I'm a newbie to harmonica and I'm trying to learn blues Harp from Adam's videos and a few other resources (Winslow Yerxa's book for one). I'm not new to music however. I have played trumpet for over 30 years.
How important is it to perfect tongue blocking and how should it be used. Early in the Winslow Yerxa book he suggests learning single note playing through the examples in the book both with Lip Pursing and Tongue Blocking. I'm trying to do that but I wanted to get some opinions as to the importance of one over the other. It seems from some of the comments I have heard online, tongue blocking is essential for a blues player.
Any advice/suggestions for a newbie would be greatly appreciated!
Some players never use tongue blocking. I can't get as good bends tongue blocking, myself, but I use it a lot for other things. Split octaves can give you a lot of fullness in your playing, as well as tongue slaps and fast articulations, and some people argue tongue blocking even single notes gives you better tone (I'd argue it makes you put the harp deeper in your mouth, which gives you better tone- you can do that with puckering too, but it's easier to get lazy about it with the pucker.
Pucker players (myself included) will argue that you can get faster clean notes with a pucker.
Here is the thing- if you play one way or the other you get more comfortable with the one method and it's easy to get into a habit of not practicing the other, which makes your overall ability suffer. Practice both early and often. (Even give U-blocking a try.)
Also, sort of related, try different articulations when you are playing, tika tika, tooka tooka, dooda dooda, woo woo, they all will give you slightly different tones. Some will give you neat percussive tones and others will give you delays or brighter or warmer sound.
Even the standard advice of 'put the harmonica deep in your mouth' isn't a hard and fast rule. A shallow pucker can give you a very thin sweet tone, but it requires really even breath tone or is sounds weak.
I think the more you throw these things in early the more they become part of your playing. Early on, it doesn't take any extra effort to switch little things back and forth and see how they sound. Later on, it can be hard to change things up once you've built your muscle memory.
Jason Ricci has some nice TB videos and Lee Sankey has a really good series of about 20 or so videos all on Tongue Blocking and I found them useful. Most are 10-15 minutes long, though and he did them once a week I believe.So each lesson was to be practiced a week then move to the next video. Both techniques are good. You can mix them up as you wish or need. I compare tongue blocking, though, to a tennis player using a racket in each hand which makes it easier for him/her to reach either side of the court to hit the ball from either side faster. It TB also results in a richer tone. ---------- "Bend it like Ricci" - Me
Last Edited by Reed Triller on Jul 11, 2013 1:04 PM
Try a search on this forum and you'll find good support for both methods. When I started this journey Jon Gindick started me out lip pursing then introduced tongue blocking. David Barrett did the same thing. Something similar from Jerry Portnoy. It took a while but I noticed the trend.
Tongue blocking seemed crazy to me at first as just getting a clear single note was a challenge and I didn't want to deviate from that lip pursing success. Nonetheless I started to work a bit each day on tongue blocking and now much of the mystery has been removed.
Lee Sankey videos are excellent. I work on his exercises every day. But they are geared to those who can play a bit proficiently using lip pursing. For instance tongue blocked bends come into the picture fairly quickly so reasonable lip pursing bending technique is assumed. His octave videos were a good starting point for me.
Given all of the great blues players who do, or did use tongue blocking I think it's a great idea for those of us who are early in our harmonica careers to work on both techniques and use whatever seems most appropriate in a given situation. I suspect our playing style will sort it all out for us over time.
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Jul 11, 2013 1:46 PM
Comfortable with lip pursing, I am grateful to have also learned tongue blocking. It's an invaluable technique, and greatly increases the repertoire of texture you can create on the harmonica.
I use both techniques equally these days, I believe.
Tongue blocking is important and it can be used for everything you play (aside from certain "diddle-iddle" articulations).
While it's true that there are great players who prefer one or the other embouchure, most great players -- especially blues players -- tongue block a lot, and many of them tongue block 99% of the time.
Why not learn both?
