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Charlie Musselwhite - review, etiquette...
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dchurch
180 posts
Aug 26, 2018
9:03 AM
Charlie Musselwhite was incredible last night during his performances at the Maryhill Vinyard near Goldendale, Washington. The crowed literally screamed how much they loved this man, to the point that it was almost annoying at times. Although guitarist/singer Ben Harper appeared to be leading the show Charlie Musselwhite was clearly the star. Charlie’s numbers and solos were waves of the heart and soul of the blues. I felt so honored to witness this living legend.

Unfortunately I have mixed feeling of the concert overall.

First IMO Ben Harper’s showcased himself way to much and his “blues” were pretty far off the mark. I heard a bunch of like-minded comments during breaks, and even a few shouts “Bring on the blues” and “Charlie, Charlie, Charlie…”

To make matters worse I guess Ben thinks that a blues concert is a good place to spout politics. Of course it was a diverse crowd so his derogatory political comments caused a mix of cheers and boos and I’m sure uncomfortable if not angry strangers sitting next to each other. Even the band seemed uncomfortable.

Later Ben lost his cool with one fan near the front row who I guess yell out for a particular guitar to be played. I didn’t hear the fan but that’s what Ben spent time scolding her or him about over the mic. Ironically one of Ben’s comments to the fan was “Don’t tell me what guitar to play” “People didn’t come here to listen to that shit” (20 minutes earlier he was preaching politics, and now he’s using the sound system to scold a fan)

It was not shaping up to be the epic concert I was dreaming about.

Lucky for us there were some technical difficulties with the audio cutting out, or maybe a stage hand did it on purpose. Anyway, the band left the stage. I think that may have given them time to regroup because late in the 4th quarter Charlie busted out, took over the stage and saved the entire show. He pulled it off like a true master. I witnessed it from 3rd row seats.

Charlie had the crowd roaring and jumping up dancing… people were going crazy rushing up towards the stage and clearing folding chairs out of the way. Charlie Musselwhite is the real deal!!!

Sorry Ben, no offence to your musicianship.

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It's about time I got around to this.
Thievin' Heathen
1052 posts
Aug 26, 2018
10:22 AM
I was priced out when Charlie Musselwhite last came to Dallas a couple of months ago. I forget what the price was, but it was just a little too steep.

I wonder.., since you were 3rd row, did it occur to you to use the old, "SHUT UP AND SING"?
dchurch
181 posts
Aug 26, 2018
10:59 AM
Thievin' Sorry you missed it, ya tickets were not cheap. That was another reason I was irked. And if you are sharing the stage with Charlie Musselwhite show some class and respect... Anyway no I couldn't do it even if I'd like to. But I heard a lot of random shouts during the political comment including "f**k you!"

I wish you would have been here. I ended up with one extra ticket that I tried to give away at the last minute. It ended up being an expensive seat to set our drinks on.

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It's about time I got around to this.
Thievin' Heathen
1053 posts
Aug 26, 2018
11:13 AM
I was at a John Moreland show last night. Okie folk from Tulsa. John Calvin Abney for multi-instrumental backup. Real good stuff. Small(300 seat max) theater.
dchurch
182 posts
Aug 26, 2018
11:20 AM
Nice! Good live music + small venue = a great time.


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It's about time I got around to this.
DanP
393 posts
Aug 26, 2018
2:54 PM
This country (USA) seems to be more divided now than any time since the Vietnam war. So someone going on a political rant before a crowd is bound to piss somebody off. I don't mind it if a singer puts political viewpoints into a song or a performer gives speeches before political organizations but making blatant partisan speeches before paying customers, I don't care for even if I agree with his or her politics. I'm a strong believer in free speech but there is a time and place for every thing. Just my opinion and I'm sorry if I went off-topic.
The Iceman
3656 posts
Aug 26, 2018
4:29 PM
In today's toxic political environment, people might go to an expensive music concert to enjoy an evening of pure entertainment and get away from the sniping.

Rory Gallagher played a concert in Northern Ireland in the middle of the Catholic/Protestant fighting era. Since he was so beloved by all Irish folk, both sides showed up at his event en masse and enjoyed the concert. Of course, the next day they resumed fighting, but at least they united for one night over music.
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The Iceman
jbone
2681 posts
Aug 26, 2018
8:40 PM
In all the years I've gone to live shows I can think of just one time any comments were made off the music topic, and it was King Biscuit 2001. From stage a couple of artists said things to the effect that "nobody can keep us from loving each other". Folks in the audience were much more vocal about "Taliban hunts" etc. Understandable considering the wound we all suffered a month before the fest in Helena.

