I'm serious. The gauntlet has been thrown down. Just a guy and his horn with a backing track. Post a video where you blow a solo like this. Soulful, in the groove, jazzy, honest, no jive. I may throw money at you. Convince me that sax players don't just leave us in the dust.
The answer, BTW, is that "we" don't do it because "we" can't.
Mooncat and Alex Paclin can, I bet. Magic Dick: probably. The rest of yuhs [sic] can't.
Come on, Iceman. Mr. Funk. Let's see what you're made of.
Seriously. This is what I wish we could do. I don't think we can do it. I don't think Carlos can do it.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 05, 2015 8:20 PM
I don't think sax players leave us in the dust at all. Every instrument has it's strengths and limitations and every instrument brings something to the table. Maybe if this is what you really hanker to be playing you should take up playing the saxophone. I think there are people pushing the boundaries of music all the time and many players can now do things commonly that a few years ago seemed nigh on impossible for the diatonic harmonica. At the end of the day though we are all limited by whatever instrument we play. Whether that be saxophone, piano, trumpet, harmonica, guitar, etc. All of them can do certain things more easily than the others can. Rather than try to imitate another instrument, surely it makes more sense to embrace the wonders and limitations of whatever instrument you play and then utilise those to the fullest extent. It's possible and has been often demonstrated that jazz can be played on the diatonic if someone wants too. It's just that some ways of laying down jazz are easier on some instruments than others.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 05, 2015 10:09 PM
We can, I think a lot of it is that it takes a lot of work that most are unwilling to put in. Between the work it takes to set up a harp, practicing to having good intonation on bends and overbends. Then you have to transpose in your head a lot between harps, THEN get to interpreting and putting your soul in to a piece. It can get pretty daunting, not to mention if you put in all that work, not getting very much respect because it's "only" a harmonica. I think most of the people that want to play that kind of music simply choose a path of lesser resistance and move to a different axe for it.
Last Edited by 20REEDS on Mar 05, 2015 10:59 PM
I could name half a dozen players that can do that if not much and maybe a few more on their way working on their skills. Few of them are already here, Boris, Herzhaft... is Tinus a member ?
It's not that we can't, it's just that harp hasn't been tought in a jazzy tradition. Lot's of harp players are still thinking in positions rubish theory past the 3rd and not in term of keys. Positions reflect a reality for the first 3, past that, not so much. Lot's of them sees overblow as wrong notes, there isn't any concensus on how to play (only the tongue, the throats, both, none of them, ect...) where there should be one.
And also, it's a forum about "blues" harp. Not Jazz harps. Even if jazz is the modern blues. Those guys that can do that aren't here, a few of them aren't even known. Doesn't mean they don't exist and that harp players can't do this much if they put the same kind of works as other regular jazz players.
Adam, could that guy makes solos as good as Little Walter or any blues harp heroes ? I am incline to think that's not necesseraly the case since it's not the same trade. However, an harp players taugh well could probably do both.
If we were to compare the progress made on both types of instrument, i'd say harps players in their majority aren't even close to what sax players had done by the 40's. Let's wait a few more years to see were we'll end up.
I don't post many videos but here's a version of Summer Time that I hope is in a similar vein – obviously much slower and not an entirely improvised piece. It was done off the cuff, we hadn't really played together before and there are a few dodgy notes :).
Anyway, not exactly the same sort of thing but relevant I hope:
Sax player is David Strong. "Musician and Educator, originally from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I received my Bachelors degree in Music Education from the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire, where I played in the UWEC Jazz Ensemble. I am currently working for Carnival Cruise Lines as a musical director. I play all saxophones, flute, and clarinet, as well as some piano and guitar and vocals."
He obviously has a musical education and knowledge of jazz theory...
I haven't had time yet to listen to the most recent videos posted to the thread, so maybe I'll be proven wrong, but...
I think that sax players do leave harp players in the dust, in general.
The other posters are correct, IMO, about the reasons behind this, the way it's taught and commitment etc for a lack of reward.
It also comes down to the sheer number of effective practise hours you put in. A sax player has a graded list of etudes and technical work (that get increasingly more difficult as you progress through the levels) they can be taught as soon as he starts learning. That hasn't been the case for harmonica; perhaps that will change in the future. So by the time they are playing for a few years, sax players would have a far greater technical capacity than most harmonicas players.
