Every now and then I find myself with a volume heavy blues band of the "Chicago" variety. (Elmore, Muddy et al.) They will not turn down. In fact, they don´t even think they´re loud.
My 5W amp gives me much better sound than a host of others I´ve tried (this is not unusual), but even when it´s miced to the PA it does not suffice in terms of volume. It struck me now, just off the cuff: would an increase in the number of microphones in front of the amp give me an increase in volume? I kind of suspect that two mics would not give me twice the output ... but I´m not terribly far from a functional level (in the slower numbers I´m heard!), and perhaps an investment in a receptive microphone would be an interesting stratagem in this never-ending quest for volume and sound? Or several mics?
I would not say "I told you" in your pedalboard post, but...."I told you" hahahaha...I told you that is common to go directly through the PA and in some situation is mandatory (happens often to me). So, if it is the case (because the amp can't be used correctly), in my opinion you need a good pedalboard which give you the right (with the correct pedal order and DI using) and good (in term of timbre) sound. Many times, in live conditions, micing the amp is not simple (as you note) and depends to many factors. For me, you are trying to fix an unsolvable problem because it is not absolutely said that you can will use more than one mic or other solutions (depends on PA, sound eng skills, timetable, etc...). For me, you waste time only, if your typical situation is those to play in many different environment, with others musician starting from a little to bigger venue and all "street" conditions in the middle. My school of thought is based on having a proper pedal board or at least an amplifier with DI out. Surely, someone else will know how to help you on the mic solution but the risks are what I said in base of my experience...
Obviously you ever have the solution to carry around a Bassman like many musicians, so y'll have enough volume for almost all situations...but I'm not a fan of heavy and big amp...depends on you...
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 23, 2018 6:15 AM
I can't answer your original question about two mics, but I suspect not. Going into two PA channels ought to be equivalent to just turning one up a bit.
I went round the houses with the question of sound & volume you mention, and concluded that volume was the most important thing. I'm not even sure that the '5W amp sound' actually even works with an electric band, at whatever volume. It never seems to sound as nice as it does played solo.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 23, 2018 7:46 AM
In my experiance 2 mics can be used to get 2 different sound spot on cab (tweeter and woofer) but not to doubler the volume, seems a crazy solution to me but I can wrong because I've no direct experience...in any case, is valid my above discussion...
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 23, 2018 7:51 AM
Recently I have mainly been playing in acoustic and semi acoustic groups with moderate stage volume levels and just using the PA, occasionally using my 585/EH 44 Magnum/Lil' Buddy" sit-in setup. However, in the past I have experienced trying to be heard and to hear myself in loud band settings.
By mic'ing different parts of the speaker you can pick ups signals emphasizing different frequencies. You might be able to get a little more volume by emphasizing the mic signal that isn't ringing/feeding back. But I don't think you would gain a lot of volume over just turning up and adjusting EQ.
The risk of using a small amp in a loud band is that either you will turn up your small amp too loud while trying to hear yourself on stage (causing feedback), or you will have to turn up harp in the monitors instead, and risk feedback from the monitor signal to vocal mics on stage.
A bigger amp or playing direct to the PA through pedals or a line out are good solutions to consider.
Two other ways that worked for me in the past (before I gave up and bought a bigger amp and cabs) were:
1) I put the small amp (in this case a 14 watt Gibson Explorer) on a tilt back stand facing me like a monitor. I mic'ed it to the PA from behind the amp. This minimized the need for harp in the stage monitors. The mic to the PA was still behind the mains, so it did not pick up sound to feed back. The sound man handled FOH levels. He did put a little harp in the monitors on the far side of the stage, away from my amp.
2) I mic'ed my small 10 watt 8" speaker project amp from behind to a powered 100 watt monitor sitting nearby. The signal was not in the mains at all, just in this monitor that I used as a second, "booster" amp. This would probably not work in a much larger room, but in the meeting/dining room of a fraternal organization it worked fine.
I finally decided that I just needed a bigger amp if I were going to use tube amps to play harp in loud settings.