I expect someone I pay money to see, to be professional and keep their opinions to themselves unless it's part of a song. If I want politics I'll find a rally or bring my soapbox to a busy corner.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.

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jbone
2682 posts
Aug 26, 2018
8:41 PM

Last Edited by jbone on Aug 27, 2018 3:51 AM
jbone
2683 posts
Aug 26, 2018
8:41 PM

Last Edited by jbone on Aug 27, 2018 3:51 AM
BnT
182 posts
Aug 27, 2018
12:39 AM
dchurch -
I used to hear a lot of politics from on stage musicians in the 60's, not from the blues guys, because they were typically older and not subject to the Vietnam war (though their kids or grandkids might be). But audiences seemed to understand either because they were predominantly young so the Vietnam war effected them directly or because they were stoned and cheered for everything.

Your situation is probably very different - a mixed age audience, a very polarized & divided populous, people coming to hear Charlie's playing, not caring about some other musician's version of blues or politics. And an artist arguing with the audience? Not too professional.

I realize it's Harper's moment with a captive audience, but even if I agree that Harper's target is uncivil, immoral, unfit to hold office, and the centerpiece of a corrupt administration, I bought my $75 ticket to hear Charlie Musslewhite play blues, not to listen to Harper. If I want politics I can listen to NPR or read the Washington Post online...and spend my $75 to download some good blues.

Sorry you had a bum experience. Maybe by your next concert we can Make America Sane Again.
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BnT
JSalow
45 posts
Aug 27, 2018
12:40 PM
You don't have the right to tell an artist what he should or shouldn't talk about at his own show. You paid your money to see him and whatever he chooses to play or discuss. If you don't like it don't see him again.

Last Edited by JSalow on Aug 27, 2018 12:41 PM
jbone
2685 posts
Aug 27, 2018
12:42 PM
I DO have a right- it's called voting with my wallet.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.

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CarlA
971 posts
Aug 27, 2018
1:07 PM
@jsalow

Than why does an artist or Hollywood scum have the right to forcefully voice their opinion? Most people DONT want to hear it.
I am sick to the teeth of these “celebrities”, artists, and Hollywood nonsense types spouting their nonsense BS and rhetoric while hypocritically living in their own microcosm of fairyland.

These “celebrities” are paid to sing, dance, chase a ball, act, and otherwise keep their pie holes shut

Last Edited by CarlA on Aug 27, 2018 1:09 PM
Sundancer
253 posts
Aug 27, 2018
5:41 PM
I absolutely could not agree with you more ClarA. It really sucks when you go in search of Musselwhite harp but instead encounter MuscleHead opinions.

Make America Musical Again.
Gnarly
2540 posts
Aug 27, 2018
7:52 PM
The problem, as I see it, is that everyone wants to do the right thing.
And nobody can agree on what that is.
I am reminded of David Crosby, who always wants to volunteer his opinion.
Lotta folks don't want his opinion.
Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
That, by the way, is intended as humor.
dchurch
183 posts
Aug 27, 2018
11:37 PM
Great feedback!

No, I don’t claim to have a right to tell an artist what to sing about. But I think it was flat rude and irresponsible to blurt an acidic political opinion into a crowd of otherwise happy campers. Ben should have known it would put people in the crowd against each other. I didn’t see any fights break out but it wouldn’t have shocked me. The venue encouraged drinking.

Yes I’m a huge believer in voting with my wallet. In this case we drove about 480 miles round trip, spent 3 days in the area, I bought 3 tickets in the high rent section, and we purchased a $30 bottle of the sponsor’s wine. Then halfway through the concert Ben takes advantage of a captive audience and uses the microphone to throw a political stink bomb into the crowd. For what purpose?

I guess before the doctor puts Ben under for surgery it would be okay to take a stab at his religious beliefs. Hey dude freedom of speech, if you don’t like it don’t come back. Haha

If Ben wanted to do a PSA it should have been about the dangers of drinking and driving. It was pretty scary watching the crowd hit the road after this one.

BnT, agreed. But, the concert was far from a bummer because I witnessed a master in action, incredible Mr. Musselwhite.

