Alexander
2 posts
Mar 31, 2010
9:48 AM
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Hi brothers and sisters,
I got some problem with my new Solist Pro. I really need some help, cause I am getting a bit depressed - Maybe you can help me.
To explain my situation I would like to tell you what happened recently on my harmonica journey:
After I played some years off and on on some standard diatonic harps (marine band, bluesmaster, some cheap seydel, blues harp, seydel blues session, ...) I decided to try some higher quality harps recently. I got myself a Manji, a Crossover and a Solist Pro. I like the Solist Pro best of all harps I have ever played, cause it is doesn't wound my lips, got a nice wooden comb (for some reason I don't feel so comfortable with plastic combs) and a good sound. But I have one big problem with that harp:
After playing it for about twenty-fife times, the four hole draw got totally out of tune. The draw notes pitch got about as low as the four hole blow. The pitch of the four hole draw changed within a minute or so; I just played and suddenly the four hole draw was damaged. Did I blow out the harp? I never blew out a harp before, although I played some of my old harps for many hours (and hard; that marine band needs to be played hard - no?). I also played that Manji and Crossover already quite often and I don't have any problems with them. I also explained that to the vendor and they replaced the Solist Pro for me, cause I thought it was faulty (and I have been really happy for the replacement). The shitty thing is: After receiving the replacement Solist Pro and playing it for about seven or eight times (an hour or two each time), the four hole draw is broken again (and I really barely used the four hole bend within this short time of playing the harp).
What is happening here? I guess it is my fault; What I might do wrong? Why do I destroy this harp within no time? I am really depressed about that, cause the Solist Pro is by far the most complete harp for me ( In some way I fell in love with it); I can relax so much when I am playing this harp. And I think I am playing it quite soft. The Solist Pro kind of asks me to play not hard. But I have no idea why it breaks. Can you give me some help or advice what I might do wrong? What happened with my harp?
For my broken Solist Pro I plan to just re-tune it myself. Do you think that is going to work?
What can I do to prevent that accident in the future?
Many many thanks for your opinions in advance,
Alexander
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Ant138
399 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:27 AM
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Hi alexander,i too am locked in a love affair with the solist pro. i personaly have never had a problem with them(my oldest soloist pro is around 11 months old). but there are alot of people on this forum who have had the same problem with them. i think it might be your force of breath. the slot tolerence on seydel harps is alot tighter than other brands and they require alot less force to play. i hope i never have the same problem as i think ive found my harp of choice with the solist pro and the 1847. good luck.
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barbequebob
654 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:37 AM
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Ant is right on the use of breath force and the average player NEVER thinks that they play too hard. Since Seydels are using tighter slot tolerances, and that's usually the same for most of the higher priced diatonics, ESPECIALLY custom ones, breath force is a HUGE issue with the average player and until you reign that in, it will always be a problem for you, and often times when the average player bends a note, they use a far harder force to make it happen, and that's flat out bad playing technique in no uncertain terms.
My best advice is this: play just loud enough that you won't wake up a baby sleeping in the next room.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 10:40 AM
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nacoran
1523 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:20 AM
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Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear about your problem. My favorite harp is a Seydel Blues Favorite.
The one knock on tightly gapped harps is they are more likely to blow out. You can play lighter, maybe re-gap it a little looser, or learn how to replace reeds. I'd try them in that order. I hope it was just a couple bad reeds.
Another thing you might want to try if you aren't is playing with a mic and amp. The only harp I ever blew out I blew out playing when I was jamming with a friend who was using an acoustic guitar.
Good luck.
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Nate
Facebook
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congaron
743 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:28 AM
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The only reed i have blown since i started last february (2009) was a 4 draw reed when i literally couldn't hear myself play during a gig. when it went flat I heard it! I was just overplaying to try and hear myself over a bad monitor mix when the tweeters in both monitors blew from a sound guy error.
Try to use as little air as you can to get the reeds to sound. It's good practice and saves a lot of energy too.
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walterharp
286 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:47 AM
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all that said, sometimes a reed is damaged when you get a harp and fails really quickly, just bad luck, but the metal can be cracked or flawed
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MP
119 posts
Mar 31, 2010
12:39 PM
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i'll bet you're bummed.
a friend got a new solist pro and the 4 draw went out in a week. i replaced it for him and then the 4 blow went,(i saw that one comming) so i replaced that one too.
then the 5 draw went and i didn't have that size reed.(i use hohner parts).
anyway. you can get new plates from elk river harmonicas. don't quote me but i think it's $20 or less.
personally, i really like these harps. i give you the benefit of the doubt, i think that you got some lemons and agree with walterharp.
i slowly break in my harps to get the reeds used to moving. i'd be careful with the 4 on new seydels.
hohners seem a little sturdier to me and don't require as much babying. good luck.