Other than the Gibson and small project amp, my other 3 tube amps are PA heads that I can mix and match with different cab configurations. They each have 16, 8, and 4 ohm outputs. The most powerful is a 35 watt Knight head (with anti-feedback?!), and it is the one I take for louder gigs.
All my tube amps are push-pull and not single ended, except for a Newcomb record player I haven't had checked out yet, and that I would not use to play out. I have several cabs, so I can bring more speakers to push more air when needed.
The only way a small amp can work well in a "Chicago" style blues band is if everyone is using a small amp. Once the big amps took over at live shows, the small amps were not very well suited to share the stage and were best used in the studio. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 23, 2018 8:42 AM
@Dox: Of course I took note of your recommendation the other day, to go straight to PA through pedalboard . And I´ve tried that with not so fabulous results, in terms of volume (but kinda acceptable sound-wise) -- but what I did not have then was two impedance converters: one at the start (after my lo-z mic), and one at the end, before the PA connection, and that is something that remains to be tried. I have been instructed that this is the proper way to go about if one prefers lo-z mics, and I obey my guru. I will just have to buy me another impedance converter first.
But generally, I´m rather fond of that little 5W amp that weighs 11 kilos (easily portable) and gives plenty of volume -- just not enough for this particular context. I have quite a few amps to use in our rehearsal room (some Fenders, my own Vox AV60, other Voxes, an old Ampeg etc) and they give plenty of volume -- but they don´t sound *right*. (Fixing amps, "optimizing for harmonica", changing tubes and whatever is not up my alley.)
@MindTheGap: Well, as for the mics I´ll just have to make empirical observations, but I don´t set my hopes too high, according to what you say. About the 5W amp w/ electric band I´m not so defeatist as you: I´ve even played live (with drums and guitars) where I´ve had to turn down quite a bit.
@Dougsharps: I hear you. And interesting ideas of mic placement. Will try that.
The EH Magnum 44 is not terribly expensive, I note. Is that a gadget you can recommend for loud playing w/ dirty sound, or is it more for the ... blue midnight situations?
Of course I need a bigger amp (and I have one, as well as access to several others, as I say above) but I´ve become a little bit like The Princess in HC Andersens story about the princess and the pea: I´m getting terribly sensitive in my old age, and simply can´t play well if I´m not sounding good. (If I ever play well.) That can be a pretty damned tiresome encumbrance, I know, but I´ve heard too many badly played and badly sounding harmonicas in my days to cave in to the necessity of adding another performance to that drab multitude.
Our gracious host, Adam Gussow, sometimes uses two fairly small amps. He uses a particular Shure mic, and he espouses the idea of frequency over volume.
Personally I have been on stages where even a Bassman 4x10 was not getting the sound to my ears, although I was heard out front. These are two distinctly different issues. If you are in a high stage volume situation you WILL have trouble hearing yourself, or with feedback, or maybe with stage mates complaining about your volume being high. For me if I can't hear myself it leads to less than stellar harp work.
My situation is maybe not unique but everyone has not lost some mid range hearing over the decades like I have. For this reason I have let go of high volume playing with anyone, anywhere. I MUST hear myself play on one hand; on the other I MUST NOT do further damage to my hearing. I've seen solutions like a personal monitor at head level, tilting your amp back or putting it on a chair, mic to p.a., playing into the p.a., etc. None of these works in a given situation unless you spend the time and have the skill to tame the stage volume beast.
I adopted a duo format 99% of the time some years ago. Part of my hearing loss was in fact due to loud music while part was more to do with loud factory floors for years. The duo is much lower volume, we either do all acoustic or we use 12w amps and a small p.a. to cover small and medium rooms. I do like a well regulated 4 or 5 piece band here and there but volume usually goes out the roof pretty quickly as people get warmed up and a bit looser.
Martin, obviously to sound good you need an impedance adaptor between mic and first pedal and the DI at the end of your pedalboard chain, as I had suggest in the other post. If you don't use this configuration you will got volume and tone suck!! You can't escape from that, buy an xlr impedance matcher for 20 bucks and you will fix your volume problems!
