"Maybe he simply underestimated the diversity of the crowd."
dchurch, I think you hit on it right there. With many crowds, a political cheap shot is a way to get the crowd on your side. Sometimes it backfires, as it apparently did with Ben where he set himself up to have a very bad night. I'm not saying, by the way, that Ben's motivation was to get the crowd on his side, but that it was probably not the reaction he's used to.
Like most of you, I generally prefer that musicians make their statements in their songs. Which they're generally much better at. My girlfriend and I went to see Robert Cray in Falls Church, VA this past Saturday and other than introducing the band and his trademark "Thank you so very much", he didn't say much. He did, however, play his song "Just How Low" which contains the brilliant lyric: "If you want to build a wall, Build it around yourself, Then you can sit up in your tower and we'll all have toast to your health"
Great response. Of course, I'm pretty sure he was preaching to the choir.
In the duo, Jolene and I have had some untidy stuff occur with audience members, mostly from someone who was drunk and had a "better idea" for us. Or was flat stumbling and fell onto the stage next to us, thankfully not ON us. We don't bring opinion out to a show, to us it's our business and we need not influence anyone to believe what we believe.
Also to us it would disrespect our patrons if we were to express political or religious opinion at a venue we were being paid to entertain at. Not to mention if our view was the same as our benefactor or not. This forum can be seen as a microcosm of a larger society. With that in mind I prefer not to cast aspersions, political. religious, or personal. The time I did I was quickly informed in private why I should NOT do that. It's about harmony and respect.
When confronted with any kind of heckling we just use humor and keep moving forward. Many comedians are adept at using a heckler to get more laughs.
Someone's Mama said it takes two to tango. My Mama also said if you can't say anything nice, don't say ANYthing.
I can sympathize with Harper. I hate it when people use the word “should”. Like, “you should play some Bob Dylan, you should play on the subway, you should play bla bla bla, you should do yoga...”
I don’t know why, it makes me crazy, especially if I’ve been drinking. ----------
bilzharp: I LOVE that track by Cray. I heard it only once, recently, on Sirius XM, but I said, "Man, he's nailing it." Yes: that is one way to do it. Speak in code that everybody gets.
I wish I had a longer video of Haper's episode--what led up to it, how it played out at length, what the crowd was like. Moments when stuff doesn't work, when social rituals break down into something more riotous, are always interesting and revealing. The phrase "creative destruction" has been used to characterize our age--specifically, the way in which the web world and capitalism together are leading to the undermining and sometimes upending of established systems. The same thing is true of social norms: Trump has been celebrated, by those who celebrate him, as somebody unbeholden to "how things have always been done."
I can't imagine getting into a shouting match with my audience. Then again, I can't imagine my audience shouting angrily at me; if they did, I would respond. Sterling Magee always, but always, viewed what we did, as a stage duo, as a way of creating harmony and good vibes in the audience. His favorite phrase was "everything is beautiful," meaning mannerable, orderly, peaceful, and full of GOOD energy. Not sleepy! But not riotous, either.
I thank dchurch for bringing the whole episode to our attention. This has been a good--and mannerable--discussion.
I believe the Dixie Chicks didn't even get political when they had their albums burned and people freak out. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think they said that they we're embarrassed that G Dubya was from Texas. They did go on to sell millions of more albums too. I think its fine to mix politics and music at shows or on the street corner. As for $100 a ticket or $10. What doe's the price matter? Seems pretty privileged to me. Especially if you know the artist your going to see. Damn straight I'm going to know the artist and their politics if I'm shelling out big bucks. Going to see Willie Nelson tomorrow. I'm sure he'll have something to say besides just play music. The show starts at 4:20! That made me laugh...
My understanding was that the Dixie Chicks owed a large portion of their success to the support and acceptance of those same conservative country music listeners. I had barely heard of the Dixie Chicks at the time. I had not heard any of their music until I sought it out after the big fuss. They made some great music in that genre!
Conservative former supporters took offense to varying degrees (there are always people on the extremes of any political movement who get carried away) when in 2003 the lead singer Natalie Maines stated, "We don't want this war, this violence, and we're ashamed that the President of the United States (George W. Bush) is from Texas" at a concert in London, "on foreign soil" as I heard stated at the time.
