Sorry for my English but I will try :) I think the the strengths of our instrument are also its weaknesses. It's affordable and sounds can be made pretty easy so there is a lot of players that simply blows in and out. It's ok as long as we just want to have some fun. But If we go deeper we need to have a deeper understanding of music. It is not only music theory but also a good ears and feeling music in general. So we have not so many musicians (versus sax players) who can improvise over progression (even blues) for a long time, that can catch the groove etc. So in this case I'm with GMaj7. Players who can feel the groove, who knows what to play in this particular time can do this: Filip Jers, Sebastian Charlier, Howard Levy, PT Gazell, Pat Bergeson, Michael Peloquin, Jason Rosenblatt, Jason RIcci,Brandan Power,Mariano Massolo, Sandy Weltman, Michel Herbelin, Fred Yonnet, Jelly Roll Johnson, Chris Michalek (rest in peace) and so on :) The blues harmonica world moves in his own way and sometimes cross the other music language. And I could not agree more with Kingley words about piano lines! (And I can add guitar lines here.) The only player that can play harmonica with a horn approach is a Magic Dave I think (I've read that he was a trombone player before). In some ways I think Howard and PT also can. I think it's because about tricky rhythmic ( not melody) approach in some patterns. I've tried so much to play in such way but I can't. :) I know every note that some sax players play but I can't reproduce them in such way only in very slow tempo. Some time ago I've tried to record some Sanborn's signature song. This record has a silly sound and to loud harmonica (thats because I've recorded it in home:) ) Sorry I don't want this to look like self promotion. It's because Sanborn was mentioned here :)
---------- Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine) my music
Last Edited by wheel on Mar 08, 2015 3:55 AM
I can't embed this video. Jim Liban can do it even without a single overblow :) http://youtu.be/OV8oiC8ZqDs ---------- Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine) my music
Wheel, you've definitely reminded me that you're a heavyweight player! You've got the spirit that I was seeking: you're pushing the harmonica into places that few of us take it. In your video directly above, I love the little repeated riff that you do in the 3:15-3:28 sequence.
Kingley: If you feel that my invocation of Little Walter is silly, you're certainly entitled to your version of Little Walter. My own feeling is that you're using everything I've contributed to this thread in a way that cautions against harmonica players reaching too high. I'd rather be the guy who exhorts people to reach too high.
Dr. Hoy: I saw a video last night of a paraplegic in a wheelchair--a cripple, you might say--who loved skate boarding. He ended up performing the first wheelchair double backflip in the world. He falls a lot. But he's living his dream. Skateboarders with working legs told him early on, "You'll never be able to do what we do." And of course that was (trivially) true. But he ignored them. He's doing things that nobody with his condition has ever done before. Now he's inspiring all the skateboarders.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 08, 2015 6:04 AM
I don't assume a short-sighted harmonica world. I assume there are totally bad ass players all over the world that may even be better than anything I've ever heard. I am sure there are players I am unaware of, especially outside the US, that can play this stuff all day.
It was a cool clip, but, IMHO, no different than any other jam to a backing track YouTube. In fact, he was playing pretty typical light jazz sax - the equivalent of a harp player jamming to a blues backing track.
Kudzurunner- I think you've completely misunderstood what I wrote and jumped straight to a defensive stance of your view without properly digesting what I've said. I'm certainly not cautioning anyone against reaching higher. Quite the opposite. I admire players who strive to reach the pinnacle of whatever path they've chosen to follow and urge all players to strive to improve. My point was and still is that stylistically though the jump blues and rudimentary jazz that Walter was inspired by is a million miles away from the type of jazz in the opening clip you posted. So using it as a comparison to attempt to imitate the types of horn lines you originally posted is like comparing the country music to trash metal. They simply aren't comparable from a stylistic point of view. Now if you posted a piano player playing jazz in that style and said why can't we do that? Then we'd be having a different conversation. The reality is that those types of horn lines are not really achievable on the harmonica in the same fashion. Personally I'd urge players to not listen just to horn players if they want to play jazz, but rather to listen to every instrument and to take what they can from each one. Instead of simply trying to focus on the one aspect of creation of jazz music. The only time I would suggest players concentrate on listening to horns more exclusively, is if they wish to replicate and/or understand where a lot of the Big Walter/Little Walter stuff comes from.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 08, 2015 6:16 AM
"Come on, Iceman. Mr. Funk. Let's see what you're made of."
