when carefully moving the socket across the reed slot how can one possibly avoid crushing the reed--since the socket is in full contact with the reed at all times?
Are you comfortable with adjusting the reed shape and gap to your liking? Until you can do that, embossing is pretty much irrelevant. And even so, embossing is far down the list when it comes to making a harp play well - but that's not your question.
If I were to use a socket to emboss, I would use a bigger one, like 10mm. But I would use a UST or make myself something like it instead of a socket. Again, embossing the far end of the slot is less relevant than doing full-slot embossing.
I really hope this helps. ----------
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2012 8:22 PM
Embossing like this will push the reed back into the slot. You shouldn't attempt to emboss the entire length of the slot like this – just the top 2/3rds – or you will damage the reed.
As arzajac mentions, you will need to reset the curve and angle of the reed relative to the reed plate once you have embossed the slot.
I just located a webpage demonstrating the UST. It seems to be the best way to go--minimizing the contact with--and, therefore, risk of damaging--the reed during a full slot embossing.
And, not to contradict a pro, but the consensus seems to argue against the comment, "embossing is far down the list when it comes to making a harp play well." Quite the contrary: embossing, it is asserted elsewhere, is at the top of the list of "things to do" in tweaking the instrument. But, that is a point asserted by others with empirical evidence and data to back them up.
I'm not sure which sources you are referring to about the "embossing at the top of the list" (maybe overblow.com?). My list is like this. 1, playing technique, 2, playing technique, 3, playing technique, 4, gapping, 5, playing technique, 6, gapping.
Re-read all advice you have been given here and then do as you wanna'. Maybe buy a cheapo harp to practise on first, too... ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Full mength slot embossing can be accomplished without affecting the reed profile in two ways:
The easy way: use the UST, or a $2.00 router blade, to drag against the edge of the slot along its length, doing each slot edge individually. The end of the tool touches the edge of the reed, using it as a guide as the blade (pointing downward) drags against the slot edge.
The harder way: Use a reed wrench to swing the reed away from the slot, pivoting it on the rivet (obviously wont work for welded Suzuki reeds), and then embossing the slot along its entire length using your tool and method of choice. When done, swing the reed back into place and center. ---------- Winslow
Rereading my post above I see that I, indeed, am a sourpuss. I bet you'll do fine with your tweaking, Dean. The tweaking along with practise will have overblowing in no time. You seem like a real driven guy and that'll get you far! We all have some harps we messed up though so think about getting a real crap cheapy for practising setting up. And try the forum search along with harp wrench's videos. There are a lot of tweaking topics discussed there. ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Winslow, arzajac, Pistol, Baker: you guys are terrific!... sharing your valuable time and expertise to aid a stranger...
My Suzuki Pure Harp (a Firebreath with rosewood covers) does not overblow (sales hype to the contrary). I have examined the reed slots under magnification and strong light: there is a lot of air being lost owing to the larger-than-necessary gap around the perimeter of the reed. There is no chance for my breath stream to choke the reed--under those circumstances.
I actually picked up some soda straws--to try Chris M's trick: it works! The air stream was focused enough so that I did, in fact, get overblows!
Next step: I corresponded with Dick Sjoeberg regarding the UST. I will try the router blade first--(which router blade profile, Winslow?).
It would seem that the highest magnification I can utilize while embossing would give me a fighting chance of succeeding. Possibly a microscope...
Full slot embossing would seem to be the only way to go with this...then setting the reed 'action' with the .002" shim, i.e., .002" at the rivet, tapering up at the tip. The gap around the reed--I am informed--is established with the aid of a .001" shim.
Once I have the reedplates set, I am reasonably certain that there will be a better chance for the particular reed to choke. There just isn't that much more going on 'under the hood', so to speak...
Then, of course, I can return my full attention to technique--with the happy cooperation of the harp...
@ Dean I would agree with everything you said there. sounds like you have a good plan of attack. I would like to point out that not all harps need to be full slot embossed to be able to OB with great effiency. To answer your original question. Try useing 10, 11 or 12 mm socket. The biggest socket you can use the better. It is possible to get pretty close with a 12mmm. Some harps respond very well to this method, while others need to be full slot. I don't work on Susuki's so I don't know how to.
