robc
12 posts
Apr 20, 2012
6:44 AM
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Hey Everyone. I'm looking to venture into the world of amplified harmonica but I don't have a massive budget. Is it possible to buy a half-decent rig (second-hand of course) for under £100 in the UK? Any advice or suggestions would be gratefully received. I'm just looking for something to experiment with at home initially, I'd also like to try out some effects.
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5F6H
1159 posts
Apr 20, 2012
6:55 AM
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Trawl the music shops & ebay, look out for Fenton-Weil, Triumph Leo, Watkins Westmister.
Or spend a bit more & buy a VHT special 6.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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BeardHarmonica
67 posts
Apr 20, 2012
7:16 AM
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Mic: try to get a sonotone cm-11 or Shure 533SA on ebay for around 25$
Amp: Fender champion 600, Epiphone valve junior, Harley Benton 5w are all under 200$
You can also try amp modeling for cheap like Amplitube.
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Saqqara
9 posts
Apr 20, 2012
7:53 AM
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I'm a beginner, take my advice at your peril, but just to experiment with cupping and amped tone, I bought a Samson R21 vocal mic (comes with the cable) and a tiny Honeytone practice amp for about $30 US total. (An XLR cable and impedance adapter improved my results but I could have done without it.)
Using the line out to my home stereo system or headphones this little rig was so much fun my willpower evaporated and I bought a VHT Special 6 two weeks later. The Honeytone fits in my harp case and I continue to find it useful.
Having a small child, poking around second hand shops is a bit of a challenge.
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tookatooka
2919 posts
Apr 20, 2012
8:52 AM
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"I'm just looking for something to experiment with at home initially, I'd also like to try out some effects."
For £100 you could get a Roland MicroCube and a modest mic brand new. Comes with effects.
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jimbo-G
110 posts
Apr 20, 2012
9:46 AM
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Il give you the same advise I got. Try stay away from effects and just work on tone and cupping techniques. Just a wee amp and Mic rig should be fine. Then maybe some delay. All the effects can just be distractions.
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Gig74
106 posts
Apr 20, 2012
10:05 AM
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I'll second jimbo-G's advice, I got a vox mini 3 and a bottle o blues mic, I love them both but I initially found all the effects and stuff a bit of a distraction, now I settle for just a little delay and crack on with playing.
The micro cube is very similar to the mini 3 and gets good reviews from all who use it on this site.
I also got lucky and picked up a pignose 7-100 on ebay for £33 about a year ago but now they seem to go for a lot more, I like it alot, it is a one trick pony so to speak but I like the tone I get from it and the simplicity of it.
The idea of a valve amp is good if you can pick one up cheap, I've seen champ-600 and gretsch and epiphone all for £100 or less in local music shops (I live in Dunfermline, Scotland) so I guess it's just a case of keeping your eyes open.
Best of luck
Greg.
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Living the dream and learning the blues one little trouble at a time.
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Kingley
1986 posts
Apr 20, 2012
10:15 AM
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Buy a VHT Special 6. Best small amp around by a running mile that's readily available in shops and online if you're on a budget. Then just get a Shure 545 mic and you're good to go. That is a really killer rig.
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2012 10:16 AM
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mandowhacker
117 posts
Apr 20, 2012
10:27 AM
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The variable power on the VHT is interesting. I'll have to check into it. I have a Mountain Amp that is fantistic, but quite often too loud.
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Just when I got a paddle, they added more water to the creek.
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mandowhacker
118 posts
Apr 20, 2012
10:29 AM
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I just got a Mustang Mini, have so far only used it with guitar. Six C-Cell power. Downloadable stuff with the Fuse software. It sounds like whatever I want it to. Just like my G-DEC 15 and portable. I LOVE it.
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Just when I got a paddle, they added more water to the creek.
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HawkeyeKane
899 posts
Apr 20, 2012
11:29 AM
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@robc
Check eBay for an Akai DM13. Here in the States, you can find them for as little as $20 which I guess would be about 12 and a half quid for you. They're ballsy, lightweight, dynamic, and they connect with a 6 foot 1/4" high-Z cable. So it'll sound pretty bitchin' with just about any amp you plug it into.
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Hawkeye Kane
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nacoran
5579 posts
Apr 20, 2012
11:33 AM
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I got a decent amp for $30 at a garage sale and a passable used mic in a bargain bin at a music store for $10. (The mic was 15 years ago.) You just need to look for deals. Do they have Craig's List in the UK?