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 11, 2013 2:40 PM
I'm not sure about the term "lip pursing." I was one of the lucky ones who was able to play clear single notes right out of the gate. I never gave much thought to how I did it until I joined this forum. I would call it more "lip blocking." I also have a background playing brass instruments. You will find it helpful. For instance, many harp players are dazzled by triple tonguing of 16th note triplets. More importantly, your general knowledge of music, time, rhythm, etc. is burned into your brain. You will also find yourself more marketable to bands as a multi-instrumentalist, if that's the direction you choose to take.
I only use lip blocking now for specific articulations, like very rapid staccato which requires a single note, no chord. And blow bending 10 hole on C harp and all blow bends on higher harps. I'm pretty keen to be able to do them all tongue blocked though. Used to Lip the whole time, but started tongue blocking to play waltz time with chords between melody notes. It was suggested as the way forward for me, by a local teacher at the end of his short 'adult ed' course. I just messed about playing oh susannah this way for a while. I watched norton buffalo demonstrate some tunes...yellow rose of Texas I think...and I tried some tongue on harp articulations. I found that on the upper half of the harp I could get clearer articulations with using my tongue on the harp. Eventually I accidentally used it on the low end, but I struggled going between embouchures when I needed a bend. One time I was slow to change and discovered it is possible to get a bend with tongue on harp. But I had no control, and no confidence that I could get control, because I knew it wasn't really possible, no one plays like that. But actually...a pro player told me not to do it, no one tongue blocks below hole 4, and they cited jerry portnoy as their authority. Dave Barrett told me it was not only possible, but desirable, and taught me to control the bends. Within a couple weeks I was a dedicated tongue block player. Now it's just like natural. I find it really weird thinking about lip blocking, it seems so comparatively difficult, like playing guitar without using your fingers or something...sometimes my tongue just seems to know what to do, if I think about what it's doing, I can't do it straightaway..like speaking, you just do it. Nate's right though, both techniques have a place and need practicing, but I expect most players have a 'default' approach and switch to the other for particular things.me, I love tongue blocking and I can't imagine I'd ever want to change. ----------
Learning harp can be a slow and frustrating process. You might find that you can get started lip pursing more easily and that will keep your interest. Definitely try to learn tongue blocking as soon as you can, it opens up so many more possibilities. Many players use a mix of both embochures. ---------- Lucky Lester
I asked Dave Barrett what he thought of this, and Dave asked Jerry on my behalf. Jerry said that he used to tongue block everything but after awhile he found that tongue blocking below hole 3 caused him to develop an 'asymmetrical embouchure' and he now recommends switching embouchures at hole 3. David however recommends full time tongue blocking, and advised me not to worry about it until it happened. ----------
Winslow Yerxa says, "It's like going from playing piano with one finger to playing with two hands." http://archive.harmonicasessions.com/apr05/chromatic.html
Once you learn how to create a groove w/TB'ing, (vamping on the low end rhythmically), using the tongue on and off to create the back beat (pulling it off while articulating "cha" or "ta"), you'd be surprised at what explodes out of this. ---------- The Iceman
Thanks for all of the great replies. I will make TB a regular part of my practice routine. I did see the collection of videos by Lee Sankey, and will check them out. I'll also take a look at the suggested videos posted In this thread.
The lip pursing actually came very easy to me, but maybe that had something to do with my brass playing. I'll make sure to practice both embochures.
I'm a switcher - but I WISH I could play in TB all the time and I'll tell you why. It has to do with getting a really good cup - whether playing acoustically or amplified. Getting a good cup means sealing off the unplayed holes on the front of the harp. For me that is MUCH easier to do with TB because I have the entire left side of the front of the harp in my mouth. When I switch to lip purse then I may have holes open on both the left and right sides - and I can only block the holes on the right with my thumb and cheek. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Tongue blocking is a foundational technique for blues harmonica players. Investigate it! Learn how to do it!
Just don't make the mistake of assuming that if you fail to become a full-time tongue blocker, you've missed the boat and will be doomed to a sub-optimal sound. You won't.
Dennis Gruenling and I disagree wholly on this point. He insists in his recent interview in EASY REEDING, as he has insisted here and elsewhere, that full-time TB always offers the best possible sound. (He notes that he TB's only 99% of the time.) I think--and have said in various venues--that it all depends. Todd Parrott is one of the most soulful players I know, playing his particular type of gospel-tinged country-grooved blues. Todd does most of that stuff lip pursed.