About "sound quality" I understand you. Sometime is difficult to hit the mix with the wanted sound. In these cases you can accept to fallback with the pedalboard solution which can be simple and effective if you make the correct choices.
@Martin I find the EH 44 Magnum w/ Lil' Buddy in a small cab to be a practical, decent sounding lightweight amp option. I don't have to haul vintage tube gear out for situations where I may or may not play, and I have even used it to fill in for harp AND vocals (playing and singing back from my Ultimate 58 mic in a stand, not cupping) at an acoustic gig when a venue PA was dead.
But I like a warm cleaner sound these days and not the full blown distortion of an overdriven single ended amp. I have used the 44 Magnum setup with and without effects and I think it can sound good and gig-able, but it isn't classic tube distortion. It has a warm distortion as you turn up, but even "clean" with the Lil' Buddy it has warm overtones. I have used it in medium venues with relatively loud bands successfully (including Kilborn Alley). It is good for a warm hornlike sound that works well in soul songs and blues, but it is not classic distorted harp. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 23, 2018 12:05 PM
@jbone: The irony here, if that´s the correcct word, is that two of these guys have hearing loss and use aids. But they live in some sort of denial when it comes to volume: "What? We, playing loud?! Nah ..." They are also very caring and interested in helping me attain the same levels of noise, and consequent hearing loss. Various amps are put before me, and one of them even did a Net search of, presumably, "harmonica + feedback" and came up with the LW Harp Shield and suggested an investment. But it wouldn´t help.
Like you, I also play in a duo and hear every single note I play and am rather happy with that. But the blues guys do get gigs ...
@Dox: Thank you. An extra DI box will be ordered really soon. (The first one is also a DI box but it serves like an impedance transformer, used "in reverse". According to the tech guru.) I´m looking forward to a new tryout with that solution.
@Dougsharps: A warm clean harp sound is a very attractive thing, as compared to harsh, trebly and angry. With just a small amount of distortion one can come a long way, as is obvious from Lee Oskars earlier work with War. (That is one of my hobbyhorses and I throw it in all the time.) That´s also an "allround sound2 -- goes with whatever you play, unlike the muddy blues dirt. So the more pronounced dirt is something I´d be willing to sacrifice, and I will give that EV44 magnum a serious check. If you happen to have a sound sample easily at hand (I know, I´m asking a lot here!) I´d be very interested. Not a whole lot to be found on the Net.
Last Edited by Martin on Jan 23, 2018 12:30 PM
I have some recordings of the acoustic gig, but you really cannot tell what it sounds like cupped, since it was just playing in open air back from the mic. I will see if I can put something together to post in this thread, but it won't be immediate. ----------
i played thru this on saturday it was not mic'd... the band was loud. i did not have any issue being heard.one trick is too get the 5 watt amp up as high as possible.
@Martin, I understand fully. One of my last band adventures involved guys who wore earplugs and cranked up 70-100 watts of Mesa amps, positioned 3 feet from their head and 6 or 7 feet from me, then complained when I turned up my 12w amp. Your fellows obviously desire a harp sound in the mix but they may never understand the different frequency requirements and inherent feedback mess a harp mic in a loud setting involves. Sadly most guitarists have no idea about the issue. I know many harp players do what Dox suggests, use a pedal chain of some sort and go through the p.a. Maybe that's a way to get volume without feedback and keep decent tone, but my point is, anything above a certain level WILL damage the hearing mechanism we were born with, irreversibly. There is no great substitute to my knowledge. I'm not lobbying or crusading here. My interest is in possibly pointing out a hazard, long overlooked, that can lead to damage over time. I'd like it if those with their hearing intact find a way to keep it that way. Wish I had! I find myself asking people to repeat what they just said often. It's annoying to me and I know it's annoying to them as well. My choice is do what I've done for years or see if there's a hearing aid that will work ok, and always avoid loud sounds from here on. This started for me some 40 years ago with frequent loud noise on a factory floor. Back then hearing protection was not required and I chose to ignore it as inconvenient. Add to this some very loud arena concerts- Johnny Winter, The Who, Jethro Tull, The DEad, Allmans, J. Geils Band, and others. Starting 25 years ago I began pursuing a harp avocation in SRV's home turf, Dallas. Lots of Fender Twin/Strat players there and lots of loud drummers. Many loud stages, some of which I stood on and tried to make my mark. I worked with bands for about 18 years whenever I could, gigging and going to jams and open mics. Result is between factory work and loud stages my hearing is much less than it could be. We all get to make choices. If I'd paid closer attention I'd still have good hearing today. And- I could still have had many years of joy in doing music, more so than I have had.
