Gene wrote: I don't understand the sentiment that "theory is detrimental to emotionality." --- No one is saying that at all. No one.
Timeistight wrote: "Actually, you don't need either feeling or theory" -- I would have to disagree. They are both important and useful. That's what has been said here from the start.
---------- Noodles
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2012 4:57 PM
"but I'm less confident because I know how much more there is to know." I call that paralysis effect: it comes from behind your back,insidiously and I feel it as well; it's dangerous if combined with a bit of laziness. I think it's the first time it's alluded to that phenomenon. Moreover, a recent post turned into a real flooding of theory (I have to read it back anyway) which ended on no agreement====> that's theory. Not to go against MP, but I'd say that when I played a no-low-F# harp I knew it was definitely the good key, when theoricians were still fighting=====> that's practice and ears.
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2012 7:00 PM
Considering the number of responses where people have apparently misunderstood the OP, I'd say its not very clear. I have read it several times and I really don't understand what it means. "I'm drawing a line in the sand to defend us from where we may be heading in the blues harmonica world". What does that mean? I'm not trying to be obtuse. ----------
Laurent2015 wrote: Moreover, a recent post turned into a real flooding of theory (I have to read it back anyway) which ended on no agreement====> that's theory. -- The theory was appropriate- don’t you think? The thread started with a question rooted in theory. The funny thing is how several answers emerged and it all boiled down to the subtlest details. We were each hearing some parts and not others. Ultimately, you had to hear the right parts to reverse-engineer the harp parts. It came down to “ears” in the end. It was a good thread. ______________________________
Laurent2015 also wrote: "but I'm less confident because I know how much more there is to know." -- You can’t be that way. No one knows everything. Only a fool thinks he does. There is always more to learn. Confidence comes when you “know” you are well versed and can handle yourself competently-- In the harp world that comes with putting in the practice time and being persistent. But, you have to keep advancing and not just play the same things over and over. For myself it’s about leveraging what I already know and being able to use knowledge in a variety of musical situations. Each little piece of know-how that I learn is leveraged and multiplied. It has to be that way (speaking for myself.)
@noodles: It sounds as though you're in a place with regards to your own playing and listening where you just want to turn off your brain and enjoy the sound of the harmonica and the passion behind the best playing. There's nothing wrong with that. I've gone through periods in my own playing--seasons, if you will--where I'm just dizzy in love with the sound, the passion, the bittersweet tonality. That's important, and it's good that you've asked folks to remember how important it is.
I'm sure others have pointed this out, but all the players you've mentioned, and especially Howard, PT, and Jason, know a lot of theory. One reason they're able to blow our minds--not the only reason, but one reason--is that they've found a way of taking all that musical knowledge and properly subsuming it to the task of being musical.
Most of us are familiar with the music school person who just practices scales all the time, knows a lot of theory, but isn't original and can't really solo beyond....playing scales driven by their cerebration rather than their musical spirit. If that turns you off, I don't blame you. It turns me off.
A lot of people here put Dennis and Howard in different categories--the blues guy vs. the jazz guy--so it's intriguing that you've cited them both as examples of what you like.....
Drawing lines in the sand is THE foundational action taken by defenders (or creators) of particular subcultures. Subcultures police their boundaries. But lucky subcultures have people who also reach out to embrace all the disparate elements of the subculture; they take the "big tent" approach. I'm moving in that direction.
On the other hand: I heard a complete and total fake on the radio today. He's a guitarist. His name is David Gogo. His website insists that he's Canada's leading blues-rock guitar god. Bluesville played a cut by him. The playing on the song I heard was a 100% ripoff of Albert Collins. Every single lick, every single one, was a straight-up ripoff of Collins. If you didn't know Collins's playing, you'd be quite impressed by Gogo's playing. But if you know that Leonardo DaVinci painted the Mona Lisa, somebody who creates an exquisitely attentive copy just isnt that impressive. I was angry and sad to hear that. The blues world deserves better.
