isaacullah
2541 posts
Oct 11, 2013
10:28 AM
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Do you work on your own harmonicas? Do you set the profile of your reeds? Well, take part in this poll then!
POLL:
1) Which of the following 5 profiles do you view as "most correct"? You have to choose only one.
2) Describe the profile you actually use.
Extra credit questions:
3) Why did you choose your answer for number 1?
4) Why do you use the profile you actually use (if different from your previous answer)?
NOTE: All profiles drawn with the same gap spacing at the free end of the reed. I've drawn the gaps very wide as a sort of "vertical exaggeration" of the profiles to make the differences more visible on this diagram.
EDIT: I updated the poll questions slightly for clarity.
Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 11, 2013 1:53 PM
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Kingley
3186 posts
Oct 11, 2013
10:59 AM
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I probably use something that's somewhere between 1 & 2. Why? I've just found over time that it's what seems to work best for my style of playing.
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tookatooka
3546 posts
Oct 11, 2013
1:12 PM
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I suppose I aim for 1 but end up with 2.
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the_happy_honker
168 posts
Oct 11, 2013
2:00 PM
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Between 1) and 2) here too. Reeds on holes 1 - 3 look closer to 2. The higher the harp and the higher the hole, the more the reeds look like 1).
When I first started profiling, the lowest reeds looked like 5. I reasoned that this profile has the least amount of area availible for airflow, and this airflow is concentrated at the free end of the reed. It responded quickly enough, but the volume and fullness of the note just wasn't there.
So I've been moving the "hinge" on the low reeds further and further back until the hinge is about a fifth or so of the slot length.
Hingeing (is that a word?) at the very edge of the slot makes the low reeds unstable and prone to unpleasant low frequency overtones, in my experience.
Last Edited by the_happy_honker on Oct 11, 2013 2:12 PM
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harpwrench
699 posts
Oct 11, 2013
2:10 PM
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It really depends on the milled profile of the reed, and also if/how it was embossed.
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9000
178 posts
Oct 11, 2013
2:31 PM
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"It really depends on the milled profile of the reed, and also if/how it was embossed."
It helps me to be reminded that there is no one size fits all approach to this. Some of the harps that I've worked on play really well but some times I really get stumped and can't figure it out. I'm never going to take work away from any customizer! LOL I sure appreciate Joe and the others who help us by sharing here on the forum!
All the best,
Jay
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Music speaks where words fail.
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chromaticblues
1482 posts
Oct 12, 2013
5:08 AM
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None of the above.
#2 would be easy to fix by pushing the reed down about 3/4 the way down the reed from the rivet to the tip would set the gap and curve at the same time. #1 I would set it flush with the plate then gaping it while holding the middle of the reed down with a small screw driver. Now that is for longer reeds. The shorter reeds you could just gap it with a .002" or .003 feeler gauge.
#3 I would hold a small screw driver against the reed through the slot against the point where it bends there in the middle. Then push down on the tip untill it is almost staight. Not removing all the bend, but darn close. Then it would have to be pushed up through the slot close to the rivet slightly.
#4 would also be an easy one to fix. I would just push it down at the tip and that should set the gap and straighten it out enough so that it has a easy gradual bend. Some times with reeds like that doing what I described will push the whole reed down to far then you'll have to push up a little at the rivet end.
#5 remove almost all of the bend then push up in the middle of the reed. That should do it.
This is all just the first thing I would do. You have to have a reed shape in mind and work toward that.
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S-harp
183 posts
Oct 12, 2013
8:55 AM
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I agree with chrom-blues ... "none of the above"
Also agree with harpwrench ..." depends .../..."
I'd like to turn it around ... the worst ones are 5 and 3.
#5 has a dip at the middle
#3 dips under reedplate-level 1 third from the rivet.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
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boris_plotnikov
884 posts
Oct 13, 2013
10:54 AM
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Mostly #4 (in general tip is lower), with some variety.
I hate reed responce when it goes under surface at any point. Also, I prefer tone and articulation of arked reed (a bit brighter and more prominent staccatto) over straight reed.
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My videos.
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jim
1473 posts
Oct 13, 2013
12:04 PM
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you're all talking about reed shaping. Profiling is a totally different thing and I'm quite sure none of you are doing it.
