GermanHarpist
1879 posts
Nov 26, 2010
3:35 PM
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There was a thread started about Reverse-Engineering a Filisko Harp. Although in essence very interesting it quickly turned into a netiquette nightmare. So I'll try to write down all the useful info I remember:
First off the things mentioned of the harp (in the order as I remember):
-Reeds were gapped very low and totally straight.
-The coverplate (or reedplate?) was not straight, but in a slope and thinner at the high holes.
-The reeds had some kind of nail polish/wax under the rivet pad. As if they were taken off and then put back on again with some sealant.
-It had the original comb
-It still had nails and no screws.
-The reedplates were connected weirdly (I didn't understand exactly how though).
Did I forget something?
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
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conjob
102 posts
Nov 26, 2010
3:38 PM
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star on the coverplate like a prewar marine band
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GermanHarpist
1880 posts
Nov 26, 2010
3:53 PM
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And now, my explanations of... why?
DISCLAIMER - I like to understand the processes of how the harp works before I start working on the harp... I'm no customizer and I haven't talked to any customizer about this stuff. So no guarantee of it being correct... it's more like educated guesses. So take it for what it's worth.
First off, the reeds being gapped very low. Well,... the problem of a reed getting stuck, is quite simple. It hasn't reached the necessary speed once it's inside the slot and it simply get's stuck. However if the reed slot (and everything else) is very airtight, (and the gap is nicely embossed) then most all the air is used to accelerate the reed. Thus you don't need to gap it very wide.
The sealant under the reed simply makes it more airtight. Maybe has some other purpose too.
It had the original comb. Having soft pear wood comb doesn't mean it's bad. If you have belief/opinion that the material of the comb has an effect,... well then the very soft comb of the MB definitely has an effect (my MB with acryl comb sounds a lot harsher...).
It had nail instead of screws. Well,... screws and nails are really quite different. And IMO they have the potential of having a big effect. Especially for the vibration of the coverplates.
The thing is as follows. The coverplates have a big impact on the sound, not only because of the openings (which dictate projection), but also because of the vibration of themselves (just blow into a harp and you can feel the vibration on your fingers and lips).
Now the more inner tension in the coverplates, the more these vibrations are suppressed. Having four screws instead of two definitely makes a huge difference (that's why most customizers only use two at the front on each side). And having nails instead of screws again makes a big difference. This has two reasons: for one screws are easily over tightened which creates inner tensions. To add to that, screws have a much bigger surface than nails (i.e. the surface of the nut and the bolt).
The nail has only a minimal surface and it can only be tightened as strong to the reedplate and comb as the retetnion strength of the wood (which is rather soft) and the reedplate. This retention strength diminishes every time you take the coverplates off and back on again.
To get the maximal vibration out of the coverplates, they should be fastened to the rest of the harp with the least amount of inner tensions (and any other thing that reduces it's vibration) as possible. Thus nails IMO are actually quite optimal.
Now to the point of the coverplates not being totally straight. I've seen a harp of harponline.de once where they actually bent the coverplate outwards a bit at the lower notes (similar to the 1847 LF and lower) so that the reeds don't rattle. They did it by cutting into the coverplate slightly and bending it up. They did quite a good job and it looked nice. I've never seen the coverplates being bend downwards towards the higher draw notes.
Ok, that's it as far as I remember.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2010 4:26 PM
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GermanHarpist
1881 posts
Nov 26, 2010
3:55 PM
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"star on the coverplate like a prewar marine band "
yup, while seeming like new cover plates...
Well, either he uses old stock coverplates/harps. Or he stamps it himself, which would make it a purely aesthetic thing.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
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chromaticblues
329 posts
Nov 26, 2010
3:57 PM
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The one thing he neglected to say is wheather it played well or not? Isn't that what its all about? The thing that puzzles me is why so many people that are interested in the same thing try to find things to argue about??
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GermanHarpist
1882 posts
Nov 26, 2010
4:04 PM
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He actually did say that it played very well. I think the phrasing was that it held up to his expectations.
"...try to find things to argue about??"
Fighting is easy. Trying to get along needs effort.
Communicating on the internet is different than communicating in real life. And just like all social norms netiquette has to be learned...
Let's please try to stay on topic though.... :)
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2010 4:21 PM
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chromaticblues
330 posts
Nov 26, 2010
4:12 PM
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GermanHarpist I don't understand how only one screw on each side is better than two? I would think its the other way around. I'm just thinking that the better the coverplates are fastened the more all the parts vibrate as one unit. I think if any of the sections of the harp aren't tightly fastened this is where the vibrations would get changed somehow. I'm just thinking out loud here.