Dennis stands at one extreme, and I guess that Joe Filisko stands with him--although Joe, who creates custom harps for Howard Levy (who is NOT full-time TB), seems willing to grant more latitude. Even a guy like Kim Wilson mixes TB and LP.
I continue to hold down what I think of as the broad middle. I encourage all developing players to explore a range of techniques, gain a working sense of their strengths and weaknesses, and, above all, continue to find pleasure in whatever they're doing. Improvise! Make up new techniques! That's what Django did. Find new ways of expressing yourself on the instrument. When you hear a player doing something you like, try to copy it, and ask lots of questions of your elders and peers about what the player was doing to make that sound. If you follow that path, rather than hewing to one particular school of Proper Technique, you'll come closer to making the best music that you've got in you.
I love Dennis's playing, of course. But I disagree with this one specific and central element of his teaching philosophy.
One thing not mentioned is that TB is great for tuning harps. i tend to get a much more even stream of air and i absolutely need it for matching up split octaves on the blow plate.
of course it is the funkiest technique for playing blues ever. That's why the old cats did it. not cuz of some piece of paper in the harp case. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info- repair videos on YouTube. you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jul 11, 2013 7:50 PM
...and let's not forget, TB offers slaps, pulls, flutters, and a world of harmonica bliss. Having recently begun learning TB after doing pretty well with lip pursing, I frankly no longer understand the debate between the two embouchures. Charlie says in his book that both are necessary for full mastery of the instrument. Needless to say, he's right.
I go along with adam,and others who say keep up with your practice,even if tb is frustrating you.I fall into this category,and even at some times come up with my own sounds,on whatever sloppiness or junk playing I slide into.
Tom Ball is a dynamite harp player try his big/little walter lick book.He states their are ways to use the fake tongue block by alternating quickly back and forth between a single note and a three note chord.Try playing a 2-draw pucker style with a doo or too consonant attack,put more harp in your mouth and draw holes 12and3 with a cha consonant attack.
The tongue slap can also be faked by sliding quickly from a 3 note chord to the one top note and then increasing pressure.Tongue split octaves no other way.
I agree with exploring both. I am mostly a lip blocker (lip purser just doesn't fit). I play a LOT of splits TBed, both draw and blow, in several positions, but do no side TBing. I love to listen to all styles! I will dispute two things here. Rhythmic style licks, though a little different than tongue slapping, are quite possible and sound great with lip blocking. The biggie is tone. I don't care how high someone ranks in the harp world, I know that super fat big tone is possible and just as good either way. When I lip block my harp is just as deep and my open mouth/throat resonator is just as big as a TBer.
Lots of very good advice here. The worst thing that happened to me was reading a post many years ago advising me against TB bending. Set me back a couple of years. TB is my default now, but I switch a bunch, especially for blow bends and the OB's I rarely play. I'm trying to improve my wavery, blow bends the way Jason, Stevie Wonder and Michalek do/did. That's a great LP technique. The tone justifies the means. . . ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
One has only to hear him play live to fully understand how both techniques give that old school sound while straddling the Modern style as well. ---------- The Iceman
@Bob Don't worry about that, just get plenty of harps in minor, major keys and enjoy Concentrate on rhythm playing, learn to play 'behind' at first. Grow big ears, listen to all, be inspired (that's the 2nd time I've said that) Kudzu is right
It depends on your goals and what sound you are after. I didn't learn to TB until I had been playing a couple of years. I LP as my main approach and TB when I want a specific effect like octaves or tongue slaps.
I guess I approach it a lot like Gussow and Ricci in that regard, although they are clearly much better at it. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
One additional point: although it is certainly possible to overblow while TB, I never do so and in fact I really CAN'T do so. I suspect that the majority of players who overblow are not TB when they do so--even if they TB in other contexts.
I believe that those players who advocate full time TB tend to overlap with those players who don't see any compelling reason to overblow.
Am I right about that? Not to hijack the thread, but I'd like to hear from the overblowers here. If overblows (and overdraws) are a significant element of your approach, do you TB when you do them, or use some other technique?