I take Kingley's point about sax players not being able to play the same things and textures as blues harpers though. We have some unique attributes and sounds that we "bring to the table", as they say... chords, percussive things. But I think that it takes a pretty exceptional harmonica player (a Howard Levy or Antonio Serrano) to keep up with even a moderately decent sax player that you can find in any city in the world.
Last Edited by blingty on Mar 06, 2015 7:17 AM
I'm not really talking about overblows here; nor am I talking about jazz per se, much less the "smooth jazz" in the title. I'm talking about a level of mastery and strength that I feel from this particular sax guy's playing over what is, for much of its length, basically a one-chord vamp.
Harmonica players can certainly be note-y, but that often shows up without real strength. On the other hand, they can stick very close to the groove, a la Big Walter; they can play strong, but without this sax player's sort of fluidity and fleet-footedness.
It's that particular combination that I just don't see very often in our tribe.
Rogonzab, that's a great clip. Is that you? Regardless, it's very much in the direction I'm talking about. But the player has chosen a very light tone, and combined it with a kind of noodler's affect. The sax player has a certain kind of swagger, along with a big bold tone, that this harp player doesn't have. I would love to see the harp player working through a rig that gave him a big fat ballsy sound, not the harp equivalent of Herbie Hancock's fusion keyboard sound from his Headhunters phase. But that's a good response to my call. Thanks.
bluzmn: I'm not interested in smooth jazz per se. I'm interested in the big full strong groove-heavy and fleet-footed sound that the sax guy gets.
Basically I'm looking for somebody who can do for harp whas David Sanborn did for sax. Sanborn was in Ray Charles's band. All this stuff comes out of the blues. It's contemporary R&B sax.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 06, 2015 7:56 AM
Sax players are hard to hang with. The instruments are so different. But a huge difference is sax players spend hours and hours and hours practicing scales and modes and more scales and modes. You don't see harp in a horn line much. But if you want to get some respect from horn players try to fit in and don't over play. I don't know if this is pertinent to Adam's point. I love the hard edged rough sound of the harp. Why have we never heard a sax player do Whammer Jammer or huff out a train rhythm. Why didn't Muddy use a sax player. I like the sax but I LOVE the harp.
Last Edited by R2D2 on Mar 06, 2015 8:43 AM
I was watching the movie Whiplash and immediately thought of Gary Primich's version of Caravan.
I know it's chromatic and not a "blues harp". The full tab for Gary's version can be found in "Masters of the Blues Harp". If I can keep my head out of the chemo fog long enough maybe I'll try and see how this would lay out on a diatonic.
There are quite a few harmonica players out there that could easily play something similar with passion and mastery. However, it will likely never have the same visceral appeal just due to the tone of a harmonica versus the tone of a saxophone.
The thing is a harmonica will always be an outlier instrument, much like a banjo, accordion, or cello. There are some amazing acts out now doing some really cool stuff with these instruments but, playing thunder struck on a banjo, accordion, or cello will always be seen as a vaudevillian type act.
Hey Hawk, how about a harmonica version of thunderstruck, it anyone can pull it off it’s you! ----------
scott@scottwoerner.com
Last Edited by smwoerner on Mar 06, 2015 8:48 AM
Harmonica can't be as fluid as a saxophone because of the changes in breath direction. Toots Thielemanns discussed that in the interview with Richard Hunter in Hunter's "Jazz Harp" book.
All instruments have inherent strengths and weaknesses. Pretty hard to play chords on a sax.
"All instruments have inherent strengths and weaknesses."
I think time has it right
I just dont see the need for that type playing when blues harp is its own wonderful world.
For all the effort it would take and natural talent needed it would be wiser to put it into another instrument, unless one is so obsessed with the novelty of using the harp for that purpose
At the end of the day other musicians may be impressed but the sax player will still get the gig
Well, I didn't listen to all the first sax video because, well, it's jazz, so .... but the bit I listened to didn't have any split octaves, double stops or vocal articulation.