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Nate
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Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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timeistight
538 posts
Apr 20, 2012
11:52 AM
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Get a good quality low-impedance Shure stick mic -- a 545 or a 57 -- and an impedance-matching transformer to allow you to go into a high impedance input. Then spend whatever's left in your budget on a cheap practice amp for playing around with at home.
With one of these mics in your bag you can be prepared for anything at a jam. You can go through the transformer into an amp or, if there's no amp available, you can go direct to a PA. These mics should last forever. Many great players (e.g., Butterfield, Ricci) used these mics exclusively, but even if you don't want to do that, they're also great for micing amps, snare drums or even vocals. And there's always a market for them if you need to sell it down the road.
One thing to watch out for with this plan is that there seem to be a lot of counterfeit Shure SM57s on ebay, so either buy new or from someone you trust.
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2012 3:21 PM
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tookatooka
2920 posts
Apr 20, 2012
2:43 PM
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@robc. Well I suppose you're totally confused now. There are so many options and combinations of amp and mic etc. Good luck working it all out but if I were you I'd seriously consider the Roland MicroCube amp.
Please let us know what you end up doing?
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rogonzab
36 posts
Apr 20, 2012
4:33 PM
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One option is this:
- Cheap vocal mic
- Decent computer speakers
- Amlitube, or another amp modeling software.
I use that exact rig and I can get hours of fun searching for a sound, and whit some basic settings (a bassman and a delay) you can achieve a very good tone.
Maybe is a good way to save and buy high quality rig, instead of spending money on something that is not that god.
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robc
13 posts
Apr 21, 2012
12:58 AM
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Lots of feedback here so thank you all for your suggestions!
I'm not sure what I'm going to do just yet - I'll begin researching the suggestions you've all made and I'll be sure to let you know how I get on. The Roland MicroCube has had a few mentions so I think I'll begin with that.
@saqqara - I have young children also so I understand how money and time can sometimes be limited!
@nacoran - They do have Craigslist in the UK. I've only just found out. Will have to check it out - cheers.
Thanks again for all of your help. This is a great forum and with a fantastic sense of community. I'll be keeping my eye on this thread for a little while longer.
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Kingley
1987 posts
Apr 21, 2012
1:27 AM
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Personally I'd avoid all the modeling amps and the solid state amps like the plague. If you're playing traditional Chicago style blues then I would say that you need a basic valve amp (VHT / Epi Jr / Pro Jr) and a mic (545 or Bullet mic). If you want to play more modern blues then just add a few pedals here and there. Most harp players have spent shedloads of money trying to find a good rig. 99% of them eventually end up with a good simple valve amp and a Shure mic of some description. A good small 5 watt valve amp can stay with you for life and along the way you'll probably acquire bigger amps of a similar vein.
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2012 1:28 AM
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Libertad
66 posts
Apr 21, 2012
2:08 AM
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Hi I am in the UK. I went for a Sure SM57 and a Vox AC4TVmini. The Vox is a very small valve combo. I also tried a few delays, but settled for a Zoom G3. The Vox and mic on their own would be sufficient to start. Where in the UK are you? If you are anywhere near Staffordshire you are welcome to come and try it.
PS the Vox has power reduction 1/10, 1 and 4 Watts.
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2012 2:10 AM
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rbeetsme
740 posts
Apr 21, 2012
5:07 AM
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All of my amps are less than a hundred pounds.
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Saqqara
10 posts
Apr 21, 2012
8:34 AM
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Could a Roland Microcube later be used effectively in front of a tube amp for effects, with a clean amp setting, in lieu of stompboxes? I like that there is a aux input on the Microcube useful for backing tracks.
As for modeling software, I don't think an amp with the capability to access online pornography is a good idea.
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robc
14 posts
Apr 21, 2012
9:34 AM
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That brings a whole new meaning to the blue third?!
I'm definitely looking to (eventually) achieve that classic Chicago sound. Is the sound generated by a tube amplifier noticeably different to that of a solid state amplifier? Is it worth spending the extra?
Assuming that one has good acoustic tone to begin with; can that original Chicago sound be reproduced simply using a good amp and mic?
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HawkeyeKane
900 posts
Apr 21, 2012
9:52 AM
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@robc
Tubes will almost always give you a more desirable tone and break up for harp than transistors will. There are a few SS amps that come closer to tube sound than others, but tubes really are the way to go.
