This past weekend, I received a nice new Hering Sonhadora 8348 tremolo harp as a Christmas gift from my grandparents. I love it. It sounds heavenly and rich in the short time that I've had and played with it.
My band is planning to start rehearsing a couple of Black Crowes tunes to add to the setlist (Jealous Again & Twice as Hard), and our guitarist has asked me to start listening to the organ parts to try and emulate them. Luckily enough, the two songs are both in G, and the Sonhadora is in C, so cross works in theory. I figure the tremolo should present some nice organ tones.
I was wondering if anyone had any good ideas for cupping a harp of that size to a mic for amplified use. I've done it pretty well with a MB364S, but this trem harp is a completely different size and animal. Any thoughts or recommendations? ----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jan 08, 2014 12:24 PM
I use a tremolo harp on occasion but tend to play it acoustically rather than amplified. One thing to be careful about if you do try to play amplified with these is that there is a tendency to feedback a lot quicker than you think.
As far as cupping, whatever feels comfortable for you is the most important and you gotta take some time to woodshed to find the sweet spot that works for you.
Note bending can be done, but you can't bend both draw/blow reeds in the same hole and you absolutely cannot use the harder breath force on the bends (which, unfortunately is the way that most self taught players tend to do to bend notes) because if you do, it's gonna blank out on you in a NY minute.
The tune I usually use one on is Slim Harpo's Raining In My Heart and my approach tends to be more like an accordion (specifically Zydeco styled accordion) and the Hohner 2409 that I use is tuned to JI and so the chords sound sweet.
Listening to organ as well as accordion parts can help out some. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Split octaves sound great on tremolos. Very organ like. (I've got a pair of Huang Musettes that I like, and some cheaper Blessing harps.) The Huangs came as a pair in C/C# for chromatic playing. Mostly I just use them for organ sounds though.
I haven't heard of many people who bend notes on them regularly (I think Dave Payne said he used them that way). It can be done, but you have to isolate one hole, top or bottom to do it well.
I haven't played a curved harp, but you may be able to get some compression by blocking holes with your cheek, but you may not get the tight compression for a really overdriven sound. Another possibility might be something like Walter Torre's rig, with something put over the back of the harp to create a cup. Breath can substitute for hand wah a bit.
isn't that an octave harp? none the less cup it tight just like your ten holer,just without the mike. you'll be able to get good organ like sound with your hands just get close enough for the mike to pick up up and use your tongue and hands for leslie tone cabinet effect. have fun
Cupping for hand tremolo doesn't require cupping the whole harp. And if you do a Sonny Terry "windmill" (rotating the forearm in a large circle from the elbow) you can can an acoustic version of a Leslie.
You can bend blow or draw notes. The trick is to 1) isolate the top row and 2) make sure the note you want to bend is paired in your mouth with a lower-pitched note on the opposite breath (e.g., Blow C with draw A for a blow bend on the C note). What you have to watch out for on some Hohner tremolos is the hole punched in the "floor"between the upper and lower rows. This prevents isolation of one row, but you can fix that with a dab of wood glue applied with the tip o a toothpick. ---------- Winslow
@nacoran: Wow, I never even considered attempting a split octave on my tremolo! I can imagine that would sound huge, although thats going to be an awfully wide span to cover with my mouth and I don't think my mouth is big enough. Maybe I should teach my wife this one. OOOOOHH!!! Just kidding, just kidding.
Winslow is absolutely spot on in his post and I tend to approach bending notes on tremolo harps more like the way one would need to do when you're playing a chromatic and too much breath force will prevent the bends from working at all.
@Clyde -- An octave harp is a TOTALLY different animal because you have two reed plates with one plate with a set of reeds an octave higher than the other, whearas with a tremolo harp, it's more like one set of reed plates is pitched at about A444-A445 and the other at about A440-A442, and that's where the tremolo effect comes in and octave harps don't do that stuff at all (however, with an octave harp like the El Centennario, instead of plates one octave apart, it's actually two octaves apart).
I've done octaves with a tremolo, but that often means you'll have to open your mouth more and the tongue blocks out more holes, which is more along the lines of a chromatic.
