harpdude61
2033 posts
Jun 25, 2014
11:39 AM
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Jnorem IS IS IS in full pucker. Looks nothing like the shape in the Barrett video. If you don't tilt, you pucker. You can easily maintain the tilt angle in the Barrett pic. The bend on the shiny metal cover plate, just above the holes,rests nicely in the corners of the open relaxed mouth. It is a natural fit. Therefore,little if any shaping of the mouth is required. I am truly amazed that some of you refuse to acknowledge the difference. You can pucker with a tilted harp or you can relax and lip block. The tilted lip block embouchure is natural. I give kids harps all the time. I am amazed at how many naturally tilt the harp and do not pucker at all.Adults assume level harp and shrink the mouth to fit the hole. Come guys..it's as different as UB and TB!
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harpdude61
2034 posts
Jun 25, 2014
11:43 AM
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The harmonica was not designed to fit the shape of the mouth. If so the top and bottom cover plates would be totally different shapes.
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CarlA
537 posts
Jun 25, 2014
12:18 PM
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Now, when will the argument over "lip blockers" -vs- harp tilting "lip blockers" commence. Common guys, we got to keep this baby rolling. It's received almost as many responses as Jason's "scratch my back" video.
P.s. Let start a thread about whether "lip blockers" are predominantly West coast and if "lip pursers" are East coasters! Then, we can spray paint our amps specific colors to distinguish one another. If you ever go to a jam and see two players with different colored amps, then your buddies can perform a "lick-by" and attempt to assail the other individuals with Little walter licks. This may be problematic, as LW was a tongue blocker!
The violence(insanity) never ends!
Last Edited by CarlA on Jun 25, 2014 12:19 PM
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dougharps
663 posts
Jun 25, 2014
12:24 PM
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Thank you for correcting me, harpdude61.
This thread has taught me that I clearly don't know how I play. I don't know if I sometimes lip block or not. I don't fish lip pucker.
I use my lips for single note lines and the odd OB on 5 or 6, I use my tongue for octaves, splits, and slaps. I tilt the harp about 20 to 30 degrees at most. I play using my mouth, tongue, throat, lungs, and diaphragm. I like playing music of all varieties, and people around here like what and how I play.
It is time for me to stop talking and reading about this stuff and just play some harp.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 25, 2014 12:25 PM
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harpdude61
2035 posts
Jun 25, 2014
12:58 PM
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Didn't mean to offend Doug, but notice Jnorem's harp is not only level but slightly past the other way. Slightly turned down. Now look at Frank's pix on page one of David Barrett with tilted harp. Nothing alike.
This post was not meant to insult (it has), not meant to say mines best (some take it that way), and not meant to show just cause to leave what you do to use it (as kudzu suggested).
I remember reading some of the threads Buddha was a part of about overblows, positions, etc..etc..I was new and afraid to comment on anything, but boy did I pay attention, absorb, ask questions, and experiment on my own. I used threads like those (and this one) to educate myself and find out what was best for me. Heck I can't roll my tongue in a U. I can do TB splits with no problem at all....and add flutters or tongue swirls. Works great if I'm centered as with single note lip blocking and TB splits, but I be damn if my brain will let me block to the left and play to the right. We are all different. If anyone from rookie to vet learned anything from this thread that made them think, rethink, or see a new better direction, then it was well worth my time.
I just finished watching the documentary COSMOS. Don't remember his name but some poor soul was burned at the stake in the 17th century because he refused to conform to the general knowledge that the Earth stood still and the sun, moon, and stars revolved around our home planet.
I guess thinking outside the box can be dangerous.
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isaacullah
2834 posts
Jun 25, 2014
1:12 PM
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Okay, one last contribution, vainly hoping that this will help clarify what's going on (although it's interesting to see the "critiques" of this topic, especially from those who just chime in to say what a long thread this is).
Here's a vid showing all three of my lip-based embouchure classifications (tight purse, loose purse, and lip block).
EDIT: Video is now rotated right side up!
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
Last Edited by isaacullah on Jun 26, 2014 6:30 AM
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dougharps
664 posts
Jun 25, 2014
6:21 PM
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@harpdude
You didn't offend with your posts. I am just frustrated that my understanding of lip blocking was not accurate, and I had posted several explanations of that incorrect understanding.
I think I should refrain from attempting instruction or explanations, and just read the forum for recreation and information.
Of course I will continue to play harmonica because I love making music.
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Doug S.
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jnorem
325 posts
Jun 25, 2014
6:36 PM
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@harpdude61 ""Jnorem IS IS IS in full pucker. Looks nothing like the shape in the Barrett video."
I'd like to see the Barrett video. Where is it?