Apparently the "foreign soil" thing riled people up. Airing dirty laundry in front of outsiders is apparently frowned upon in conservative U.S. country music circles. (Many in the U.S. were still extremely upset about the 9/11 attack, which apparently has faded into insignificance in the minds of many.) Those same conservative folks also were big on supporting the troops, and took offense at the words of the singer undermining U.S. actions to a British audience. The Chicks lost their superstar status in the resulting political fallout and were rejected by many former fans.
EDIT: Bilzharp caught my error which I have now corrected. I was intending to speak about Ted Nugent, but could not recall his name and when searching mistakenly came up with Todd Rundgren, a different musician with different beliefs. Corrected below.
Ted Nugent, who once was known as a strong rock guitar player whom I had heard on FM in the Amboy Dukes and Nightranger back in the day, evolved into a wild political extremist apparently unable to exercise any self restraint in expressing his very polarized views about 2nd amendment rights and other right wing issues.
It appears to be a common occurrence for performers to choose political sides, also choosing an audience that agrees politically, disregarding performing for other potential listeners of diverse viewpoints.
****************
As I noted in posts above, my likes or dislikes about politics from the concert stage are highly unlikely to change the behavior of those who are more focused on conveying their political orthodoxy to the politically like-minded than on playing their music for the enjoyment of the general public of varying political views. I think that the art of music can bring people of varying views together rather than divide them into bickering groups.
If you are willing to alienate a potential portion of your audience to profess your political orthodoxy in stage speeches, then you have ceased trying to move people through your art and have chosen to promote division. Music CAN be used to influence others who will not choose to listen to rabid rhetoric.
I suspect that those among us here who strongly support active political discourse from the stage are themselves strongly outspoken political proponents, from whichever end of the spectrum.
The trend of politicized music performance means that those NOT seeking the political views of artists outside of song have to choose between hearing divisive political views at concerts or just not attending the concerts and keeping their money. I don't care about the artists' politics, I want to experience their musical art.
If stage politics is the new norm, I guess I will just keep my money. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Sep 11, 2018 9:55 PM
Well written Doug, I recall the incident happened in the beginning of the Dix tour, and that the controversy snowballed causing the tour to tank rather badly.
I think it's another good example of not giving enough consideration to the venue and fans.
What is the point of these polarizing comments? Are they going to be positive or productive? If for some reason an artist wants to inject their opinions or take a stand at a concert why not at least do it tactfully.
Either Natalie or Ben could have started their pitch "I know we have a crowd of diverse opinions here today... " or "We dont have to agree with each other to come together today..." Then offer a positive solution like "get out and vote", "more sanctions", "right your state congress"...
I really dont care what side they're on but why not make the point without insults and risking a riot. I do not go to concerts for a hostile atmosphere.
Kham, I agree that cost of the ticket does not matter, in general. I was thinking someone paying a premium and setting up front is more likely to be an avid fan. But that is not necessarily true.
I went club hopping in Seattle one New Year's Eve and ended up slam dancing to some pretty hostile music. They place sounded very angry but I was amazed how considerate the band and crowd was.
At one point a guitar player made his point by placing an empty TV over his head and lighting the top on fire!
I tend to skip shows where I don't agree with the politics if I think the politics are going to come up. We've got a would be local politician (he usually runs on 3rd party tickets) who is also a musician. I like some of his music but I don't agree with most of his politics, or that he is entirely sane (he's into several conspiracy theories). I wouldn't go to one of his shows because of his politics, but I don't get angry about it. Part of what he is about is his political message. I don't know how you separate out your stage banter from who you are, especially if you are someone who is prone to expounded on things! (Hmm, I might be guilty on a few occasions).
There is a difference between knowing and working the crowd and being to thine own self true though... So, for instance, if I'm in a venue where I think the crowd might share my politics I might talk politics, but if I suspected it would turn off the crowd I'd probably keep my mouth shut... but I'd expect at a show where I was the feature act that the audience might already know my politics and I'd kind of expect them to self-sort before they got there. But then again, I was raised by a mother who was there when MLK gave his I have a Dream speech, and my first show was a Pete Seeger concert.