I'm glad you call me Mr. Funk. You also threw down a challenge. So be it.
Have been moving from one house to another - no real internet access (aside from phone) since this was posted.
Now have internet hook up at new house, but no access to sound (remember, I have old system/equipment and am not a real techie). Will have sound soon so I can listen to the original video and see what all the talk is about.
If I respond to the internet challenge, I also don't have great capability of recording myself w/back up track and understanding how to get it up on the net, but I will see what I can do.... ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Mar 08, 2015 8:50 AM
The critique of the OB/OD guys is very unfortunate but furthermore invalid.
One can play like this without them.
Without OB/OD ind 2nd Position you can play:
The pentatonic major in 2 full octaves, the blues scale 1 complete octave and more, 2 octaves + of the diminished scale, a host of minor scales, bebop scale, and more arpeggiations that can be counted in an hour.
However, this means a little less time worrying about amps, less posting on a forum, and more time studying how these musical patterns interact.
Cowboy chord guitar players have no desire to study and master triad inversions but you will never hear them making excuses or criticizing the masterful players who do.
---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
Rather than be so consumed w/OB needed, how it sounds, etc, one can approach a challenge like this not too unlike GMaz7 says above.
It's not about needing all chromatic tones to fulfill the challenge, but rather choosing ideas from within what is available and making that work through force of will and great melodic sense. ---------- The Iceman
GMaj7 - I don't think peoples critique that overblows often sound flat or thin is unfortunate or invalid. I think it's an observation peeple make from listening. In some cases (Dennis Gruenling and Todd Parrot are very good example of this) overblows can be quite hard to distinguish from notes more commonly used by diatonic players. However in a lot of cases they also often do sound flat and sometimes thin too. That's not to put them down, it's merely an observation. Overblows often simply tend to have a different tonality to the other commonly used notes. I suspect that it's more of an intonation issue than anything else.
Your points on the availability of scales without the use of overblows is a very good one. However that still doesn't mean that the harmonica can imitate the lines of other instruments in all styles of western music. One of the reasons we play in different positions, different keys and different tunings (even on chromatics too sometimes) is that certain things lay out better than others. The same thing can be said for musical stylings by other instruments in some musical genres. Some things lay out better on some instruments than others. Which is why (I believe) we tend to hear harmonica players imitating piano lines over saxophone lines, when playing the style of jazz in the OP. That again isn't a snub to the instrument or it's players. It's merely an observation.
Last Edited by Kingley on Mar 08, 2015 9:39 AM
Blues on harmonicas[to me] is more a modal thing.it`s not played to be chromatic like a Sax.Iplay it like I play slide guitar,open tuning !if you play and know the blues language,and the dialects you don`t need to go beyond a blues 1-4-flat5-5-flat7- root.look at L.W. BLOWING ROLLER COASTER.he stays in the blues scale an hits lines like a sax.also Albert king plays almost all blues scale and I don`t miss any chromatic notes,he`s killing them blues good enough 4me...
All bends of any sort have a different timbre and are hard to control regarding intonation compared to blow and draw notes - which also have separate timbres.
Michael Peloquin's "Maceosity" from the "House of Cards" CD is worth hearing. (No relationship to the Netflix series which it predates!)
Great funky horn line playing on harp. He plays great sax, too! Harp solo at 1:45, but the whole song is worth listening to.
In my opinion Michael has not received the recognition as a great harp player that he is due. Diatonic with overbends, chromatic, sax, knows his theory and he is a great instructor.
I have no knowledge or opinions about his lesson DVDs, but I love his playing. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 08, 2015 1:11 PM
I think that it is wound be pertinent to point out that most instruments have changes in timbre albeit slightly more gradually. if not, everything would sound like a square wave or saw synthesizer- which in my ears is pretty boring. Same reason why chromatic harp bores me.