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It's about time I got around to this.
6SN7
806 posts
Aug 28, 2018
7:03 AM
"These "celebrities are paid to sing, dance, chase a ball, act and otherwise keep their pie holes shut."

"I expect someone I pay money to see, to be professional and keep their opinions to themselves unless it's part of the song."



I think Ben Harper music speaks for him and the truth.

"These days I speak in whispers
Travel only to and from
Come close you'll see the red
Of a well bitten tongue
The righteous and the wretched
The holy and the damned
Is there no mercy in this land?
No mercy in this land?"

Ben Harper "No Mercy In This Land"

Last Edited by 6SN7 on Aug 28, 2018 9:47 AM
dougharps
1816 posts
Aug 28, 2018
8:01 AM
If the performer is performing at a rally, fundraiser, or benefit for a specific cause that they support, exercising their freedom of expression of ideas in support of the cause, even those opinions with which I disagree, seems acceptable. The context determines what is OK.

If the original songs performed by an artist at a concert reflect the viewpoint of the song writer, so be it, even if I hold a contrary opinion. If the artist performs the songs of others that reflect their views, fine. The songs are part of the art. It is OK for art to challenge our perceptions. If I strongly disagree with the vocal content of songs, I probably will seek other entertainment in the future.

If I pay for a musical performance by a touring artist and the music is interrupted by political diatribes of any nature, left or right, then they are not fulfilling their end of the implied contract. The audience pays for the musical performance, not a political lecture by someone who may or may not have credibility. Performers who politicize via lectures between songs are dividing the audience by political posturing, not engaging them all in common appreciation of the music.

So if I pay to hear you play a show, please restrict expression of your viewpoint to your songs, whatever your views may be. Please stop the political lectures in between them. You will not change anyone's views in that way.

If I go to a show I pay for the musical performance, not to hear soap box political evangelism from the theater stage.
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Doug S.
Sundancer
254 posts
Aug 28, 2018
8:33 AM
In all seriousness, this is a very complicated & contentious subject - not even Steve Van Zandt and Bruce Springsteen, lifelong friends & bandmates, could agree on the validity of the cast of Hamilton lecturing Mike Pence.

https://fox45now.com/news/entertainment/bruce-springsteen-lends-support-to-hamilton-cast-amid-rift-with-bandmate
Rontana
491 posts
Aug 28, 2018
8:43 AM
Maybe entertainers need a rating system, like the movies. Satirically speaking, I suggest

G - Good time for all
PG 13 - political but still good, unless your emotional knee-jerk reflex is that of a 13 year old.
R & B #1 - Red political opinions will be offered
R & B #2 - Blue political opinions will be uttered
X - No politics but probably sex on stage
XXX - Politics AND sex on stage . . . which means you're at a long-in-the-tooth Madonna concert and will never be unable to see sights that will surely scar the mind



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"Humor is always the first victim of political correctness."

Last Edited by Rontana on Aug 28, 2018 8:48 AM
CarlA
973 posts
Aug 28, 2018
12:02 PM
that was a good idea to delete your last post brother ;)
LSC
787 posts
Aug 30, 2018
9:14 AM
To those who say there is no room for politics from a performer in whatever may be defined as a concert I have but two words, "Woody Guthrie".

Having said that, I believe a musical performers job is to take us someplace outside the daily bullshit of whatever is messing up or lives individually or the world around us. But an artist is an artist and by definition should pretty much do what he/she damn well pleases without censorship by some unwritten rule. Still, there are consequences which must be accepted. If Harper went on for 20 minutes, yeah, I'd be annoyed too. A point can be made with a joke that takes 20 seconds then move on. Banging on for 20 minutes is just self indulgent and likely counterproductive.

Getting into a verbal with a rude fan is unprofessional. Dealing with hecklers comes with the territory. One should have an arsenal of clever put downs. One zinger and move on. I was at a show in Holland with a band out of LA, Venice. Great vocal band. One of the guys was trying to introduce a song called "Family Tree" which is about the family tree continues to survive even though one branch may die. it's a song that became popular at funerals including the Venice being asked to sing it at a disaster memorial in Holland. Some American twat, I'm American BTW, in the crowd kept interrupting, shouting for a Venice uptempo Stones cover. Mark, the singer, finally responded."Sorry man, we're only allowed to play crap." The audience immediately laughed and turned on the heckler and the show went on.