I do like using nails though. I know thats not cool these days, but its easier and there are ways of making a very air tight harp with nails
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GermanHarpist
1883 posts
Nov 26, 2010
4:20 PM
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Hmmm... I'll do a little experimenting tomorrow. It's already kinda late. But it's definitely a valid point.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
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chromaticblues
331 posts
Nov 26, 2010
4:27 PM
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@GermanHarpist I do it with 2-56 bolts without nuts. I don't know why, but I think the nuts (like the ones on SP 20's) do dampen the vibrations somehow?
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nacoran
3309 posts
Nov 26, 2010
5:42 PM
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I've been working on a epic post asking all sorts of crazy what if questions, trying to get it all in some sort of logical order, but I thought I'd drop this in here because GH mentioned covers that weren't totally straight.
I've been thinking about Winslow Yerxa's discreet comb, and a couple other harps that have attempted to go fully chromatic. The theory is that you can bend each reed and get all the notes more easily with it, and the people who have commented on it say it does that, but that they don't like how thick the comb is. That got me thinking about how to make a harp as thin as possible. The first thought I had was the covers. Turbo Harps are fatter on the bottom end and thinner on the top end. That seems like the first logical step.
The next step would be to shape the comb the same way. Of course, this would cause all sorts of problem with the swing of the reed. The top and bottom reeds wouldn't be perpendicular anymore. How would that effect how they interact? That might be interesting to find out, but it really doesn't have a lot to do with how thin you can make the comb, because there is a next step that can correct for that- but it involves custom reed plates. What happens if, on this tapering harp, you strap on reed plates that have custom cut reed slots that aren't cut straight perpendicular to the surface, but at an angle so that the reed, even strapped to a comb, is still lined up with the other reed (the angle would be the opposite on the other reed plate). In addition to making the upper end of the harp much thinner this opens up another opportunity for thinning the harp, because now, relative to the covers at least, the reeds aren't swinging straight up and down. They are swinging at an angle relative to the covers which means they have even more room to swing. We can lower the covers even more!
But how far can we rotate that reed? Well, anything beyond 90 degrees and we've just managed to flip the reeds over. Unless we want to cut the reed plate into pieces the reed plate thickness is going to limit us. We have to keep the slot viable. Maybe only a few degrees, maybe all the way to 45 degrees so the front of our harmonica looks like a bunch of diamonds instead of a row of squares. The critical point would seem to be when the reed starts interfering with the the slot of the next reed over. We could, of course, get supper thin by extending the distance between the holes far enough so the reeds can swing freely sideways without hitting the next reed. Would we have to shape the insides of our mouths differently do get bends?
Ok, lets say we keep it kind of similar to the harmonica we are used to and only go a few degrees. How else can we put our harp on a diet? Well, our top and bottom reeds swing from different ends. Someone in another thread (Jim?) commented on how this could effect the rattle room you need. He said something about putting fat covers only on top. You could actually make your covers taper both front to back (thin in front fat in back on top, fat in front and thin the back on the bottom) and thicker at the low end and thinner at the high end, combined with the taper of the comb.
Make the holes round so you don't get seasick looking at them. If the goal is to make a really thin harp, this might work. If you combine it with a discrete comb maybe you get a normal thickness harmonica again. I haven't got a close look at a discrete comb. My understanding is that it just isolates the two reeds. Again though, we have the fact that the matching reeds are riveted at opposite ends of the slot. What if you take advantage of that and slant the divider between the two chambers to give each reed as much room as possible at the end it is swinging freely at (keeping in mind we can't completely block the flow of air without really screwing things up.) You might be able to taper the comb front to back too. You'd have to keep both the top and bottom edge smooth but you could run the slop from opposite corners, from thickest at the back on the top down to lower on the front top at the high end. You'd do the opposite on the bottom of the comb, and again, the angle you cut the slot and the reed chamber would have to be adjusted to keep the reeds running true. You can take this to even bendier or fragmented reed plate places, but then you are starting to talk crazy. :)
Well, that's my crazy, twisted harmonica (kind of literally) idea for the night. I wish I had one of those 3-D printers
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Nate
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MrVerylongusername
1380 posts
Nov 26, 2010
6:12 PM
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I found the original premise of the thread very interesting.
Once it became obvious it was heading for a lock and delete job I saved a web archive for my future reference. I have all the comments up until Hetrick announced he was done with the forum.