I have a Bassman which I use pretty regularly, but, lately, I have been using a Bogen 10 watt PA amp with an Eminence GB128 speaker in a cab which I elevate on a small stand. I often play at a very loud jam, but I have found that with amp volume maxed out I can be heard (and I can hear myself). I use a Behringer EQ 700 graphic equalizer to get rid of any feedback. The amp sounds great maxed out. Normally I use a Brown Biscuit, but I also have an EV 641 which sounds great through this rig.
Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jan 23, 2018 2:07 PM
What did you say??? I couldn't quite catch your words...
I think I might have tinnitus, but I can't tell, because I have this constant ringing in my ears.
I attribute it to dim lights, thick smoke, and loud, loud music...
I am much more involved in acoustic and semi acoustic music these days, with reasonable stage volumes. If I do occasionally go out to hear a loud band and/or sit in, I wear earplugs. My tube amps are usually just collecting dust at home. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 23, 2018 3:04 PM
Thanks for the input here, guys. Much appreciated. And jbone: you´re certainly not alone.
@1847: Yes, I´ve tried that as well. Helped a little bit but unfortunately, not the whole way.
@Rgsccr: How do you set that EQ? I used to use a parametric EQ in an effort to cut down treblyness, but I always found that then I also *lost* the higher register -- and I´m one of those harmonica players who use the entire range of the instrument. When at times I could feel like I was blowing my socks off on, say, a high E harp and then saw a video/heard a sound recording it became kinda ridiculous: lotsa effort there but one didn´t hear much.
@dougharps: Sorry to pester you with this, but what exactly do you need in order to make that EHX Magnum 44 work? I was just down at the local music store (they were willing to order one for me) and was informed that I´d been mistaken in assuming that you more or less directly plugged that gadget in to a PA and then you played. Erh, no ... But then the residing tech nerd got so involved in specifics that I just looked interested and slightly in a hurry ´cause when guys goes off on Ohms and Watts and such stuff they often lose me along the way -- even if I implore them to address me like a retarded infant.
Martin, in order to use the EHx 44 magnum you need a cabinet at 8ohm or 16ohm. If you use a cabinet at 8ohm you can use only one! If you use a cabinet at 16ohm you can pair them! With two cabinet at 16ohm you have 8ohm as output which is the minimum for the ehx 44.
So, you can go to the music store and ask for a guitar cabinet at 8 or 16 ohm to try with the ehx 44.
NOTE: with a 8ohm cabinet or TWO (2) 16ohm cabinets you got all 44watt of ehx 44. If you use only one 16ohm cabinet you got approximately 20 watt...
Aha. And a "cabinet", is that simply a loudspeaker? If so, is that a powered speaker or just a plain one? (I own a couple but haven´t a clue about their Ohms. Suppose that should be written somewhere.)
So, I was mistaken and there´s no PA at all involved in the Magnum 44, and thus my notion of carrying a cigarettpack-sized little thing evaporates into thin air. But of course, I can carry a speaker or two, no big deal.
Then if I need effects, are they welcome along in a chain after the Magnum? I saw something about a "preamp" needed but I don´t know a whole lot about such items either. As I say above, a retarded infant ...