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LSC
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LSC

Last Edited by LSC on Aug 30, 2018 9:17 AM
Thievin' Heathen
1054 posts
Aug 30, 2018
6:06 PM
I think this discussion is pointless. You will neither shut up nor shut down any artist(s). I don't want to. It is insulting to me to insinuate that purchasing a ticket to an artist's show should in some way obligate them to perform or behave as I expect. I am not buying a piece of them. I am paying for the experience. Now, if I don't enjoy the experience, I probably won't be buying it again, but they know that. But, on the other hand, my beliefs and opinions are subject to change and I am usually willing to hear a second opinion.
dougharps
1819 posts
Aug 30, 2018
7:46 PM
@Thievin' Heathen

With regard to affecting the behavior of a performing artist, you are correct, "this discussion is pointless." No amount of discussion here will change the artist's sense of entitlement to lecture the audience during their show if they so choose, whether or not they may alienate part of the audience who paid to attend.

With regard to gathering forum opinions regarding political discourse from the stage during an expensive paid performance, it is interesting to hear the different perspectives of those who post.

With regard to raising my awareness that I really should read up on an artist's political stage behavior during their performances in order to determine if I want to spend large amounts of money to hear them, it is very useful.

I will read up on shows I am considering attending before spending the cash. I don't want to hear views from the right or from the left presented during a concert other than in content of the songs.
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Doug S.
The Iceman
3660 posts
Aug 31, 2018
4:23 AM
That "political discourse" coming from someone who I hoped would purely entertain me has sure changed the way I feel about "celebrities" and certain "artists".

I won't even watch (or go to the) movies that feature folk that I used to really enjoy, nor do I care to watch football games any longer.

Those people have taken all the fun out of fun.
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The Iceman
kudzurunner
6507 posts
Aug 31, 2018
5:21 AM
At the risk of leading us to breach the forum rules, and therefore with the moderators' forbearance, I'd like to note something very strange about this thread: nobody has actually described, in so many words, what Ben Harper said. Many people have characterized it negatively: a "stinkbomb" of "politics." But I still don't know what he said.

My guess, based on several of those who have danced around the subject here, is that he said something pointedly negative against President Trump.

Is that right? dchurch: As majordomo of this site and forum, I hereby give you a pass to be explicit. What did he say that you found so upsetting and inappropriate at a blues event?

I do NOT want this thread to become a place where we debate the merits of what he said. I want us to stay more meta than that. I want us to bracket what he said as "political speech" and then, if others are motivated to do so, argue whether that sort of speech, whether right-leaning or left-leaning, can appropriately be inserted into musical events. Blues events, in particular.

My strong feeling is that such speech IS appropriate at blues events, but only if the person giving it realizes a) that not everybody will agree and that some may strongly disagree; and b) that what is sauce for the goose must of necessity be sauce for the gander--meaning that if left-leaning politics is injected into blues events, we should expect right-leaning politics (like a strident assertion of a desire to "kick Saddam's ass") to be injected into, for example, country music events.

Oh yeah. That's right. That's been happening for a long time. Toby Keith, etc.

I've just finished a new book on the blues, and one thing it does is explore racial tensions in the contemporary blues scene, including Corey Harris's famous blog entry, "Can White People play the blues?," on his "Blues is BLACK music" blog. One thing I talk about is white blues fans who have what I call a pastoral view of the blues. They want the blues to be a place where they can escape from talk about race and politics. They want the blues to be an escape from all that. Black people, of course, CAN'T get away from "race"; they're made to feel their racial embodiment in a range of ways, every day. For the last five years, a number of African American blues performers have started making their politics and cultural politics more overt. Such performers and advocates are actively pissed off by the meme "No black. No white. Just the blues." I talk about that phrase--the hunger for friendly interracialism that it expresses, but also the way in which, from a black perspective, it erases black history and the blackness of the very performers, the "classics," who form the beating heart of the tradition. I put that meme or slogan in conversation with Harris's "Blues is BLACK music." I critique that second phrase in a range of ways, but I also take the sentiment seriously. The point is that among a rising cohort of African American blues artists, there's something wrong with the contemporary blues scene, a scene dominated by whites in almost every respect. I try to think all this stuff through. (The book will be called "Blues Talk: Making Sense of the Music in a New Millennium.")

What's amusing about this thread is that Living Blues magazine's most recent issue is entitled "Blues and Protest." The articles talk about a wide range of black artists, both contemporary and historical, who have used the music to protest. Protest is hardly a submerged theme in the music! Yet this thread begins with a complaint about a contemporary artist who has dared to....protest! Dared to inject a bit of political talk into his stage talk.