So we all draw our own versions of your line in the sand. Mine is an open letter to David Gogo: stop being a mimic! Be yourself, not a fake. Canada deserves better. Bluesville deserves better. I would have burned the master tape rather than release a track like that.
You wish people would stop talking scales, theory, positions, and just throw down. Me too. I want players to throw down with such magnificence that we know instantly that we're in the presence of a strong, original musical voice--especially if we know the tradition.
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2012 7:50 PM
Superbee wrote: Considering the number of responses where people have apparently misunderstood the OP, I'd say it’s not very clear. I have read it several times and I really don't understand what it means. "I'm drawing a line in the sand to defend us from where we may be heading in the blues harmonica world". What does that mean? I'm not trying to be obtuse. ________________________________________________
My apologies, I was not trying to be coy. Here’s what I’m trying to say…
I am drawing a line within myself, not against others, what they do or how they choose to do it. The line sets a priority and defines (for me) what’s most important-- musically speaking.
So, why the line and why now? Mainly because I sense a new attitude in the blues harp world, which implies (to me) that if I’m not all up to snuff with music theory then I’m less of a player and I’m limited. If you were to ask for a specific example, I couldn’t give you one—but I can feel it between the lines.
The reason I started playing blues harp, which is my main instrument, not an afterthought like so many others, was because it was an emotional release. It was fun, exciting and full of energy. It was a way to express myself in a whole new way. The notes I played were driven by a passion to play, not because it was dictated by the music science. It was me that was coming through the harp, not a mathematical formula. I spent hundreds of hours playing songs over and over on a record player no less, to learn the riffs. It was a grueling exercise, but a labor of love at the same time. Now, apparently, if you know the theory behind the music it’s a short path to being a very good player. That’s not right, is it?
Later on, after years of practicing multiple hours every day, I was ready for the theory, I knew it would make me stretch. I knew it was important for a better understanding. I had already internalized the instrument, per se’, and I wanted to learn how music worked and why it worked. It was a choice, not a requirement.
I do understand that many of today’s players are already experienced musicians and that’s how they communicate --- fine, it’s terrific and I enjoy participating in those threads. I hold no ill will. I wish I knew what they know. But when it is implied directly or indirectly that if you don’t know the theory (what they know) you’ll never amount to much--that's a bit unsettling.
Today, I get a very different feeling from harp players ---not all, but some. It’s all about theory. Without theory you can’t be that good – you’re limited. Nobody actually says that, but they imply it and it’s wrong.
So, I’m drawing a line that say’s: It’s not the theory that makes a great player, it’s the passion he puts into his playing and how he/she moves people with their music. That statement offends some people, which was never my intent.
I have never said that theory is not important. I use it everyday. What I have said is “It’s not everything.” Maybe someone can start an ongoing thread, like the For Sale 2012 thread and call it “Theory 101 for harp players”. I promise, I would be there. Then, maybe we could be one of those lucky subcultures that Kudzurunner wrote of.
I hope this explains my position more clearly.
---------- Noodles
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2012 9:35 PM
Yes, now I understand what you are saying. Thank you. I think it's probably true that harmonica Players have become more technical, and I think we are still at the leading edge of that. There are brilliant young players emerging all the time. In part that's a result of modern communication technology and knowledge sharing. This forum is a small part of the process. And it's cool I think. I'm fairly old school about the harp, but I don't think the new school impedes my enjoyment of music or the joy of playing harmonica. Sometimes I'm tempted to feel a bit overwhelmed when I hear those awesome players do their thing and realise how modest my skills are, but I am determined to not let my mediocrity become a reason to not participate. And I keep learning new stuff. I love that. And you're right about the sound. The power of one note, played beautifully, in the right place; I think that will always endure. ----------
By the way, David Gogo is an exciting and versatile guitarist and singer who has recorded eleven albums over the last eighteen years. I'd encourage you all to buy and listen to them all before you accept Adam's rather hasty judgement on his career.