As Dox posted, the 44 Magnum output goes to a 16 ohm or 8 ohm speaker or combination of speakers totaling 16 or 8 ohms.
ONLY SPEAKERS can be on the output!!! It is an amplifier head, though small. You would fry a PA or pedals connected to the output!
You can use a pedal board before the input. I have used EQ, delay, and chorus with it before. Usually I just use it as-is with no pedals, and plug a hi-z, 1/4" mic in (or a low-z mic through a transformer from low to high, like my Ultimate 58). It has a switch that adds brightness if you need it. I switch it to suit the song, the room, the speaker, and the mic, but usually do not set it to bright.
I have used an Ultimate 58, a brown biscuit with CM, and a Shure 585SAV with this amp. The 585 gave me the best overall volume before it started ringing.
I have used it most with my Lil' Buddy 10" in a small cab, but I have used it successfully with a 12" Cannabis Rex in a cab, too.
Even though it is small and light and has a power supply, it is a full fledged AMP, not an effect pedal!
I would not use it with a speaker rated less than 50 watts, because (depending on the room and the band) at times I turn it up to 1 or 2 o'clock and it is LOUD.
The Lil' Buddy is small, light, and has served me well as my go-to sit-in amp. I usually tilt it to bounce the sound off the ceiling of a venue to avoid hurting someone's ears directly in front of it.
To make it work you need a high z mic signal to a 1/4" cable, and a speaker output cable from the amp to the speaker. If you already have a cab with an 8 or 16 ohm speaker load, all you need is the speaker cable. I prefer 8 ohm loads as this gives the best power output.
EDIT: If being heard is the issue and you don't already have a speaker, probably the 12" would move more air and get you better volume. The Lil' Buddy 10" starts out darker in tone, but brightens up when you push it with higher volume. The Cannabis Rex is more of a balanced tone speaker from the start, but has warm overtones and is not chimey or shrill.
If you considering a 44 Magnum amp and already have 50 watt or higher rated speaker(s) that will handle the output and they have 8 or 16 ohm impedance, try them out before buying new speakers. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 24, 2018 1:56 PM
Martin, no the Ehx 44 is not suitable to go through the PA!! 44 magnum is an amp in pedal format, through his output you HAVE to go to a speaker (yes a simple passive loudspeaker).
In order to go through the PA you have to suite my previous suggestion placing another DI at the end of the pedalboard chain.
The Ehx 44 itself MUST be the last pedal in your pedalboard.
You are a bit confused about alternatives. You can:
1. Use a DI as last pedal in the pedabolard: using this one you can go to the PA (using the xlr output) or go to your amp (not a passive speaker, but your 5w combo!).
2. Use the 44 magnum as last pedal in the pedalboard: using this one you HAVE (mandatory) to go DIRECTLY to a simple passive loudspeaker (NO PA, NO 5w COMBO!!).
Obviously you can use the DI as described in point 1 and, when needed, use the DI unbalanced output to go into the 44 magnum and then to the passive loudspeaker (point 2.)
You can use this last solution to overcome the power issue when this happens, because the 44w of magnum is more than your current 5w combo. In all other cases y'll use the point 1.
I think venues should have decibel meters handy; it could save a lot of hearing damage down the road. The first issue is, if they really are too loud (and you aren't too old!) then that needs to be addressed. You don't want to be playing 5 years from now having an even harder time hearing yourself. You might get something from a gain pedal or a hotter mic (either into your amp or out of your amp going into the PA), but stage volume really is the first thing to deal with. (Getting a db meter might help there.)
At a venue with a good mixing board and PA the other option that is easy to overlook is to make friends with the sound guy. Make sure, also, that it's not just an issue of needing a monitor speaker pointed at you and turned up.