So I'd like to know what he actually said. And again, I'll reiterate a point I've made above: The point is NOT to debate the merits of what he said. The point is to debate the idea that politics of any sort, leftish or rightish, has a legitimate place in a blues artist's stage-talk (and songs, for that matter). I personally think it does--and I think it takes bravery, since it clearly risks that artist losing some fans and merch sales.



Here's Aki Kumar's new song about Trump, btw:



Here are the lyrics, reprinted from his website:

All Bark No Bite - Hindi Man Blues - Track 6

Original lyrics by Aki Kumar
Dedicated to the orange imbecile, POTUS #45
Song link - https://youtu.be/DCDro0UYCCw

Now looky here, man. Don’t you kid yourself
You say we need fixin’? But you’re the one who needs help
Actin’ high and mighty, an entitled fool
Got a big-name degree, but we’ll take you to school

[Chorus] You’re just a barking dog, But you ain’t got no bite
Now that you’ve taken us on, you're gonna lose this fight

A fast-food connoisseur, more ketchup than steak
Like that rug on you head boy, you’re just a flimsy fake
Now all your talk is cheap, Your "best words" are just lies
Your bluster don’t scare us, boy, we’ll cut you down to size

[Chorus]

You talk a big game, wavin’ tiny, little hands
Still a low-class billionaire, with a 2 dollar tan
All your huffin’ & a puffin’, ain’t nothing but a whole lotta jive
You’re just a big ol' ZERO, actin' like 45

[Chorus]

Now you’re stumblin’ and stutterin’, as you fall on your face
And the only thing you’re winning, man, is a shot at last place
You’re a historic blunder, a blemish and a stain
But soon you’ll be forgotten, and we’ll be great again


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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 31, 2018 5:35 AM
The Iceman
3661 posts
Aug 31, 2018
5:39 AM
My "unnamed source close to the investigation" has indicated that yes, the comment was an anti Trump type of comment...

Two things, however....

1. It's possible that Ben's comment wasn't as long a rant as posted above.

2. The "dressing down of the fan regarding guitar" just might go with the territory of an artist trying to play the next song and being "bullied" by a heckler to do what he wants.
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The Iceman
6SN7
808 posts
Aug 31, 2018
8:11 AM
I saw Ben Harper and Charlie Musselwhite at the Newport Folk Festival this summer. During their afternoon performance there was some political comment regarding Trump but none of it distracted from an excellent performance. Both Harper and Musselwhite are long time social activists and I was not surprised by the comments. I have attended many shows over the years and heard lots of performers use the stage to voice their opinions. I don't have a problem with it.
tomaxe
137 posts
Aug 31, 2018
8:13 AM
Thank you 6SN7 and kudzurunner for excellent posts and adding some sanity to the conversation.
There is a bit of a disturbing "shut up and dribble" aspect to this and in my opinion that's always a dangerous path to go down...particularly when it comes to artistic expression.
I'm sorry the original poster had a bad time...that happens sometimes...the "incredible Mr Musselwhite" (and he IS incredible) is a political animal (check out Mark Hummel's book) and was known to have a few lousy chaotic performances back in the day. It happens to us all. Ben Harper and Musselwhite's recordings have some ominous, dark blues on them.
Folk music, particularly blues music, can be a messy business.
I thank my lucky stars every day for that.
dougharps
1821 posts
Aug 31, 2018
8:29 AM
Meta:
I don't think that it is fair to ask for the Ben Harper specifics as it applies pressure to a forum member to disclose their political viewpoint on the forum.
*****************

Being of the Cynical Party, I am disgusted by political posturing on stage from any political viewpoint. I am sick of lies and distortions from left and right perspectives. I do not believe that the ends justifies the means. It is NOT OK to spread lies and distortions in support of your causes.

I really don't care to hear about the political views of musicians other than what they present via the content of their songs. That I can accept, regardless of viewpoint.

Dixie Chicks, Ted Nugent or whatever, I should not have to pay big bucks to be subjected to a political lecture. Tell me you point of view in your songs, not in a speech.

At a fundraiser, benefit, or free concert, do whatever you want. I can either bear with it or leave. But not if I lay down serious money for a performance.

Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 31, 2018 8:33 AM
tomaxe
138 posts
Aug 31, 2018
10:02 AM
@dougharps:
"I really don't care to hear about the political views of musicians other than what they present via the content of their songs....tell me you point of view in your songs, not in a speech"

That seems weird to me. What if "their point of view" includes both songs and speaking?
dougharps
1822 posts
Aug 31, 2018
10:50 AM
@tomaxe

It is a fine line, and perhaps a bit picky on my part.

If the artist advertises their expensive performance as a musical performance, then that is my expectation: music, not a political opinion lecture from a musician. If they include their views in the songs, I am still getting the music I came for, even if I don't care for the lyrical content.

This is especially the case if lots of money is involved. Dollars are a way of storing saved hours of my work efforts. I want to use those saved hours in a way that seems worth while to me. To me, anything over $30 to $40 is a significant payment for a show.

If I deliberately seek out a political presentation and pay for it, then that is my choice.

If I seek out musical performance and pay for it, then musical performance what I am paying for, not a political speech from the performer.

I realize that my opinion on this is of no concern to any musician dedicated to spreading the word of their beliefs which they inevitably believe to be of great value and indisputably true.

It just seems like bait and switch or false advertising to promote a musical performance and then usurp the time I have paid for to present their political opinions in a speech. I go to musical performances to hear music.
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Doug S.
CarlA
975 posts
Aug 31, 2018
11:56 AM
So Ben Harpers a social activist, huh?! I would be interested to know how much of his own money and resources are fed into changing the gun violence in america, especially areas like Chicago. How much is he investing in child trafficking, the homeless, child poverty, domestic violence, gang related crimes, hatred/racism related issues, etc.

I find that so many times talk is cheap, and just an easy way to seem hip and trendy.

Our problems in America started WAY before the current administration.

.....all he’s doing in politically ranting is to pander to a certain group of individuals. Nothing more ....it changes NOTHING!!!!

Last Edited by CarlA on Aug 31, 2018 11:57 AM
kudzurunner
6508 posts
Aug 31, 2018
12:19 PM
I still have no idea what Harper said that so offended dchurch. I'd rather not be forced to guess.

Here's how dchurch characterized Harper's talk: "I think it was flat rude and irresponsible to blurt an acidic political opinion into a crowd of otherwise happy campers. Ben should have known it would put people in the crowd against each other."

I hate the guessing thing. That's one of Trump's virtues: our current president doesn't just hint! He doesn't make you guess. He blurts acidic political opinions. He makes his feelings very clear. It sounds as though Harper basically echoed Trump. And of course that WOULD get blue-state people upset.

But I hate being asked to guess.
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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 31, 2018 12:22 PM
CarlA
976 posts
Aug 31, 2018
12:26 PM
@kudzrunner
Sounds like you did just guess ;)
kudzurunner
6509 posts
Aug 31, 2018
12:27 PM
We live in a time when the blues--and blues concerts, too, it would appear--are being turned to new uses that are also very old uses. Me, when I'm paying my hard-earned money to attend a show, I basically just want to drink and have a good time. I want to feel as though the performer is speaking for me, so that I'm bathed in a warm glow of appreciation and soul-nourishment. I'm aware, though, that some blues artists won't give me that. Otis Taylor, for example, refuses to give that. He wants to upset and worry you. He sings about lynchings and painful things. I shook his hand once and looking into his eyes scared me in a way that I've rarely been scared. He gave off a grim reaper vibe. But that's him. B. B. King was always coming from the other direction. Albert Collins, too. Albert King, the one time I saw him, spent so much time yelling at his band that I just couldn't enjoy the show. But I'm grateful for it all--the shows that leave me feeling on top of the world and the shows that unsettle me. I prefer healing, in other words, but when a performer confuses me and throws an unexpected hurting on me, at least I leave with the sense that I've encountered something real, rather than bubblegum pop.


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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 31, 2018 12:28 PM
dougharps
1823 posts
Aug 31, 2018
12:35 PM
I doubt that what Ben Harper said was beyond the kind of thing I hear all the time around here in a liberal college town. I just shrug it off when it is a local thing: no big deal.

If the talking went on for very long it would begin to annoy me, because I go out for the music. People are entitled to their views. Tell me in a song.

If I had paid big bucks for a show it would bother me a lot. The same would apply (for me) if a musician engaged in a conservative rant at a show, or tried to convert me to their faith from on stage. I didn't come out for that, I came for music. If it is a religious song, OK, it is music.