One of my biggest regrets was not going to a show here locally that I guess got very political. (It was on election night). My understanding was it was a really powerful show. There are some songs I would only ever sing if I introduced their context. Maybe it's a different musical tradition...
But I think I'm usually pretty good at finding the temperature of the room (although I managed to bomb at least once doing stand up at an open mic!), and if a venue wanted me to keep politics out of it for a paying show, I'd keep politics out of it. I wouldn't say things I disagreed with though.
dougharps said: "Todd Rundgren, who once was known as a strong rock singer, songwriter, guitar player whom I had heard in Nazz and Utopia back in the daze, evolved into a wild political extremist apparently unable to exercise any self restraint in expressing his very polarized views about 2nd amendment rights and other right wing issues."
If you're saying that Todd Rundgren is in support of right wing issues I think you may be confusing the very left-leaning Rundgren with the very right-leaning Ted Nugent. Check out Todd's "Tin Foil Hat" that he wrote with Donald Fagen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXDKgLQUGtI
He even had a disclaimer on one of his tours that Trump supporters should not come to his show if they didn't want to be offended. Maybe Ben Harper should do the same!
You are absolutely correct, when I was trying to recall Nugent's name while posting I searched and got the wrong musician, even though I had Ted Nugent's name correct higher in this thread on page one. Since I didn't recall his bands either, I used online band info about Rundgren. I wasn't a fan of either musician, though they were OK.
Sorry for the error...
Ted Nugent was the correct name of the over the top, arrow shooting, right wing rock firebrand.
Thanks for catching that! I have noted the edit above. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Sep 11, 2018 10:03 PM
I like Nacoran's approach. Not knowing his personal views I would love to be in the audience because I want to hear his music and if he injects some social opinion I'm confidant he will at least be considerate, or not blatantly offensive.
Yes, Uncle Ted is a great example of in your face opinion. I have not been to his show but I can imagine some high octane preaching going on between songs.
I'd like to believe I'm more tolerant of controversy in lyrics verses speeches.
Lyrics from: _Cops For Fertilizer_
"So let's kill the f**king pigs If they get in our way. It'll set a good example For the children today. It'll keep 'em out of trouble Killing cops after school. WASTING COPS WILL BE THE HERO'S GOLDEN RULE."
Hmmm, Movies and video games have a rating system. I guess I would like to know if a performer is going to use language like MF, Nig, Bch... or promote violence against gays, cops...
It's great to see Artists stand up for decency and human rights. It's also a great way to clean out your fan base, kind of like a fan enema.
He's like the Ted Nugent antidote, with 1000% more class and humanity - as well as musical chops.
However, as noted above by a few posters most artists leave it to their songs to do the sociopolitical talking and keep the off-stage political commentary/support to a minimum because of "business".
Ry Cooder has some great current sociopolitical songs on his last few albums.
The trope that music should be 'just about the music" is absolute bs btw. You have no understanding of music's role throughout history if you push that line.
Work Bob Dylan's songs are rooted in the rich tradition of American folk music and are influenced by the poets of modernism and the beatnik movement. Early on, his lyrics incorporated social struggles and political protest. Love and religion are other important themes in his songs. His writing is often characterized by refined rhymes and it paints surprising, sometimes surreal imagery. Since his debut in 1962, he has repeatedly reinvented his songs and music. Bob Dylan has also written prose, including his memoirs 'Chronicles'.
In Austin and around the world, folks wear bracelets proclaiming WWWD. What Would Willie Do? Today we know what he’ll do in November. Let’s hope many Texans follow Willie’s example on November 6th.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Sep 13, 2018 9:08 PM
@dougharps "It is not BS to ask for music without political rants,"
No, it's not but some people make statements that all music should be like that that. That's total rubbish is my point. And it is rubbish, bs or whatever - historically and objectively so.
Do your homework before buying tickets, and understand the type of artist you are going to see. If you may be in any way offended then don't go. Buying a ticket and then complaining about it later is just as much bs. Buy the ticket take the ride. That's what art is supposed to be.
The onus is also on the artists to telegraph their intent as well though. It's not very ethical to take money from people and piss them off without warning.
