If I promise not to look, will you charge me less? Some people are clearly better suited (to the task).
And, how can any one make any money, off of suckers like me, anyway...if we're all doin it ourselves?
Sure, I could take more time, and try to reverse engineer the thing. No thanks.
Truth IS..I couldn't afford it anyway. I wasn't kidding about the $50 harp.
I didn't realized someone responded from that thread awhile back,too.
And I missed my oppurtunity.
I was told later, and I cried for a week straight.
For ME, tuning is very tricky, and I have messed up more harps experimenting, than I want to admit(and can afford). God forbid messin up a custom!
Secretly..I would still like to learn how. I do practice harp alot, too. My spare time is tight. The risk/profit/loss ratio is not in my favor quite yet. Less stressful. I'm one of those guys you'll never see unless there is a jam or show.
Man, I have got to get out and jump in the ocean...
Happy Holidays!
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 11:17 PM
@Mojokane I can make you $50 harps. They would used harps that I take in trade, but good in slightly used condition. Sometimes I trade with people that just gave up on Hohner's. Once I get them I open them up and see what is wrong and either put them in my parts box or good box. Usually these are SP 20's so if thats something you would be interested in let me know and I'll see what keys I have. sbaker60@cox.net
We all have different levels of mechanical ability. Some of us own little more than a screwdriver and pliers. People near this catagory would likely destroy a harp. Then there is the other end of the spectrum. Myself, I have a pretty good mechanical apptitude. I do most everything to our home and vehicles because I find that when I pay someone to do the job it isn"t as good as I can do myself and that pisses me off. We find this in any given profession. I can and do work on my harps. Am I reaching the level of my Buddha? No. I did a restoration of a classic car last year. I took the car apart and put it back together. I hired a pro to paint the body pieces and then I reassembled it. I could've layed the paint too. I've done it dozens of times but I couldn't paint it to the level of quality that I wanted so I hired the pro. Perfection is unattainable but we strive for it. Some of us do anyway.
I painted my house, layed the tile, the brick pavers, everything, a complete restoration. Well, my wife and I did. Thank goodness we could do this well and thank goodness there are pro's out their to do it for others that cannot. I sure as hell didn't put anybody out of business because I did it for myself. Their will always be a need for pro's and that's a good thing. Let's face it, If Chris, Joe or any of the others took a group of ten people lets say. Held a class on their how to and those students all built a harp. Some of those harps wouldn't work even though the pro told tham just how to do it. That's just the way it is.
I need a class on reading spam prevention codes. Na, it wouldn't help.
The discrete comb might do that, but the answer is (and the point I was trying to make) is that the air leakage is just one aspect of air flow The big 'leaky' partner reed is not a real problem because of the way the air pressure within the system block it off.
Leonid thinks physics is overcomplicating things.
I say the first step to knowing how to improve a system is knowing how it works. Otherwise it's just like hitting something with a hammer in the hope it starts.
It is no coincidence that big speed improvements in locomotive speed coincided with the development of the science of flight - i.e aerodynamics. Take knowledge from A and apply it to B.
There is enough reference material in the public domain (remember harmonica is not the only free reed instrument) and in the harp-l archives - including stuff from Buddha, Sleigh and Spiers.
It's understanding applying it which is the next step for me.
To me there appears to be a misunderstanding in this thread of what reed profiles actually are. The reed profile is milled into the surface of the brass strip out of which the reeds are punched. This takes place in the factory. Customizers don't really change the profile significantly.
One thing that has not been mentioned in discussing how Filisko et al achieve such great results is that these gentlemen are also truly great players. Less accomplished players aren't usually in a position to be able to accurately assess the effects that their adjustments have on how the harp plays.
Yeah, but adjusting the profile means that you can only take stuff away... hmmm. If you produce them yourslef you need the specialised machines.
Here are two vids on reed profile I did a while ago. Again,.. not everything is 100% correct... just my thoughts on the subject. Plus, it's not 100% coherent,... bear with me :)
What I'm talking about here is changing the reed profile in the length of the reed. Then there's of course changing the shape in the width of the reed, called chamfering,... which is described in the text by Rick Epping which HarpNinja posted.
There are a couple things I want to remind everyone. 1. If you like a certain harp you don't want to change it to much! The more changes you the more different it becomes. Not all the changes are for the good. You hear people talk about harps that have thin reeds. What happens with those harps? 2. Make it as easy as pssible to make the harp you like. I kmow that sounds stupid, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Find a wheel that needs new tires. There are ways of making some production harps work VERY well with only about 4 or 5 hours worth of work! 3. Harpbaker is right! That statement is bigger than most of you know! 4. Someone said harp customizing is easy! WEll yeah after you play for 24 years, become a very advanced player and work on your own harps for 20 years. There's really nothing to it!
