3 players, 2 amps. One amp is my Mission Chicago 1x12 and the other is a 2x10 from a good harp amp builder. The amps are similar in power, both 2x6L6.
So, which sound clip is which amp? No hints! I made these recordings at a blues jam in Denver, using my Zoom Q3. The recordings were all made from the same spot in the club and with the same settings. No editing on the sound files.
So, good luck all you amp experts! The first person to get all three correct will win... um... Bragging Rights!
Whilst writing this post I tried to think of something kind to say. Unfortunately I couldn't.
Rick I know that you're really hyped by the Mission harp amp and I applaud your efforts in promoting it. So I apologise in advance in case the following offends you in any way.
Here's my honest thoughts.
I suspect that track 1 is the 2X10. Just because it's an even shittier sound than the other two clips and obviously you are going to be biased in favour of the Mission 1X12.
The reality though is that none of those clips would entice me to buy either amp. The playing in all the clips was at best extremely mediocre as was the amped tone.
Rick in my honest opinion I think you could actually harm sales of the Mission harp amp with clips like that.
What's needed as people have already said in previous threads about the Mission harp amp, are some high quality studio sound files with a really good player. Someone like Ronnie Shellist or Nic Clark would be ideal for the job in my mind.
That would showcase the amp in a significantly better light than the clips you have posted above in my humble opinion.
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 10:51 AM
Hey, lighten up! It's a blues jam, just like thousands of blues jams across the country. The players are typical of what you might hear at any blues jam. No need to insult them.
tmf714, with all your purported expertise about harp amps I thought surely you could pick out the 1x12 amp (which you say is clearly inferior) from these recordings.
Kingley, studio recordings of the Mission Chicago amp are on the way. I am a lot more interested in how amps make the typical player sound in a live situation. Bruce Collins of Mission Harp Amps has video on his website of Ronnie Shellist and Nic Clark playing the amp at jams. That is what MOST amp shoppers are looking for: Good tone at levels that can be heard in loud live settings without feedback. A studio recording tells you none of that.
But this little Quiz isn't about the amps so much as it is about you guys. Can you tell which amp is 2x10 and which is 1x12 by listening to it? If so, how?
"Can you tell which amp is 2x10 and which is 1x12 by listening to it?"
Rick - I have already told you in my first post. You just haven't said whether or not I'm right.
I didn't think this phrase was insulting. It was just an honest observation. "The playing in all the clips was at best extremely mediocre as was the amped tone."
The phrase: "Just because it's an even shittier sound than the other two clips and obviously you are going to be biased in favour of the Mission 1X12"
Was aimed at the fact that the last two clips are a much more powerful sound than the first one and was in no way a reflection on the players. It was merely an observation of your choice of audio tracks to post. Which I believe to be biased heavily in favour of the Mission harp amp.
Now it's time for you to answer the following questions.
Did I pick the right clip? Are you just trying to fleece us all and are they all the Mission amp?
If you want us to compare to amps by listening on-line - which is nearly impossible, please eliminate every other variable possible.
a) use the same player (hopefully a good one) b) use the same mic c) play the same key harp and groove d) set the amps for the same output volume e) of course use the same recording location and settings.
With all that said, I love games. The penalty for being wrong is nothing, so I'll guess. I'm gonna guess #2 is the 1x12 and 3 is the 2x10. However with what appears to be 3 different players, it is hard to compare. The first guy can't play at all and makes it hard to hear the amp in a meaningful way. The second player is OK and knows how to cup a mic - sounds like a single speaker to me. The 3rd guy is in between in talent. Flat the third for chrissakes!
If I could ignore the instructions for the quiz I'd say the first player was playing off the vocal mic, the second plugged a mediocre bullet into the PA, and the last one was the 2x8 or 1x12.
I don't have anything to say about the amps but the third guy is so far out of the groove he sounds like he is arguing with the band. ---------- Tin Lizzie
I'm just guessing. I don't claim to be an expert at anything.