Actually, there is also something else you need to look for in terms of air escaping: many times, the base of the reed isn't down where it needs to be. This is usually a result of the improper gapping job they do at the factory (I don't blame them, but the factory gapping of harps from any company basically sucks all the time! :) ). Chris M. showed this to me, and told me how to correct it. The first thing you should do before embossing or gapping, is to push down on the base of the reed, right at the base of the reedslot. look at it from the side, and get it so that it is exactly flush with the top of the reedplate. You will likely then need to re-set the profile of the reed and gap it (which, to me, are the same procedure). You want the reed to come up in a fairly straight line from the base to the tip. NO CURVES. You need to do this gently, and it takes considerable experience to get it down (watch those Joe Spiers vids over and over again!). At this point 90% of response problems will be solved (especially if you've also sanded your comb, and the top of the draw reedplate super flat). Embossing will get you the final 10% of the way there.
IMO, after several years of working on my own harps, and having learned from Chris M directly, overblows are mainly facilitated by way you set the blow and draw gaps, and the general airtightness of a harp. Embossing DOES help, but I'm of the opinion that it doesn't help as much as most people think it does. Personally, I don't find it to be worth the (not inconsiderable) effort it takes to emboss a whole harp. I only emboss these days when my normal solutions (sanding, gapping, profiling) don't seem to get me where I want to go. And that is VERY rare.
Good luck with your customizing efforts! It's a fun road of discovery, and I'm sure you will have MANY questions as you proceed! Hit us up here when you have them, and we are happy to help! ----------
"The harder way: Use a reed wrench to swing the reed away from the slot, pivoting it on the rivet"
i do it the harder way. i can do the entire slot w/ a socket quickly and evenly.
i do not recommend this method.
it is just what i am comfortable doing. after a few years one develops speed, accuracy, and most importantly, 'the touch' with any method or tool. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
The reedplates in my harp hold the comb with only two screws. I suspect that this is also a culprit in the air loss issue...I will try adding two more (the plates are drilled for them, I just need to drill the comb...).
Also, how do you approach the sanding issue--to get the plates and comb "super flat"? Is using a wooden block accurate enough? What grit paper? Emory cloth? Any videos on this sanding protocol?
@Dean: If your comb is actually flat, then two screws are all you need. I never put more than two screws through the reedplates of harps I've converted. Two reedplate screws along the back edge, and two coverplate screws a bit forward from center and you are all good.
flat sanding is a big pain to get right, but it makes a world of difference. To do it right you need a really flat surface like a pane of glass, a mirror, or a stone tile. Then you adhere the sand paper to that surface (I use 3M "light tack" spray adhesive, but you could use painters tape along the edges). Then, the trick is to hold the sanding surface fairly level, and then with SUPER LIGHT pressure, you move the comb (or reedplate) in an elliptical pattern. Try NOT to move it "back and forth", as you will risk putting a patterned series of microsopic parallel grooves, which could leak air. Anyway, once you've got it most of the way there, then take your hand off the comb, and just tilt the sanding surface, letting the comb slide on it's own. That gives it a really fine finish. I use 600-grit "wet/dry" sand paper for these steps. I sometimes finish by very very lightly buffing with an 800-grit sanding sponge, but I'm not convinced it's necessary. Chris used to put a super thin layer of burt's bees mint chap stick on the combs at this point, but I don't do that any more because it can get messy.
Then, when reassembling the harp, use only enough torque on the screws for them to not be loose. If you over tighten them, then you will cause pressure-divits to occur around the screws, and no amount of flat sanding can save you from that. I learned that tidbit from Dave Payne, and it really does make a difference!
We do things differently but I think we mostly agree on the big ideas here and accomplish the same goal.
About the Chapstick, do you just rub it on or do you polish it in? I can't see how it can get messy if it's polished in. I never tried it until this evening and I'm interested in how a comb treated like that holds up compared to how I usually do it - by polishing in water-based varnish as I show in the video. And do you apply chapstick to the insides of the tines? I basically snipped the round mound of cotton off a Q-Tip and rolled the remaining cotton on the stick in the Chapstick and applied it to the inside of the tines with that (too much cotton otherwise and it wouldn't fit). I "polished" it in as best as I could that way.
Also, torque. I have had issues with three harps in the last week (one wasn't even mine!) where one or two reedplate screws came loose spontaneously. They were just sitting there, hanging out... half-in, half-out.
Has this ever happened to you? I use stainless steel screws and enough torque so that they "bite". I'm thinking I could try different screws. Or maybe put a dab of bluetak on the underside of the heads of the reedplate screws. What do you think?
You can lightly apply it with your finger. @ Issah I thought I was the first one to think of that. You have to put it on very lightly. If you making a mess your putting way to much on.