I will happily repost the thread opener verbatim if it is OK by the mods to do so. I do not want to do anything provocative, but there was some interesting information and speculation before things got silly.
*Edit* I see that Hetrick has posted exactly the same set of observations on Harp-L so those who subscribe can find them there. Let's hope the thread stays civil there
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2010 6:53 PM
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MrVerylongusername
1381 posts
Nov 26, 2010
6:24 PM
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One thing that I read which was very interesting (and wasn't in my save version) was about reed profiles - something along the lines of Filisko uses an axe shaped (?) reed profile as opposed to the usual skate ramp (?) profile. Was this about reed curvature or about the milling on the reed? "axe shaped" - does that mean \_/ with hard angles?
I dunno who posted this and whether they can still post here, but if they can I'd like to hear some elaboration on that point.
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HarpNinja
794 posts
Nov 26, 2010
7:00 PM
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I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade, and there are for sure pros on this forum who know more, but most the questions being asked here are answered in various places, including this website, Harp-L, and other harp sites.
The idea that knowing all this and doing all this to harps was/is a very valid point. Even with the know how, it is a huge pain in the rear to do all the work.
Anyways, I personally feel that knowing all the information and copying it on a harp won't get you too far as there is just as much trial and error in setting up a harp as science. Yes, I am sure many characteristics can be measured, but in general, it is always a feel thing.
Specifically, what works one time may not the next and the trouble shooting piece, and the strategies to attempt a remedy, is where the real professionalism is, IMHO.
To piggy back off the Manji thread where the 3 draw is an issue, I would wager that gapping is still 90% of the solution. In fact, gapping is probably the biggest factor in making a harp awesome. Finding the sweet spot can be a pain, though!
Finally, techniques are often dependent on desired results. If one is trying to manipulate the tone of a harp, its ability to overblow, how it sounds for blues, etc, makes a difference. Therefore, the best "custom" harps are then custom in multiple aspects and not setup the same for everyone.
The harp in question probably has a level of work on it that is pretty standard for a Filisko, BUT there might have been mods that aren't standard (or mods not used). I don't know...but I do know, having purchased customs, made customs for myself, and having tried others' customs, harps by the same builder for different people for sure have differences.
One reason why I am so into Buddha harps is that Chris gets how I play and attack a note, etc. That doesn't mean it is the right way or even good, but he is an influence of mine and he gets that.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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Buddha
2703 posts
Nov 26, 2010
7:04 PM
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Joe puts the star on the bottom cover for special players. If you have one of his harps and they have the star then you know he put special effort into it.
I know what Joe does to harps but I'm not going to say so please do not bother asking. You will find the same things in Sleigh, Gordon, Harrison and my harps as we all learn from the same people.
As for the comb, some people like the old pear wood combs. One thing is certain, this harp was not made for Hentrick. Joe doesn't mill his own combs, he hires somebody to make them for him.
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"Music in the soul can be heard by the universe." - Lao Tzu
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2010 7:06 PM
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ZackPomerleau
1319 posts
Nov 26, 2010
7:08 PM
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Who cares what he did/does? Just play them, seriously! And, if you really care to know, you're not going to get anywhere just trying to figure it out (especially considering he won't tell you). Take lessons from someone like Chris, or spend a long time doing it yourself, or do both.
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MP
1050 posts
Nov 26, 2010
7:08 PM
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MVLUN that was me.
as for the star on the cover-plate, it is a five point and not the six point star of the pre-war models. i've seen them a little off center which suggests they are stamped.
-EDIT Buddha beat me to it.---------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2010 7:09 PM
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chromaticblues
333 posts
Nov 26, 2010
7:46 PM
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@harp ninja The 3 draw bend on the Manji is not as easy to sustain as a good hohner. It isn't just gapping. The reed dimension is different and reacts different. I can make both work very well, but it is more time consuming to get the three draw just right on a Manji. It still isn't the same. Now having said that. After embossing and setting the reeds it is a very good harp! One of the best! I play MB's and its just different.
Mike I do agree that anyone with enough experience scrounging around on the internet can find most or all the answers to the questions he had.
Zack touched on someting I felt from the start of his thread. He was trying to get people to tell him how to customize harps instead of doing the hard work or paying someone to show him. I don't know, but thats what it seemed.
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HarpNinja
795 posts
Nov 26, 2010
8:41 PM
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My Manji harps play great...same effort as a MB and the same feel. Oddly enough, that's the only place on the harp they feel the same. I am comparing my Manji's to Buddha harps in the same or similar keys.