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Hawkeye Kane
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timeistight
541 posts
Apr 21, 2012
9:53 AM
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That kind of depends on what you mean by "classic Chicago sound".
Who do you want to sound like? What kind of amp do they use?
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2012 10:13 AM
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robc
15 posts
Apr 21, 2012
10:46 AM
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@Libertad - I'm in Gloucestershire, but I appreciate the offer.
@timeistight - I'm really into Junior Wells although I have no idea what equipment he used.
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2012 10:48 AM
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Kingley
1988 posts
Apr 21, 2012
10:51 AM
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Junior Wells played mostly using a mic direct into the PA. He rarely used an amp. When he did it as most likely an old Fender valve amp of some description (concert, bassman, super reveb, twin, etc, etc).
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harponica
37 posts
Apr 21, 2012
11:29 AM
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It's called "Mr. Microphone".A microphone with a built in FM transmiter.Any FM radio will work,adjust to any station,great harp tone,cheapest way to go.
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timeistight
543 posts
Apr 21, 2012
11:52 AM
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It's funny; when most people say "classic Chicago harp tone" they're talking about bullet mic into tube amp, but lots of Chicago players (John Lee Williamson, Rice Miller, Howlin' Wolf, Junior Wells) usually just played into vocal mics. Even Little Walter sounds acoustic on a lot of his records.
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Saqqara
11 posts
Apr 21, 2012
12:17 PM
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I do get it, tone comes primarily from the player... but in that era, might the PA have been a big tube amp itself, with perhaps more character than a modern solid state PA?
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timeistight
544 posts
Apr 21, 2012
12:29 PM
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If you search YouTube, you'll see lots of clips of Junior Wells in the seventies cupping his vocal mic. I don't think those music festival PAs were tube-based.
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hvyj
2343 posts
Apr 21, 2012
12:52 PM
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Get a quality mic like a 545 or a 57. You won't ever need to replace that. It's never too early to acquire a good mic. Of course, you'll need an XLR cord and a transformer. Then get an amp you can afford which you'll probably eventually replace.
MicroCube is ok. Nothing special, but fun to fool around with. Tube amps have a nice tonal texture, but there are some solid state amps that sound very decent. Buy a mic first, then go to music stores and try out different inexpensive amps. If you find one that sounds good and gives you a sound you like, don't worry about whether anyone else considers it good for harp. If it works for you, it's right for you. You'll upgrade after a while anyway. But a quality mic is indispensable.
The nice thing about the 57 and 545 is they have proximity effect so you can overdrive the element by using a tight cup to get a Chicago sound--or not if you want to stay clean like Jr. Wells. IMHO, after the harmonica itself, the most important piece of hardware is the mic.
You can get the 545 with an on/off switch which is a very useful feature for harp. I think the 57 is a better all around mic but I also think the 545 is the better harp mic. But you won't go wrong with either one.
It's never too soon to get a quality mic.
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MrVerylongusername
2339 posts
Apr 21, 2012
12:56 PM
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Overdriving a mic has nothing to do with proximity effect.
Otherwise good advice. Get a good mic.
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hvyj
2344 posts
Apr 21, 2012
1:03 PM
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Maybe it's semantics, but proximity effect, as I understand it, boosts the bass response when the sound source is close. Put an airtight cup around the close sound source and the element behaves differently. I'm referring to that phenomenon as overdriving--but maybe there's a better or more correct name for it.
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MrVerylongusername
2340 posts
Apr 21, 2012
1:10 PM
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Yes. You are correct. Proximity effect is a boost in bass response and cupping the mic overdrives the element - it's about exceeding the sound pressure handling of the capsule.
However the two are different phenomena. The former is limited to cardioid/hypercarioid mics - the latter is universal.
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/1889233.htm
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hvyj
2350 posts
Apr 22, 2012
7:59 AM
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Gee, I could be wrong, but I've been under the impression that when you exceed the SPL of a mic that has proximity effect utilizing a close sound source, the resulting combined "overdrive" and proximity effects produce a qualitatively different sound than if one overdrives a mic that does not have proximity effect. They may be distinct phenomenon, but the COMBINATION of the two has sort of symbiotic effect on the resulting sound, I think....