1. "You hear people talk about harps that have thin reeds. What happens with those harps?" would you mind to clearify. 2. kinda makes sense. 3. is obvious IMO. Customizing is about feeling what's actually going on in the harp... you gotta be able to play. 4. is nonsensical IMO. You can play 3 years and play better than many people that play 24 years. And people may work on their harps for 20 years... but with wrong technique, approaches they're still at square zero. - ahh ok, got it, it's irony. Took a while to figure out that you were winking your eye while typing it.
Chromaticblues... what about adding some actual substance to the thread. Some facts, techniques about customizing... I see that you obviously want to participate in the discussion. Do you only want to gather info and sell your stuff, or do you also want to share..? Something that isn't obvious or widely know anyway, no mystification... but actually something with substance, that helps us... me.
Correct me if I'm wrong in this assessment,... but it's the impression I got.
The same with all others, Leonid, HarpNinja,... etc. If you participate, please don't say it's easy, the info is everywhere, it's not about the info it's how you do it,... mystification after mystification.
People talk about it not being fair to divulge info of other customizers... and having yourself put in the time so other people should do it too (IMO all egocentric nonsense). Please, this forum is about sharing... it's not about keeping stuff secret.
Chromaticblues, I'd love to work with you on stuff like the vibrating coverplates. Put all my technical knowledge and time into the subject to figure it out. But at some point it get's kinda one sided,... and it really is only me blabbering along while,... it really only starts getting productive when it's a discussion.
And before you come and say that you earn money doing this stuff. So do I,... so does jim, and so do other people that still decide to share their stuff for the good of all. If you want to sell custom harps you can do it locally, for your students, or people on this forum that don't want to put in the time to learn it or to do it themselves (for whatever reason). If you're any good you won't have to fight for your customers.
I for one won't stop. If I figure stuff out,.. I'll share it.
---------- The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2010 11:13 AM
What would happen if you rotated the reeds 90 degrees. Except the reed on each end each reed would have a reed next to it that was lower (to it's left) and higher (to it's right). What would be the optimal arrangement of reeds. Putting holes at the far end of the reed chamber would replace the area between the covers and the reed plates (would that be enough resonance room?)
I'd suggest, for easiest assembly, a series of grooves cut into a solid (no reed slots cut) reed plate and a series of reed slots more similar to those from acordians (a quick look online shows small 'reed plates' of two reeds. You'd actually want an individual reedplate for each reed (although having two might be the way to set up a tremolo harp, or if a discrete comb is set up each chamber could be it's own note). Wait, ah, concertina reeds come one to a reedplate! You use the uncut reed plate to seal the top of the harp.
Image from suttnerconcertinas.com
The comb would look like one of those combs with the holes on the front, only they would be on the front and the back and essentially be hollow until you put the concertina reeds and their mountings into it. (You'd have to adjust the shape a bit to make it easy to mount them.)
I already tested to see if notes will bend when you put the harp at 90 degrees to your mouth. The next question is, since there would be no area above (in fact it wouldn't even need covers) would there be enough sound.