The "piggy back" allows u to clip to yr spkr wires pos and neg ==Its basically the mod people put inside small epiphones etc ,for a line out ==but the mod is in the "piggy back" rathur than inside the amp---its built out ----instead of built in
-so the signal that is going to yr spkrs "that nice chicago tone" is now going to the PA or u can go into a bassman ---so your small amp becomes a pedal .sorta---- on the pa u use the standard 1/4" in on a channel-- ---or go into a bigger guitar amp $40 No I don't make money off it---I use to have the same problem until after 40 yrs of trying to be heard over the band I got a cheaters bassman A Peavy classic 4x10 it has dirt channel for lead and reverb for$400 less than a used bassman-I use for guitar as well---I love it
Heres the address http://thesquealkiller.com/the-piggy-back/
That piggy back is a pretty good idea. I built a line-out into my little amp, and although it's fine, I remember that fitting it physically was a bit of a pain. This is much neater, and you only need one for all your amps.
Sure the signal isn't the same as micing the amp but everyone knows that.
Seems a bit pricey at first sight, but I'm always surprised by the cost of components when building things.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 25, 2018 9:35 AM
This Behringer active DI with speaker emulation is an inexpensive way to go direct from your amp. You need the DI and speaker cable(s). You would need to use all the pads to control the signal. Check the info and the manual. Around $40 or so.
Have you already tried the suggestion above about setting it up as a monitor and mic'ing to the PA from behind? No cost to trying that first before spending money on amps or other gear. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 25, 2018 10:44 AM
If going to a jam and you know it's going to be loud, like your 5w amp all you want, but leave it home. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Either bring something suitable, play through the PA, or play with different people. Trying to mic your your amp to be heard is a pain in the ass.
I recently followed a loud group. As our new group of jammers came up the bass player asked what we were going to play I said, "Quieter than the last band." ---------- BnT
@dougharps: "Have you already tried the suggestion above about setting it up as a monitor and mic'ing to the PA from behind? No cost to trying that first before spending money on amps or other gear."
Yes, that was tried this evening. Unfortunately no bigger difference -- but a small difference. However, I had to use the Harp Octave all the way up on the Blend function, then turned the amp up all the way, and then used it as a monitor, as you suggested. But the PA signal was too weak, and I´m on or over the feedback limit all the time, while still struggling to hear myself. Tiresome.
I´ve got other options to try out, but that Magnum 44 looks kinda interesting -- even if I don´t understand a thing about it and its prerequisites -- and maybe I´ll bring it up as a separate tread on this forum or rely on the local experts for further instructions.
I´m afraid I don´t understand a whole lot about that DI box you suggest either, but I think that might have been directed to someone else on this tread with more of tech insights than me. (It certainly looks cooler than the one I bought a while back!)
Most of the information I get here or elswhere that presupposes theoretical knowledge of electronics, even basic, just fly by me. I´m not proud of it, but it´s way beyond what I grasp.
@Martin "But the PA signal was too weak, and I´m on or over the feedback limit all the time, while still struggling to hear myself. Tiresome."
Directly to the PA via pedalboard and the signal is still weak? With 2 DI BOx one in front of pedalboard and one as last pedal?!?!? If it is, there is something terribly wrong...I'm starting suspect there is a mix problem, a kinda of equalization problem or bad mic or bad guitarist or someone else bad...may be the PA is a little system and other musicians use 1000 watts amplifiers (this, in general, has no sense but is to understand)...can you tell us the band composition and the gears used by musicians?
Last Edited by Dox on Jan 29, 2018 3:33 PM
@Dougharps: Sorry, maybe I wasn´t clear: The signal from the mic (a Shure SM57) placed, after your recommendation, at the *back* of the 5W amp did not suffice to give me enough volume: I couldn´t hear myself, despite maxing out on the amp. (And the HO at maximum blend gets rather muddy, so I didn´t really like the sound either.) When I pushed up the volume on the PA it started to feed back.
I now officially give up on the hope of being able to use that amplifier at rehearsals with this (ridiculously loud) band. It is no longer a viable alternative. (Somewhat ironically I believe the amp can be used in live situations, since the volume these guys produce simply isn´t acceptable for many smaller venues.)