I do believe that OB/OD players need to focus on tone and really focus on intonation. but I don't see this as a failure of the instrument, but rather a deficiency in technique development. Focused practice on hearing and playing a note in tune as well as developing the skill to draw out as much as you can the harmonics that disappear in a bend- specifically the second three draw bend (A of a C harp)
This is true of all bends...most harp players do not bend to the correct pitch. More often than not, bends are flat as players pull them to the floor. The one exceptions is maybe the 3', as most players play it too sharp. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
I know there's no way I could do it. Just chump in a bar band. But if the place jumps I'm happy. But I did grow up listening to jazz 24/7 thanks to Dad. Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Coltrane, Canonball, Parker, Maynard Ferguson. I loved the sax players that really pushed the envelope like Gerry Mulligan with Steam and Eddie Harris with the echoplex . But as much as I listened with my ears open I never got much emotional attachment. But when I saw J Geils and Magic Dick live in 1971 it grabbed me by the soul and wouldn't let go. C'est La Vie......
@kudzu: "Dr. Hoy: I saw a video last night of a paraplegic in a wheelchair--a cripple, you might say--who loved skate boarding. He ended up performing the first wheelchair double backflip in the world. He falls a lot. But he's living his dream. Skateboarders with working legs told him early on, "You'll never be able to do what we do." And of course that was (trivially) true. But he ignored them. He's doing things that nobody with his condition has ever done before. Now he's inspiring all the skateboarders."
That's exactly right, as I said, he learned how to do it and then he practiced until he could do it well. We can all do this.
Last Edited by Dr.Hoy on Mar 08, 2015 2:51 PM
A lot of interesting observations on this thread. I've been playing both sax and harp for a little over 40 years. I consider myself a better harp player than sax player but when it comes to learning a melody or the head of a song, I can find it on the sax in a fraction of the time it takes to work it out on harp. While my sax playing definitely informs my harp playing, they're really different instruments with different strengths. As Toots was quoted previously, it's hard to produce the fluidity of runs with the changes in breath direction but you've got chords and double stops and a completely different range of tone with harp. And to reiterate what Danny Starwars said earlier: it all fits in your top pocket! If you play overblows, you've got 3 chromatic octaves in this little 4 inch candy bar. Unless you play altissimo, you only get 2 3/4 with an 18 pound saxophone! I know I'm preaching to the choir but there's plenty of reason to celebrate the harmonica for it's strengths.
I got a chance to play some jazz informally with some other musicians last night. I was using mostly trombone but played some harp. I did OK for the setting, but did not achieve the effect Adam is talking about. Guess what? It's not the instrument!
The Michael Peloquin track is terrific. It makes sense that a guy who played BOTH harp and sax would be one place to go for enlightenment on this issue.
I'll try to write more and respond to the many good posts here, but for now, I wanted to post one more example of a blues harmonica player stealing from a jazz horn player--in this case, a trumpet player.
The first video is classic early Louis Armstrong. The second is Blues Birdhead, a pair of remarkable recordings made in 1929 that I'm quite sure are his attempt to translate Louis's style of jazz trumpet to harmonica. I'm talking about straight-ahead blues-based jazz: trumpet, then harmonica. What should startle and impress everybody is how uncowed Birdhead seems to be by what he's attempting to do. He just plunges straight ahead, using all of his energy and creativity, and as a result he makes the harmonica do things, come up with runs and sounds that very few living players can (or seem to want to) track. He was that far ahead of his time.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Mar 09, 2015 10:27 AM
By the way Mike Turk's diatonic playing is very horn oriented. :) kudzurunner, thank you for such cool words! ---------- Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine) my music
Last Edited by wheel on Mar 09, 2015 11:49 AM
The Blues Birdhead video is flat out genius, in my view. Thanks for posting this Adam. This is the best harmonica playing I've heard in quite a long time. It pays to remain teachable. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
The more abstract that jazz becomes, the less accessible to the average listener (and the less I enjoy it).
We have a thriving jazz scene in Urbana, IL due to the jazz program at the university. Heavy hitters and students play regularly at a local music venue, with several jazz shows a week, including a weekly late night jazz jam. The venue also hosts rock, folk, blues, traditional, bluegrass, etc. shows.
I guess I only like jazz with a recognizable chord structure, preferably with some relationship to blues changes, though not necessarily that simple. I can enjoy the jazz shows up to the point that it is too much work to try to hear the structure of the changes.