I think I have given you and everyone some good stuff to think about. This is how I feel about everything. If you want to learn it bad enough, and are smart enough you will! (I don't mean you personnaly, I mean in general) I can't tell you what to do because I will influence your path of learning. Everything I said was a reaction to what I read before my post. The truth is there is no clear cut way of doing it. Why do you think Joe Spiers has 3 stages of harps? Becuase there are different approuches. How much do you want to change the harp. What I said about harps with thinner reeds. I'm soory I didn't know that you didn't know that as general rule harps with thinner reeds are easier to bend, but the reeds don't last as long. So with that in mind I mention the more you change the harp the more different it becomes and not always for the better. This is how I look at it: I like Marine Bands. OK they sound great, but can be a pain in the ass due to be leaky and the comb swelling. So instead of reinevnting the wheel. I'm going to try to make the things that bother me about the MB better. So you can seal the comb anyway you like. Thats what I do! I file the corner round and the mouthpiece flush before I take it apart. I file the front almost down to the coverplates. The closer the tip of the reed to the middle of your mouth the easier it is to manipulate the reeds. OK I do not agree with all the people that say comb material doesn' affect the tone. I seal MB's and compare them to stock MB's and they sound different. So I soak the comb in food grade mineral oil for a week. The mineral oil getting absorbed by the comb means it won't swell(at least not like crazy anyway) I sand it flat after I take it out and let it sit for a day. I use a light film of a sealant that can be absorbed by the wood between the comb and coverplates. I use the nails that hold the covers on to put the reedplates back on. They are a little wider I think? I open the backs up and I use clear nail polish to seal the outside of the harp all the way around( that makes the mouthpiece smooth) Use nail polish without formaldihide. OK like I said thats what I do. If you do all that and just gapped and striaghtened the reeds out.You would be surprised how well it works. I emboss the slots a certain way. So I had to figure out how to set the reeds to the way I emboss them. You have to hold the reedplate up to a light and look at the gap. Before you do anything look to see if there are any hazy shady spots. check to see if there is a filing mark there. I use a sharp pointed knife to scrap the reed at that point untill the shaded thing goes away. It makes it easier if you do this first. OK there are many ways of doing the rest of the reed work. People use all sorts of different tools. experiment with that and figure out what works for you. Look at the slot with a magnifying glass before you start and look at it after you do one slot. Look to see what it does to the part of the plate that the reed is closest to. I have a formula that I follow, but I always have to adjust reeds and center reeds. It really is trial and error and that point. USE A MAGNIFYING GLASS! TAKE NOTES! I agree a person can play for 3 years and be better than someone that has played for 24 years.
That harps with thinner reeds were easier to bend I didn't know. But that's some great info to work with.
When you say, 'look at it with a magnifying glass', that sounds very sensible too. I actually plan buying a usb-microscope as soon as I can spare the 50bucks.
Btw. chromaticblues,... I seems as if I was wrong in my assessment. In that case I apologize. It's just that I put all my energy and faith into this forum, trying to get it all out there (with efforts of organizing it all, so it's accessible to the community as a whole). I do this because I wholeheartedly believe, that if everybody knows more, then at the end I will profit from it too.
That's why I may have overreacted to that what I perceive as mystification. But IMO there was just too much of it going on in the beginning of the thread. A thread which was started, exactly to fight that.... Which resulted in a post that showed the frustration.
If I feel that other's are trying to achieve the same (or similar) goals as me,... I'm ready to put even more time into the advancement of the harmonica.
In which case every snippet of information helps. Cause,.. who knows what other people may do with it?
---------- The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2010 12:12 PM
No problem GH! I first started coming to this forum because I wanted to learn and help others if I could. To be honest there aren't many threads that I find to be very educational and when something is interesting to me it usually ends up with people arguing. So foregive me if I'm hesitant in getting to technical. I'm not interested in arguing about what I know or don't know. You know what I mean?
I was told once by a German client that over there you can't just throw up a sign and sell custom harps, the government requires you take some sort of training and actually be qualified before doing the work. Is that true? Perhaps all you need to do is sign up for a class.
I totally reserve the right to limit my comments on customizing. A good friend of mine taught me a lot and I promised not to divulge any of the specifics.
I did, in fact, point out primary sources for embossing, chamfering, and gapping. The resources did a far better job than I could trying to paraphrase them and I intentionally linked resources that included print, pictures, audio, and video.
That's pretty specific and meaty IMO. I think gapping is THE most important technique followed by reed shape, which has been hit on in this thread.
I flat out said that I couldn't add anything to those resources that would make them more clear...not because I don't want to. I just wouldn't know where to begin.
The back issues of Harmonica Work Bench are a great place to start, but I don't think it is my responsibility to personally go through all the content to decide what to copy/paste.
Regarding combs, covers, and other hardware, I don't do anything worth noting. Honestly, other than being anal about flat sanding, I don't care much...I'd rather spend time on the reeds and making them play well for me.
chromaticblues, kinda. However, it's our choice to shape this forum the way we want it. If there's stuff you're interested in just direct the conversation towards it.
harpwrench,... yes this is actually the system/tradition in germany. If you want to do something you have to get an specific education/degree. If you're a master (Meister) you're allowed to do certain stuff (start an enterprise, educate other people)... you have to pass an exam to be recognized as one (Meisterprüfung).
However, with stuff like customizing... there's so little people doing the official job, and the ones I met actually knew less of the matter than I,... that the rules and regulations are loosened a bit.
But at Hohner and Seydel,... yes, that's definitely the case. However, they actually have problems recruiting new workers... so the standards are low (most of their workers can barely bend notes).
It's just a institutionalized way of ensuring a certain degree of quality and professionalism.