That said, Dylan going electric at Newport was an awesome move!
Unifying and healing starts with recognizing basic human equality. The politics of fascism, hate, and fear are not "politically different views" btw - we fought two world wars over that last century.
For something a little more contemporary and musically relevant ->
Jesus and Woody - Ry Cooder (Album: The Prodigal Son, 2018)
Well bring your old guitar And sit here by me 'Round the heavenly throne Drag out your Oklahoma poetry 'Cause it looks like the war is on
And I don't mean a war for oil Or gold, or trivial things of that kind But I heard the news, the vigilante man Is on the move this time
So sing me a song 'bout This Land Is Your Land And fascists bound to lose You were a dreamer, Mr. Guthrie And I was a dreamer too
Once I spoke of a love for those who hate It requires effort and strain Vengeance casts a false shadow of justice Which leads to destruction and pain
Some say I was a friend to sinners But by now you know it's true Guess I like sinners better than fascists And I guess that makes me a dreamer too
In the year of 1945 You saw the killers fall Many fought and died But it's the innocent ones I most recall
Well I've been the Savior now for such a long time And I've seen it all before You good people better get together Or you ain't got a chance anymore
Now they're starting up their engine of hate Don't it make you feel lonesome and blue? Yes I was a dreamer, Mr. Guthrie And you were a dreamer too
I can't help but notice that some of the biggest "pundits" on this thread recently seem to be sneaking in their political views as well, even though it is against the forum policy....
I got a taste of this last night from the angle of being on stage with a co-frontman who decided to have a rant about a local development proposal. I didn’t disagree with his stance but I did object to his spontaneous decision to use my stage as his platform. I thought it was disrespectful of the venue and the audience and (most importantly) me. When we are the band on stage I think there is an element of co-identity. We have one name and 2 frontmen. I play harp and sing, and often I find myself between songs, consulting a set list, looking for the harp and catching my breath. On stage I’m thinking how to engage the audience and get people dancing and dropping some cash at the bar. I kind of approach that aspect as my job. I don’t see it as a platform. I’m actually quite surprised to discover this. I always thought I was just a mouthy prick with a bad attitude but I see it’s been many years since that was true. I’m not really ‘holding it in’. I speak up when I think it’s right to do so. I think when I have 50 people in a cafe/bar who have come along to dance and listen to my band, that’s the time to play and sing in the best way I can and my stage patter should facilitate the possibility of the audience having a good time. Friday night after work, down on the waterfront. I didn’t say anything. Nothing I could have said would have made it better. I just sent an old-fashioned look across the stage and blew my harp.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Sep 15, 2018 3:29 AM
Diamonds and dogs, boys and girls Living together in two separate worlds Following leaders up mountains of shame Looking for someone to blame I know who I like to blame...
@Komuso "kind of a fan enema." I love it. That is absolutely hilarious. @dougharps I agree with promoting healing and unity. That should be paramount when considering etiquette and how to come across on stage.
I am a big fan of speaking my mind and a bigger fan of doing it tactfully. The etiquette of talking politics on a stage should be of utmost importance. Soft, well spoken and solution based. Light comedy is a good way to end off a statement as is just going right into a song the second your done speaking so things don't get a chance to linger too long and later it might settle in. The silence before the music starts again after such potentially divisive staetments can make applause happen and create division. If the music starts up right away, this takes applause out of the equation and the realization of division amongst the folks that are there purely for the music.
I must say that I often wish that celebrities, stars, famous people would speak up. They have the spotlight. Why not use it for something productive and positive? Again, soft spoken, intelligent identification of a problem followed by easy, positive solutions.
Healing and unity to all of us perfectly imperfect human beings!
I suspect that most people are just dandy with political statements during a performance . . . so long as the statement in question matches their professed ideology.
Personally, I don't like any of it. For me, music, movies, sporting events, etc are intended to be an escape from the hot-blooded, manipulative, and often uninformed rantings of both the left and the right.
The need for entertainers to inject politics into a performance strikes me as probably being more about ego than about heart-felt belief. ----------
"Humor is always the first victim of political correctness."