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nacoran
7226 posts
Oct 13, 2013
12:04 PM
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6)
I think most people will eventually come around to #6. I've mastered the difficult 3 loop method, originally hypothesized Madcow Gehrig, of the Prestige Harmonica University College, Downtown/Uptown Providence. I have used their method for years now. Why, just yesterday, I 'Prestige Harmonica University College, Downtown/Uptown Providence'd a reed.' It will never play the same!
:) Okay, I apologize for the profanity. Just a little punch drunk today.
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Nate
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Kingley
3201 posts
Oct 13, 2013
12:11 PM
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" Profiling is a totally different thing and I'm quite sure none of you are doing it."
Jim - So please tell us what you think profiling reeds is then.
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S-harp
185 posts
Oct 13, 2013
12:17 PM
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" you're all talking about reed shaping. Profiling is a totally different thing and I'm quite sure none of you are doing it. "
I'd say profiling includes all manipulation with the reed's shape, scooping the sides/ends included. Setting the curvature/arc is therefor also profiling in my book.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
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smwoerner
226 posts
Oct 13, 2013
6:27 PM
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The proper profile is the one that allows the reed to play the way that you want it to play.
This may seem like a simple or Zen kind of answer but, it’s not. It is a hard learned lesson.
How many times have you had something that just worked? It didn’t squeak, it didn’t bind, it didn’t chafe, it didn’t clunk and it just did exactly what it was supposed to do. However, it didn’t look like it should work so well. For some reason in your mind it just didn’t look correct. So, you adjust it to what you believe should be correct and from that point forward it never seems to work quite as good as before.
Where I expect many people mess up adjusting harps is that they adjust a poor playing hole to where it plays substantially better than before and then they try to adjust the other ones to look similar and in doing so create a problem that previously did not exist.
If the three hole does not play well, then adjust it. But, while the harp is apart don’t adjust the two hole just because it looks wrong. Remember that it played fine before and probably still will, unless you fix it.
Oh, Jim, I once had my nose shaped by a tree and had a substantial impact on my profile.
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Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
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nacoran
7228 posts
Oct 13, 2013
8:07 PM
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Kingly, my understanding is 'actual' profiling is adjusting how thin the reed is along it's length. GH had a great post about it a very long time ago that I don't have a link to handy. I think he'd just toured the Hohner factory. In practice, the word is used to refer to both, but it may be more correct to call one shaping and one profiling.
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Nate
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Sherwin
87 posts
Oct 13, 2013
8:19 PM
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Here's my most recent method.....
'Number five' on blow reeds one to six.
'Number one' on draw reeds one to six (but mostly straight; perhaps one third of tip enters at once, sometimes very tip first.
'Number one' on blow and draw reeds seven to ten (perhaps veering towards shape of example 'Number two').
Got it refined enough so that after reed shaping harp requires very little gapping adjustment: mostly on top end to make blow bends smoother.
Made a lot of harps shaping all reeds as per example number one (as much as possible entire length of reed enter slot at same time), found that harps sounded brash/loud, not my thing. I also found that adjusted to bend well they choked too readily: and adjusted not to choke, they were unresponsive and bends sucked. It's a balancing act I know, but that's been my experience.
I don't emboss my harps, and this latest method I'm using is for my blues setup.
Anyone else doing anything like what I'm doing? Sound crazy?
Sincerely...Sherwin
Posted in edited form to defeat captcha
Last Edited by Sherwin on Oct 13, 2013 8:55 PM
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boris_plotnikov
885 posts
Oct 14, 2013
1:03 AM
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Forgot to add. My opinion that 3 and 5 are entirly wrong, as if reed goes under plate surface it totally kills responce, as it leads to too easy choke. Reed starts to choke at very strange moments and attacks and playing become a nightmare.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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HarveyHarp
530 posts
Oct 14, 2013
7:51 AM
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Nacoran's drawing is what happens if you are not careful when you raise the pitch of a reed.
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HarveyHarp
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Frank
3002 posts
Oct 14, 2013
7:59 AM
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That's reed yoga - very zen, very inner meditative work going on there - as long as you let the reed breathe freely and deeply while it is in that pretzel pose - the tone will radiate with full rich colors...its a process, believe - embrace the beauty of the contoured reed as it vibrates in it's contorted profile :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 14, 2013 8:00 AM
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arzajac
1182 posts
Oct 14, 2013
8:05 AM
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I vote for none of the above. Looking at the shape of the reed at rest doesn't tell you what you need to know. All the magic happens as the reed goes through the slot. That's the shape that determines what the reed will look like at rest. It's a constant - straight - all the reed passes through at the same time.