HarpNinja, the thing is... it's very frustrating for people that try to learn this stuff. Some people simply don't have the money to take courses for a 1000$ from Buddha or buy some of his custom harps for reverse-engineering. I don't say that I'm one of them (passionately waiting for my Buddha harps), but I think that they could have just as much to contribute to the discussion as the people with the bucks. The only thing left is the Internet and forums as these... And then it seems to be the culture that the people that know the stuff stay vague about the processes/techniques and totally secretive about the detailed work (with very little exceptions like Epping and Oysler).
But I understand, you promised Chris not to share the secrets... I'm not asking you to break this promise.
If you don't mind me asking you questions anyway. Answer them if you can...
What do you mean by reed shape. Is it the profile? Because as we mentioned above, this is actually only possible by taking stuff away (making it thinner). Or are you talking about chamfering?
"followed by reed shape, which has been hit on in this thread."
Let me speculate... it's about the reed profile... and deducing from chromaticblues comment, it's about making the middle of the reed a little thinner or a little more prone to vibration (by whatever method...).
My reasoning is the following... bending notes, i.e. overblowing notes (which is in principle a very similar process) requires the reed to vibrate further towards the front. The problem is,... if most of the vibrating action is going on in the back,... then the reed get stuck fast. So the solution would be to make more of the reed participate in the vibration by flattening and elongating the stress curve (as described in fracture point vid II). Then the reed wouldn't get stuck anymore when vibrating at higher pitches, which makes it easier to bend an overblow up/i.e make the opposing reed vibrate when bending the note down.
I was referring more to the "arc". Flat is where it is at. When you talk about stopping the reed, do you mean it chokes when you play too hard?
My harps have very very small gaps and I don't choke my customs, especially those from other builders. I think a large part of this is due to technique...the reeds being really flat, the seal being air-tight, and how the slots are embossed. However, I don't really know. I mean, I can set up a harp under certain guidelines, but don't always understand why something works.
In general, I will again refer to the vids by Spiers. All he is doing is gapping and it makes the notes play the way they should. It isn't optimal, but the bends and overbends are all there and the reeds aren't going to choke.
If I had to guess, I'd say that it is possible to get a harp to sound and play extremely well if one is really patient enough to perfect their gaps and the arc in their reeds...and nothing else. The other stuff is often gravy, IMHO. It will make the harp better, but I wonder if it sort of minimizes the ill effect of a mis-set reed. Also, many mods are more about the cover plates and combs and not really about the reed plates.
I can't overstate, though, that many people understand the physics better than I do, can be more efficient at modding a harp, and do a lot more than I know of. I typically try to limit my experimenting to things I get the theory behind. There is surely extra stuff that I don't do.
No GH I don't do that with reeds. There are two ways of making a reed more eficient in the slot. You can make the reed wider, but that will make the reed thinner. It will bend a little easier maybe, if so it may decrease reed life span also. The other way is to emboss the slot, but then the slot that the reed goes thru is thinner. That theoretically will make the harp easier to bend, but you'll lose volume. I haven't found that to be true. I would suggest the embossing route myself. Remember what I said about the magnifying glass and check the shape of the slot. The slot is wider at the top so you got to get the reed closer. On a previous post I mentioned two ways of setting reeds. One for a unmodified slot one for a modified slot. You'll figure it out. Just make sure the tip of the reed is the last part to go thru.
I occasionally post on other forums but have only lurked here and thought this would be a good time to jump in.
@GH I get the sense that we are like minded. We've moved beyond being hacks and are now competent modding our harps but can't get to the next level. Maybe we'll make a good one but have difficulty replicating it next time 'round. Or, get one that's great on nine holes out of ten.
Neither of us wants to brow beat someone for info but are appreciative when folks share their knowledge. While not needing the specifics of how someone does a particular technique we would like some guiding principles to know if we're at least on track.
For me, I'd most like to improve the response of the bottom three holes (especially Blow notes) but I'm quite happy with Holes 4-10.
Well, let's think out loud together and figure this out. Here are my musings which may reveal nothing about anything but I'll give it a shot.
For starters Mr. Spiers has given us a clue: the biggest factor in building a great harp has been talked about in this forum but the post(s) were not by the establihed builders. So, don't look for something that Joe or Chris has said. (Like hunting for Easter eggs; let me know if you find it).
Second, HarpNinja stated that flat reed are what you should strive for. And yet, we know the reed tip must have some gap to allow air to get past it.
I believe a third person talked about supporting most of the reed with a feeler gauge and using their fingernail to push the reed down into the slot near the rivet pad.