The sanding protocol is for brand spanking new harps (like my Suzuki Pure Harp) as well--true? Do we then sand the reedplates too--or is that done for older harps?
The bee's wax is for wooden combs only--or plastic, etc., combs as well? Is it used solely to forestall warping from moisture--or, does it aid in improving the plate/comb seal? In between the tines, too, Isaac? Is this preferable to the water-based varnish?
Dean I only put it om unsealed wood. Like a stock Marine Band comb or a comb that has a finish but after the top and bottom are sanded it is unsealed. So I put (as I said) a light film on both sides. It does two things. It acts like a gasket for a better seal and the oils in the chapstick will get absorbed into the comb leaving just a waxy film. It works great for the people that like stock Marine Bands.
@arzajack (and chromaticblues): I polished it into the surface of the comb where it mates with reed plate. I even used to buff it in with a low power rotary tool and a buffing tip. There's no issue of "messyness" on the comb-reedplate mating surface; the issue occurs in between the tines. During polishing, quite a bit of the excess lip balm builds up on the edges of the tines, inside the channels. I used the q-tip trick to clean them out, but you have to be REALLY careful, as it's ridiculously easy to snap a tine off if you apply just a bit too much pressure. But really, the reason I stopped was because if you don't clean out ALL the excess buildup from in between the tines, it will actually act to TRAP moisture against the reedplate, which leads to corrosion of the reedplate in those areas. It's not impossible to remove all the excess from in between the tines, so you absolutely can make it work, but I stopped using the lip balm after discovering how well soaking the comb for a week in pure mineral oil works. I find this does as good of a job of sealing a wood comb as does anything else, but has the advantage of being way less messy than most every other method, and doesn't have a chance of leaving behind a buildup that can trap moisture.
@Dean: No factory wooden comb will be flat enough. They all have mill marks that need to be removed. Unless you buy an aftermarket comb from a reputable comb maker (there are several who frequent this forum), then you WILL have to sand the comb if you want an airtight instrument. And the same goes for the reedplates. Just the back of the draw reedplate is enough (although some of the top customizers will remove the reeds from the blow reedplate and sand that surface as well, it's not worth the work for a non-pro). Plastic combs don't benefit from wax or lip balm. It will just cause corrosion by trapping moisture. In the past, people used to make "gaskets" for their plastic combed harps using micro-pore tape, but, having been down that road, I can tell you that it does nothing but gunk up your harp. The current trick is to put a little but of plastic lanyard in the slots of the comb tines in injection-molded plastic combs (like a Special 20). This lanyard acts as a bit of a compression-fit gasket. I've tried it, and notices a small difference, but I think plastic combed harps are pretty airtight as is. As long as you don't over tighten the screws!
@arzajack: About screws. The trick is to get the torque tight enough to stick, but not so tight it distorts the reedplates. In this endeavour, the larger the head of the screw the better. If you can find 2-56 pan-head screws, those are the best. I have only used stainless steel screws thus far, and haven't noticed them coming loose. I suppose you could use locktite or a little superglue on them if you were worried. When I run out of my current stash of stainless steel screws, I am going to buy these brass ones. I think they will be the best. ----------
@Dean: I re-read your OP, and noticed this: "then setting the reed 'action' with the .002" shim, i.e., .002" at the rivet, tapering up at the tip." When gapping, you actually want there to be NO gap at the rivet, and then for the whole reed to taper up LINEARLY to the tip (no curvature). The size of the gap at the tip depends on your playing style and your needs. A good rule of thumb to start with is to set the gap equal to the thickness of the reed at it's tip. You may eventually want them a little higher or a little lower for your playing style, but that's a good place to start if you don't already know what you like/need. ----------
'still been working today on some of the ideas expressed here...
Insofar as the lipbalm: What would you say is the function of the chapstick? 1- To create a water-barrier to resist comb swelling/deforming 2- To preserve the comb and combat mould or breakdown 3- To help the air-seal
I would think 1 and 2 more so than 3. Since it's polished in, there is none available for a seal - anyway the comb is already flat.... And those are the two reasons I seal wood combs with water-based varnish.
Insofar as sanding: Isaac, I sand side to side. I am very picky about flatness and I cannot tell the difference between sanding with 320 grit and anything more fine. I am a lot better at it and take off a lot less wood than when I first started. I can't say going in an elliptical pattern gives me better results. I reckon it's technique since I find it harder to make a straight (hence flat) surface when going around in circles. Anyway, whether I sand up-to-down or side-to-side, I am not creating channels in the wood at this grit. The surface of the wood is smooth like a mirror when I am done either way.