My guess is that fewer than 5% of overblowers are full-time TBers, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
I don't use overblows much in my playing, but I do practice them just in case I feel the need to use them at any point. I always play them tongue blocked. I use tongue blocking on everything except blow bends and sometimes the 1 hole, which I play lip pursed mostly. I'd say to any player starting out, learn every technique you can and work them all into your playing. It'll make you a far better player in the long run.
My personal arc of diatonic development is unusual.
For my first 30 years, I was strictly a single note player..However, I was never a "blues guy", but a musician that could play blues, having been seduced by loving a melodic line and approaching songs from a different perspective. Of course, OB's and bending to exact pitch became a part of my arsenal as well as the pursuit of seamless sounding ones, due to technique and also their placement within an idea...all w/single note technique.
Filisko hipped me to cupping techniques and I struggled learning this for quite a while, still w/out TB.
Dunno what happened to me, but about a year ago I found myself seduced by TB - the tone as well as the rhythmic potential towards my latest teaching incarnation "Playing Off Of The Groove".
While I can TB and bend all notes available to traditional bending technique to pitch, I can't TB and blow bend nor OB, so I am constantly switching techniques, which is pretty easy after a bit of practice. ---------- The Iceman
I started out TB, then learned the pucker method, mainly for the high end bends, but I use both methods, oftentimes switching in mid phrase and I know for a fact that Kim Wilson also does this as well.
Each method had both advantages and disadvantages and some things can only be done one way rather than both. For example, the open 4 bars of BW's solo on the Jimmy Rogers classic Walking By Myself can only be done TB, and the opening 4 bars of Junior Well's solo on the Vanguard recording of Messin' With The Kid can only be done with the pucker.
I rarely eve overblow, but I have done it both ways as well.
Is there a tonal difference between both?? Depends largely on the player and how well they're able to manipulate their embouchure as well as the inside shape of their mouth and because many players who are teaching themselves how to play, they tend to force everything, which leads to playing physically uptight, and it makes it close to impossible to do anything well AKA shooting themselves in the foot.
There is a third method which I myself haven't mastered and that's the U-block and the best known master of that technique is the late Norton Buffalo, but I myself don't know of anyone as of this moment who OB's using this method.
Best thing to do is to learn both because both do come in handy.
On TB'ing, nearly every classical chromatic teacher recommends this method, especially for playing extremely fast phrases and what they tell players is to move the harp in a VERY small arc, rather than moving your head because had movements can slow you down. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
TB fascinates me. I have only recently started to do splits and octaves. I have tried draw bends and they are relatively weak at present but there is at least something to work with. As far as OB's are concerned I'm not even close to getting them TB, It's mainly saliva and air:)
I think that like Iceman I will probably switch the styles as an when I want to.
As a point of interest when I overblow LP style I am aware of tongue movement. The tip of my tongue rest lightly at the base and back of my lower front teeth and my tongue arches toward the roof of my mouth. To raise the pitch of the OB, the tip of my tongue moves towards the top of my lower teeth. As a test on the importance of my toungue movement here, if I plant the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth I can't OB.
I'd be very interested to learn how TB players acheive the Overblow and OB pitch change with their toungue resting on the front of the harmonica - what goes on from there? Kingley? anyone?? ----------
Grey Owl -I'm not really any good at explaining things like this, but here's the way I do overblows tongue blocked. I simply kind of arch up the middle of my tongue and direct the airflow over the top of it. I learnt to do it by using the bend hole 6 method. Keep that shape and then blow instead of draw. The overblow pops out pretty easily. I can't sustain them for long and I certainly can't alter their pitch the way the good overblow players can do.
If you want to get the cool percussive back-beat sound on harmonica ya gotta tongue block. Ain't no way around that. The question really is not whether or not to TB, but how much. I don't think I know any harp players who never touch their tongues to the harp for splits, flutters, slaps, pull-offs, etc.
Thanks Kingley, that's pretty much what I do LP. I can't seem to get a seal and focused air pressure over the arched tongue while TB. What part of the tongue do you lay on the harp whilst OB and do you block holes 7&8 when OB on 6. ----------
The way you describe achieving OB corresponds with my conclusions.