In fact, working on a G between posts, I was thrilled that it had the same ring as my Low F from Buddha...
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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ZackPomerleau
1320 posts
Nov 26, 2010
11:46 PM
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Chromatic, I had that vibe, myself. I see it a lot on guitar forums and drum forums, too. The equipment doesn't make the performer, it can only limit the performer. At some point you want something that can take your skill and allow to get better, whilst challenging you in a legitimate way. But, he's selling harps now, so maybe that's why he wanted to know?
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5F6H
406 posts
Nov 27, 2010
2:21 AM
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@ZAck "But, he's selling harps now, so maybe that's why he wanted to know?"
Well, that is one way that it could have & indeed was perceived, but since the original thread, Hetrick & I have been in touch. I understand now that he was simply motivated by interest/curiosity...he felt that the resistance he met (for which I have to admit to being partly to blame) was undeserved, so he came out fighting.
I wish him every successs in his professional endeavors, but I think we all already know that it's unlikely to affect demand on Filisko harps.
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walterharp
495 posts
Nov 27, 2010
8:58 AM
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it is an interesting duality.
should people give away their trade secrets?
in the harp amp world, there seems to be mostly a courteous understanding where people do not post the specifics of custom amp circuits online. any number of people could simply open up the amp, and figure out the specifics of the circuit and post it, but they generally don't out of respect for the creator of the amp.
Harrision harmonicas would be crazy not to patent their innovations of the brad, you can bet your bottom dollar that the major harp companies are paying very close attention to what goes into making that harp at a commercial level.
So, it does make a bit of sense that the customizers who spend many many hours perfecting their craft and figuring out the little tricks are a bit hesitant to give out too much information, even if most people would never take the time to use that information.
This is not a statement of whether it is wrong or right, just an observation of the culture around harmonicas, especially when business is involved
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arzajac
396 posts
Nov 27, 2010
12:08 PM
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Is the Filisko method patented?
That's what patents are for. The idea of protecting one's innovations through a small community's sense of guilt (or courtesy) is problematic to say the least.
Patents are meant to protect the inventor so that the idea can be implemented and shown to the public. Without a patent, an inventor may chose to not release their work for reasons of not wanting others to copy their work.
The practical side of patents is that nobody is going to sue you for copying someone else's invention unless you are making money from it.
That's a practical legal point of view. What about an ethical point of view? Is it unethical to share the inner workings of a Filisko harp to everyone?
I dunno. Will doing that take business away from customizers? I doubt it.
Should that knowledge only be shared between certain people? For example, if you buy a Filisko harp, does that give you the right to take it apart and learn from it but only for yourself? Do you need to get the nod from somebody to share that information with others?
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Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 12:09 PM
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eharp
967 posts
Nov 27, 2010
12:49 PM
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modern blues law??
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nacoran
3313 posts
Nov 27, 2010
1:07 PM
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My crazy ideas are all attribution only. You can use them for free as long as you give me credit! And as long as you realize by using them the men in the white coats may come looking for you too. :)
Arzajac, you've got a point. The question becomes a matter of economics. Does a customizer, who may do 15 different things that someone could copy, have enough overhead to take each one of those through the patent process? My aunt patented something. Even doing it as cheap as she could it cost her a couple grand. Then you have to have a war chest big enough so people realistically expect that you have the resources to sue for infringement.
So you have some people hoarding intellectual secrets to keep them proprietary and others giving them away. If you give them away it doesn't mean you don't get anything from them. If you invent something innovative and make sure you at least get credit for it you can use that for publicity. Then, if you've got something to sell you have a wider audience. (For instance, Adam's videos brought me to this site. That got me to his show (2 tickets) where I bought albums (2) and his book. Later I bought the Nat Riddles album when Adam ran a special on it, and Adam's new album online (and Brandon's). I'm a happy customer, Adam gets some sales and I learn all sorts of great harmonica info! Sharing information about customizing probably helps customizers sales, but it also opens the door to new competition.
So, you can patent, keep proprietary, or open source it. Customers certainly benefit the most from open source, patenting is expensive and proprietary information eventually gets out (at least the parts that show up in the product. We may never know how a particular customizer gets something just right, but we can look at what it looks like when it is just right and try to figure out how he did it or find another way to do it.
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Nate
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LIP RIPPER
334 posts
Nov 27, 2010
2:16 PM
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Nate you are crazy but you don't need me to tell you. By the way, that's not an insult or personal attack.