Interesting discussion for someone jumping new into playing the harmonica. It seems to me the complaint is more about the over-reliance on the written word for coming to grips with the music you are creating. After all, the Portnoy video espoused a very specific and judgemental theory of "music practice". So it seems to me that theory (little t) is not necessarily the sticking point as much as the percieved overemphasis that some people place on Music Theory (big T).
To go all meta, I wonder if hanging out on an internet forum -- where the primary mode of communcation is the written word -- lends itself particularly towards theory talk...medium is the message and all that.
In any case, thanks for the post, the Jerry Portnoy theory of learning how to play music was totally foreign to me and it really opened my eyes to other ways of learning music. Having tried several other instruments (including an exceedingly unglorious one year stint in the UC Berkeley marching band) I think a completely different ear-based approach to learning music may be in order as I pick another instrument. (It will be interesting to ponder what that means exactly, and how I will pull that off...but that's a whole other discussion!)
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2012 10:51 PM
I have an amusing non-harmoinca anecdote from my brass quintet rehersal today where feeling trumped theory (I'm sure you can find examples the other way also)
We were going to play a march. It was in six eight and the sheet music said a quarter note was 164. Out tuba player usually counts us off but you could see his mental gears grinding. If you count quater notes in 6/8 you are in three, but this is a march not a waltz so it needs to be in 2. How do you get the tempo in 2 from quarter note equals 164. Its a simple math problem but not one easily done in ones head. Finnaly someone said, "Its a march, count it off in 2 at march tempo", he did and we played the march!
We all had a chuckle but then, we are all engineers.
Re: timeistight's response to my comment about David Gogo:
The track that pissed me off was called "Backstroke." It was played yesterday at 6:50 PM EST on Bluesville. It's from a 2002 album. You can sample and purchase it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Backstroke/dp/B004FCASVA
Since it's from a 2002 album, you're quite right: It's quite likely that Gogo has put aside the straight-up copyist phase of his youth and moved on to be a genuinely creative musician. When recording and issuing this particular track, he probably thought he was doing a great thing, proving that he could sound that much like Albert Collins. And who knows? Maybe he impressed enough people, doing that, that it gave him a career. You're quite right, in any case: I shouldn't judge his entire career on the basis of one ten year old cut. Even B. B. King, early on, played a lot like T-Bone Walker.
it's all just tools and 12 notes. why i play this stuff on these things is exactly what you said Noodles. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
I decided to stay out of this thread until I saw this quote by Noodles..
"During his show, Muddy spotted me hiding in a dark corner of the bar as I was trying to quietly play along with his band."
Noodles..it escapes me now but there is a name that some of the forum members use for players who do this disrespectful act. Help me out guys.
Interesting thread with lots of good opinions.
I want to learn as much theory as I can. hvyj, M.Rubin I want to learn to create from my soul. Walt I want to be loose and soft. Force nothing...bbq Bob I want to understand my equipment. harpninja I want to add all these cool licks..kudzu I want to be inspired by greatness...Ricci..Parrott
My point is, I believe to be the best I can be, in what time is left for me in this world, I need to absorb as much as I can from every direction. I refuse to block out any part of what is available to me to better myself as a musician/harmonica player.
I know there are limits to what I can absorb in all these areas and it is different for everyone, but I will not limit myself.
Theory need not consume. Just spend 10 minutes a day on it Learning theory will help you play more soulful.
I agree pure theory and music constructed to a formula is dull and dry. However I also think it's wrong to believe that unschooled players are great BECAUSE they can't describe what they are doing. Theory is great way to expand on an idea, and it is very convienient way to communicate with other musicians. Self taught is great and cool, but you wouldn't want your dentist or proctologist to just "wing it" or "get creative". Knowledge is never a bad thing.
Gerry wrote: “However I also think it's wrong to believe that unschooled players are great BECAUSE they can't describe what they are doing.”