I take all these last two points to mean that arcing with a gentle curve throughout the reeds length, or just at the tip is poor practice. Arcing, if anywhere, is perhaps best done close to the rivet end.
I tried the method described above and early tests are promising. (How many times I've thought that I don't know). Pressing the reed down into the slot gives a pronounced bend of maybe 15 degrees from the plate. It looks radical but after you remove any further curvature along the length of the reed you can regap quite low. I've only done Holes 1-3 on one harp so again, this is premature but it might be a place to start.
Reading through the link about accordions and concertinas was also interesting. If I understand correctly, accordions have tighter slots compared to concertinas when looking at the non-rivet side of their reedplates. This produces a more efficient use air and a more harmonically complex tone. Maybe we should give more attention to embossing the other side of the reedplate. As the reed swings through the plate it is effectively shortened so maybe extra heavy embossing on the tip of this non-rivet side?
One last thing. I've known about Rick Epping's chamfering since he first posted it. I tried it. I hated doing it. It is the one technique I didn't have patience for and quickly abandoned it. Also, although Rick is a pro I wasn't aware if other top builders using the tchnique so I was hoping to get away with not having to do it. With HarpNinja's endorsement of the technique I'll have to try it again. Instead of removing material however I'll simply flatten down the reed's edge to break that sharp 90 degrees. I'll 'emboss' the reed if you will.
Mrverylongname hit it on the head! Mr.VLN said: REED RESPONSIVNESS. Thats what its all about. You try to seal a harp to make it air tight so the air won't be lost from the objective. Which is to get the reed moving. Once the reed gets moving your golden. All the ranting and raving that BQBob does about not playing to heard and breath control really matters when a harp works right. I know alot of you guys don't get what he's talking about because your harps aren't effiecent enough to play that way. I didn't reallize this untill I was capable of making all my harps work right. Once you have good harps that are consistant it opens a whole new world of playing harp! Plus I'm getting old. Huffin and puffin just makes me tired!
While I don't think customizers necessarily follow Rick's chamfering or embossing advice to the letter, I think there is some good info there. To be honest, I haven't worked with that much.
chromaticblues, what kind of tool do you use for embossing?
i move my reeds away from the slot with a reed wrench and emboss the entire slot with a socket wrench. this way i don't mess with the reed gap- i save it for later. this way is time consuming and you run the risk of loosening the rivet end but i take that chance because you can always tap the rivet tight.
i don't know of anyone who does it my way. but, it works for me. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
MP, when I do get time to work on harps, I do it the same way as you. I made a reedwrench out of the brass of an old reedplate, and I swing the reeds to the side. I use some of my small archaeological excavation tools to do the embossing. That's really the best way to do embossing that I've found. ---------- -------------------------------------- View my videos on YouTube!"
While just randomly reading some older posts... I stumbled upon once of an older member called Preston mentionning some of his experiments on arching for overdraws... here's his post:
" Well guys, if anybody is interested, I have some info on the overdraw. Like I said when I started this post, I was having trouble with the overdraws; being able to produce one, but it sounded like crap.
Anyway, I have done some experimenting, and I think it is the gap AND arcing that makes the biggest difference. I sat down one weekend and decided I was going to learn how to arc the reeds properly.
I probably spent a combined 8 hours on one harp trying to get it perfect. Arc and gap a reed and then put the harp back together to test it, then take it apart to make more adjustments, etc, etc. The finished product was a harp with TIGHT gaps, and overdraws like a dream. I'm talkin' little or no effort here, folks!
On a side note: I didn't notice that arcing made overblowing any easier. I got the same results on my overblows as I do when I narrow the gap on an UNarced reed. (Keep in mind that this is MY arcing: I'm an amatuer. It may be a different story if you were to buy a customized harp from a professional.) "
There wasn't any more info in that thread. This is definitely worth experimenting with.
I'm in the works of making a video of the phyiscs behind reed vibration. I'll get to all the good points in this thread after that,.. this is just something which has to come first.
it just seemed to me to be too much work to do for a sane person. - --just re-read my post. "this way i don't mess with the reed gap- i save it for later."
true, i like to mess up the slot first, before i ruin the reed.:)------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
@pharpo Yes A .002" feeler gauge works good for removing burs and for plinky the reed after you think your done setting it. I just now thought about answering your post because I'm cleaning up some tuning scratches with a razor blade. I put my .002 feeler gauge under the reed and lightly scrap the side of the reed untill I can't see anything when holding the reedplate up to the light. The razor works better than the knife.