The first guy doesn't sound very good, so I'll guess he is not playing through Rick's amp. He's playing through the 2x10 amp.
Player number two sounds the best, so he must be playing through the 1x12 Mission amp.
Player three is probably using the same 2x10 amp.
I wish someone else would buy one of those amps and record some decent stuff with it. Maybe, I'll auction off a bunch of stuff on ebay, bite the bullet and do it.
1 and 2 are the 2 x 10" amp. Amp seems voiced with lots of middle and a fair bit of treble and higher gain on the pre amp.
3 is the 1 x 12" Sounds to me like a better voiced amp for Chicago playing. better lows with a smoothed off top end. Not too much gain, probably with lower pre amp voltages.
With different amps, having the same "settings" is immaterial. You'd need to ignore the numbers and try to do it by ear. ----------
Ah, the return of Tricky Dick Davis. When Tricky Dick disappears off MBH for a few days, he is probably cooking up something, and here it is, just in time for the U.S. holiday.
"But this little Quiz isn't about the amps so much as it is about you guys."
Hey, Tricky Dick, lighten up! When I see you calling this thing of yours a Quiz, I think you are taking yourself Way Too Seriously, more Seriously than the audience can take you, anyway. It's like when you called a previous cross-post (one is tempted to call it a piece, as it certainly was a Piece) of yours an Article as though it had been published in a Newspaper or Journal that people pay Good Money for, overseen by an Editor, when actually it was just a blog post.
It really is somewhat Unwise of the audience to participate At All in your Quiz by Guessing when it so likely is just One Big Trick Question designed to give Tricky Dick an opportunity to Scream the phrase So-Called Experts if they get Even One of the answers wrong. Why should anyone expect a Quiz from Tricky Dick Davis to be anything but a Trick Question?
Today is a U.S. national holiday dedicated to remembering important matters. But it's also a good day to recall a relatively trivial one:
Once upon a time, there was a Boutique Harp Amp advocate who was very Abrasive and liked to Run Down other Brands of Amplifier and get into Long Wrangles with his Opponents online. If anyone said Anything Negative At All about the amp he advocated, he would Froth and Call Them Names like So-Called Expert. Unfortunately, the result of his Passionate Advocacy was that he only tied a Can to the Tail of his Favored Amplifier Brand, permanently Tainting it in the eyes of much of the Buying Public.
Some Wise Man or Other once said something to the effect that those who do not remember history are Doomed to Repeat It. It is puzzling to see Someone who was so Intimately Involved in the abovementioned History be so apparently Intent on Repeating It.
Harpaholic, I was pretty clear that the RECORDING settings were the same, not the amp settings. I don't know what the amp settings were. Each player adjusted his amp the way he wanted to.
Okay, let's make it a bit more fun: There were three different mics involved: A bullet with a CM element, a bullet with a crystal element, and an EV RE-10. None of these guys played through the PA nor were they lined out to the board.
(Actually, I think you can guess which mic is which.)
Kingley, it is interesting that you picked number 1 to be the 2x10 because you thought it was "shittier" than the rest. What about the other two?
MUCH has been made about the tone of a 2x10 being "better" than a 1x12. Here is your chance to demonstrate that. These are three typical jam rats who have all paid a rather large amount of money for boutique harp amps. Who is playing the 1x12?
I'm not BS'ing anybody; I have all this on video. BUT!.... I will keep the players and the other amp maker anonymous.
htownfess, that was a LONG way for you to say "I don't know."
You further obfuscated:
"Once upon a time, there was a Boutique Harp Amp advocate who was very Abrasive and liked to Run Down other Brands of Amplifier and get into Long Wrangles with his Opponents online. If anyone said Anything Negative At All about the amp he advocated, he would Froth and Call Them Names..."