Response: Who said that? It wasn’t me because I don’t believe that for a minute. ____________________________
Harpdude61 quoted me and responded with this: "During his show, Muddy spotted me hiding in a dark corner of the bar as I was trying to quietly play along with his band."
Noodles..it escapes me now but there is a name that some of the forum members use for players who do this disrespectful act. Help me out guys.: ---
There’s a BIG difference in being disrespectful to an ongoing performance and what I did. No, it wasn’t disrespect. Disrespect is when someone plays loudly in the audience or stands up to be seen playing along. That’s a distraction and an insult. I was “hiding in a dark corner of the bar as I was trying to quietly play along with his band." What I was doing was paying homage. It wasn’t loud or brash. I was not trying to be heard or seen. Apparently, Muddy was not insulted. He saw it for what it was.
I once saw Magic Dick perform Whammer Jammer in a small club. I could not have been more than 5 feet away. I was frozen in place, just watching every move, every inhale and exhale and every hand move. I had worked on Whammer Jammer forever. And, there it was, so close I could touch it. Was I being disrespectful then? Was I standing too close?
There should be a name for the countless blues harp players who post their videos relentlessly on YouTube, when they really suck. The funny thing is that they don’t think they suck. Am I being judgmental? Maybe. But, when they just lay it out there, it invites opinion.
---------- Noodles
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 8:09 AM
Noodles..I think they call it Gus or Gusser..something to that effect..and I'm not sure what being near Magic Dick has to do with it.
I guess if you were being quiet and no one else heard you but yourself that is cool. I've seen the bad side. Personally, I would never pull out my harp in that circumstance whether anyone could hear me or not. I prefer to focus on the musicians who are paid to perform rather than myself. My wife's elbows would hit my ribs pretty quickly anyway.
Heck, what do I know? You jammed with Muddy and I didn't. Every band or musician, harp player or not would not be so accepting of an instrumentalist in the audience.
Hey. I am 50 years old and been on this harmonica adventure for 5 years. I have posted my playing all along the way. I have gotten helpful feedback on the threads and some in private e-mails. Some from these cool players whom I've met in person.
I will try to post more videos for you Noodles..so you can watch more of me and less of those people that you think suck.
Your words inspire players on the way up as well as new players.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 8:51 AM
"I want to learn as much theory as I can. hvyj, M.Rubin"
Actually, that's not an accurate assessment of my perspective. As I've said before, if you have a great ear, theory is not as important. Personally, I don't have a great ear. My ear is better than it used to be and continues to improve, but for me, theory helps me in note selection especially playing non-blues material. And better note selection gives one's playing better emotional impact or "feeling".
Theory has also helped me understand why and how multiple position playing works, and, for me, that has made it possible to play all sorts of material I could never handle on a diatonic before i learned multiple positions.
I have no formal music training and i have a natural curiosity about how music works conceptually, so I've paid attention and absorbed info from musicians I've played with over the years and tried to relate it to harp. When one understand how things work, it allows one to come up with creative things instead of just copying.
So, theory is as theory does. I find it helpful.
"Not to go against MP, but I'd say that when I played a no-low-F# harp I knew it was definitely the good key,"
Yeah. I spent more time listening to the live vid and was certain Charlie was playing in 5th position. I listened to the studio recording in the OP enough to know 5th position would work (even though i did not pick up that part of it was played in 3rd). My ear is good enough to discern a minor key when I hear it and my ear and familiarity with minor positions is good enough to hear that 5th position was being played in the live vid.
Now my ear is usually NOT good enough to identify what KIND of minor key is being played. So, when a minor tune gets called, i will ask what KIND of minor it is if I don't already know. Once I'm told, i know enough theory to be able to pick the harp that gives me a position that will work for that tune--which is an example of how theory helps me play. Again, theory is as theory does.
Theory keeps me from trying to force fit all minor tunes into 3rd position which I think helps me play more musically and with better feeling in minor keys.