Insofar as SP20 combs: I recently worked on two SP20s and actually spent a great deal of time on them experimenting. I tried cutting small pieces of foam (kids' foam craft paper - mildew resistant) and shoving them into the grooves. I had previously tried blue-tak in those grooves and had some success. I screw in the plates and then obstruct both the blow and draw reeds of one hole with my finger and puff air throught the hole with my cheeks. I do this to get an idea of the airleak. I benchmark before and after to see what makes the comb more airtight. I found than by not putting anything in there but just a quick (ouch!) rubbing with a small square of 400 grit sandpaper over the surfaces of the comb that comes into contact with the reedplates gave the best result. I am aware that if I sand unevenly I will make matters worse. But I have been gently sanding just enough to make the black plastic turn grey. I basically use good lighting and go over the surface so that everything is the same color. A quick rinse and the surface of the grooves are remarkably softer/smoother than before. I was surprised that it worked, actually. I was impressed by the tone. I adjusted the reeds for overbends and I use both those harps daily - they overbend from holes 1 to 10 with no squeals. I did the same with a few GMs - same result. Not as good as a wood comb, but definitely an upgrade from out-of-the-box. Speaking of SP20s, recently Richard Sleigh posted a few harps for sale that were done by one of his students. All stock parts SP20s. The covers were vented on the top end - he said it gave the SP 20 more treble. I tired it out (Just the top end) and sure enough it does have a more toothy sound than a SP20 with unvented covers.
I played out at a jam last weekend and couldn't hear myself through the PA, but when I opened up my tone cup on the right side I could (just barely) hear myself acoustically - something I could not do before with unvented covers.
@arzajack: I just checked the grit on my sandpaper, and it's 300 grit I use, not 600! :) It's the sanding sponge that is 600 (and not 800 like I said). Just goes to show that I should always check first before writing about such details (from memory)! And for what it's worth, I do start the process by going more or less "back and forth", but when I get down to it, I make sure to do it as randomly as possible (that's really what I meant by "elliptical"). This was all from the advice/knowledge of Chris M., and while perhaps it doesn't make a real difference (microscopic grooves, etc.), it can't hurt, and it's not harder for me to do, so I do it! :) ----------
@Dean I wouldn't Rosewood or any hardwood. Your wasting your time! If doesn't absorb moisure well there isn't any reason to do so! Lightly applying it with your finger will provide an airtight seal and as I said the oils will leach into wood. As Isaac said the mineral oil does work good with Marine Band combs (soft wood). It is not the same as sealing a comb however. When a comb is sealed the heat from your breath won't have any effect on the comb. A mineral oil soaked comb will not sweel, but the tines will splay (become warped). Once the harp dries they go back to where they were, but if you play a harp for a while and flub a note then look at the harp. most of the holes are different sizes! On my harps the 6 hole gets very wide and the 7 becomes 3/4 it's original size? I have a box of these I know! Honestly I think I'm going to stop fighting the Marin Band battle and go back to SP20's. Lately every time I make a SP 20 for a customer. That harp is better than the Marine Band in my case!
Chromaticblues: Ah! that pretty much answers my question about the Chapstick. If the mineral oil solution is superior to chapstick, then I get the idea. Thanks!
When I polish water-based varnish into a sanded comb, it doesn't budge. If it warps, it does so on the first coat and I let it fall back into place. I do the insides of the tines first and when that is dry and back into place, I flat-sand the top and bottom surfaces. Then I polish the varnish on. It's perfectly straight and stays perfect no matter how wet you play it.
And a comb I work on myself is as flat if not flatter than one that is produced by one of the aftermarket comb people - acrylic/wood/corian. In fact, I have bought unfinished (unsanded, unsealed) wood combs from them for that reason.
Have you ever tried varnish on a MB comb? I can do the exact same reedwork on a SP20 and a MB, but the MB will end up being a significantly better harp every time. The stock SP20 comb has it's limitations. As I said, it's airtight enough that I can get all the overbends (overdraws too) to play on a SP20 without squealing, but I can't get a SP20 "to the next level" where an airtight MB can go.
It takes me a lot longer to do, but you get what you pay for, I think....
1) "Honestly I think I'm going to stop fighting the Marin Band battle and go back to SP20's. Lately every time I make a SP 20 for a customer. That harp is better than the Marine Band in my case!"