Wow, that sounds a LOT like a friend of mine named Gary Onofrio. As I said over and over, I think Gary makes great amps. So does Brian Purdy at HaqrpGear and Scooter over at Meteor. Mike Wezolowski make a wonderful amp, the WEZO 45. There are many others.
Gary has mellowed out lately. So have I. But, some people have trouble letting go of petty grudges... They insult my and others playing, and resort to sophomoric name calling like "Tricky Dick." Your screed is a textbook example of hypocrisy. Thanks for making it so obvious.
"Okay, let's make it a bit more fun: There were three different mics involved"
So your idea of "a bit more fun" would be "a quiz that is even less meaningful as a blind comparison"?
That's still not enough variables--record in three different venues next time, with three different recorders. And have one of the players stand on their head while playing, but don't tell us which one it is :-).
"MUCH has been made about the tone of a 2x10 being "better" than a 1x12."
Was the straw man stuck in holiday weekend traffic, that he shows up so late? LOL
Cite the "MUCH" chapter & verse or it's just another weekly Straw Man Jam, with your host Tricky Dick ;-).
I didn't obfuscate, Rick, I employed irony. That what those little ;-) sort of things mean.
"Tricky Dick" isn't like calling Ev630 "Evie"? We're not allowed to make up nicknames for people? You're making up names, so doesn't that make you a hypocrite, then?
"Wow, that sounds a LOT like a friend of mine named Gary Onofrio."
*Thank you* for saying that at 6:16 pm. Please don't edit it out.
Okay, Greg... Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Here is the answer:
#1 is a good 2x10 amp from a boutiqe harp amp builder.
#2 and #3 are the same 1x12 amp.
Care to take a guess at the mics? BTW... The RE-10 had one of your inline volume controls on the end of it.
All three players are regular jammers who spend money for amps, custom harps, mics, and accessories like the inline volume control. They are not the best players who I see in jams around here, but they certainly are not the worst. I didn't set up this little comparison, it just worked out this way.
What does it prove? NOTHING! Except it illustrates a couple things: Conventional wisdom is often bullshit, and some people get all pissed off when their conventional wisdom is challenged. This wasn't a test to compare the amps... it was a test to compare bias to reality.
MP, #2 and #3 are 1x12 Mission Amps. (the same amp, actually). The 2x10 amp in #1 will remain anonymous. I explained what you win in the original post: Bragging Rights!
Here's a new quiz, kids: Name every "good harp amp builder" who offers a 2x10 twin-6L6 model. Then we'll use those answers and make guesses about what brand was on clip 1. Sound like fun? Bet we can really expose some biases in the process!
"This wasn't a test to compare the amps... it was a test to compare bias to reality."
Htownfess, you are compelled to make a fool of yourself. The statements are perfectly parallel.
BTW... You keep hooting the phrase "Straw Man Argument!" I don't think you know what it means. If you are so certain about that, go ahead and prove it! After all, that is what logic is all about.
You seem desperate to direct the debate away from the topic (no matter what the topic) and direct it toward me every time. That is obnoxious trolling. It is for sore losers.
RICK, i totally believe you are completely wrong about 3 being a mission. sooo...i positively insist that 1 and 3 are harpgears and 2 is the mission and i want my filisko now,right now! (key of A)please, thank you.
respectfully, your invisible MP
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 8:17 PM
Rick - Your test/quiz/whatever isn't a very good test. Your test would have been much better had you employed the same mic, player and key of harp. There were far too many variables in this little exercise.
About the only constant in your quiz was the relative humidity in the club.
Those guys may be typical jam players at the jams you frequent, but they aren't representative of the guys that I see around town.
Plus, most of us know that the player has a lot to do with the overall sound. For example, Greg Heumann and I have played through the same gear many, many times. Our playing sounds nothing alike. Greg's a pro. I am not.
I may be really ignorant, but I'm not sure I understand what you are attempting to prove. If it's that 1x12 is better than 2x10, you probably need a better test and you need to better define the criteria for "what sounds better."