You will notice that the sound you get when you plink the reed gets better, louder and has more sustain when you get close to the ideal shape. Not to mention the response and tone when you play the reed.
It's a dynamic process so here's a video:
The shape of a reed will determine how well it plays. What's the best way to shape a reed?
A reed will respond best, sounds loudest and has the best timbre if all of the reed passes through the slot at the same time. There is no reliable way to guarantee this will happen by looking at the reed at rest. You must push it through the slot to see "high" and "low" spots.
Where you push depends on the reed.
Here, I am using indirect light. The camera does not capture a lot of detail, but it does clearly show the process. As I was looking through these three slots, I could see a slit of light all the way to the back of the reed - the low video quality makes it seem like the reed dips below the reedplate before the rivet end. The entire slit of light - from front to back - disappears all at the same time.
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Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 14, 2013 8:21 AM
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Kingley
3205 posts
Oct 14, 2013
9:33 AM
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Thank you for that Andrew and for taking the time to make it. That's a very helpful video example for people to see what we're talking about.
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isaacullah
2543 posts
Oct 14, 2013
11:00 AM
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Thank you everyone for the excellent responses. I think we are learning a lot! I am gleaning some general trends: 1) "profile" of the reed includes the milled thickness of the reed along it's length, and that affects the "curvature" you apply to it to make it perform ideally, 2) "ideal" curvature of reeds with same "profile" will also vary with the pitch of the reed, 3) the type of curvature will have an audible effect on the way the reed sounds/plays, 4) Different folks prefer the effect of different "curvatures". Additionally, it appears that some people approach profiling from the standpoint of inducing a pre-specified curve, whereas other approach it from a "trial and error" perspective, and adjust it until it "sounds right".
So, let's add something new to this thread. Here's a new drawing:
Note that I've added some color to make it more interpretable, and I've lowered the reed gap to a more realistic level. Using the "bezier curve" function of my graphics program (Inkscape), I've induced an "inflexion point" in each of the 5 reeds. The location of this inflexion point on each reed is indicated by the arrows. I have made the inflexion lightly curved (i.e., not a harsh angle), and have shown the effect it would have on the rest of the reed if the rest of the reed were kept as straight as possible, and remaining above the reedplate at all points.
The new poll is: what is your preferred starting point when approaching the "profiling" (using the term generally) of a new reed. That is to say, allowing for some variation due to initial reed dimensions and milled profile, how do you prefer to start setting the profile? What is your initial "go to" shape, before applying fine tuning?
If you don't approach profiling with a "go to" starting shape, then which of these shapes is closest to the most common ending shape after you've profiled the reed they way you prefer? (i.e., tuned it to sound or to light leakage when flexed, etc.)
EDIT: Also note that I've made sure that the gap remains about the same in all 5 profiles. None of the reed profiles drawn are meant to dip into the reedslot at any point along the length of the reed. I've tried to make that more clear on this new drawing.
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 14, 2013 12:10 PM
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nacoran
7229 posts
Oct 14, 2013
11:10 AM
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When I gap my harps I use the bank slip method. I slide the bank slip (or other piece of paper) down the entire length of the reed and lift lightly. If I go to0 far I use a craft pick to push it lightly back into place, applying pressure about the middle of the reed. That seems to usually give me something tending towards 1, but maybe as far as 3, but I really only do it to new harps, and sometimes then only if I've got a problem reed, and I don't routinely use overblows.
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Nate
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Frank
3009 posts
Oct 14, 2013
11:10 AM
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With a tool, I'll do a quick massage on and up the reed - where it will end up looking like (2)...then I'll slide the tool under and up the reed to give me (1)...then check to see how its entering the slot...if that is cool - I'm all smiles :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 14, 2013 11:13 AM
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JInx
579 posts
Oct 14, 2013
12:30 PM
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awesome! thanks isaacullah
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isaacullah
2544 posts
Oct 14, 2013
12:42 PM
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I'll add that my "go to" initial shape has been either 2 or 1 for lower reeds, and 1 for higher reeds.
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isaacullah
2545 posts
Oct 14, 2013
12:42 PM
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EDIT: deleted double posting.
Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 14, 2013 12:42 PM
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Sherwin
89 posts
Oct 14, 2013
5:01 PM
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So, I think nobody aside from me has mentioned giving reeds in the same hole different shapes. Maybe others also do, would love to hear from others who do, and why.