You get more of a Leslie like effect if you ditch the throat vibrato and do a vibrato the chromatic harp great Larry Adler much preferred over the throat vibrato, and that using the LP method and then doing more of a tongue roll or sort of like saying la-la-la-la-la, and then take some time woodshedding to get control of the speed. I find this much nicer for a Leslie effect not only for single notes, but for chords, double stops (AKA chord partials) and octaves as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hawkeye: You better first determine if that thing's tuned to standard Richter layout, or if it's tuned to Solo layout. I've got some long 3-octave Leo Shi tremolo and octave harps, and they are all tuned to Solo layout (although they call them "Sequence Scale" layout). This means (for blues) you have to play them as you play third position on a richter (ie. use holes 1, 4, etc. as the tonic). But that means you're playing D on a C, and not in G like you are thinking. You can also easily play them very expressively using the 2 and 5 draw as your tonic, but that puts you in F on a C harp (like 12th position on a richter). If you really want to play in G, then it's gonna be harder to play bluesy, since you'd be using a blow note for your tonic (blow 3, 6, etc.). Now, IF that herring IS tuned to richter, then your logic is sound, but with a long octave harp like that Herring you've got, I think it's probably tuned to Solo. I think only the Hohner Auto-valve and a very few other octave harps are tuned in richter (I've got an Auto-Valve, which I love!), and they usually keep more to the form factor of a ten-hole diatonic, but with knittlinger combs..
As for cupping them, I don't find it to be such a big issue. I use a stick mic, though, so perhaps I've got more room in my cup than if I used bullets. I do the "Adam Gussow" style cup (both hands held together like you are trying to hold water in them), and that works with these kinds of harps. In that cup position, I wrap the thumb of my right hand around the front of the harp (usually at about the 7 hole), and the left end of the harp is stuck into the meat at the base of my left thumb. You just have to get used to having A LOT of harp sticking out to the right side of your cupped hands! But I've got a big Leo Shi bass harp that I routinely cup this way with out issue. And a cupped octave harp like that Herring you've got sounds mean as hell when amped up! ----------
Okay...first off, yes, I misspoke. It's an octave harp and not a trem. Still sounds like a Hammond though! :-)
And I'm having trouble tracking down info on the tuning setup of the darn thing. Hering's site is apparently down for construction. Harp Depot says they're sold out and don't give any details. Buckeye Music, where my grandmother purchased the harp, doesn't have any info on it. Can someone help me out here? Hering is getting really obscure these days.
Markdc70, it's not too bad, a 1-7 split is still a lot easier than some of the fancy stuff like a 1-3-5.
That said, just about any split will sound like an organ on a tremolo. Actually, one of my favorite techniques on a tremolo is to play the melody on the right side while keeping the left side on a pedal tone as much as possible.
I don't have any experience with octave harps though, although I'd like to hear a tongue blocked octave on one. Would it sound funny? You'd have 3 octaves playing, with a doubling of the second, right?
That's correct, Nate. The second octave note is doubled, which means it might be making some tremolo too! If I get a chance later today, I'll record an octaved-tremoloed-octave for ya! :) ----------
@Hawkeye: I headed over to Pat Missin's page to see if there's a chance that this kind of harp is in Richter tuning, and it turns out that there is indeed a chance: http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q36.html
Seems that Asian tremolo/octave harps are usually tuned Solo, and that European ones are usually tuned richter, regardless of form-factor (i.e., whether they are on knittlinger combs like my Auto-Valve or viennese combs like your herring). So the big question is: Does Herring follow the western or the eastern tradition? It seems to me that in general they mainly follow the western harmonica tradition, so there's a good chance they tune their octave/tremolo harps to richter layout.
Why don't you just try jamming on it in second position to a backtrack in G? If it sounds good, then it's in Richter. If it sounds like crap, then it's in Solo! ----------
Well....after playing along with Twice as Hard, I'm inclined to believe it's solo tuned. But that's no biggie in my estimation. I was still able to play some nice rich organ type stuff with the track. Jealous Again may prove more difficult. But if all else fails, I still have my 364S, and my C and G diatonics I can play it with in 1st or 2nd position. I'll let you all know how it turns out.