The above thoughts make me wonder. Like Chris stated, the guys on top basically do the same improvements but it makes me wonder what else is in there. One can go two different directions and end up in the same place.
LR
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tmf714
365 posts
Nov 27, 2010
2:30 PM
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I own 2 Filisko harps-I know Joe's process and what he does to get his harps to the Filisko bechmark.
Devulging the innerworkings to mere mortals would do nothing-without the personal dedication,years of research and development,and the ability to make a perfect instrument,the lay person would attain nothing.
Joe,Richard and Jimmy's dedication is above reproach-these guys have been doing this longer than most of us have been playing. Thinking there is a shortcut to learning the Filisko process is an exercise in futility.
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 2:30 PM
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GermanHarpist
1886 posts
Nov 27, 2010
3:16 PM
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Not sharing information is of short term advantage for a few. Sharing the information helps us all.
All over the world people have different abilities and resources. When we start sharing information new information is created.
This whole attitude of keeping things secret made economic sense before the times of the Internet, but today it doesn't anymore.
It's obvious why, of all the harmonica sites on the internet, Adam's is the biggest... he decided to 'give it all away'. And what does this result to.. a huge boom of harmonica worldwide. Every random harmonica player, in France, Luxembourg, Germany, Denmark, Poland,... I've ever talked to has heard and mostly learned a great deal from Adam Gussow. He's now without a doubt the most prolific and influential harmonica teacher of all times.
We all have different resources and abilities. If we combine that, there's a lot we can achieve, as a community... new techniques, methods, approaches. If we hide all that we know where it's going to lead us... pretty much to the same place we're at right now. If we start sharing stuff,... who knows where it's going to lead us..?
Interested to find out?
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 4:32 PM
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mercedesrules
71 posts
Nov 27, 2010
3:37 PM
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....."For example, if you buy a Filisko harp, does that give you the right to take it apart and learn from it but only for yourself? Do you need to get the nod from somebody to share that information with others?" - (arzajac)
.....No one will be surprised that I have an opinion about so-called "intellectual property" (IP). ;) Yes, there is such a thing and, yes, it is fine for the original owner to protect it however he can with his own resources. OTOH, I am uncomfortable with taxing granny to help a harp mechanic, author, metal band or movie writer protect his published IP. One idea would be for the harp magician to make the purchaser sign a contract to not divulge the improvements for some time period.
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5F6H
412 posts
Nov 27, 2010
3:45 PM
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Germanharpist, I agree with your attitude on sharing...I share it wholeheartedly. But this thread started with respect to Filisko, who is so inundated with work that he can cherry pick his clients...there are the other Filisko guild builders (& others), all of whom derive income from customising. Some have freely shared & published tips & hints. I'm not so sure that "secrecy" as such is the issue...as much as the fact that this is their job of work.
If you were an accountant, how would you react to being stopped in the grocery store by self-employed tradesmen looking for you to help them with their tax returns on the spot?
If you were a chef, how would you like every other person you met to grill you for your "perfect roast potato" recipe?
You would put it in a book & charge for it, or you would run classes & charge for it...if you were feeling inclined & had the time you might share for free ...but you might well grow to resent everybody you meet feeling that you "owe" them what it has taken you years to perfect.
Even then, as TMF714 points out, not everyone given the same information would achieve the same standard...these guys make their income from the fact that guys cannot, or will not develop the expertise themselves.
Walterharp made a very good point with respect to the harpamp builders. I can afford to share whatever I like because it's not my primary source of income, if it was, I would have to start charging...even now I'm seriously considering a fixed consultation fee/deposit due to some folks booking an evening/weekend slot & then failing to appear. I don't see the harp customising business as being any different.
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GermanHarpist
1887 posts
Nov 27, 2010
3:59 PM
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Now that people put up their stuff/info on the internet for free... does it mean that less people visit their classes? Quite the contrary. From a purely economic point of view there is no better advertisement then to put it up for free. Your classes will be overrun by people that want you to explain it to them in person.
User dedication and loyalty are the most valuable things in our economy today. Yes, it needs different and innovative approaches of doing business, but the rewards are far greater.
If Adam would ask the members of this forum for some donations to, let's say, having a professional state of the art website and forum designed (or running a harmonica wiki which costs about 100$ a month). Do you think he would have any problems gathering that money? I know that my donations would be generous.