OK, just to be fair - I went back and listened to the rest of it. I think Mike Stevens would leave this guy in his dust. If a sax player tried to do what some harp players can do, they would give up in frustration.
It sounds like Elevator music to me - and Adam, why are trying to cause trouble ?? ;-) ----------
I admire Sanborn's mastery , but he is the last saxophonist I want to sound like or emulate. The jam is too groove-centric for my taste and find this set of King-Curtis variations no less noodling than what excessively quick, Popper like playing makes me think of. It may be the jazz snob in me speaking of out of turn, but here goes: I like solos that build, which are what Frank Zappa would call "spontaneous composition". They should achieve something, make a statement. This just makes me think of a soundtrack from a bad late night sketch comedy show. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
The logistical advantage has to go to the player with only one reed and 10 fingers to achieve the sound. I'd never say never but the harp player has to work a lot harder.
According to Wikipedia, Sanborn also spent sometime playing with Albert King and Little Milton. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
I agree with Mssr. Jawbone. The vid in the OP displays music that I find quite distasteful. I think many harmonica players are attracted to the instrument because of the music it's GOOD at playing, not because of music that's difficult to make sound good on a harp. I'm not talking in absolutes here (your Howard Levy's etc. can make it do things I can't), and certainly those who have skill and work with altered tunings (Brendan P, to name one), can play some far out music styles in a very credible way. I'm talking about folks who pick up a standard diatonic harp and start to playing. This kind of wanker-y jazz stuff just ain't what they are after. There are PLENTY of examples of harp playing on YT that as impressive (or more) as the OP vid, with just as much (or more) musicality and skill -- just playing different kinds of music. It's a matter of musical tastes here, and IMO this is a total non-issue. ----------
My own tastes in sax (and harp) I think go more towards a simple hook- Take a Walk on the Wild Side, Baker Street, Turn the Page, You Belong to the City. They aren't terrible tough, but they've got a hook. (Even Dub FX with Mr. Woodnote in Flow).
On the harp side James Cotton's Slow Blues.
If I was going to looking for a harp player to play something like this Buddha would have been a good choice, or Christelle.
Hmmmm. I seem to be very wrong about Sanborn having played with Ray Charles. Charles and two of his sax players, Hank Crawford and Fathead Newman, were huge influences on Sanborn, as he openly proclaimed. I think that's the source of my confusion. Here's part of an interview he did with Bob Putignano:
Bob Putignano for BluesWax: Dave, nice crew of "A" team players on your new recording, Steve Gadd, Russell Malone, Christian McBride...
David Sanborn: It's definitely a great bunch of players.
BW: And, of course, doing the Hank Crawford thing.
DS: Hank was my hero, as well as Fathead Newman and Ray Charles, those three guys were the pillars of my entire foundation as they opened the door and turned on the lights for me.
BW: Joel Dorn was a regular guest on my radio show, and always made references to Ray, Fathead, and Hank.
DS: That's right, they were the alpha and omega of the music for me. They changed my life and had an elegance and sophistication as they combined all the elements of American music, Gospel, Blues, Jazz, and R&B. In a way, they formulated the foundation for all the Rhythm & Blues that followed.
BW: And we lost Fathead and Hank this year.
DS: How ironic that within weeks of each other, we lost them both.
BW: Did you ever get to play with them?
DS: Yes; I had a television show in the early '90s called Night Music where I was fortunate to have them on my TV show.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 06, 2015 5:21 PM
Too loud Play too many notes Have no formal musical training Know absolutely no music theory Play with too much breath force Can't keep time Are overall horrible musicians.
That's pretty much the regular chat and feedback from board member ;)
You could say that about most instrument players. Very few achieve a high level of proficiency on any instrument. I think it is the harmonicas low cost and portability that shifts the ratio of bad players to good way up for the harmonica. When is the last time you saw somebody whip out a tuba and play it badly? I am sure there are plenty of bad tuba players but few (none?) carry one with them to demonstrate the fact. How many good tuba players keep one handy just in case they get an opportunity to play?
