 05, 2011
5:33 PM
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Here is a link w/ pics on how to chamfer and the tools used.
https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dckkn2d6_32vjf4qr
One slip and youve ruined the reed. Definately need to use a junk harp to practice on. It does look lke a major pita. Im with MP need to try one before I go to the effort.
But apparently this is one of things that seperate good and great
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chromaticblues
449 posts
Jan 05, 2011
7:02 PM
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I did a hole harp champhering all the reeds. It took the whole weekend last summer. I DID NOT like the way it sounded at all. It was very bright and tinny sounding. I've said it before and I'll say it again the more you work on a harp the more the tone changes. I believe alot of people trade tone for ease of playing, but tone is very subjective. Everything we do to the harp changes the tone. The trick is not so much to make a list of the important stuff to do, but just try one mod on a harp and play it for a week or two. Then compre it to a good gapped stock harp. If you like that then try somethig else. What most people will find is there is a cut of point where it just starts getting to tinny. All the different brands and models modify differently also. To add to the confusion most harp customizers have different ideas of what is important and what isn't.
I just noticed you mentioned flat reedplates, but didn't say sanding the drawplate flat. Not all harps require the drawplate be sanded. Not all harps require full slot embossing. Short slot harps need full slot embossing. It really helps the bending/overblow/overdraws. I've built long slot harps with just hole 7,8,9 and 10 with full slot embossing. I've built some full slot embossed 4 thru 10.
Harp performance is what you want a harp to do!
Most of it is playing!!
HarpNinja said once that no one could build a better harp for him than he could. I remember that because I can relate. You have to know what you want from a harp and know what to do about it. Thats the part that takes alot of work!
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boris_plotnikov
395 posts
Jan 05, 2011
8:58 PM
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MP
I insist that embossing is underrated, especially if you can play and control (!) overbends. If harmonica have flat comb, flat reedplates, embossed well, you actually don't need too tight gaps. I have some harmonicas I customize 2 years before microscopic embossing, they are unplayable for me now, as I have to make gaps too narrow to have controllable overbends.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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MP
1234 posts
Jan 05, 2011
10:40 PM
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-oh yeah! flat sand the draw plate.
boris, you are such a fine player i won't bother to argue with you.
i just chamfered the 10 blow on an E harp. now i can do both blow bends on it with ease and hardly any breath force.(i won't do it with people around because it is irritating).
just tried playing a few of chromaticblues SP/20s with marine band covers. very nice work. the tuning is spot on. they play great, and ring out. i won't say what he did to them. he can tell you if he wants. one small mystery-is what ever happened to the nail holes?-------
"Most of it is playing!!" couldn't agree more.
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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chromaticblues
450 posts
Jan 06, 2011
7:38 AM
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@MP I bought the coverplates from Hohner before they were put on a harp. I know alot of people have posted negative feelings towards Hohner, but they have been VERY helpful for me. They hooked me up to distributer to buy new harp (they only sell harps to distributers in the US), but I have dealer account with them for parts. I have to buy bulk quanities to get good prices, but this way I can provide a service at a reasonable (IMHO) price! I hope MoJo likes them as well. Your the first person that has mention the tuning. To me that is such a big part of it. It took me about two years of trail and error to finnaly settle on that. The best part of building harps for me is other people enjoying what I do!
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HarpNinja
933 posts
Jan 06, 2011
8:01 AM
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I know builders tend to change how they do things as they go, but I haven't seen too many customs with reeds that look like the Rick Epping picture.
I have seen "chamfered" reeds, but I can honestly say I am not sure how they were chamfered. I mean, they for sure were, but regarding the tools, etc, I can't say.
I know for 100% that there are different views and approaches to how to accomplish chamfering. I also have been told, which doesn't mean I can prove, from a couple of reputable builders that chamfering isn't always done on high end customs.