I am not motivated to work at understanding abstract performances, whatever the level of virtuosity of the performers. Guess I am not a jazz head... ----------
Agree with both Komuso and dougharps above. Why would anyone want to sound like the OP? Smarmy smooth-jazz stuff just doesn't do it for me, and IMO, is also detrimental to the image of instrument it's played on -- namely, saxamaphone. Seriously, go out in to the public, find a person on the steet, and ask them about the saxaphone. I bet dollars to donuts you get something about Kenny G. or Careless Whisper. This is how the public sees the sax:
...and it's all because of smooth jazz. It's a joke.
If it were me, I would have looked to older jazz for the inspiration. Back when the music moved, and inspired. Something more like this:
Hi Isaac, I can understand that you don't like sappy uber-commercial Muzak featuring saxophone. But I don't understand how that connects with Paul's post which says jazz is dead, the least popular genre in America. Or Doug's post about abstract jazz is not popular because it's too hard to dig. Jazz is way cool, and the sax is a fantastic instrument. John Coltrane ffs. Bagging an entire genre and instrument because of Kenny G et al is like bagging rock and guitar because of ... Almost everyone...
What's the difference between connecting sax players with Kenny G and harp players with Dylan? It's the public's perception.
Last Edited by CarlA on Mar 10, 2015 2:12 PM
and i think thats a different tangent CarlA. as is the issue of whether or not one likes jazz in any form and would ever want to play a sax to play in that way... as i see it the thread is really about facility with the instrument
I know its extreme heresy on this board but sax is a lead instrument not a chording instrument.
Harp is a terrific rhythm chord and rhythm machine
They each have their place. I am not sure why one would devote tons of time to changing the paradigm and it would make more sense to just use the right tool for the job.
I am not saying it cant be done just saying that their are better choices for jazz ( sax) and harp is a better blues tool.
If we used the tool only in the way the designer intended we would be playing polkas! The harmonica is the Swiss army knife of instruments. Anything you can do with a harp there is a better single purpose tool for, but only the harp allows you to have all that versatility with you at all times! The designer of a Swiss army knife is going for the versatility, Bushman, Hohner, Richter et al had no idea what they unleashed on the world! We are still learning to use it in ways it was never meant for. Never use a screwdriver for a pry bar, but use a harp in whatever novel way your imagination leads you.
I really like the harp for playing melodic lines. Unlike Bilzharp, I find it easier on the harmonica, than my chromatic instrument, trombone, to get the melody in my head to come out of an instrument. I agree with Bilzharp that one instrument informs the other.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 10, 2015 6:31 PM
As musicians, we need to spend less on sunglasses/fedora and more time studying the music. There are plenty of players out there that can do it.
The sax player weaves in and out of the chords implying them with arpeggiations and great transitions.
It is a tough pill to swallow but it means a lot more practice and study. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
i think there is a fair amount of truth in Goldbrick's post. so...if you were a player with ambition to play jazz or play a lead soloing role in any music form, the chance you would choose a diatonic harmonica as your instrument is pretty low i think. i'd be interested to know why those harp players who do take the harp to those lengths decided to do it on harmonica. i suspect most decided to develop their playing in that direction after they'd become ensnared by the harmonica disease
Music can be anything you want, the only limitation is what you impose on yourself.
Not learning to play your instrument is one of these limits. The more you understand your chosen instrument(s) the more musical possibilities will open up. Understanding music theory is part of this, as long as that doesn't become a box that rules you. It's great to be able to analyze and understand why something works (or doesn't) though.
Your need to connect with an audience is also one of these limits. While music making has traditionally been a social glue it can also be a complete solitary pastime if you wish.
If you don't need to you connect to an audience you have complete sonic freedom. From ambient tonal exploration to experimental noise to melodic/rhythmic/harmonic genre mashups.
The bigger your need to connect to an audience the more attention you have to pay to the psychological aspects that will create an easy pathway for your target audience to latch onto.
That's why we have a pop muzak industry after all.
The cultural basis for a genre (like blues) can also impose limits on what is currently acceptable for the mainstream audience of that genre. But music has always morphed due to technological and societal changes. Where would we be without the electric grit of Urban Chicago Blues innovators?
Tone + Melody + harmony + rhythm + lyrics
Imagine it like a musical slot machine.