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Call me J
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harpdude61
2040 posts
Jun 25, 2014
7:23 PM
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Jnorem.. I meant photo on page one of this thread. Not video. I just posted a video.
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jnorem
327 posts
Jun 25, 2014
7:27 PM
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Okay, I see. No, my embouchure is quite different from Mr. Barrett's.
And I wish you guys would start calling me J. It says right down there, "Call me J". So please, call me J.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jun 25, 2014 7:27 PM
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KDT
22 posts
Jun 26, 2014
4:42 AM
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When I started playing the harmonica a couple of years ago, I struggled for weeks trying to get a clean single note that didn't sound pinched. I then discovered what harpdude is calling lip blocking. I had my single note in 5 minutes. For me, the terms pucker/lip purse created mental images that were counter productive. I was very close to giving up on the harmonica all together. That would have been really sad, as making music has opened up a whole new area of my life.
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isaacullah
2835 posts
Jun 26, 2014
6:34 AM
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@dougharps and KDT: Your posts here are EXACTLY why I feel so strongly that this is an important topic, and a great thread. Strong debate is healthy (I'm a scientist, and debate is the core of the scientific method), and I enjoy the process of presenting evidence and arguements to see what my colleagues make of it. IN science, we never know anything "for sure" (that's a tenet of science), but we have very good probable explanations, backed by evidence. Your stories are yet more evidence that it is important to separate out the Lip Block as an embouchure distinct from "pursing".
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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harpdude61
2042 posts
Jun 26, 2014
12:43 PM
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KDT...AWESOME!!
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1847
1905 posts
Jun 26, 2014
6:05 PM
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Lip Block
Upper lips are anesthetized from two points, one on each side of the angle of the mouth (Figure 5). A total of 5 to 10 mL of anesthetic is injected along two lines in the direction of the nasal alae.
For lower lip anesthesia, the needle is injected at the midpoint of the chin and soft tissues are infiltrated obliquely upward toward the angle of the mouth (Figure 5). A total of 10 to 15 mL of anesthetic generally is required.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1906 posts
Jun 26, 2014
6:10 PM
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2.
Pucker
(v.) A state where the rim of the rectum contracts and causes imbalance and partial blindness. This is often followed by the massive power-trips and the collision of body to ground. Recent studies done by scientist Nathan baily have shown this disorder is 1000% more likely in power-tripping, middle aged, bald, stealers fans.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1907 posts
Jun 26, 2014
6:12 PM
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Pucker
The anus.
Kathy's got a tight pucker.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Harpaholic
468 posts
Jun 26, 2014
6:34 PM
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Technically speaking pucker is lip blocking, your using your lips to block all the holes but the one in the middle.
I can play the same way as demonstrated without tilting the harp with the same tone and I'm sure most pucker players can. By tilting the harp it makes it harder to grasp.
I TB 75% of the time. My tone doesn't change when I tilt the harp using this technique which proves to me that it's pointless.
TB'ing and Pucker, that's all there is! Just different ways to do both.
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Frank
4672 posts
Jun 26, 2014
6:50 PM
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Harpaholic where were you 150 posts ago :)
"pucker is lip blocking" ...
Elvis has officially left the building :)
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harpdude61
2044 posts
Jun 26, 2014
7:16 PM
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Sorry harpoholic...read kudz response on the video thread. I doubt you or any player would find it pointless if it is what works best for you.
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harpdude61
2045 posts
Jun 26, 2014
7:21 PM
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1847 you add so much. We just can't wait to get to the forum to see if you have posted so we can enjoy your wit! I might not always agree with the posters on these threads, just wish I knew how to be insulting, yet funny enough not to get the thread locked or my wrist slapped by the powers that be.
Of course you would never poke fun at people trying to learn, innovate, grow, and maybe even help a new player just a little.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Jun 26, 2014 7:22 PM
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Harpaholic
469 posts
Jun 26, 2014
10:13 PM
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All I'm saying is If one can achieve the same results without tilting the harp, and I believe anyone can then its pointless.
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Frank
4674 posts
Jun 27, 2014
4:16 AM
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But Harpholic, "WHY" isn't lip blocking (recognized) when it is clearly a unique embouchure unto itself?
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 27, 2014 4:18 AM
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1847
1909 posts
Jun 27, 2014
7:46 AM
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, just wish I knew how to be insulting, yet funny enough not to get the thread locked or my wrist slapped by the powers that be.
it's easy, just keep using the term "lip block"
that is insulting, while being quite funny at the same time.
what was it i said, that you found so insulting?
was it, the post where i said you have a great band?
or was it the part where i said i admire and respect you?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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harpdude61
2048 posts
Jun 27, 2014
8:34 AM
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You are a good guy 1847. You are insulting something that is real to some of us. Adam is even listening. As always, any forum member has the option of not visiting or re-visiting a thread they do not agree with or causes them stress.