Here's an example, I've own a Meteor Mini Meat. It can have a heavily overdriven sound. Some people love that tone, others don't.
Here's another example, two weeks ago, I saw Gary Smith and Dennis Greunling. They were playing through a variety of amps at David Barrett's Masterclass.
First amp was my Champ clone w/ 1x8. Second up was Gary's Valve Jr half stack w/ 1x12. Last amp was a brownface reissue '63 Vibroverb (2x10) with the stock speakers. (Those speakers are considered to be turds by many).
Which amp sounded best? It depended who you asked. Many of the people in the audience thought the Champ sounded fantastic. I thought the Vibroverb sounded the best to me. Nobody that I spoke with mentioned that the Valve Jr sounded particularly great.
Does that mean 1x8 sounds better than 2x10 or 1x12? No. The Champ gets buried in the mix with a loud band. It's a damn good tool in the right situation.
Personally, I don't mind these little quizzes. I don't think you did any of those three players or the Denver scene any favors. Most of the players that I've come across there are pretty good. These clips didn't show that.
Last Edited by on May 31, 2010 9:27 PM
Rick, you're the sore loser. The first person to guess, Kingley, guessed absolutely correctly--he identified the 2x10 amp as the first clip.
Who out there thinks Rick should say Kingley gets bragging rights?
Except MP, of course, who also gets bragging rights plus an A Filisko plus a lifetime supply of HGs to modify ;-).
The only way to expose an alleged bias that 2x10 combos sound better tonally is to have a. a 1x12 that sounds better and b. a 2x10 that sounds worse. You have to fool people on purpose to trick them into betraying their bias, so you have to force the audience to compare the two combos. Didn't work, though, first guesser guessed it right, partly by guessing that you'd be trying to trick people. it was about comparing amps, all right.
Rick, if you understood what a straw man argument is, you'd know the burden of proof rests with you. Substantiate your claim that I quoted, instead of changing the subject by going ad hominem. And btw, analyzing your rhetoric is not going ad hominem.
I think the real bias Rick Davis has managed to expose with this thread is the bias in favor of fair play that much or all of the audience has revealed. Has anyone out there ever seen such a lamentably poor clip of a competitor's amp being offered for explicit comparison for all the online world to hear? The disingenuousness of claiming that making it anonymous excuses anything, or claiming that critics of the clip are attacking the poor anonymous harp player thereon, or that the clips of one's "own" amp aren't so hot either, is mindboggling on this side of the Atlantic and gobsmacking on the other. If you really respect your competitors, you don't post a crummy clip of their stuff. Actions speak louder than words.
"What does it prove? NOTHING! Except it illustrates a couple things: Conventional wisdom is often bullshit, and some people get all pissed off when their conventional wisdom is challenged."
Well, if the quiz proved nothing, then the conventional wisdom was not successfully challenged. Better luck next time, Rick.
"Kingley, it is interesting that you picked number 1 to be the 2x10 because you thought it was "shittier" than the rest. What about the other two?"
I thought none the amps sounded particularly good in those clips. As I stated previously "The reality though is that none of those clips would entice me to buy either amp".
Even though this was a "test to compare bias to reality", you're still stacking up the Mission amp against competition. Given the fact that you seem to have declared yourself as a self imposed ambassador for Mission amps, I'd have honestly expected you to provide better audio clips with more seasoned players.
Yep, I wasn't impressed with any of those clips but this whole speaker setup fight is stupid. I like 4x10"s and I also like 1x8" and 1x10". I mean, come on, there is no better, it is a matter of opinion and personal preference.
Before I read into this thread... I listened to the samples and pegged the first amp as likely to be the 2x10, the 2nd as clearly a 5e3 style 12 and the 3rd could go either way due to the mediocre player tone making it hard to be certain.
The first clip in particular should be discounted in any amp comparison as clearly having the "fix" in. The player clearly is inexperienced when it comes to getting a good tone out of any amp. Poor acoustic tone and no mic technique. The third clip was also feeble, but not as bad as the first.