If ya don't OB--and maybe even if you do--diatonic harp is a limited instrument. For me, sometimes understanding a little theory helps me work around the limitations of the instrument by, for example, using a different position or playing extension tones on the high end in 2d position which enables me to play with more fluidity and feeling.Does one NEED theory to do these things? NO. But it has definitely helped me to figure them out. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 9:24 AM
Harpdude wrote: Your words inspire players on the way up as well as new players. --- Do I detect a bit of sarcasm? Well…maybe not. I certainly don’t want to question your intentions, like mine are being repeatedly questioned, misquoted and over analyzed. The truth is that I foster new players and have helped a few along the way. In fact, it’s precisely the new player who just wants to play without being belittled that I’m concerned for.
Maybe I should be more Politically Correct and just tell everyone how great they are. Hmmm, I can’t bring myself to do it. My criticism was not pointed towards anyone specifically. I guess criticism is a nice thing, so long as one agrees with it.
---------- Noodles
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 9:25 AM
A pro sax player told me that if you play well-you fit in well with the music- then you know music theory. That's true I suppose except you might not be able to communicate with other musicians.
It's possible to be an eloquent speaker without knowing how to read or write.
Noodles, something you need to bear in mind that music theory, just like language, is a tool for communication. The fear of learning theory tends to be more from the fear of learning to sight read, which is a related skill, but not the necessity it once was. Sight reading is a very necessary skill if you're going to be playing Classical, Jazz, sing Opera, or if you're going to be a full time pro session musician.
Learning basic music theory is a good tool for communication and helps you considerably when you are communication what you want from musicians who play other instruments. Theory has never been an end-all-be-all for anything, which is what too many people believe. Along with the theory, knowing where you are on your instrument of choice is important so everything makes sense.
The stereotypical argument about learning music theory tends to stem from the stereotype of the musician who can only do things from sight reading and cannot improvise, and that is often the stereotype of many classical musicians. However, it is a very similar stereotype of harp players who can only do things from reading tabs and often don't develop good listening skills as a result of doing it. Stereotypes, yes, but unfortunately, there is some truth in both of those.
Learning theory in the long run will be useful, but again, it's not an end all be all thing at all. Along with learning very basic theory, which isn't as difficult as most people make it out to be, developing good listening skills (and when I mean by that goes FAR beyond just listening to solos), and equally important, learning time, and these three things alone are complaints I often hear from people who play other instruments and, unfortunately, whether harp players like it or not, they are 100% legitimate and for many harp players, it's very tough to hear. Maybe it'ts not something politically correct to tell other harp players, but the sad truth is that if you haven't taken the time to learn these things, you fall straight into many of the negative stereotypes that harp players constantly fall into and often get dissed about, and like it or not, it is often very well deserved.
Sites like http://www.musictheory.net, which is an awesome freebie site for learning theory, is something I wish I had when I started out because it allows you to learn this at your own pace.
Learning theory and playing with emotion are two different things entirely, but theory can help you work your way out mistakes very quickly so that you can seemingly make the transition almost unnoticeable to all but the most picky ears of pro musicians (plus learning to NOT make a dumb face when you screw up helps as well, which was something I once did until a pro chewed out my butt every time I did that because not only was I making myself look bad, but everyone else on the bandstand even worse).
Just remember one thing when it comes anything in music or even anything else in one's life, and that's life is an ongoing learning process and the minute you stop learning anything, you can quickly become musically senile.
I personally don't care if you agree or not. There's plenty of people who may disagree with me here, but I don't take it personally like some people may do. Heck, as long as you play, you are always gonna get criticized, and one always needs to grow thicker skin about it. There are people here who may came from a traditional blues background as I do, and plenty of people here who could give a crap about it, and so I say, big deal. One learns often times more from stuff they don't like when they get their musical prejudices the hell out of the way and start to REALLY listen closely than from the stuff they like and just go nio further. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Interesting take on the subject Tuckster. Can't argue with that. I believe it is very possible to not have much musical knowledge and be able to become a great BLUES harp player. Now having said that I totally agree with hvyj said in his 9:04 post. It's different for everybody. It depends on the music you play,Your goals, your ability to hear and react. This something I just don't see why anyone would argue about! A man stated his opipion on how he feels about it now. That's cool! there is nothing wrong with that. Can Jason Ricci play that way? NO Can James Cotton play that way? Yes Who's right? Both!