No, they are in direct reference to the previous post to it, especially the last line. I could equally have posted music videos about many other social topics. If you want nice music with no social commentary (or banal commentary), listen to pop.
In regard to Kosumo's reference, the original topic at hand regarded entertainers injecting political commentary outside of their performance/art (using the stage as nothing more a political soapbox . . . sheer punditry with no artistic value). That's a one-sided conversation on the part of the performer . . . nothing more than a egotistical tantrum or juvenile diatribe.
I fully support commentary of any sort within the art - lyrics, painting, film, theater, etc. In this case, I'm discussing the actions of the entertainer that have nothing to do with the art or performance
"Nice" music is a phrase I assume you're using in straw man fashion. I've not seen anyone advocate that the contents of the art itself be hindered or repressed in any manner. ----------
"Humor is always the first victim of political correctness."
@Rontana It's not that black and white though. It's a continuum of discourse, but where is the line drawn? What if their identity is tied to social and/or political activism? It's up to you to assess the artist for what they may do.
Thus . . . as we're at an impasse, I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree, and leave it at that (a concept I dearly wish society as a whole could come to grasp) ----------
"Humor is always the first victim of political correctness." ----------
"Humor is always the first victim of political correctness."
People used to do the real soapbox thing on street corners. No admission charge and one could walk past, stay, or cross the street to avoid something perceived as unsavory or disagreeable. In this current iteration people pay money to be entertained. Which I have done, and which occasionally people have paid a cover to see me among other band or duo members. They didn't pay $$$-a-plate to be at a political rally or campaign barbecue. The shows I do are for people of like HEART, not necessarily like MINDS. They came in as givers to a charitable cause, say to send love to hurricane or earthquake victims. Or for someone who has huge medical bills or lost a home to fire. Or just to have some fun and hear some cool music. I see my job as spreading some small bit of joy to those who want it.
What started this thread was a description of a disturbing phenomenon that has been building- this time- for several decades. To my eye we are seeing- and maybe getting involved with- neo-tribalism. One symptom is that if "I" am not on "your" side and actively participating in your agenda, I must be the devil and must be eliminated, from having a voice or influence on the populace. Genghis Khan and many key figures used this tool to promote their ends, good, bad, or indifferent. This is a very old tool. "Common" people can be used to foster this attitude and bring undecideds to the fold.
I can't add anything else that will mean much here so I'm not going to look any further at this thread. I came here and still come here for the music aspect. For the same reason I don't involve myself in the "take a knee" controversy, I choose not to participate in this one any further. Good luck to you all.
Came across this just now, which seems relevant to people that just want to tune out entirely from what's going on. Issues won't get fixed that way, you need to engage, even on a small level.
Seems there is a positive movement called "Bipartisan Cvivility" which may be a solution.
I'm sure there's lots of scope for great music at their events to bring people together.
Not long ago, I was standing up front at an outdoor blues show when, during a lull in the music, a women beside me yelled, "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!". You could have heard a pin drop and it seemed all eyes turned in my direction. It was one of the funniest things to happen to me in recent memory.
@Komuso. Nobody here said they want to tune out entirely from what's going on. Many singers/songwriters think their audiences are intelligent enough to pick up on their messages through the lyrics of their songs. Bob Dylan, who was considered the number one protest singer back in the day, did not make speeches between songs. In fact he rarely talked between songs at all. He lets his music do his talking for him.
Last Edited by DanP on Sep 18, 2018 6:08 PM
>>Bob Dylan, who was considered the number one protest singer back in the day, did not make speeches between songs. In fact he rarely talked between songs at all. He lets his music do his talking for him.
I think Dylan is great, and his Nobel prize was well deserved. But songs as a protest are just as controversial as getting up on stage and speaking your view. It really isn't black and white, as I stated to @Rontana.
Take Hurricane, a fantastic song but controversial depending on the way you look at it. Was it about highlighting Racism in the law, or did it bend the truth about Rubin Carter, or did it use poetic license of the latter to highlight the former? Or did he completely bend the truth to highlight the former? If so, does that make it "right"?
I loved that song, but I can't listen to it anymore without it invoking a range of emotions now I know it may be partly or totally false - despite its overall +ve impact in highlighting the racist policing.