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barbequebob
655 posts
Mar 31, 2010
12:59 PM
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Nacoran< I think you're confusing tightly gapped, which make sense for overblows, with tighter reed slot tolerances, which is what actually lets more air into the reeds of the harmonica, allowing them to be played louder with a lot less effort.
What he definitely needs to do is to lighten up considerably on his breath force.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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isaacullah
913 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:02 PM
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I have two soloist pros. One blew the 4 draw and the other the 4 blow. Yeah, probably has something to do with stressing the reed too much. I suppose Seydel figures that folks buying a soloist pro (or 1847) are serious enough players to know to blow lighter, but I guess that's not the case anymore since all harps cost a pretty penny these days. I certainly didn't know not to blow though my soloist pros like blow though my Marine Bands. I've never blown out a Marine Band, or any other harp besides those soloist pros, by the way. They were lovely harps while they lasted! One day I'll replace the reeds, but I don't have that kind of time at the moment.
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------------------
The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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Stickman
276 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:06 PM
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I think you're confusing tightly gapped, which make sense for overblows, with tighter reed slot tolerances
What? These are 2 different things? what is the difference?
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The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
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barbequebob
656 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:16 PM
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The gap is for the reed itself, and the slot tolerances is basically the distance between the wall of the slot that the reed vibrates in and the very edge of the reed itself. The tighter the tolerance, the greater the amount of air gets directed to the reed, the greater the volume, the easier it plays, the easier it bends, but in the hands of a poorly skiled player who plays too hard all the time, the huge risk is that the harp will get blown out a lot faster.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
120 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:20 PM
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some reed slots are smaller,( from harp to different harp) or you can make them smaller by embossing the slots but nevermind. tolerance is how close the reed fits into the slot and still clears it(sides and front).
am i right BBQ? or did i mix 'em up?
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 1:28 PM
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barbequebob
657 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:27 PM
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MP, that's basically it, and the other drawback besides too much breath force and quick blow out is that if you also tend to play with a very wet mouth all the time, the chances of getting the reed clogged up with dead skin and/or saliva, preventing the reed from playing at all also increases greatly.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
121 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:43 PM
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as an aside,
i lent a hard player a nice harp i'd just customized with maximum tolerances and v. close gapping the other day.
in 3 hours he knocked it out of tune and reduced it's ease of playing considerably.
and this was a MB.
after surgery it's not quite the same. the reeds are just a tad duller sounding. now it's an old man.
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barbequebob
658 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:57 PM
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No surprise there!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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nacoran
1524 posts
Mar 31, 2010
3:20 PM
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BBQ- You're right. Sorry about the bum advice.
How about whatever the reverse of embossing is? Shaving the sides of the slots a little? If he only has problems with really tight slot tolerances and the big selling point of the harp is the comfort, maybe he could sacrifice a little response for durability? I've gapped my harps before and opened up the backs, but my only attempts at embossing have ended up with generally unplayable harps (one or two holes improved, three or four ruined, but it was just a Blues Band I bought to practice on so only a few bucks down the drain.)
Alexander, if the reed is blown retuning it may not help; I think from what I've been told once a reed goes it's structurally weakened and will go again quickly. You could replace the reed. That's beyond my mechanical skill but I've seen videos on YouTube showing how to do it.
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Nate
Facebook
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earlounge
6 posts
Mar 31, 2010
4:51 PM
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Would someone please describe the difference between blowing a reed out and knocking one out of tune? How does it sound? Can you fix a "blown out" reed with out replacing it? If playing too hard can blow out a reed, then what causes one to go out of tune?
Sorry for the noob questions! I'm going crazy buying books and tools to tune some messed up harps. I thought I can fix them by retuning... am I going to sadly mistaken?
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MP
123 posts
Mar 31, 2010
5:30 PM
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when you blow a reed it is finished,kaput. it cannot be tuned. it needs to be replaced.
one way to check if a reed is blown is to plink it with a plinking tool. if it plinks, you might be able to bring it back up to pitch. if it clucks, you're out of luck.
make sure you have a tuner!!! the tuner can hear you plinking and indicate what note is sounding.
although,sometimes if it clucks it might be out of alignment and needs to be straightened with a reed wrench. sometimes you'll plink a reed and it will snap off near the fixed end. you didn't break it plinking, it was broken already.
when a reed is knocked out of tune, it will sound flat. it should be pretty obvious when chording or running scales.
i'm pretty sure a lot of players are unaware if a reed or two is slightly flat. most of the harps that come in for repairs aren't brought in till a reed is radically flat, nearly a 1/2 step off.
hope this helps, MP
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 5:41 PM
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MP
124 posts
Mar 31, 2010
5:36 PM
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and BBQ...i'll never do that ever again. i'd might as well set fire to a handful of $20s.