Only difference is that when I raise the pitch of the OB, I don't move the tip of the tongue, but rather move that arch in the tongue forward. ---------- The Iceman
I mostly use the centre right side tip of my tongue lightly pressed against the harp and flattened. So it's kind of like the top of my tongue on the centre right hand side tip, if that makes any sense. I block holes 3,4 & 5 when playing 6 OB and play out of the right side of my mouth. I don't know if that helps you any.
Iceman, Yes just checked and that also works ok with arching the toungue forward. These subtle movements are difficult to describe/detect and I am probably doing a bit of this as well anyway but homed in on what the tip of my toungue was doing in the process.
Thanks Kingley, I'll work on that tongue position. Seems I'm left tongued:) but I guess your technique will work that way around but blocking 7,8 & 9 instead. ----------
Where is the flame war? What is happening with this forum??
I am a developing player, now with 6 years of about an hour a day playing under my belt. I started off lip blocking, for about the first three years or so, and learned how to do all the bends and some overblows (4,5,6) that way. Then I wanted to learn TB to get a fuller sound. I found that if my default embouchure was lip-block, that I just didn't do as many splits and octaves as I would like.
So, not giging yet, I decided to try TB full time and learn to do all the techniques that way too. It felt like a big step backward. It was awkward, especially tongue-switching for the 1 hole. I had to re-learn how to do all bends. But after about a year or so, I was back to where I had been, except for blow bends and overblows.
I started with my G harp and a low F, and was able to get the blow bends eventually. Then I started trying on higher harps. I use cheap (Big River) harps and gap them so they are playable. So far I can only TB blow bend the 10 up to a C harp. Maybe if I had better harps, optimized by a customizer, I could go higher. What I can't do TB, I can do lip-blocked.
Last thing was to try overblows. I also had heard it is "impossible" initially, then former forum frequenter Michael Andrew Lo (MAL) embarked on a full-time TB stint that included overblows. So I knew it was possible. Again with low harps (G, low F) I hacked away at it until I could get the 6 OB. At first it sounded bad, but I kept working it into my practice until it sounded usable, then I started using it in my playing. I've now been TB overblowing the 6 for about two years. I recently gapped all my harps again to try to get 4,5,6 overblows. But I can only do it for harps up to C at present. I can sustain the TB overblows I can do, but can't bend them (yet). Same story as for blow bends. I need better harps.
As for switching back and forth between embouchures, I am not a religious TBer, but I rarely find a reason to do so, just if I'm using higher key harps. I just like TB, and when I do it full-time, I do a lot more of the slaps, pulls, splits and octaves, etc. that give me the full sound I like.
In response to Adam..I can barely sound an overblow with TB and it is not usable. I don't know anyone that overdraws TBed. Lip blocking works great for me on both overblows and overdraws. The tone is good, bending is no problem, nor is vibrato. Though not a popular technique on this forum, I play and bend my overbends with the throat, not the tongue. Hitting the 7 overdraw already bent up to the major 5th and releasing in the flat 5th in 2nd position gives you the exact same effects you can do on playing 4 draw and bending it down. Only an octave higher. Can't imagine doing it TBed. I don't believe TB overblows are big wailing notes either. Not like lip blocked. I welcome to be proven wrong. Rick Davis.. I agree that TB percussive is probably more dynamic, but rhythmic lip blocking is a useful technique that stands along on it's own merits. I don't claim to be a great player, but the intro below is played without the tongue touching the harp at all. I learned this technique from Adam. You will hear me switch to playing TB splits during my second break. The exchanges later with the guitar are all lip blocked. You do hear a standard 2/5 draw split at the end.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Jul 12, 2013 11:07 AM
@harpdude61 You are an excellent player, and probably in an elite class of overbenders; don't sell yourself short. Like your ventures into throat bending (which I also do, but TB), I think that the limits of tongue-blocking and overbending are largely unexplored. I don't have the tools (harps) to go very far with it yet, but eventually I will. I hope you don't have to wait for me to be the sole pioneer though. ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Jul 13, 2013 10:45 AM
Rick Davis...Yes, can hear the difference in the two styles. The lip block method has more of a slur effect while the TB method has a cleaner more percussive sound for sure. I really need to push myself to go back to basics and learn that style. This proves that you cannot say one is better than the other. Two different sounds and styles. A complete player could learn both these useful techniques.