Komuso, it would be a cooler kangaroo if you could ride in the pouch!
I find it interesting that I can take a pretty good guess at what people's politics are by how they argue, even if they don't express a political opinion. There are studies that show that when someone with a different opinion than you starts yelling at you for your opinions you actually become more entrenched in your beliefs. I think that's something we need to remember.
To take the politics out of it a bit, what do people think about stage banter in general? To me, that's part of the performance. I have, on a couple occasions, done stand up at open mics. I've got a filthy joke based on a true story and some limericks based on local towns. I've deliberately moved when I go up back to later in the evening at coffee houses so I can tell that joke with no kids around. When my band would play open mics I usually had the least setting up to do so I would do the patter to keep the audience engaged until the rest of the band was ready to start.
So, some people here are saying politics are off the table just as a flat out rule... how about dirty jokes? Or religion- that is, not political religion like what people are or aren't supposed to do with their bodies but "I'd like to thank God for my children. I wrote them this song praising him for them." Or "Hey, I'm going to the bar next door after the show if anyone wants to buy me shots?" (Or cake... if you know who Fluffy is...)
Yes, you can turn off part of your audience with just about anything, but you can also engage with your audience. I went to an excellent show a couple years ago... the thing was choreographed down to the last detail. The music was excellent, lots of songs I grew up with, but I felt kind of empty at the end of the show... the musician (Weird Al!) hadn't stopped to talk to the audience at all. I mean, yeah, it was great, but there was no connection. He's a fascinating dude and I would have loved to hear him tell some stories. I've seen Tori Amos in concert and she excels at banter (although I saw her go off on some semi-political stuff and not have it go over well... it caused a couple people to walk out). She has a great erotic story about what one of her songs is about (involving a girlhood crush on Robert Plant).
So, you've got several questions... honestly, as great as Weird Al was I couldn't give the show top marks because it seemed like an extravaganza, not a sharing of music. To me, that's supposed to be why you go to see the original bands perform songs instead of cover bands.
The patter is part of the show. You can say the patter detracts from the music, but to me they are all the same. The music I listen to is about the experience of the band, about them baring their souls. And yes, that can mean it turns off some people... but I think it makes other fans stronger fans. You can, if you want, perform some cynical career calculus and decide if a particular point of view will help or hurt your cause. I suspect both the Dixie Chicks and Ted Nugent damaged their careers with their outbursts. Ted even got himself a visit from the Secret Service for some of his comments. But I think there is some cynical calculus going on if you heavily censor yourself on stage to win audience approval too, if that's part of who you are, and I'm not convinced that it is bad for your career in general if you speak up... there are certainly examples of people who have lost fans but there are other people who have built their careers on it. Sometimes it's even people who have been listening to you say it in your songs for years but weren't really listening, like with Willie Nelson.
Artists are people. When I'm up on stage I'm trying to express myself. Lyric writers hopefully have something profound to say, in rhyme or otherwise. Let them say it. It's not like you bought the rights to their soul. If they play their music, well, that's what you paid for. If they interject politics into their show and you don't like that, spend your money somewhere else, but don't pretend it's some hard and fast rule they are breaking. They are doing something that you don't like in the shows you go to. Personally I don't like Doors covers. If a band does a lot of Doors covers I won't go to their next show. No big deal.
Now, there are some jobs where you really have to try to stay neutral... if I've failed at that as an admin today, I apologize... funny story... we've only ever, I think, had one person kicked off the forum for good for refusing to stay away from the third rail of politics... and it was someone from 'my side' as it were. There may be some going around in circles right now, so if you get bored with the ride, just hop off and leave the lights on for the rest of us. If you hear yelling, get one of the adults.
I've never really subscribed to that old trope of "never discuss politics or religion at [insert here]". I think the failure to honestly discuss issues to do with both (and other issues) over the years is why we are in such a terribly divisive state now-days with people wedded to positions tightly bound to their psychological identity making it impossible to change. They have been molded by deliberate persistent media exposure designed to fracture, not heal.
Saw this tweet today that also summed up why (one of the main culprits):
American politics - Fucked British politics - Fucked Australian politics - Fucked