Edit: Ditto what Bob said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was the perfect post! And I'm not $h!tt!ng on anybody hear! He is right because this is stuff that I go through with a band that I play in now! I can play blues at a high level and thought I was good! I play in a band with people that PLAY country, New Orleans funk jazz, Blues, songs that sound like the Beatles, and yes I counted one song that has 54 chord changes! Trust me it takes more than a good ear to play with these people! I'm lucky they like the way I play so they are being patient! It's not easy and I'm just treading water! So yes it is not my opinion about Bob being correct. I know he is!
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 10:21 AM
On this subject, I quote the geat musician Carlos Santana (from an interview in Rolling Stone):
"I joined my father in the streets, playing boleros. But I had my ear on Chuch Berry, Little Richard and Bo Diddley, on B.B. King and T-Bone Walker. There was nothing plastic about those guys. They went deep and each note carried something important. I knew, from a long time ago, the difference between notes and life. I'd rather play life than notes. It's OK to learn how to read music. It's not going to hurt you. You can go to the Berklee College of Music. but they do not teach you how to play life."
@barbequebob As usual, your have stated your position eloquently. You covered both sides quite nicely and I find no fault in your words. It’s a good message. Thank you. -- @Sammyharp I’m not angry in the least. Sometimes the written word is a tough beast to control. Peace brother. _______________
I hope I didn’t offend anyone in this thread. It was never my intention. I’m just looking for a way to fit into the big picture while defending what I’ve always loved and the traditions it instilled in me. Sometimes, we have to step up, state our case and be ready to defend our position. That’s progress I guess. Ultimately, it’s all about respecting each other. We all have something to bring to the table—New school and Old school.
@Adam: I don't understand why you're so upset that someone would copy another players licks. It's as if you're saying there's some unwritten law that states if you're not capable of "making it your own" then you don't have a right to play it. You probably wouldn't think much of my playing then because most every lick I know is something I copied from someone else...that's how a lot of us non theory guys learn.
I've copied a boatload of Stevie Ray Vaughn licks but then I found out that he copied many of those same licks from Albert King. In my mind that in know way made SRV any less of a player. Yes he has his own unique style along with many other greats such as Clapton, Page, or Gibbons but I've heard every single one of those players copy licks from blues players from the past and they'll be the first to tell you that.
I don't believe for a minute that any of them did it to "rip off" or disrespect anyone. To the contrary I think it pays homage to them like said in the old adage..."Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".
I'm not saying that we shouldn't strive to stretch out from our boundaries and be unique but I just don't think it's fair to criticise someone for copying a few licks here and there. Today's music sucks enough as it is but who knows what it'll sound like 100 years from now if we don't keep the past alive. I can only hope at that time there will be lots of young players out there copying your licks Adam.
I don't believe it for a second, but if some kid out there is able nail Albert Collins, then hell yeah I want to hear more. ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
I keep posting here because the way I learned/lived/played firsthand from the blues greats, is just about extinct. Play/do music the way that turns you on. Forget what others think, say, and imply. If you feel good doing what you do simply keep doing it and enjoy it. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
"I don't understand why you're so upset that someone would copy another players licks. It's as if you're saying there's some unwritten law that states if you're not capable of "making it your own" then you don't have a right to play it."
That's not what Adam is saying. It may take considerable technical skill to copy or duplicate what another great player has done. But that is not the same thing as artistic creativity which requires some sort of original contribution. So, the guitar player imitating Albert Collins may validly claim to be a terrific guitar player, but if that's all he's doing, he can't validly claim to be an original or influential artist. That requires a deeper level of individual expression that is uniquely one's own.