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MP
125 posts
Mar 31, 2010
5:58 PM
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PS. tuning is an art. be prepared to destroy reeds. practice on harps you don't mind ruining. i suggest a sanding wand (320 to 400 grit)rather than files at first- and thin feeler gage shims for support if you are just starting. LEE OSKARs shim is too thick(.008) and his files aren't too great either. i use files but they are good files. sometimes i'll use the wand on upper register reeds cuz they are so short and delicate.
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conjob
24 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:04 PM
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those who own solist pros. do they overblow well? thinking of getting a few but vaguely recall discussion on this site that they aren't very good for overblows.
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conjob
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strawwoodclaw
5 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:27 PM
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dont let Blues Harps depress you they are one of the few things desinged to cheer you the **** up. I had a Soloist pro that did the same thing I like the two new marnie bands best - I think Honner should make one like on the top of this page.
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J-Sin
9 posts
Apr 01, 2010
2:42 AM
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I have blown out 3 Seydels shortly after purchase (Solist Pro and Blues Favorite). In addition, one of them had a dead reed right out of the box (this is when a reed doesn't play freely, and it's not a question of alignment). Nothing like this happened to me with any other harmonicas.
So I just can't trust Seydels to be my workhorses anymore. They play ok, but have some issues with reeds.
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Reed to the Beat!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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boris_plotnikov
66 posts
Apr 01, 2010
3:29 AM
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The only harp which my student blow out was Seidel Blues Session. He play enough soft I'd say, his hohners are ok. Also, I've read some reviews about seydel brass reed they goes flat too fast.
I got only one soloist pro in LowC and I rare play it.
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http://myspace.com/harmonicaboris
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Bluefinger
155 posts
Apr 01, 2010
4:33 AM
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Same here, my Solist Pros and 1847 are great but they blow out a lot faster than other harps. Actually they are the only harps that I ever blow out. Their lifespan has gone up dramatically tho over the last couple of months tho because I think my technique has improved. Still I need to be very careful ... one hard blow bend and that's it. There is very little room for error. I do a lot of first position stuff in A and I always keep an old Special 20 MS in my case in addition to my two Seydels in A just in case because this one seems to be indestructible.
I saw Charlie Musselwhite, who is a Seydel endorsee, a couple of nights ago and he blew out two harps that night. It also happens to the best players ...
Sometimes this can get unnerving but it's a good way to train my technique. I just can't get myself to play anything else because an 1847 or a Solist Pro with those nice 1847 covers looks and feels like a Cadillac next to a Hohner.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Ant138
400 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:14 AM
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@Conjob , My Solist Pro's do overblow. My best is probably my G Solist pro, it overblows like its been set up for it,so does my Ab. I havn't adjusted any of my harps to overblow as i don't know how to, so some are better than others.
My Bb Solist pro doesn't overblow so well, it can be done but its not great so i think that one could do with some adjusting(by the way i can only overblow the 4,5,and 6 holes on any harp, i've only just learnt how to do it). Sorry i'm going off on a tangent, in short YES Solist Pro's do overblow just as good as any other harp in my opinion.
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Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 5:16 AM
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Bluzdude46
560 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:29 AM
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Contrary to Bob's belief that no one admits to using too much force, Well I do, I know I do, I'm getting better about it, but Yea I do. I've found that Seydel harps don't feel right the way I play (except the Blues Favorites) Lee Oskars don't hold up MB's require a lot of work for me to like them..... Buddha Harps? ....Juuuuust right!!
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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Bluefinger
156 posts
Apr 01, 2010
8:10 AM
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No matter if someone admits that they use to much force or not, fact is that a standard MB for example takes a lot more abuse than a Seydel. A Solist Pro is not a very forgiving instrument in that department. The good thing is, that it forces me to improve my technique while I could get along on a MB with bad technique for a long time.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Alexander
3 posts
Apr 01, 2010
8:15 AM
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Thank you guys for so much response and opinions. You cheered me up a bit.
I am going to work on my force of breath; at least I can learn my lesson from that accident now.
As I explained in my first post I actually damaged two of them in short time. The first one was totally out of tune. But my current Solist Pro (the second one) is only flat on the four hole draw. I think I will retune it. I got a tuner, some other harps and a guitar for comparison to get the pitch right again. Right now I don't care so much about a perfect temperament.
Other harps are nice too, but the Solist Pro feels sooo comfortable in my mouth .....
One other thing: Is there a plastic harp, which got a comb shaped like the ordinary marine band comb?
@BarbequeBob: What do you think, what harps are good to learn to play with less force?
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 8:38 AM
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Bluefinger
159 posts
Apr 01, 2010
8:59 AM
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There is no regular plastic harp I know of but the Seydel 1847 Silver (not the "+") has a solid comb made of some kind of composite material. So does the Manji. They both don't have that recessed reed plate design like a Lee Oscar or Special 20.