Pull the handle, you might surprise yourself (and others)
@Superbee: I didn't mean to make it sound as if I was bagging on the entire genre of Jazz, but reading my post back, it clearly reads as if I did. My point was that there is a large range of music in ANY genre that fits between the saccharine, trite, pop stuff and the uber-exclusive, "difficult listening" end of things. S why is it always that one of those two ends has to be the "gauntlet" that an instrument has to prove it's chops by in order to be judged "worthy" to play in that genre? Personally, I think that these types of gauntlets are exactly the things that drive people AWAY from genres and instruments -- both as listeners and musicians.
PS. After I wrote my previous post, I went over to Google Play Music and streamed early Satchmo, Bix Beiderbecke, and Duke Ellington all day long. It was a good day! ----------
Isaac, I was just trying to play along with the Louis Armstrong video and I accidentally found the notes for Careless Whisper! Yikes. I don't know what that means, but it can't be good!
I always have a hard time reconciling my feelings about sexy harp dude. Sometimes he's pretty funny, but sometimes I think he pushes it too far. :)
Don't try to beat sax player. It's impossible. Do that you can with amplified harp! ---------- http://www.youtube.com/user/dmitrysbor
Last Edited by dmitrysbor on Mar 13, 2015 12:53 AM
I can think of at least one case where it has been done: Jason Ricci covered Afro Blue on harp. I personally found it a stunning technical achievement,but ultimately musically disappointing.A harp ain't a sax. We don't ask why can't a sax play more guitar like lines. A harp has its strengths and weaknesses,just like any instrument. I do agree that we harp players(myself included) are often lacking in areas of phrasing,melody lines and following chord changes.
@Tuckster -- If you listen closely to jazz guitar players going all the way back to Charlie Christian, it's actually jazz guitarists essentially imitating sax. trumpet and trombone phrasings first. A big reason why harp players often have trouble as you mention is the sad fact that too many of them are too often far too lazy to learn even the most basic music theory and get their time straight and I've heard every damned lame excuse they've made as to why they won't bother and because of that, they're usually their own worst enemy and unlike most other harp players, i absolutely WILL hold other harp players accountable and much of the time, it's the harp player who needs to be held accountable for it. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
All the good players don`t question the harp and trying to do sax ,they`re blowin` harp for what it`s worth.assimilate is part of blues language,learn from any lick you like,but harp is only a harp it isn`t a sax.I`M sure there is a few horn players who listened to the best harp players.my self ,I learned a lot of licks from Albert King.
MY friend Sax Gordon has told me on a number of occasions that he's taken plenty of stuff from harp players and I've told him plenty of harp players have taken stuff from sax players and so that's kinda coming full circle. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
BBQ is right again: "A big reason why harp players often have trouble as you mention is the sad fact that too many of them are too often far too lazy to learn even the most basic music theory".
Even harmonica teachers don't know basic theory: "I'm talking about a level of mastery and strength that I feel from this particular sax guy's playing over what is, for much of its length, basically a one-chord vamp."-Kudzurunner,
It's a four chord vamp in Gm.
Last Edited by JInx on Mar 12, 2015 1:55 PM
"one chord", "single chord" What's the difference?
In order to play like that sax man, you've got to "play over the changes" that means understanding the harmonic movement established in the chord progression. ----------
Ok, I have done it again. It's like looking at one of those double drawings, do you see the young lady or the old one?
I took your four chord to mean the subdominant, not a quantity of 4 chords. I had read Adam's one-chord to mean a single chord but took your correction to mean that the single chord was the subdominant (four chord), not the tonic (one chord). I have not gone back to listen and see if there is a quantity of 1 or 4 chords and if there is only one, is it the tonic (I), subdominant(IV) or something else, nor am I sure I could analyze it correctly by listening. I am pretty sure now that you meant a quantity of 4 chords. Language is a tricky thing.
Poking around in the forum search, I came across this earlier-in-2015 thread and thought it was worth tossing one last time into the light of day. We had a very spirited conversation. I usually find myself on the same side of things as isaacullah but here we were on opposite sides. A lot of great playing surfaced here, and some names that don't otherwise get discussed.
Wheel, thanks for posting that tune. Wow! The speed, fluency and phrasing... Does anyone know if Mr. Therault has any recordings in that style for sale?