Regarding embossing, I still think it is overrated. Most players will need nowhere the command Boris does, and all of my customs from other builders, while embossed, are gapped tight, don't choke, and can easily bend the overblows.
Reed profiles and gapping are much better studies for the home builder than super advanced embossing.
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Mike
Quicksilver Harmonicas
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chromaticblues
451 posts
Jan 06, 2011
9:19 AM
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Yeah I second that Mike. The way you set a reed is the most important and should be the first thing anyone tries to learn. How can you tell if any of your work is paying off if the reed isn't set properly for your playing? You can't!
Now don't get me wrong I emboss every single harp I build, but I DO NOT USE A HARP WRENCH and swing the reed to one side emboss that side and then swing it the other way and do that side.
I'm not saying anyone that does that is wrong. I'm saying I stumbled onto a better method just because I was trying to find an easier way of doing it. Earlier I posted embossing does two things. Most people that emboss do it to tighten the gap. If done a certain way you can control the stream of air. I tried it a bunch of different ways and noticed the harps were powerful, loud and very easy to play.
So Yeah I agree embossing is talked about more than it really needs to be. Its like overblows. Overblowing is just a way of bending a note. Its just one more thing to learn and thats it. I find it very useful and challenging. I'm allways fiddling with my harps to get the 7 hole overdraw. I love that one. Its not a big sonic trck thats going to blow people away, but I know I can do it and do. I think to many people give up on overlows and draws. Then make excuses why they suck. They are very hard to do without your harp being set up for to do them.
I know some of are thinking: If I don't know how to do it how can I set my harp up to do it. They go hand in hand. You have to learn how to set the harps as your learning to play the harp. How far you progress will be limited if you don't.
OK back to work!
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MP
1236 posts
Jan 06, 2011
10:02 AM
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kevin,
your welcome and you make a fine harp.
i'm surprised to be the first person to mention how well tuned your harps are. i think BBQBOB said hohner factory harps are given 10 minutes only? for tuning. at 20 reeds that's 30 seconds per reed. it may be less than 10 minutes, i forget.
for a minute i thought you pounded in the nail holes and somehow smoothed the surface clean.
SP/20 cover-plates always sound like SP/20 cover-plates, even if you open the back and vent the sides, they still dampen the sound.
the MB plates make the SP/20 sound like a MB. ---------
i think i have to re-think my methods.
i use a harp wrench and swing that sucker. then a socket to emboss both sides simultaneously. then i can do what i want with the reed completely intact.-
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Silvertone
69 posts
Jan 06, 2011
10:22 AM
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How about reed profiles? Dead flat ,arced? Different for longer/shorter wider/skinnier reeds? I agree w/ not using a reed wrench while embossing. IMHO That will create a loose reed to plate joint.
I am definately not a skilled enough musician to require a perfectly set up harp, but I think that using a more responsive and well set up harp will make anyone a better player. I need all the help I can get :)
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chromaticblues
452 posts
Jan 06, 2011
11:07 AM
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@ Silvertone
Yes I agree a well set up harp will speed up your learning process if you put the time into it.
I try to take all the curve out of the reed. Then bend the last 25% of the reed up just barly past parralell. Do not disturb the profile while embossing.
I think everyone would gain alot by just messing around with that stuff a little. Just so you can adjust it yourself. One BIG misconseption is that a custom harp is perfect and I don't have to do anything to it. That is not true. I constantly make minor adjustments to my harps to make them operate at a very high level. It is an ongoing thing. It doesn't bother me anymore, but I use to hate spending time farting around with harps instead of playing and learning. Everyone should try to learn how to set the reeds!