@Dox: No, I´m not there yet and if you see the quote that I prefaced my post with you´ll understand that I was not going through pedalboard to PA. That´s my next step, and a second DI box should be in the mail from Germany to Sweden, bound to arrive in a week or so. That´ll be interesting, since the American Sound pedal worked rather nicely from a *qualitative* point of wiev with the HO. But I´m a realist in these matters nowadays and don´t set my hopes too high.
Still, like a drunken parrot I promise I will return to the subject and report my efforts. All advice is, once again, thankfully received and I apologize for my lack of understanding a lot of the technical stuff.
@Martin When using the "amp as monitor setup" the mic to the PA from the back of the amp was not designed to help you hear yourself. The amp aimed at your face was to take care of that. The mic to PA was to take care of the front of the house sound so the audience could hear you when the amp was pointed at you. If your amp, sitting right in front of you tilted up to your face like a monitor, cannot be heard by you with your band, then that amp cannot work for you with your current band.
You might be able to use a pedal board direct to the PA, but if you turn yourself up in the monitors to hear yourself you may get feedback again.
The size, shape, and acoustical properties of the room are factors with feedback, too. What kind of practice space do you use? In a reasonably sized venue the PA would carry your sound to the audience and not back to your mic on stage to cause feedback. If the room is too small or you are using the PA monitors to hear yourself in addition to the amp, you would likely get feedback. This could happen with a pedal board turned up too high in the monitors, too.
I doubt that the EH 44 Magnum amplifier could do it without a multi speaker cabinet at 8 ohms plus an anti-feedback device. Maybe a Fender Bassman reissue with a Kinder anti-feedback could be heard, but you would have to lug it around.
Ultimately, if you are using a mic for harp and they are using solid body electric guitars, you will have feedback issues more easily then they will. Mics will ring or feedback when sound is at high levels and bounces off room surfaces.
Related question: Can the singer be heard at these sound levels without the PA ringing??? Singers use mics and stage monitors, and they can also have problems at high sound levels. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 30, 2018 7:37 AM
@Dougharps. Yes, I got that with the amp -- but it wasn´t enough neither for my hearing nor for the room. This is a rather large rehearsal space, think big classroom, but the band clings to one portion of it. I had to get too close to the amp and then it started howling, and what little came through the monitor wasn´t adequate. Harmonica is a curse.
And oh yes, the singers hear themselves -- and they got extra headroom as well. The two guitars (big Fender amps) can play ridiculously high (and they do -- that´s, per my OP, the issue here) and they are happily unconcerned with the consequences of that, and slightly worried by my sound troubles: "Hm, strange ..."
I can always quit, of course.
A Bassman RI is, so to speak on the table, as a loan (for eventual purchase) but it´s a monster as you´re well aware and, although I´m still fit enough to lift stuff it *is* a rather unwieldy thing.
The photo that 1847 has posted shows an excellent way of solving the problem. Years ago I saw Mark Wenner with the Nighthawks, and he did the same thing. He had a tweed Champ sitting on top of a tweed Bassman. The Champ was miked through the PA; the Bassman was unmiked. Out in the house, we heard a combination of the two sounds.
The unmiked Bassman fills in the low frequencies and also obviously (!) gives the player sufficient stage volume. The miked smaller amp fills in all the nastier crunchier high mids, so the harp--with the help of the soundman--is always present in the mix, rather than being merely loud and woofy.
The way to solve the OP's problem is NOT to put two mics on the same amp.
Years ago, my friend Trip Henderson, who taught me most of what I know about amplifying harp, flew down to Anguilla to play a big VIP show--the Stones may have been part of it--on the beach. He brought along a Tweed Champ and miked it through the PA. He said that worked just fine.
@kudzurunner: No, the two mics notion was killed early on. Unfortunately the maximum elevation I managed with the amp wasn´t more than ca 1,2 meters. Maybe I can get a bit more creative there and find something higher.
1847 doesn´t say if that speaker underneath the amp is activated ... but if it had been a Bassman I guess the problem would be solved, à la Mark Wenner (and some contraption to split the signal?).