Sherwin
Last Edited by Sherwin on Oct 14, 2013 5:10 PM
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jim
1474 posts
Oct 15, 2013
2:34 AM
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Profiling is the change in thickness as you go along the reed.
Various reed profiles have different playing characteristics.
You can really alter reed profiles only when the reed is not installed on the instrument, unless you know some fancy way of grinding metal equally on both sides at the same time.
Time-consuming. Reed-consuming. Expensive.
Great results though, once you spoil 100 reeds and know what you're searching for.
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Baker
337 posts
Oct 15, 2013
3:59 AM
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I guess mine look most like 2 in the second diagram. However I push the reed down into the slot at the rivet end and then try and keep it as straight as possible from this point to the free end as it rises back above the reed plate.
So it's not curved but had a curve in it as it changes "direction". The reed at the rivet end dips into the slot so it's almost flush with the surface of the reed plate, then bends upward slightly to allow the tip clearance. I try to set it so at the point where the reed passes through the slot everything thing is a straight as possible.
This keeps as much of the reed "submerged" below the surface of the reed plate as possible, only the last few millimetres rise above the reed plate – the amount depends on the length of the reed. The shorter the length of the reed the less of a dip near the rivet end is possible.
Last Edited by Baker on Oct 15, 2013 4:01 AM
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chromaticblues
1484 posts
Oct 15, 2013
6:21 AM
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#2 reed shape!
Anybody out there really interested in this. Try this:
If you have a harp that has a reed that isn't responding as well as the others on the harp.
All you have to do is this. Don't go straight to the bad reed. First look at a reed that works perfect! Look at the gap of both reeds in that hole and look at the shape of the reeds. Now take the tip of your index finger and push down in the middle of the reed. Notice how the reed goes throught the slot looking with magnifying glasses of 5 or 6X.
Then please post your results.
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isaacullah
2550 posts
Oct 16, 2013
9:55 AM
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More interesting data! Thanks guys! Keep the thoughts a comin'!
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Buzadero
1154 posts
Oct 16, 2013
10:50 AM
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"you're all talking about reed shaping. Profiling is a totally different thing and I'm quite sure none of you are doing it."
Whether consciously or subconsciously, we all engage in reed profiling. It's unavoidable. You're driving down the road and see a reed. You ask yourself, "what's that reed doing in this harp?". "Must be up to no good." "That kind of reed has no business in this harp".
To claim you don't profile is disingenuous.......
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~Buzadero
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orphan
303 posts
Oct 16, 2013
11:21 AM
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Good One Buzadero! A man after my own harp.
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harpwrench
702 posts
Oct 16, 2013
2:36 PM
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As far as I'm concerned the "profile" is how it looks from the side and includes both the milled profile and the "curve".
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Fix it till its broke.
Spiers Custom Harmonicas
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MP
2968 posts
Oct 16, 2013
4:32 PM
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I agree with Buzadero but i'm not a knee jerk liberal so i'll take it a step further. You can call me a lip purser or a u-blocker if you like- i've been called worse.
anywaay,
As far a profiling goes, how are you gonna catch the bad reeds if you don't profile all of them? Sure, most reeds are good, upstanding reeds and a credit to the harmonica but you gotta admit, there are a lot of bad reeds out there that ruin it for the rest of them: and it's not just the color of their brass either. i'm not picking on minorities but in my opinion stainless steel reeds really stick out. It's as if they enjoy being different and just want every ones attention.
Some reeds are just born crooked. Maybe they can't help it. Maybe it is just part of their alloy. All i know is that all reeds have a breaking point, so what do you expect if you are constantly bending them? you can only bend a reed so far.
Okay, i hope i'm not in violation of the forum rules but i just had to get that off my chest.
i really don't see profiling as a problem. i just hope the govmint doesn't get involved and try to take our harmonicas away from us. the right to own and bear harps is like in the constitution or something.
Last Edited by MP on Oct 16, 2013 4:53 PM
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HarveyHarp
533 posts
Oct 16, 2013
4:59 PM
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MP, you've been snorting pineapple again??
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HarveyHarp
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Frank
3022 posts
Oct 16, 2013
5:39 PM
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"As far as I'm concerned the "profile" is how it looks from the side and includes both the milled profile and the "curve".
Makes sense to me Joe...thanks for sharing :)
BTW...I opened up an old hohner and every reed profile was different, it has one of each of those profile types in Isaacs photos and it plays pretty darn good :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 16, 2013 5:44 PM
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