Around here few would dare speak out voicing conservative views from on stage or even religious views. The general social context around here would not tolerate such a free expression of ideas. So around here we are much more likely to here progressive viewpoints from on stage or in songs.

If I go out for music, that is what I want to hear from the stage: music.
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Doug S.
SuperBee
5573 posts
Aug 31, 2018
6:25 PM
I dunno about your country but in this country Ben Harper is a much bigger name than Charlie Musselwhite. Charlie is known to harp players and maybe some blues fans. Ben Harper was a very well-known performer.
I would be completely unsurprised to find him leading the show. I also had the impression he was well known to have opinions and be outspoken about them.
I’d be surprised if he changed that just because he was doing a show with a harp player; especially a harp player like Charlie Musselwhite whom I gather is also not too reluctant to let people know how he feels.
Maybe it’s different there.
Sundancer
256 posts
Aug 31, 2018
7:10 PM
It is indeed, lamentably, different here Super Bb. And not just since 2016. Just ask the Dixie Chicks.
dougharps
1824 posts
Aug 31, 2018
7:41 PM
@SuperBee

From the album I bought I would say that Ben Harper is fronting the band, with Charlie Musselwhite on board as a high powered side man. Ben is the current popular performer, with Charlie as the older performer adding his considerable skills to the mix.

I enjoy the album quite a bit. They are good together. Charlie adapts to new styles well.

@Sundancer

The fevered pitch of political divisions here, and the over the top emotional reactions among those whose views differ likely has contributed to my strong focus on more music, less talk at concerts.

I am so tired of the reactive nature of each side, with so little effort being made to recognize commonalities and meet in the middle.

I have posted too much in this thread as the issue apparently carries more emotion for me than I had thought. Enough said...
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Doug S.
kudzurunner
6510 posts
Sep 01, 2018
5:34 PM
I agree with you, Doug. I'm a meet in the middle guy.


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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
Michael Rubin
1212 posts
Sep 01, 2018
6:30 PM
I appreciate a soapbox speech from any type of performer at nearly any venue even if I wildly disagree with it. I think it is very cool. I almost feel like people should be obligated to do it out of good conscience for the greater good of the people. If it really offends me, I may stop sending that performer money.

Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Sep 10, 2018 4:00 AM
dchurch
184 posts
Sep 01, 2018
8:00 PM
My original post is an overall review and look at etiquette. Sorry about the political element. In hindsight I may have been able to leave that out somehow.

Thanks SuperBee, your last post explains a lot. I was expecting Charlie Musselwhite to be more of the star. My bad, I just see him as a living legend… I honestly didn’t know that BH was into shows mixed with his politics: again, my bad.

I was not upset by what he said specifically. I don’t know him well enough to care, but I was really bummed that he instantly screwed up the pleasant mood of the crowd and turned it hostile. Maybe he simply underestimated the diversity of the crowd. IMO, his bad

I was also admittedly sensitized by the fact that earlier that day Aug. 25, 2018 Sen. John McCain died, at age 81. I really wasn’t in the mood to witness political ugliness. Yes, the tone change was disturbing to me. I would have loved to see the entire crowd react with silence. Okay I'll get off my unicorn.

Thanks Dougharps, I don’t care to form political sides. I think “my” comments reflect that it wasn’t about what B.H. specifically said. He could have put down: gay rights, religion, or white people singing the blues… and the issue of etiquette would be the same. My beef is with polarizing the crowd and creating a bummer/hostile atmosphere.

Again, I’m not suggesting censoring lyrics. Although “Strange Fruit” is dark and disturbing, it’s reasonable in assume folks will not be openly divided by it. Then there’s: Ice-T, “Fawk The Police”, Hammer “Pumps and a Bump”, Young Jeezy “Trap or Die”, Lil B “Ellen Degeneres”. I won’t be in the crowd but I suspect folks that are know what to expect and are cool with it.

Socially acceptable lines can clearly be crossed. There is a long history of regretful lyrics and outbursts, followed by complaints and apologies. I did a little surfing and found recent examples of mocking Jews and Native Americans… I read a piece at independent.co.uk where fans walked out of a Morrissey concert after some political remarks were made. I walked off a dance floor about two weeks ago when a DJ put on what I felt was some pretty crude racial and sexual lyrics (especially for a wedding reception). My daughter was there along with several other 25 year olds that I’ve known since they were born. Although 40 or 50 people were dancing to the song I noticed it ended prematurely and nothing so explicit was played again. I learned later that the bride and groom told a friend who requested the song that it was just not the right time and place for it.