I'm going go go back and read the thread now and see how I did.
"Here's the embed on what is unmistakably a badass harp amp:" Don't know if it's the compression on YT, but some of the notes sound a bit "draggy", like when you plug into a bunch of 4 ways rather than go straight in the wall AC socket?
@5F6H: I hear what you mean early on, like right around 1:03-1:04, but it sounds to me like either the camera mic distorting or the compression artifact you mention, or both. I didn't notice it happening at all later on, the balance of the video is clear, which indicates to me that it's probably not the amp. Tricky business recording a blasting amp with a camera that has no sound level meter on it.
Looks like a big conference room, and though one can blast pretty loud in one of those, proximity still rules. It says a lot to me that the amp's not feeding back with that mic, at that level.
Htownfess wrote: "the balance of the video is clear, which indicates to me that it's probably not the amp".
Indeed, having heard & played other SJ amps, it doesn't strike me as a typical feature of Gary's amps. Nevertheless, it doesn't show the amp in its best light.
Gary has the top endorsers,the best clips for his amps,and is THE best harp amp builder who actually plays harmonica. I have had the privilege of playing with Gary on numreous occasions-the man can play!! The latest vids were taped in a large conference room in San Jose at a huge amp/guitar convention.
Something did sound odd to me when he first started playing. There was a change in sound between his speaking and when he started playing, but his playing sounded good to me. (I should state that I listened to this on crappy laptop speakers.)
It's probably the audio level in the camera adjusting.
TMF714 No one has said anything about the quality of Gary's playing & his reputation speaks for itself...but that Avenger clip is not the best clip of his amps (other SS/410 & cruncher clips aren't splatty like that, I know it's a new amp, but I find it hard to believe it's a feature of the Avenger). As 'Fess points out, there are other variables that could be affecting the clip quality, but I really think Gary should redo that clip, I don't believe it to be representative of his product.
I'm not saying I don't like the amp, I'm saying that a better demo is undoubtedly possible & surely Gary wants the amp to be heard at its best? My intention is to be constructive.
@TMF714 - Which huge amp/guitar convention in San Jose was it? I live near San Jose and I'm surprised I didn't hear about it. If it's an annual event, I may want to go next year.
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2010 9:11 AM
Joe it was all over Harp-L and probably why it's been quiet there recently.
Did you attend, Thomas?
Mark, I think for a rough clip that demo shows that the Avenger is an amp with HUGE gonads. Be good to hear a pro demo by Gary, but I think all of us who have flying time on bigger amps can see and hear that this amp is going to hold its own in a live situation.
I'm more than happy with my Clark and Super Sonny for big amps, so don't think I'm getting GAS already... ;)
It was a show in the Crowne Plaza directly across the road from Dave Barrett's Masterclass. I guess Gary and Dave had a little mix up,so Gary setup his amp demo to draw people from the music convention and the Masterclass. I did not attend.
I guess that explains why I didn't see him on Thursday night during Barrett's amp demo. I dropped by there with a couple of amps expecting to see him and didn't.
My post isn't about grudges, preconceived notions , or any other nonsense. Rick if you want to play this game, post something decent because what you have posted is garbage. Not the players, not the amp, but the presentation. If your clips are to show the best the amp can do, I am afraid you have fallen short. Based on what I have read, this is a pretty interesting piece of equipment but the marketing on your part is poor. I am truly sorry to say this as I am really rooting for this amp and for Bruce/Missions success. Take a lesson from Gary's clips. At a MINIMUM, it is what Bruce should do to market the amp. Really, to showcase a newly released amp with clips from a blues jam is daft, no matter how you justify it.
Yes, I am harsh, but truthful Rick, you only get one shot at "first impressions." The amp has not failed here, but the presentation has.