As for getting a good cup with the Sonhadora, I have yet to experiment. My Kalamazoo has a tremolo effect that I've used for organ tone before, so I'll try that. I have three different mics I intend to try with the octave harp: EV630, JT30, and DM13. I'm gonna look into Walter Tore's DIY methods, as well as seeing if anyone else out there might have a neat rig for a harp of this type, like a G-Rig type of thing maybe. ----------
The closest thing to a Leslie like effect outside of a Leslie unit itself or buying a Leslie simulator pedal like Neo Ventilator is getting a vintage Magnatone amp, which are often going for big money on the vintage market because that has a true vibrato (tremolo and vibrato are often used interchangeably in amps even tho they are vastly different animals) unit that does actual pitch changing and many guitar players often bought them specificaly for those units. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I know! Vibrato and tremolo so often get mixed up in their definitions when it comes to the amp market. Pretty much every Fender I've come across that said "Vibrato" on the faceplate was actually a signal oscillating tremolo. Some of the new issue Magnatones have true pitch-shifting vibrato built in as well. Heck the Single V and Super Fifty-Nine are switchable from vibe to trem!
I've thought about piecing together a homemade Leslie cabinet. But I really only have the know-how to build a single woofer unit. The whole treble horn thing kinda sends my head spinning.
But the tremolo on my Zoo has given me good results in the past when just playing solid, unbent notes to achieve organ tone. Between that and the feedback theremin effect i like to fool around with, that tremolo is proving to be a welcome feature. I may look into a Leslie simulator though. Might be a good investment.
I just re-read the Pat Missin page that Isaac posted. Seems Clyde is correct. Missin says that the East/West variation of tuning between Richter or Solo applies to tremolo harps, not octave harps. But that's odd because I'd swear this thing sounds solo tuned....
Tim, when I was a young harp player in my 20s someone gave me a curved Hohner Echo octave series harp for my birthday. I played with it for a year or so and then gave it away. I never found any real use for it. it made pretty sounds but I was playing in an outlaw country band at the time and it didn't really fit in.
Friends have given me all kinds of harp related gifts over the years: One of those giant plastic Marine Bands, weird old off-brand harps, mics, speakers, non-working amps, etc, etc.
Yeah, I get oddball harp related stuff from friends and family from time to time. Some of it's useful to me, some not so much. What isn't useful often either gets shelved until I find a use for it, or becomes a mantle piece like my Up-to-Date Goliath that my mother found in an antique shop. It has a few broken reeds in it that I'd love to get fixed at some point, but for now it looks very pretty in its original box sitting on the mantle.
The Sonhadora however, appears to have some use to me at this point in time. I could see where outlaw country might prompt you to part with the Echo, but the Hering came to me at an opportune time to implement it. Not to mention it's a Hering model that's becoming more and more scarce here in the states, and the fact that it was hunted down by my grandmother makes it even more special.
@Nate
Yeah....I have a tuner app on my phone. Maybe I'll give that a shot this weekend. ----------
Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jan 09, 2014 1:54 PM
I had to do it on the Hohner Auto-Valve, as the distance between the octaved notes was just too damn wide on my Leo Shi octave harp (seriously, it was wider than my mouth).
And, for S&G's, I decided to make a quick recording of some blues playing on the Leo Shi (Solo layout, played in "3rd" position (D on a C harp)) and the Auto-Valve (Richter, played in 2nd (G on a C harp)).
The Leo Shi's lowest notes are equivalent to a Regular C harp over a Low C, whereas the Auto-Valve is equivalent to a High C over a Regular C. I think that the lower sound of the Leo Shi, coupled with the ability to get an unbent minor third in 3rd position, sounds much better than the higher Auto-Valve in 2nd and with a major third (I can't even bend the Auto-Valve because it has windsavers).
@Hawkeye: Perhaps the Herring is Richter, but the layout is simply shifted up or down a hole? Try centering on the 3 hole and playing as if it were 2nd position (or the 1 hole). Does that sound better to the back track?
People talk about getting lost on the larger chromatic harps when recommending chromatic harps to beginners. So I have to ask - how do you _not_ get lost on one of these tremolo harps?
Isaac, nice demonstration! I definitely like the sound of the Leo Shi better. I didn't even realize that there were low and high octave harps.
Keith, not all tremolos are huge. My Blessings aren't much bigger than a diatonic. The Huangs are huge, but in some ways they actually make more sense layout wise than Richter if you are just trying to find notes.