BTW: You can try retuning it but if it's out of tune a lot the reed has probably suffered and will probably never hold it's pitch again and die in the near future.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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barbequebob
659 posts
Apr 01, 2010
9:49 AM
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The Seydel 1847 now also comes in two other configurations: The Silver Plus, which basically uses the more standard ABS plastic comb with the reed plates recessed into the comb and the new Noble version which I believe has an aluminum comb, and cover plates with side vents.
The only plastic/composite type combs on the market right now that have a more wood comb like feel are the Seydel 1847 Silver and the Suzuki Manji.
As to what harps are good to learn to play with less force, the truth is ALL of them, as it's not just any one harp, be it out of the box or custom because truth be told, newbies tend to be extremely hard on harps no matter who makes them, and for that reason I recommend cheapie stuff because they need to work that out on those FIRST because if they get good playing stuff right away and develop bad playing habits immediately, the first thing they'll do is blame the instrument for their problems wheras the real cause is in their playing technique 9 times out of 10.
With retuning, before you attempt retuning, I usually recommend cleaning off the reed plate first (but obviously, make sure the reed plates have been removed from the comb FIRST) because many times an accumulation of moisture/saliva/dead skin has developed and if it lands on the free end, the pitch gets flat, and at the riveted end, it gets sharp. Once they've been cleaned, often times retuning may be unnecessary.
You don't want to have to do real retuning too often because every time you're doing it, you are removing metal from the reed and you want to avoid it if at all possible. However, if you retune it, and all the reed does is get flatter and flatter, that reed is toast and the microscopic crack that has developed in the reed (AKA stress fractures) has gotten so large that the integrity of the reed metal is totally shot and not retuneable or repairable at all.
If you use too much breath force all the time, especially if you tend to increase it ten fold when you bend notes, the stress being placed on the reed is enormous and once those stress fractures start to appear, the reed goes flatter and flatter and has weakened badly and in a worst case scenerio, can break apart where the stress fracture has formed.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
129 posts
Apr 01, 2010
1:36 PM
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Bluefinger,
did hohner make a SPECIAL 20 MS? is this an april fool? if they did i'm through with hohner. i used to be able to count on them leaving a good design alone.
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Bluefinger
161 posts
Apr 02, 2010
2:11 AM
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MP ... they did make them for a while. I don't know exactly how old this harp is but it has seen many moons come and go. I guess customers didn't like it because they discontinued an independent design and turned into a ProHarp MS with chrome covers. At that time Hohner seemed to think that the MS system is the answer to everything. I am not a fan of MS harps either but this is my last backup A harp if everything else fails. It seems to take any kind of abuse and has never even gone out of tune over the years.
I wish they would make the old non MS bluesharps again. This would be more or less an unvented MB. I still have quite a bunch of them at home ... I might try to restore them ... time for a new thread!!!
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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barbequebob
660 posts
Apr 02, 2010
5:58 AM
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The MS versions of the MB and the Sp20 were only issued in Europe and were despised heavily by pros. I was among the many players who got the prototype for the MS MB here in the US, and it was damned near universally unloved by all of us who played it and a number of big name pros wrote angry letters threatening to ditch their endorsements publicly. A similar thing happened with the MS Sp20 and so they were never issued in the US. They were god awful harps that used too hard of a brass using short slot reeds and many pros had a hard time getting a stable bend on harps tuned lower than a C.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
145 posts
Apr 02, 2010
9:45 AM
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WELL...thanks finger and bob for the info. i thought the oddest thing i'd seen was a golden melody held together with nails. then i remembered they all had nails early on.
i pulled those suckers( they're like brads for finish work) and drilled and tapped for screws.
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barbequebob
663 posts
Apr 02, 2010
11:51 AM
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The GM's and Sp20's when they first came out in 1974 were all using nails to hold the reed plates to the comb, first aluminum nails and later brass escutcheon pins and they were a bigger pain in the ass to take apart and put back together than any wood combed harp was at the time until I got a special tool made for my by now deceased chromatic player/retired tool and die maker Wilfred Doucette (who also first came out with a reed removal tool called the 3RT).
It wasn't until the late 80's to early 90's that those two finally were screw tapped instead. If you got one of those early ones and they weren't nailed flush flat to the reed plate (and a number of them had that problem, they were among the leakiest harps I ever played.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
146 posts
Apr 02, 2010
12:47 PM
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yes, i do remember the brass escutcheon pins now. even aluminum on the GMs cover plates. once you get 'em out it's no problem to tap the existing holes.
i think they used those same pins on some chros though i might be wrong.
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barbequebob
664 posts
Apr 02, 2010
1:30 PM
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On the Hohner 280's they also used that as well until the very late 80's as well. I'm pretty sure the same goes for the Chrometta series as well. Those pins/nails were god awful.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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