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MP
1237 posts
Jan 06, 2011
1:56 PM
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Silvertone, i second what chro says about taking the curve out of the reed. it is an arc.
while arced reeds work, a flat reed just works better for me.
i'm still experimenting with the best way and best tool to achieve this without blowing the profile.
one thing that dramatically increases volume is flat sanding the bottom reed-plate. your comb can be flat as all get go but unless your bottom plate is flat, it's useless.
kinya pollard shows how to flat sand plates in his Monster Harmonica Workbench series. i think the article is 'comb over part 4' oct 2008 in Mel Bays Harmonica Sessions-online magazine. maybe i'm wrong about the date but sift through back issues till you find it. priceless tips there.
chro, what do you use to emboss? you do an awfully good job of it.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2011 2:04 PM
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Silvertone
70 posts
Jan 07, 2011
11:02 AM
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@MP Thanks,The Mel Bays Harmonica Sessions-webzine does have a lot of good imfo. I dont remember sanding any plates,but have used both micropore and chapstick .Both worked well at sealing comb to plate,w/ chapstick winning out, for me ,due to ease of application. Only a very thin film applied to the comb no gobs or chunks to gum up the reeds.(Cautionary note, due not rinse plastic combed,chapstick gasketed harp in hot water to clean,it will melt and leave your harps needing a complete teardown and thorough cleaning with more hot water.)
Ill give sanding a try it cant take very long to do.
:)Theres a lot of good imfo in this thread!
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MP
1242 posts
Jan 07, 2011
12:39 PM
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-harpninja made pdf files of pollards tips. if you flat sand the bottom plate and use chapsick(i like strawberry and cherry) you get a very good seal. i stopped useing micropore because there are problems you may run across after it's been there a long time. it may deaden the tone too, but i'm just guessing.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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HarpNinja
939 posts
Jan 07, 2011
4:32 PM
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My draw scrapper was getting dull so I decided to treat myself to a new one - and a full set of Richard Sleigh's tools! With it came a tool kit guide and part of his book.
I am sorry, but if "customizing" harps is something you want to learn and you haven't bought any of his books or tools, then it isn't worth the time to post about it.
Seriously. Just buy his book and his tool kit. That is more than enough to make sure you can set up your own harp very well. It isn't everything, but it is all the most important stuff.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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Silvertone
72 posts
Jan 07, 2011
6:33 PM
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"I am sorry, but if "customizing" harps is something you want to learn and you haven't bought any of his books or tools, then it isn't worth the time to post about it."
@ harp ninja
I'm sorry you feel that way.I have no commercial interest in customizing harps just trying to make my own play well. I believe the spirit of this forum and this thread is the free exchange of imformation.
I have not read Mr. Sleighs book and I do wonder is there anything we've missed in this thread? I've seen his tool set on the web and it does look sharp. Besides the draw scraper and that leather case, I dont see anything that could not be easily substituted. The draw scraper is pretty neat. I cut and ground down an allen wrench and it works pretty good. Great idea!.
Im sorry if I have misconstrued the meaning of your written words :)
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HarpNinja
940 posts
Jan 07, 2011
7:22 PM
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Silvertone, my post was more directed to the general obsession with customizing here. But, seriously, why wouldn't you want the information from a primary source who is one of the top builders in the world?
Even if you get his small tool set, for under $100 you can have THE book on the topic as well as the tools to do it. It just seems like a lot of thinking out loud and assuming people know what they are talking about.
I don't mean to sound angry, but it is frustrating that people will waste time, money, and harps thinking they can recreate a top tier harp in a few weeks or months with little monetary investment.
If you are just looking to do the basics, I still insist if you don't know what Richard and Rupert Oysler share via their products, you are doing things wrong and wasting resources.
That being said things like chamfering, tip scooping, insane embossing, etc are all like running before walking. There is even multiple interpretations of what arcing should be on this thread!
Learn to set reeds, gap, and tune. Then when you need more, not think you need, then stress about affording a custom or learning more. I build customs and have told several people wanting my most expensive harps to consider a lower priced harp. If you aren't obing or in need of a top tier gigging harp, a harp with even the basic setup will kill an ootb harp. Many people don't need or get benefit from a lot of the advanced stuff.