If one can sing through a PA and reach several hundreds of people one would think that a 5 W amp at maximum volume would do the trick as well, but no, not in the case I described.
i most definitely had both amps on. i have the opposite issue, i am always too loud. i usually use a bassman. when i try to get the band to turn down, they laugh and tell me i am louder than everyone.
lately i have been taping myself to see how loud i am. so i have been working on playing not quite so loud. as i was loading my bassman in my car, it slipped, and i dropped it. ouch.
so i decided to use my magnatone and a champ to see if it would be sufficient. it worked better than i imagined.
when we went to dinner afterwards the guitar player said i was a little loud, and he was going to ask me to turn down, but he held off, so i guess it was not too loud, but pretty close.
i do not need any special equipment to split the signal. i can simply daisy chain it all together. however i do have the lone wolf terminator, and it works really well. i also have a digital echo that has 4 outputs, so i can run as many amps as needed.
are you positive your amp is five watts? are you positive the speaker is 8 inch? ... some amps are only three and a half watts with a 6 inch speaker, that would not work out very well.
Call me a cynic but I'm with Dox. I see the only solution is a Bassman or some similar high wattage amp and a Kinder AFB+. That's not cheap! I went that route to play with a band and I wore earplugs to boot! Guess what? It didn't last long. I want playing music to be fun.
Yes, that´s the heart of the matter. And for that reason I bought a Vox 60W: sounds loud but not particularly good. B
Mic to PA is always an attractive solution in terms of simplicity. But about the only time I´ve had a good sound with only those components was when I used my Beyer ribbon mic -- and that one quickly died: a tender little thing. What mic do you use? Do you have other tools to make the sound more appealing? (Also, there are PA:s and PA:s -- they don´t all sound the same.)
I've heard a local player use a Harp Attack straight into the PA thru a bullet mic. He sounded great but he is extremely talented. He also had a soundman that knew what he was doing. Definitely doable-relatively cheap and light.
I use either my Ultimate 58 to the PA or a Shure 585AV through an IMT when I play to the PA. I often roll off some highs depending on the PA, but not too far. I may slightly boost lows, but again, it depends on the PA. I set up the volume on the mic to be slightly cut back so I can adjust from the mic either up or down.
I have had better luck getting volume before feedback with these mics as opposed to my Astatic Biscuit with CM element. I have not played in a band that is really loud for quite a while, though I have sat in with a few here and there.
Regarding your amp settings: I would suggest trying a relatively clean setting, not a gainy fuzzy distortion setting to get the best volume before feedback. You can get crunch by playing dirty notes without needing constant fuzzy gainy distortion over everything. ----------
@Tuckster: Yeah, been there. Can´t say that the HA sounded that great to my ears, and I´ve since sold it. (Maybe the Harp Break would be more up my alley?) But an American Sound to PA is to me a more interesting option. The problem comes when you need more volume.
@dougharps: No, I don´t think there´s any modeling alternatives. It´s called Vox AV60. A pre-amp part with tubes, but it doesn´t sound particularly warm despite that. (It was inexpensive -- and loud.)
Thnks for info on mic settings -- I think that´s roughly the way I´d do it, but I do not own an Ultimate: going directly I either use an EV, vintage Beyerdynamic, an SM57 or a 545 SD.
@dougharps: This is (almost) straight to PA -- but I go through an American Sound pedal, with very neutral settings, just some bass added, and delay/or reverb. But it´s a small place, as you can see: a sort of Christmas gig in a clothes store ... (It was very annoying here, the guy with the *extremely* ugly hat was supposed to have started singing a long while back, but he was preoccypied with his papers so I had to continue my intro, and the last part was filmed.)
As obvious it´s not very tightly cupped, so it could have been dirtier, but that was not on the menue for this type of tune. The mic is an EV PL 35, I believe it´s called.
If you can use that same mic and pedal setup in the loud band setting, be heard by the audience, and hear yourself, you should just use that rig with the PA and not worry about other gear. ----------