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5F6H
1163 posts
Apr 23, 2012
3:04 AM
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It is my understanding that if you exceed the SPL of a mic, or cup it, that all bets are off regarding proximity effect, as this is a characteristic of the mic's normal mode of operation, in free air (uncupped).
Usually when you exceed the SPL of a mic it's nature's way of telling you to get another mic. Cupping a mic changes the response but it doesn't necessarily mean you are exceeding the mic's SPL. If your mic's SPL is being exceeded then you would never get a clean tone at any amp setting. The mic itself is not where you are typically looking to get "distortion", this should really be in the earlier amp stages.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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MrVerylongusername
2342 posts
Apr 23, 2012
6:37 AM
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You are correct Mark
As soon as you block the rear vents of a cardioid type mic you change its polar pattern - effectively it becomes unidirectional.
Cupping also changes the frequency response characteristics: in free-air there is a tendency for high-frequencies to be accentuated - the driving force being the pressure gradient between the front of the capsule and the rear. Cardioid mics are therefore 'voiced' to dampen the Hi freq response.
With the gradient component effectively eliminated in a cupped mic, there is big change change to the low frequency response. This effect is not the same as (although similar to) the proximity effect, which you rightly say is a phenomenon associated with the mic working in free air.
Regarding SPLs - when you create an airtight seal you are effectively putting a huge increase in physical air pressure onto the capsule. In mechanical terms the capsule responds in the same way as it would if it was being overwhelmed by a high SPL.
My reason for making the above referenced post, were Hvyj's comments in another thread (months ago) that the Audix Fireball did not distort when cupped because it did not have a proximity effect - an inaccurate statement based on lack of understanding of what the proximity effect is.
The Fireball does not distort when cupped because it is designed to handle very high SPLs.
His statements in this thread:
"The nice thing about the 57 and 545 is they have proximity effect so you can overdrive the element by using a tight cup to get a Chicago sound"
and
"the resulting combined "overdrive" and proximity effects produce a qualitatively different sound than if one overdrives a mic that does not have proximity effect"
repeat that misunderstanding.
The 57 and 545 and many other cardioid mics distort when cupped because they are not designed to handle large SPLs. Proximity effect is absent in a cupped mic although a much larger increase in bass response for other reasons may occur.
Proximity effect really has very little (almost zero) to do with mics as harp players use them.
Anyway, this diversion has taken things way off-topic. Apologies to RobC for that.
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2012 6:47 AM
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garry
202 posts
Apr 24, 2012
5:17 PM
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"Personally I'd avoid all the modeling amps and the solid state amps like the plague."
my vox vt-30 sounds much better than my vht special 6, has delay and reverb built in, and is loud enough to gig with as well.
it also cost me less and weighs less.
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MP
2185 posts
Apr 24, 2012
6:01 PM
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Don't go cheap. that is a big mistake.
just because something has distortion doesn't mean it is good. it means it has distortion. :)
beware of danelectro honeytones and bottle-o-blues type stuff.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name for info-
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chromaticblues
1215 posts
Apr 25, 2012
7:29 AM
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If you live in the UK then you should be able to find a Late 60's Rickenbocker 5 watt amp. It is very much like the US Kalamazoo. These are farrly inexpensive amps. They do suffer from the same enginnering flaw that the Kalamazoo did. The heater circiut isn't center tapped. It is a very easy fix though. Anyone that can hold a soldering iron without burning themselves can do it.
There must be some UK made old dispatch mics lieing around in thrift stores.
Do some research and take your time and you should have no problem!
When ever I get in a hurry about needing something
I spend more than I should!
When ever I spend more than I should my wife gets mad!
When my wife gets mad the quality of my life suffers!
Take your time!
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HawkeyeKane
903 posts
Apr 25, 2012
8:06 AM
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@chromaticblues
Do you happen to have a model name of that Ricky amp? I'm having trouble finding anything about it.
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Hawkeye Kane
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chromaticblues
1216 posts
Apr 25, 2012
8:17 AM
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NO I didn't get the info off the internet. I owned one about 15 to 18 years ago. It had the same tubes as the Kalamazoo and the same (or darn close) voltage. I just remember it have all the same design flaws of the Kalamamzoo. I did the same stuff I have done to most of the Kalamazoo's (Epiphone)that I've owned. I never hear any talk about the Epiphone, but there was an Epiphone that is the same thing as a Kalamazoo. I've own two of those also. These little amps are great for learning how to work on amplifiers and they sound great at low volumes!
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