mr.so&so Be a pioneer my friend! I want to hear it. To be honest you should be fine with a decent stock harp that you gap yourself. My experience is that you have such a large mass of air at your control throat bending, that the gaps do not have to be as tight to get good overblows/overdraws. Not sure that has ever been mentioned on the forum. My gaps are big enough that reeds getting stuck is never an issue. At :08 into this brief cut I play a sustained 6 overblow. I am lip blocking and OBing from the throat. Just not sure you can play an overblow fat and controlled TBing, but I am probably wrong. This is a couple years ago and I had just received my bulletized Ultimate 57 and had not practiced my cupping technique. Much better today.
One more thing Mr. So and So. You mentioned you could get 4,5,6 OB up to a C harmonica. You should be able to go higher and like Adam, I am curious where TB overbenders have taken it. With the lip blocked throat technique I can get the 1,4,5,6 overblow plus the 7,9,10 overdraw on my low F harmonica and the same notes on my high G harp. Granted I doubt a 10od on a high G would ever be used. My point and theory is that the lip blocking/throat bending technique provides a large mass/volume of air which is required for control. I know a TBer has this as well. The only difference I can theory is that the air mass is more centered maybe? Also, my jaw stays totally dropped to keep the resonator big. Even with blow bends I do not hinge the mouth shut. Curious? Do TBers usually keep the jaw dropped all of the time? Between this and listening to some great artists TB playing I wanna hit the wood shed!
Dennis overblows AND overdraws tongue blocked- I think Joe Filisko sums it up best-
"Most likely, what we'll see is that players from the various “approaches” will continue to borrow from each other's styles. You can expect to hear more and more tongue-blockers such as Dennis Gruenling take advantage of non-traditional positions, like he did with his 12th position instrumental “12 O’Clock Jump,” and overblows like he used in his tune “Take a Step,” (which are both from his Jump Time CD). And then, you will of course hear more and more melodic players using traditional tongue-blocking, like Howard used in the Trio Globo tune “Street Corner” and Carlos del Junco used in his tune “Heaven's Where You'll Dwell” from his Big Boy CD.
Please keep in mind that all the “fancy” tongue-blocking and overblowing in the world won't assure you that you will be making great music, or ANY music at all for that matter. A truly great musician can create truly great music with just ONE note . "
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jul 13, 2013 9:15 AM
"Please keep in mind that all the “fancy” tongue-blocking and overblowing in the world won't assure you that you will be making great music, or ANY music at all for that matter. A truly great musician can create truly great music with just ONE note." True, but not what this thread is about.It is about what you can get with each technique, not about musicality. That said... Dennis is truly one of the all time greats. His phrasing and dynamics should be studied by any player at any level. I heard the overblows but did not catch any overdraws. The overblows where good, but I can still tell they are overblows because I hear a slight tonality change and maybe a wee wee hair flat. With the top pursing overblowers I don't hear the slight difference I do here. Mooncat said years ago that he tried to play his OBs with hopes people could not hear it was an OB. I think Adam is correct. A very small percent of overblowers are full time or mostly TBers. Until someone shows me some examples of a TBer wailing away on some sustained pitch overblows and overdraws, I will stand by my belief that a lip blocker/purser gets a better quality overblow and overdraw in general. I hope someone does. I would love to know this is possible so I will have another reason to hit the TBing woodshed!
OK, I know this is a blues harp forum. But if you ever want to stray from the blues idiom on the harmonica, you don't have to wander very far into say old-timey or bluegrass or Cajun or... to realize that tongue-blocking can put those other 9 "fingers" to excellent use and effect in many forms of roots music. I present, as exhibit A, one of my personal harmonica heroes, Paul Davies, making it look "easy." Thanks, Michelle
---------- SilverWingLeather.com email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Jul 13, 2013 12:03 PM
I'm enjoying this, but can't find what you are talking about. The 6 ob is not a wailing note in 3rd position blues. It is the flat 6th of the scale. I do use it sometimes as a passing note in minor 3rd position blues. I'll need a sample of that one for sure.