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Harpaholic
470 posts
Jun 27, 2014
9:25 AM
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Its not unique imo, just a different way to pucker.
I've seen harp players tilt the harp horizontally we don't have a term for that because there all variations of two styles.
I agree the term Lip Blocker is funny and I don't see the point in going any farther.
If you or anyone else want to call it LB'ing, I'm OK with that.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jun 27, 2014 9:29 AM
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1847
1910 posts
Jun 27, 2014
9:42 AM
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IF "Con" is the Opposite of "Pro", then what is the opposite of PROGRESS?
interesting, you start a thread asking why isn't lip blocking recognized,
then when someone tries to explain why they fail to recognize the term lip blocker,
you suggest they not post.
here is time is tight's s post, he express it better than i can.
If we're going to "recognize" and distinguish between lip embouchure then we should recognize top-of-tongue-, bottom-of-tongue-, side-of-tongue-, and tip-of-tongue-blocking as officially distinct MBH embouchure.
Or, maybe we could just call it the tongue-on-the harp embouchure and the tongue-off-the-harp embouchure and leave it at that.
why is the term pucker so offensive? is it because everyone calls you catfish?
i suppose lip purse also has a bad connotation, someone equated that to a fish lip embouchure.
why is a boxing ring square, does that upset you also?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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tmf714
2621 posts
Jun 27, 2014
10:01 AM
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harpdude61
2050 posts
Jun 27, 2014
12:57 PM
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1847 and tmf...Okay, Lip pursing is lip blocking....fair enough.
SO what we must do is come up with two terms that specify which type of lip blocking the player is doing.
How about..
LIP BLOCK PURSE
LIP BLOCK TILT
Add in tongue blocking and U blocking and we have 4 distinct styles.
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CarlA
541 posts
Jun 27, 2014
1:03 PM
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Congrats!! This thread surpassed the "scratch my back" thread. No easy feat!!
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nacoran
7844 posts
Jun 27, 2014
1:05 PM
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Control and name all the variables. That's what a scientific approach says to do. Sometimes you may find a variable doesn't vary anything, but until you identify it and studied it you have no idea if that's the case.
Say your spouse is about to repaint the house. They've got it down to 'woodland hills green' 'kiwi' and 'buckingham gardens'. Yeah, they are all sort of pale greens, but they are in fact different and if you want a specific color you are going to be disappointed if they hand you the wrong thing.
I was told to pucker and I ripped my lips up. No one taught me there was a difference. I eventually discovered it on my own (although I still didn't have a word for it). I have had 3 run stretches of harmonica in my life. First, as a high school aged kid I had a tremolo my grandmother bought me. I played it just enough to work out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. The second was maybe 10 years later. I got a Blues Harp to play in a band. I practiced a few hours and gave up because it was ripping my lips up. Another few years later I got some cheap Piedmonts that didn't rip my lips up. I practiced and eventually got into harp enough that I was willing to deal with the pain of ripped lips on better harps. Then my technique evolved and I figured out how to do what I'd now call lip blocking. Now, my first two attempts were before the explosion of the internet as a source of all hobby knowledge, but I'd like to think that if I was starting out now someone could say, well, here try this just a little differently. Now, you can describe a color as X amount of color A and X amount of color B, but if you give it a name people will be able to start to examine it and categorize it. I mean, we could go back to saying 'you stick the harmonica in your mouth and blow' but there obviously are differences between LP and TB.
I've heard the description of a couple different things you can do with your lip, and I do them, using them for different effect. I can either describe them in great detail each time they come up, or I can label them and teach people what I mean by those things. If I say, hey, I'm going to lip block on warbles, and people know what I mean by that, isn't that a good thing?
Of course, whenever you are defining a new term, you have to try to make sure it's going to be something you can actually explain. Unfortunately, with the harmonica in the way it's kind of hard to show exactly what is going on. I'm going to try an experiment. The next time I'm at the harmonica store I'm going to buy a cheap harp and hand it to a non-harmonica playing friend and see if I can describe the different embouchures to him and see if we can't get the opinion of someone without a horse in the race to see if they see a difference. :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Frank
4696 posts
Jun 27, 2014
1:26 PM
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Why do you think it's not recognized Nate, seriously why? the term "lip blocking" has been around for 100 or more years, yet pushed under the rug by the elites of the harmonica community...we need answers - can you shed some light on this 10,000,000,000 question ? It's about time to give LBing its proper due! :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 27, 2014 1:31 PM
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