2) "I can do the exact same reedwork on a SP20 and a MB, but the MB will end up being a significantly better harp every time. The stock SP20 comb has it's limitations...I can't get a SP20 'to the next level' where an airtight MB can go."
"As Isaac said the mineral oil does work good with Marine Band combs (soft wood)." Please take a moment to point out where he actually said or implied that...
What is that old saw about "one man's ceiling..."?
On the subject of screws, Dave Payne has a good video, I don't have the link handy, explaining how to tighten the screws without over-tightening. You can warp things if you over-tighten.
@ Dean I didn't mean Isaah said it about Marine Bands. I'm telling you that's the case! I mention Isaah because he brought it up. Mineral oil works great on any soft wood comb. If your just trying to make your Marine Band or Blues harp stop sweeling. Then that is something you can try. @ Arzajac No I can't say I have that problem with SP20's. I will say you can't compare your SP20 experiences in the past. If your not working on brand new SP 20's, you owe it to yourself to buy a couple. I can make most SP 20's work great in an hour and a half. The last 4 or 5 just came out great! With no more than 2 hours on any of them! Some of them had Hetrick combs also. It is a reflection on how good harmonica are today and the after market secter for harmonicas is just amazing today. Arzajac I agree with what you said about Marine Bands always being better than SP 20's in the past! That's why I play Marine Bands. I think Hohner must have done some work on their manufacturing equipment (different vendors, new equipment, rebuilt equipment)? Something has changed because is significant different in quality!
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 4:01 PM
All of the SP20s and the MBs I mentioned have been brand new... In general, I can't restore a vintage harmonica to the point of overbending holes 1 through 10 and make the overdraws playable. I can only do that with a brand new harp.
And even then, I have a few harps that I just can't get rid of the squeal in some place - usually the 9 or 10 OD. So while my work is inconsistent, I know it can be done.
Yep, I meant the mineral oil is to be used only with stock marine band combs (or other soft combs). It won't work for hardwood or composite (like Dymondwood). For Dymondwood combs, I still put a little layer of lip balm. But I haven't put on a new dymondwood comb on a MB in a while (I've been a bit lazy about switching combs out these days). ----------
It has become increasingly apparent that in the realm of harp customization, "one man's poison is another man's cure."
For my own rosewood-comb harp, it is agreed by one and all that I ought to sand it--which I intend to do.
After that, the protocol becomes hazy...
The mineral oil bath is out! Is it a needful thing to add some substance to the freshly sanded comb--to mate better (e.g., to seal) with the plates, as a preservative, etc.--or is the precision sanding enough?
What is recommended, then, for a non-porous wood comb, such as the one I have in my possession? Water-based varnish (lightly coated)? A light coating of lip balm?
Once again: I do NOT own a Marine Band, NOR do I own a SP 20! Please attempt to leave them out of the discussion for a few seconds--as difficult as that may be...(lol)
@ Dean yes I get it! If you sand it perfectly flat. No you don't have to put anything on it. Are sure you don't want to talk about SP 20's? Have I mentioned I like them yet?
There was a marvelous character actor named Billy Gilbert. His 'broad' style of comedic reaction met its foil when he played opposite Laurel and Hardy--or, the Hal Roach comedies in general. His forte was what is termed "the slow boil"--such as I just did when I read your response... ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Gilbert
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2012 6:57 PM
I've only had a few rosewood combs. Some of them had "texture" - like grooves or cracks along the inside of the times. The more I sanded, the more cracks or tracks I would "uncover". I had some success with dabbing glue or some other substance with a toothpick over each big crack to interrupt the channel; so that there was no air communication from one hole to the next. I let that dry overnight and then sanded. You don't have to cover the whole track, just make sure you get one point of it.
If you don't know what I mean, then your comb doesn't have this problem.
Yes, I dig your point. It is what makes the wood lovely to hold. Guitar fingerboards, as you are doubtless aware, are often made of this very same wood.
At any rate, yes, I do know of those tiny vein-like grooves--for lack of a better term.
I will be on the lookout for those potential air channels, and I will stop any potential air pathway with a dab of glue, too.
I played around with a comb and experimented with chapstick... That's the one... There is a stock MB comb in the background. Am I talking about MBs again?
I use a small square of sandpaper and take off the edges as you describe. But that leaves them too uneven. Better than square, but not nice looking. I hold the paper over my finger and run it back and forth over the tines to get the edges truly rounded. You need to practice this on a few combs as there is a learning curve. You end up taking off too much or breaking a tine in the process...