Please accept this as a sincere and constructive critique, and not a mean spirited post. If I thought this thing was junk, I would not have taken the time to post this.
Harpaholic- I have witnessed first hand Gary changing speakers,caps,resistors tubes and even biasing an amp while I stood there-he knows what he's doing. Soldering is a small part of amp building in respect to the other components-soldering is left to someone who does that on a regular basis. Do you really think Gary's amps just build themselves at a factory? You are sadley mistaken-without Gary's input,his amps would not exsist-therefore,Gary IS an amp builder who plays harp.
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 3:53 AM
@TMF714 - You are overstating the case & not really doing Gary any favours. Soldering is NOT a small part of amp building, correct soldering & good layout are the MOST important aspects of building an amp...that's why the high end products sell for much, much more than baseline amps with the same circuit (you can build an amp to a schematic & use all the right values and the thing simply not work at all if you don't know what you are doing).
The amps are built to Gary's spec, I'm sure Gary can install speakers, change tubes & bias...but then so can (& should) anyone with a nut driver, screw driver & a bias probe (Gary supplies Bias Rites & instructions on how to do this). Harpaholic is right, Gary does not call himself a "tech", he has people that he can discuss tech issues with...he has a vision & has realised it, that is credit worthy enough, he does not "manufacture" the amps, at least as far as far as constructing the chassis. I think this whole harp player/builder, not harp/player builder thing is irrelevant & a diversion, I know who does & doesn't build their own amps (it's a VERY short list if we're talking about commercially available products...like, a list of one!)& it doesn't have any bearing on what is or isn't a good product. You will buy the product you like the sound of.
In any case if a "player/builder" got enough orders, they'd have to hire in help/outsource to fulfill them anyway.
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 4:23 AM
5F6H- gary does not need favours from me-he has done enough for me as a friend and mentor. I am not talking about a "bias probe" here when he biased my Bassman-this is where my pesonal knowledge of Garys abilities come into play. He biased from the cathode lead of each output tube,using a 1ohm resistor,then measuring voltage drop. He never used a "bias probe"-the probe is a tool created to make biasing easier for the layman. I was fortunate enough to spend a few days with Gary-he let me play through the first 4x10 before it was shipped to Kim Wilson. I know the man well enough to vouch for his abilities as a player and his knowledge about amps. Living an hour away from Gary,I got to know him very well-I will always have the nothing but respect for the man and his abilities-both as a musician and a friend.
My point is that anyone who owns a fixed bias amp with a bias pot should be able to set their own bias. Some bias probes simply have the 1ohm resistor you mention built into the adapter (others might interrupt the plate connection), they do the same thing. The SJ amps that I have seen did not have 1ohm cathode resistors.
I too like to use the 1ohm cathode resistor method, as this is also a mod that makes biasing easier for the layman & tech alike. Otherwise, you would simply shunt the OT...but this involves connecting directly to high voltage dc & is potentially more dangerous to amp & novice.
"Living an hour away from Gary,I got to know him very well-I will always have the nothing but respect for the man and his abilities-both as a musician and a friend." That's great, but I don't think anyone here has said that they have anything but respect for Gary & his amps. The fact remains, Harpaholic is right. Gary has an extensive knowledge about amps, he is the head of SJ Enterprises and is therefore responsible for the building/voicing of the amps, but he does not "build" them (I can think of at least one other builder with a product out there, who makes his own eyelet boards, lays out & mounts all components, makes & covers his own cabs, etc). In that respect he is simply not the "only player/builder" (however strict, or loose you want that description to be) in the market. Again, it makes no direct difference to the performance of the product...if it sounds good, it IS good.
It's great that you are loyal to your friend, but facts are facts.
However, I don't really think a public forum is really the best place to discuss an individual's specific skill sets, there is the possibility (given the nature of these threads) that intents may erroneously be read into these discussions. Therefore TMF714 you are welcome to PM if you want to discuss this further.
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2010 6:14 AM