I have studied directly now with two excellent customizers (both with similar approaches to Filisko) that build phenominal ob harps as well as non-ob. I am telling you...Richard has it beyond figured out and for very little money shares the most crucial pieces, including how to do it.
If you are a customizer, I have probably read everything you've ever posted or shared online...newbs to the absolute best. While the how sometimes changes, the what is almost always the same! If the top guys shared everything, it would be so beyond what 99% of home builders would do, it would be a waste of time to do it all. The embossing, arcing, and tuning are a prerequisite.
The top builders also end up being technically amazing players...which isn't necessarily the same as amazing performer. Keep practicing. It is a lot easier to set a harp up to do something when you know how to do it right and what it should feel like. I just don't get how one, and I am not accusing anyone here of doing anything wrong, can set up an ob harp and not be good at it already or think they can set up a good one having never tried an excellent one already.
Finally, there is also the balance of preformance and tone. What good is a harp that has a ton of mods but doesn't have the tone anymore? I like GM's best for their tone. Embossing, gapping, and tuning can make a gig worthy harp that sounds like a GM. Chamfering, extreme embossing, tip scooping, wax....all change the fundamental tone! One reaso btw I love custom combs is they too change the action without screwing with the tone....but I am of the camp that comb material doesn't effect tone much.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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HarpNinja
941 posts
Jan 07, 2011
7:39 PM
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Btw, I don't gig a full set of my top end harps. I don't do all the same reedwork on them either. It just depends on what I need them for.
Chris Michalek's gig harps sucked. They looked like crap and he only carried around 7 keys tops. They played great, but not as nice as his best work. The point being, a little can go a long way. Learn the basics from Richard's book and Rupert's dvd and you will have custom harps better than what 90% of harpists use.
If you don't have time, buy customs. All my build are either pros with no time to tweak or average joes who just want to play and not waste time tinkering. I guess some just need repairs. Customs are usually cheaper in the long run when you factor in time and tools and screw ups needed to do your own...I easily have a couple thousand in tools and am finishing a new workshop as we speak....gonna run about $4,000 to finish (ok, not a have to to tinker), but will be all mine! I can't even make my own combs yet!
New harp...$30+...new comb...$25+....you can buy a low tier custom for the same or less. Buy a top end and you typically get cheap repairs for years, customer support, a great learning tool. A $200 harp can easily last as long, with repair, than 4+ ootb harps that swell, go flat, break...
Anyone wanting to tinker should have at least some of the cheaper customs in a range of key to try and copy. Gotta have something to compare to...gotta see if you own are rwally what you need.
Again...book and tools from Richard for under $100!
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2011 7:42 PM
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Silvertone
73 posts
Jan 07, 2011
8:13 PM
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Very well said!!! :) Thank you. The Sleigh tool set does look better than I remember.
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MP
1247 posts
Jan 08, 2011
1:23 AM
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--your posts seem angry.--------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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boris_plotnikov
397 posts
Jan 08, 2011
1:34 AM
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Mike
I start to hate almost all my gigging harps. They works much worse than harps that I currently do for my customers and I alway have no time to recustomize them.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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MP
1248 posts
Jan 08, 2011
10:05 AM
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-Silvertone, that allen wrench idea sounds like a great idea! (i'm slow on the uptake). i'd often wondered how to make my own draw scraper. i've mimiced some of sleighs other tools.----
i suppose you bevel a fine edge on the allen with grinding wheel, then insert allen into a pin vise?-----
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2011 10:34 AM
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Silvertone
74 posts
Jan 08, 2011
1:15 PM
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@MP
I used a dremel tool cut off wheel and honed the edge on some fine grit sandpaper. It was a long handle 1/8"?allen wrench. I havent put a handle on it but it would certainly work better w/ one. A handle with a flat face to reference the cutting edge would be ideal.
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MP
1253 posts
Jan 08, 2011
1:44 PM
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ah! nice! i might look for an allen that's small enough to work inside the harp. if i ever find the time.----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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