It's not always the case that divulging information is the economiacally best solution. But mostly it is, and customizing harmonicas is no exception to that... I think we established that the top customizers wouldn't lose any business... and it would advance the science a lot. Everybody wins.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 4:36 PM
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MP
1055 posts
Nov 27, 2010
4:10 PM
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"For example, if you buy a Filisko harp, does that give you the right to take it apart and learn from it but only for yourself? Do you need to get a nod from somebody to share that information with others?" -(arzajac)
well, first off, Filisko has to like or respect you enough to build a harp for you. so...it's not kosher.
but, just looking inside and around a custom harp doesn't tell you much. even if you work on your own harps there are things you won't grok at all.
iv'e looked at filikos and sleighs and they look like plain old harps to me with only few obvious mods.
like you can see a little shine from the embossing, top to bottom on every reed, but how did he do it?.
there is beeswax on the seats of the reeds, but how was it applied?.
the comb appears to be sealed with beeswax but how?
-
the gapping is very close and has an uncanny regulation from reed to reed. it's almost machine like and kind of beautiful IMO.
now, if you bought a custom from a guy who sells to the general public, i think it's your harp and you can take it apart(careful you don't ruin it cuz you probably will) and try to reverse-engineer it and tell what you know, or think you know, from mere observation.
i mean, you can watch a surgical proceedure but it won't get you far in doctoring.
you gotta have the touch and the tools and the tuners and lots of experience, but even that may not be enough to reverse-engineer a custom harp.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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GermanHarpist
1888 posts
Nov 27, 2010
5:03 PM
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This discussion is futile as we're way on the road of finding it out for ourselves anyway.
It's the internet... it's why we're here.
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
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GermanHarpist
1890 posts
Nov 27, 2010
5:19 PM
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Mr.VerylongUsername... maybe that's the moment where you might post the interesting information of the deleted thread, so that we can continue with the substance.
HarpNinja,... if the information can be found on the internet anyway, why not post it? I looked for it on the different websites.. and didn't find the answers. I don't know how far your bond of secrecy goes, but it would be very kind of you to enlighten us as far as possible. If it's only about posting a link or citing information of another website/archive,.. where's the harm?
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 5:21 PM
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Leonid
94 posts
Nov 27, 2010
5:35 PM
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Guys I am saying it again. There are no secrets. All customization is trying to achieve is to minimise air loss. That's it.
It is all due to the skill of customiser to make embossing as tight as possible.
Some people change the shape of reeds but I personally like my reeds flat.
There is no voodoo magic involved :)
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MrVerylongusername
1382 posts
Nov 27, 2010
5:54 PM
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Wrong.
It's about increasing the reed response.
Some of that is about minimising air loss, but some of it is about resonance and sympathetic vibration. It is about how the reeds oscillate and how that oscillation is sustained. It is about the laminar airflow and separation vortices that start the reed vibrating in the first place. It is about treating the reeds to reduce stresses caused by the rolling/milling process, making reeds last longer.
If it was as simple as reducing air loss, then ask yourself what about the big gaping hole in the system that is the partner reed?
I am convinced the secret to a good harp is understanding the physics involved: the pressure differences, the airflow, the reed-pair interaction and the reed flexion.
I don't claim to have the answers, I'm still trying to understand the physics.
I suspect the genius of Filisko is in the reed profiles that were discussed.
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MrVerylongusername
1383 posts
Nov 27, 2010
5:58 PM
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@Germanharpist
Apologies for the long post, but here's the old thread to the point at which it degenerated.
"Hetrick
2 posts
Nov 24, 2010
10:19 PM Ok guys I got a Filisko tonight, key of D. It definitely lives up to its reputation. But I noticed several interesting things about it. Would love any insight about this.
First, I noticed that there is a star stamped in the middle of the bottom plate. I was under the impression that only pre-war harps had this star. The plates looked brand new so maybe he stamps them?
2nd, no screws in the reed plates at all! just plain old nails.
3rd. He shapes the bottom plate so that it is closer at the high holes. I have no clue how he does this. it's like the plate is on a downhill slope.
4th. He puts a screw at the front of the reed plates, no in the middle or two like the deluxes.
5th. Gapping---did not impress me or match what I have learned. I flatten the reed and curl up just the end. His were just straight flat with just a slight gap--almost looked like factory gapping.
6th, there are two large holes at the end of each reed plate, like a deluxe, but he does not use them.
7th, I heard he mills his own combs, but I could see nail holes in the comb, appears to be original.
8th...most curious, I noticed a slight discoloration around the rivet end of each reed. I scraped at it, it appears to be beeswax or some kind of resin. It surrounds the rivet end and goes up a little bit to the bottom part of the reed. It almost looks as if he puts the resin/wax down on the plate and then puts the reeds on! Does he rivet his own reeds?