I can play trombone at about the same proficiency as I play harmonica but I don't sit out on a park bench and play trombone. Perhaps I should, it might help the harmonicas reputation! :-)
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 06, 2015 6:58 PM
Part of this is about playing extended non blues solos without exhausting ideas. There are harmonica players who do this, Howard Levy of course, PT Gazell, and a newer kid on the block, Filip Jers. Check out his effortless mastery on Sweet Georgia Brown. He could have easily gone for another 8 choruses, in a rack no less
---------- Tony Eyers Australia www.HarmonicaAcademy.com everyone plays...
Having spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours in clubs listening to the greatest of the great LA sax players over the last 40 years (Herman Riley, Warne Marsh, Bill Perkins, Teddy Edwards, Art Pepper, Azar Lawrence, Pete Chrislieb, Ricky Woodard, Plas Johnson, etc etc etc), and about one tenth as much time in the blues clubs as well (Rod Piazza, William Clarke, Mitch Kashmar, Lynwood Slim, etc), I just don't get the idea of comparing what these guys are doing on the bandstand. Even the greatest blues harp players play the same shit over and over again, while jazz guys strive to never play it the same way twice and can solo for a dozen choruses and never run out of ideas. Mind blowing.
Bill Perkins, who was an incredible jazz musician was once offered the gig to go out on a world tour with Steely Dan and even though the money was great he told me he'd rather shoot himself in the head before playing the same shit at the same time night after night.
IMHO, trying to play jazz on a diatonic harp using over bends is something like creating the sound of a screeching alley cat. You can hit the "right", that is, chromatic, notes alright, but they virtually always sound flat, pinched and terrible. That goes for Levy, Jers, Ricci, del Junco or any other accomplished over bend player I've ever heard. The only two people I've heard - and I surely am not the most widely listening person - who don't sound this way are our own Todd Parrot, and Buddy Greene, neither of whom, as far as I know, plays jazz.
I'd say, don't even try. If you want to play jazz on a harmonica, play chromatic harp. All the technical wizardry in the world apparently won't make a diatonic harp do this well. Talk about TONE! The tone on a diatonic harp sucks in this realm, and hurts the ears to listen to.
Maybe THAT'S why the OP doesn't hear diatonic harp players doing what he thinks they ought to be able to do. It can't be done.
So then you have the Brendan's and the PT's who presumably know this esoteric truth, and have devised more likely ways to do what wants doing.
Last Edited by harp-er on Mar 07, 2015 9:35 AM
It seems like the OP is expecting the diatonic to do BEYOND its capabilities. No matter how much you try, a Prius will never outperform, say, an M3. Just won't happen.
The problem is how many harmonica players have access to world class organ players. I used jam with the Budesa Brothers and I think Rich Budesa is just as good as Joey. These guys loved it when I jammed with them. I wish I had some recording with these guys.
This is a very funny thread. If Little Walter had listened to CarlA, or harp-er--or me, for that matter--he never would have spent time listening to Jimmy Liggins and sampling "The Honeydripper" into "Evans Shuffle." Because of course Liggins is a sax player, and it's easy for him to modulate up a half step--which harmonica players can't do.
But Little Walter wasn't like other harmonica players. He took the impossible--or "the impossible," since irony is needed here--as a challenge. So he listened to Liggins, let go of what couldn't be done (at the time), and copied/adapted/used what his musical imagination told him was available to him.
That's a good way to work.
I'm not writing here for the nay-sayers. I intended this thread as a challenge to those who, like me, think it's fun and creatively enlivening to keep their ears open, poach from territory that others steer clear of, and try to do things in a new and slightly different way.
I feel truly sorry for any player who can listen to the Arnett Cobb video that I posted and NOT feel like picking up their horn and getting some of that.
Here's somebody who has done exactly what I'm asking for. I'm sorry nobody has mentioned him, since we all know him:
I realize that some here will say, "He's wasting his time on jazz," but I disagree. He's giving the bari sax players a run for their money. (Some nice overblows, too.)
I agree about that Dennis performance. He's wailing, no doubt, and his flat over bends even don't take too much away from the overall wonder of it. I would question though whether they would take away - and I would be likely to say that they would - if he were trying to do something other than a "badass", rough and ready, growling, grinding, punching kind of thing? Maybe then it's largely a matter of context. I didn't listen to the original post of smooth jazz sax. Even so, I would stick with my original assessment and say that trying to do something like "smooth jazz" on a diatonic using overbends would be likely to fail sonically, even if it represented technical mastery.