The issue is etiquette, like using the mic to lay into a fan in front 3500 people when 99% of us had no idea what he was even talking about.

I happen to catch that bit on video.

Please do not link or share this video. It is posted “Unlisted” strictly for this forum topic. I plan to delete it soon. It has been edited to comply with Youtube Community Guidelines by beeping explicit language. _It’s on my personal channel, that’s why.

FYI the venue is an outdoor amphitheater at a vineyard/winery that seats 4000. I’d guess the crowd was about 3500. I’m not a total prude about bad language and if B.H. was ripping on someone that people could actually hear or at a bar… it would be somewhat different.

I also felt bad for the members of the band (blank looks), and C.M. steering clear by working in his harp case. Love that harp case!



I apologize to any Ben Harper fans. As I mentioned earlier I have no complaints about his musicianship. I even shrugged off the downside and bought a CD.

Again, to end on a positive note C.M. totally rescued this concert late in the 4th quarter. People came together at the stage dancing under summer stars and the spell of Charlie’s blues.


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It's about time I got around to this.
timeistight
2267 posts
Sep 02, 2018
7:33 AM
"I will admit to being tired of evFE79C984DE87DD54AB0C7BDDA39ECD5E0CBB2DF9FB"

Me, too, Michael; me, too!
CarlA
977 posts
Sep 02, 2018
1:51 PM
“evFE79C984DE87DD54AB0C7BDDA39ECD5E0CBB2DF9FB“


........me too too Michael and timistight, me too too!!!!

Last Edited by CarlA on Sep 02, 2018 1:52 PM
kudzurunner
6514 posts
Sep 02, 2018
7:35 PM
dchurch: Thanks for posting that! Geez. I can't tell what led up to that outburst, but that is a f--king pissed-off musician, and I'll agree: that would rub the good-time vibes off my evening in a heartbeat. That's just sheer pissed-off cussedness.

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued. It sounds as though somebody told him what guitar to play and he felt as though that request was the absolute last straw. He wants his music to be a forum of pure self-expression and he resents when his fans tell him what he should do and be. In LeRoi Jones's play "Dutchman" (1964), the young black writer Clay finally erupts at the older white seductress Lula when she hectors him and tell shim who he should be. He slaps her in the face and rages at her.

Rage at one particular person you don't know is almost always about a long history of stuff that that person has nothing to do with--except insofar as you, the raging one, decide to clump that person with all the people who have been doing s--t that pisses you off.

White people who tell black musicians what they should do and who they should be, for example.

Sounds like Ben Harper was having a bad day! That's not politics. That's just a real bad day.


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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
indigo
522 posts
Sep 02, 2018
10:53 PM
Kudzu..you nailed it
dchurch
185 posts
Sep 03, 2018
11:12 PM
Kudz,
You raised a good point about built up anger. Thinking along those lines maybe he was further fumed by the crowd’s reaction to his earlier political comments. Or maybe the person he was ripping on was sitting with a group shouting “F-you” during that part of the show. Shouts were coming from everywhere pro and con trying to outdo each other like angry protesters.

It is weird, I was pretty close to the stage and I didn’t hear anyone harassing him about what guitar to play… I can’t imagine it was very load or chronic. It was also strange that he was directing his complaint towards the front rows of reserved seating ($100+). It seems that area would be filled by devoted fans, not that that exempts them from being a PITA.

I’ve know some tormented artist that draw from that emotion. It must be tough to keep a healthy balance.

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It's about time I got around to this.
6SN7
809 posts
Sep 04, 2018
7:07 AM
As my Mom told me , "it takes two to tango."

It sounds like some members of the audience didn't like what he said and reacted to it badly. Yelling "F-you" by any measure, is poor etiquette. Based on your description that "shouts were coming from everywhere pro and con trying to outdo each other like angry protesters" it sounds like Ben Harper had no control over the show. Ben Harper having a bad day? I think that simplifies this at best, because clearly some in the audience became an unruly mob.

As I mentioned, I saw Ben Harper at Newport Folk Festival and he said some political chatter. Some quietly applauded, some moaned audibly, but the show moved on. It seems at this WA show, emotions (and maybe the wine) went to some peoples' heads and they became so obnoxious, Harper thought it might be best to walk off the stage and let them cool off.

Last Edited by 6SN7 on Sep 04, 2018 7:07 AM


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