Lots of questions! Would love discussion on this.
Baker
83 posts
Nov 25, 2010
5:05 AM I'm no expert but do some work on my own harps. From what I understand you want the reeds as straight as possible. I have also heard of people putting wax over the rivet ends of the reeds to reduce "torsional vibrations" – is that right? – which can cause squeeling when overblowing?
All marine band reed plates have large holes where the cover plate screws would go, even when they are just nailed together.
I imagine he removes the reeds in order to sand the reed plates flat (or down hill) before reattaching them.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.
I don't own any custom harmonicas but have seen pics and have always wondered why most of the top customisers only use two cover plate screws at the front of the harmonica (like the Manji). Is it just not necessary to put ones in at the back or is there actually an advantage?
Last Edited on 25-Nov-2010 7:53 AM
eharp
954 posts
Nov 25, 2010
6:45 AM it seems many of the other customizers go further than joe with the work; using screws instead of nails as an example.
could it be that joe has others doing some of his work or that he gives different attention depending on the client?
GermanHarpist
1869 posts
Nov 25, 2010
7:28 AM Nails make a lot of sense from a physical point of view. Of the several ways of how the coverplates have an impact on the sound, a major one is how they are fastened to the rest of the harp. What you want is coverplates that vibrate easily and freely and thus contribute a lot to the quality of the sound. Screws have two drawbacks. 1. They have a big surface, that is the bottom of the crew or the nut, compared to tiny surface of the nail. 2. They are easily fastened too strong. Nails can only be fastened to a certain point, which is the retention strength of the nail in the reedplates, comb. Which is reduced every time you take the coverplates off and put them back on again.
So if you want the coverplates to have an effect on the sound and amplify it, by it's own vibration, the aim is to reduce the inner tension as much as possible and to only fasten it to the reedplates strong enough that the vibrations are transmitted cleanly.
This is btw. the same reason that many cusotmisers today only use one screw instead of two per side.. the less tension - the freer the coverplates can vibrate - the better.
I'll get to the other points later. But I have to eat first.
Hetrick, on a personal note (in case you're Hetrick from Hetrick Harmonica). We may have gotten off on the wrong foot, I apologize for the flippant remarks. It may be connected to my personal situation. I was operated a week ago and I'm still in pain. This may result in some social barriers being overridden from time to time... Please refer to my first email on how the feedback should have been phrased correctly. Cheers :)
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The MBH thread-thread thread!
Last Edited on 25-Nov-2010 8:14 AM
saregapadanisa
281 posts
Nov 25, 2010
7:51 AM GH, I have a hard time figuring out what coverplates' vibration could be, considering how we hold our harps. Ever tried to put your finger on a tuning fork ?
Remember "Resonance is everything" ? :o)
Hope you'll get better quick.
@Hetrick, I'll do my personal footnote too (refering to the same thread GH is speaking of) : yours is a great and enlighting post. Thanks."
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Leonid
95 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:04 PM
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Common man, get real and stop overcomplicate things.
Listen to yourself, what you saying is I don't know how to do it but you are not doing it right.
I already mentioned that I have harps from Filisco, Brendan, Sleigh and Pat Missin. They are fantastic instruments but all the same. We are talking about harmonicas not space shuttles.
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MrVerylongusername
1384 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:09 PM
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I'm not overcomplicating things - they are already complicated. Do you understand what makes a harmonica reed vibrate. I do. It really isn't as simple as it would seem.
I didn't say you weren't doing it right - I implied that reducing air leakage is clearly only a part of the story.
If gapping, embossing, flat sanding etc... (common knowledge) were all there was to it why aren't all 'custom' harps as good as the top end guys?
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 6:22 PM
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harpdude61
499 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:10 PM
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Can someone find me the seven secret herbs and spices blend for Kentucky Fried Chicken? I hear that only two people in the world have access to the vault that holds the paper with the hand written recipe.
My point is how do we decide what info should be public knowledge?
About the star. I don't get it. Buddha puts the same efforts into the harps of the average Joe and the average pro.
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chromaticblues
336 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:23 PM
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Its not VooDoo. Its HooDoo! Air tightness increases responsiveness when the reed is set correctly. There is alot more to it than you think. If you make one change there is a domino effect. I've heard of many ways that people do it. If we do get into this one problem we will run into (because I've already been through this) is the people that are more likely to give thier 2 cents is worth a grain of salt! If anybody really wants to know. Just do it! Get a magnifying glass and look at the reeds that work well and take notes. Then mess around with the reed and see what makes it better and what makes it worse. Take notes so you don't have to learn the same thing over and over. I'll give everybody this. The people that say they like to set the reeds straight are right. The people that push the reed down in front of the rivet straighten it then curl it up just slightly at the end are also right. How can that be?