Well who said I was any kind of expert? I stand amazed and humbly corrected. Unbelievable I would have said, and I guess I did say it, more or less. Thanks for posting that, wheel. If anyone says anything like what I've been saying, this is where I'll send them. Wonders never cease.
Whenever I am having thought like the ones expressed by harp-er and CarlA, I go and read a few things like this It will never work . Here is an example that seems a bit relavent to this discussion.
"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value. - Marshal Ferdinand Foch, French military strategist, 1911. He was later a World War I commander."
Anything new is almost always greeted with "It will never work", Most of the time that is the case. On the rare occasions when it turns out not to be the case, people eventually wonder how anyone could have ever doubted! I have had the privilege of experiencing this first hand. I expect many of you have used some of my designs that were greeted by some of my co-workers with a hearty "that will never work" but are now in products selling millions per month.
As for CarlA's automotive analogy, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion. Put Jimmie Johnson in a Prius and me in a M3 on a tight course, and the outcome is far from certain (well it might be more certain than I would like to admit :-)).
I think what Adam is getting at has more to do with the musician and less with the instrument. I really liked this idea " let go of what couldn't be done (at the time), and copied/adapted/used what his musical imagination told him was available to him."
It reminds me of something I learned riding bicycles. If you want to get between two closely spaced poles at speed, you have to focus on getting through the space, focus on the poles and you will probably hit one.
I am rambling here but I will ramble just a bit more because I want to comment on R2D2's remark about practice. I think practice time and focus is very significant, but there is no instrument based reason why a harp player can't practice 6 hours a day and study scales and modes. I expect that some of the ones who have made a name with their playing do.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 07, 2015 4:10 PM
Harp players - even some good ones - don't recognize the chord changes. The OP feature sax player clearly knows the chord progression and plays within it. He also uses different musical patterns and scales. It is high level stuff and not something for the 12 bars and a head-shake crowd.
It is far from impossible for a diatonic to play like that but it is going to be more associated with guys like Pat Bergeson, Sebastian Charlier, Jason Rosenblatt, Jason Ricci.. Howard, Toots.. Fred Y and as is obvious above Magic Dave..
They are switching constantly from minor to major to diminished and doing it within a chord progression that is anything but I, IV, V. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
Last Edited by GMaj7 on Mar 07, 2015 5:34 PM
I agree with a lot of what's been said in this thread so far. Personally to my ear when I hear Levy play jazz on a diatonic, it sounds awful a lot of the time. Very flat notes, to the point of almost being out of tune. That's not to take anything away from the achievements Howard has made on the instrument. Which are amazing. It's just an observation based on repeated listening. One of the reasons that overblows played by people like Todd Parrot often sound more in tune than Howard could be the sheer speed at which Howard is playing them. I'd imagine that can be something of an intonation nightmare.
Dennis Gruenling doesn't really play jazz as such. He tends to play more in a jump blues styling. His playing whilst containing some elements of early jazz, isn't anything like the style of jazz that's being played in the post this thread was opened with. He does though play with the sensibilities of a horn player and does a mighty fine job indeed.
Now Fillip Jers plays great jazz on both diatonic and chromatic. Although he approaches things more from a piano players perspective than a horn players to my ear. Alex Paclin and Konstantin Kolesnichenko may well be capable of doing what it is you're seeking to hear. Again though they also seem to play more piano lines than horn lines when they play jazz to my ear. Even most of the great jazz chromatic players seen to play more piano lines than horn lines to my ear. Possibly because those lines lay out better on the harmonica than many horn lines do for that style of jazz. I'm just guessing that of course as I don't really play jazz. Diggs or Winslow would probably be able to enlighten us more about that.So far though I haven't heard anyone do what it is your asking to hear Adam.
Comparing what harp players are doing today to what Little Walter was doing in the 50's with the harmonica when he was imitating horn lines would seem like a silly comparison to me. When Walter was imitating and being influenced by those lines he was listening to jump blues and early jazz. That is not the same thing as the type of jazz you're referring to here.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 08, 2015 1:10 AM