Besides, why bother listening to an Albert Collins clone when you can just as easily listen to Albert Collins?
"Not to go against MP, but I'd say that when I played a no-low-F# harp I knew it was definitely the good key, when theoricians were still fighting=====> that's practice and ears."
i'm fairly math challenged. i just listened to the tune and grabbed three harps. Ab, Bb, and LowF#. the Ab worked up to a point and then i played the lowF#.
i didn't play the Bb at all. as usual, i did what my ears told me.
in some cases, the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. not always, but pretty often. ---------- MP affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 11:55 AM
Hvyj the reality is no one is original. Everybody copies other players to some extent and gives their interpretation of this or that lick. Sometimes that interpretation is intentional but often it's just because they couldn't figure it out in the first place.
With that being said...at the same time we're all original. You can take 10 different players all playing the same exact lick or riff and each one will sound a little bit different.
90% of my approach to blues has been to accumulate a large database of "classic" licks and riffs to draw from and to then practice the ability to rearrange and pull them out at the appropriate time. The other 10% is comprised of what I consider original but truth be known I probably unconsciously got it from someone else.
If that means I have no "artistic creativity" or don't play on "a deeper level" then I could care less. I don't play for other people...I play for me. If others happen to enjoy it then fine but if they don't then that's fine too. In the end the only opinion that really matters is mine.
Besides... David Gogo is opening shows for Johnny Winter and that's good enough for me.
Walter, I haven't read any posts I thought were attacking. There were some posts that could be read as attacking or not attacking, depending on how your read them. That's one of the things with language is that it can often be taken more than one way, and on a forum, where there are now smiles, sighs or winks, it can be even more slippery. As to whether adults can change their minds about stuff, I think sometimes they can, but that's not necessarily what a thread like this is about. It can just be about figuring out all the possibilities are.
I have a friend who wanted to be a teacher. (Health problems have kept him from finishing his degree). He was a poor student in school, one of those kids who never saw the point of education and thought it was students against teachers.
Eventually he ran into one of those tough teachers that you see on the after-school specials, that got him turned around. It was one of those teachers who would say the sky was green and you had to prove him wrong. That got my friend thinking.
The problem is, because that's what got him motivated he thought that was how you had to motivate everyone. He'd run into students who were very put off by that style. He had a hard time adjusting his teaching style for different students.
Some people have a really hard time with music theory. We all play harmonica here because we want to. It's not like grade school where you have to pass a class. It's something that is supposed to be fun, but what makes it fun is very different from person to person. Some people like learning theory. It can be a great way to understand what goes on in music. Some people hate theory. They think it drains creativity. It can, but I think, on the whole, at least for me, it adds more than it subtracts. But that's the way my brain works. Someone else's results may be very different.
Noodles, you commented that you think players who know more theory look down on players who don't. I'm sure there are some who do, but they probably look down on you if you order beer instead of wine or drive a pickup truck instead of Porsche (or maybe they look down on you because you drive a Porsche instead of a pickup truck. There are people who are judgmental like that. There are people who look down on theory people they aren't playing from their heart!
The thing is, we all learn differently. We find different things interesting. We're all over the map. We've got people who want to copy everything note for note, and people who never want to play the same thing twice and people all over the place in between. That in itself, is interesting to some people (myself included). The problem is, there are people who become so convinced that their way is right (and it may well be for them) that they don't realize that we aren't all wired the same way.
If you like theory, learn theory. If you don't learn it there may be times when you get stuck, but there will be lots of times when you can just do it by ear. If you have a tool box, most of the tools are pretty self-explanatory. You can figure out the screw driver and the hammer, but maybe you won't know when to use a rubber mallet instead of a regular hammer. Maybe, at first, you don't realize that that little switch on your screwdriver lets it turn one direction without twisting, which means you don't have to pull it off the head of the screw with each twist. Maybe you'll figure it out, but if someone tells you what it does, it saves you time learning.