What does tip scooping do? where should you do it. One person involved in this discussion has stated he does this to his harps. Maybe he can shed some light on that. I won't say who because I don't know who wants to say what!
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Leonid
96 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:24 PM
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Realy guys, customising is EASY!!! Don't put off by some well knows known names or discussions about physics and voodoo magic involved.
I do make my own harps, and they are great. Few guys from the forum tried it. I don't make them for the general public simply because I will have no time for practice.
My point is, learn to do it yourself and stop giving your hard earned money away.
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MrVerylongusername
1386 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:30 PM
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@ Harpdude61
WE don't have any control of what is public knowledge.We cannot crash down Filisko's door and demand he tells us all the secrets.
If a small group of artisans want to keep that knowledge secret and only pass it on to those they trust - well that's how craftsmen have worked for centuries. It's the Filisko 'Guild' for a reason.
If someone were figure things out for themselves, well done; They can put the knowledge out there if they choose to, but don't expect the Guild members to pat them on the back and confirm everything.
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2010 6:31 PM
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HarpNinja
797 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:33 PM
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http://groups.google.com/group/harp-l/browse_thread/thread/da8e5a9352b6a4ae/1f3d368ddabfeede?lnk=gst&q=chamfering+embossing#1f3d368ddabfeede
This even includes detailed pictures of before and after. Rick has shared this numerous times.
Years worth of info on the Harmonica Workbench about mods to harps...http://harmonicasessions.com/.
Harp-L Archives and Google are a dangerous thing. Taking the time to search in the right places isn't that difficult.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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HarpNinja
798 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:40 PM
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Another comment if I may...
Joe Spiers has fantastic videos on YouTube explaining gapping. His process if a fantastic way to approach gapping to your needs. That has been there forever, but I doubt too many people really take the time to test and retest and test again.
If you also search out online resources for people like Sleigh, they do come up. I've spent hours digging into stuff, getting lessons on customizing, reverse engineering custom harps, trial and error...I mean hours and hours and hours.
Like learning to play well, you have to eventually learn it on your own. See the Rick Epping link. It took me forever to figure out what was going on there. I couldn't explain it any better than he did now...I just finally tried it until it worked.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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harpwrench
372 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:54 PM
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The most accurate and relevant info that I've seen on the world wide web about how a reed/slot should be optimized is actually right here in the forum archives. I found it in 5 seconds just now. But MrV is correct, they aren't as simple as one would think.
The proprietary details that better technicians will perform around that generic parameter is what makes our harps different from builder to builder.
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harpwrench
373 posts
Nov 27, 2010
6:57 PM
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And neither Buddha or any other working customizer posted it......happy hunting
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HarpNinja
799 posts
Nov 27, 2010
7:07 PM
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Grrrr...I was just about to go to bed!
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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nacoran
3316 posts
Nov 27, 2010
7:18 PM
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Lol. How will us hacks know it when we see it harpwrench?
MrVLUN, that big leaky paired reed- If I've understood the description, that's what a discrete comb takes care of...
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Nate
Facebook
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HarpNinja
800 posts
Nov 27, 2010
7:21 PM
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I think I know the answer, but I am so OC about certain things...like reedwork (hate working on combs and covers) and band marketing. I am like that at my day job too. I am totally Zen 95% of the time and then certain things I just totally obsess over!!! Especially when I have a week off from gigging and nothing better to do (kids are asleep).
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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chromaticblues
338 posts
Nov 27, 2010
7:28 PM
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I've never seen the rick epping vid before. Theres some good stuff to get people started. I spent two years just ruining harps. I didn't do it to make money of people. I did it because I wanted to be a better harp player. I do so many things different than the stuff you just mentioned. All I can say is its all common sense. The key is using a magnifying glass to really see whats going on. Don't take everything online or youtube as the golden rule. Its just stuff that can point you in the right direction. Theres one vid youtube about embossing that gave me the idea to do it the way I do it now. The way he did it on the vid isn't the way he does it on his custom harps, but it gave me an idea about how I could do it more evenly and do harps faster.
If someone would like to elaborate how scooping makes thier harps better, and exactly what to do and what effect it has. Thats an interesting subject!
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