Walter, you posted a video a while back where you were doing this crazy flutter thing. I asked you how you did it. You told me. That was, at a very basic level, music theory.
Knowing what harp to grab for what key is music theory. There is a point were theory becomes book learning. What do you do with parallel octaves in multiple voices? (Pan them left and right!) Is it okay for choral voice parts to cross? (It tends to make the parts difficult for the listener to follow.) All rules are designed to be broken, but sometimes knowing the rules makes it easier to fix things that aren't working.
Some people have a really hard time with music theory. We all play harmonica here because we want to. It's not like grade school where you have to pass a class. It's something that is supposed to be fun, but what makes it fun is very different from person to person. Some people like learning theory. It can be a great way to understand what goes on in music. Some people hate theory. They think it drains creativity. It can, but I think, on the whole, at least for me, it adds more than it subtracts. But that's the way my brain works. Someone else's results may be very different.
@Old Hickory: I don't know anything about David Gogo. i was just commenting on what Adam was saying.
We all learn, borrow and steal musical ideas from others. I agree with you that originality is in how the player puts those ideas together. But if the player generates more or less note for note imitations, it may or may not be great playing, but it would not be an original artistic expression. On the other hand, there's only 12 notes plus a few microtones, so we're all essentially playing from the same repertoire anyway.
Last Edited by on Jul 13, 2012 1:03 PM
I'm not trying to be cynical, but I have a Theory question.
I've been tuning up my tongue blocking bends with a tuner recently. Purely by accident, I discovered that if I tongue block a 1-4 draw octave, I can bend the 4D while maintaining 1D(no bend) simultaneously. Is that useful in some way?
nacoran: I hear you and I am glad you have found a satifying way to do music. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. I am saying music theory can come in many forms. For me it is simply sitting down with instruments and letting my ears figure out what I want to hear. I still don't know most of the keys I play in and what notes come out of each numbered harp holes but I sure know what sounds come out because my ears tell me. I do know that when I play such and such on the guitar I use such and such harps. What is a scale? I have no idea and have no desire to learn what one is via a book or instucted lesson. Do I play them? Again I have no idea but I like what I play and it was good enough to make a living playing music with my own band and some of the greats of blues and rock for 20 years. I play what intersts me and if it doesn't no amount of money or fame sways me. Expressing what is in me without worldly concerns. That is all that matters to me. When I play with other musicians they are good enough to follow and figure what I am doing.
I could not tell you for the life of me a thing about the recording process other than to just turn dials till it sounds good to your ears. There are all kinds of numbers, frequencies, etc, on my gear but I pay no attention to that. I listen. That is what I base my recordings on. That is how I do life too. To get a book and try to connect that to music makes not sense or interst to me. Discovery is my door to learning. To each their own I say. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@ noodles - If you can do it the other way around; 2-5 TB and bend the 2 down a whole step, you can get a tongue blocked octave out of it. Same thing with the 3-6 TB. The thing to do is not think about the upper note, and just concentrate on bending the lower one. I use this sometimes in 3rd position for getting more TB octaves.
@ Noodles If it sounds good it's usefull. I think what yoy will hear is when you start to bend it will start to pulsate sounding like a leslie speaker. Now if you can control that and go in and out of the 4 draw bend with pretty good timing. I think that's one of those things that would sound cool once perfected! On a theory level. It would work in 2nd position because the 1 draw is the 5th scale degree and bending the 4 down would be like a blue 5th or the minor 5th (if you can bend a semitone). That would create tension very well. Build tension and resolve tension! If your playing 12 bar blues and your on the 9th bar (which would be the 5th or for one measure you can play in 3rd position) It would well there also. 1 draw is the root note and the 4 bend is whatever you bend it to. You see this is how knowing what your doing really helps! It's hard enough getting good at things like what you've described, but if you don't know how to utilize it your completely relying on your ears! I consider myself a student of the harmonica. I wasn't trying to prove anything other than to point out you can never know to much! The more a person knows the better perpared he or she will be!
