I've started playing the harp at aged 60! Never played one before. Have been playing the harp for two months now. I have no problem playing single notes and bending 1-6 and starting to improvise reasonably well in G - second position on a C harp. Bought a MB in C but am now looking to buy a MB in D and wondered what to get. In particular I was blown away by a YouTube clip of Sonny Boy Williamson II playing "Bye Bye Bird" and would really like to have a go at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLV-qzSgIo
I think he was using a MB 364. Is that right? Anyway, I would like to get a low-D (as well as a standard D harp) and am not sure what to buy. I like the Marine Bands if the C harp I have is anything to go by. Is it worth getting the MB 364? Any advice would be really appreciated, thank you.
I don,t use my low tuned harps that often except on certain tunes if I get the urge.Any way,I,ve got 3 in total,a D,F and an E.The A and D are Big Rivers and the E is a Sp 20.I,ve had these for 5 yrs or more with no problems.If you are experimenting I would try the Big Rivers,they are inexpensive and have a Marine Band feel somewhat to my lips.I hav,nt tried the T-Birds yet but know you will have to shell out twice as much for one of these.
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2012 4:55 AM
I'm not sure about recommendations on who does the best low D, opinions will differ. I play Marine Bands and, although I don't own a low D I do own a low F, Low F# and Low Eb, all of which I have been very happy with.
Hohner also do a range of low tuned harps called Thunderbirds, these are Marine Bands built specifically for/with low tunings. I haven't tried one but have heard good things.
Also, if you are looking at longer harps like the 364(12 hole), you might consider the 365 SBS (Steve Baker Special) which is a 14 hole harmonica. The tuning in these harps expands down rather than up which means the first 3 holes on the low end are the same notes as the first three holes on a normal diatonic but an octave lower, then you get a regular diatonic layout with an extra hole at the top end. This means you can play and licks, riffs etc. that you already know ( which use the first three holes of a normal diatonic) an octave lower without having to learn new breath patterns.
A low-D is quite a big jump from a C harp. If you want to get both a low-d and a regular D, then do so at the same time so that you can appreciate the difference. If you want to get only one, be aware that the low-D will not be like any other harp you will own.
Aside from the challenge of actually maneuvering on a low-tuned harp, there is the issue of the lower holes draw reeds.
If you draw too hard on a standard-tuned harp, you will flatten the note, especially on the low holes. This is very pronounced on a low-tuned harp. The second big thing is that the draw reeds swing very far on a low harp and unless you use very little breath force, the reeds will hit the coverplates and buzz. There are three common solutions to this:
1 - Play softly (Never a bad idea!) 2 - Modify the coverplate with a hammer and a round tool to make a protrusion where the 1 draw reed would otherwise hit the plate (do this without completely distorting the coverplate!) 3 - Get a low harp linke the Tunderbird where the draw coverplate is tapered away on the low end.
As for brands, I know Big River harps are hit-and-miss, but I have known them to be pretty good in the low keys - they play well and the problem with the low-end draw reeds is less pronounced than with another brand of harp like a Marine Band - in my experience, but I have only ever owned a handful of low harps.
A MB 364 is big. Is there an advantage to a MB 364 over a regular low-tuned harp? I dunno.
The easiest thing to do is to get a Low D Marine Band and modify the bottom coverplate. That isn't hard to do, but it does require some patience. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
I've never had a problem with my low D SP20. Love it. The only drawback I can see with it as opposed to some other low key models is that Hohner doesn't offer SP20 low key reedplates for replacement. I don't know if reed-by-reed repair guys like MP can do low key reeds or not. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Unless the coverplates have been modified, any low harp will rattle on the low holes. However, you CAN deal with the rattle issue by modifying your playing technique. I have a low D spec 20, and I had a hard time with the rattle at first. Then I changed the way i attacked the low holes (much slower, more calculated attack), and now I don't have much issue with rattling... ---------- == I S A A C ==
While maybe technically possible, sound technique should get you down to Low E or Low Eb on most harps without any issue.
I've found MB's to rattle before Special 20's (the lowest I've tried is LEb with no rattle). No rattle on my LD BR either. On MB's, I usually have to intervene on E or lower, but you can totally get one to rattle on a LF if you really pull on it.
GM's can rattle on G or even A if you really hammer on it, but within expected playing ranges, it is no issue.
The 1847's won't rattle on the 1 with the stock coverplate, but there is a reason they don't make them lower than C...because those will rattle up to holes 3-4 with a modest attack (I have a low Bb that will do this on occassion).
The brass Seydels sometimes have valves, which I don't like, but they don't rattle.
I get zero rattle on my T-Birds which go down to LLF. I haven't had to do any mods - even gapping - with those. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Hey Mike, Just curious.. When you say "they don't make them lower then C.. because .. rattle" Can you clarify?
For Low D, my favorite is the Seydel Session Steel with 1847 cover plates. I don't experience reed strike even with the standard 1847 plates, but for the same price, Seydel offers the re-configured plate with the dimple in it.
---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
different models are interesting. i've had to mod a regular G GM bottom plate with a glass cutter( the ball end to make a relief) so it wouldn't rattle, but had no rattle at all on a low D SP/20. some older 364s have deeper covers than newer ones.
some people have trouble with the depth of the covers on older 364s. i think 365s have 14 holes rather than 12. those are BIG harps.
i really dig my echo vamper low C. it appears to be the predecessor of the 364. the only difference being what it says on the covers and the deep squareish shape of them.
----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2012 12:06 PM
yeah, i wouldn't recommend 364s or 365s. too leaky and bulky. like a giant 1896.
i work on my stuff so i can fix flaws but who wants an arts and crafts project when they buy a harp? most people just want something that plays well out of the box.
i think it's best to go with 10 hole low keys. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Hi dar. Welcome to the forum. You have gotten a lot of good answers here. However if it's bye, bye bird you want to play I think SBII is playing on a low C. Maybe he does some version on a low D too. Play along a bit with your regular c in second position and see how it sounds. Just so you don't get the wrong expensive harp... ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
MP, yeah I agree. I bought it because a music store in NYC had a bunch of old stock that was really cheap... I couldn't pass it up to try. It sits right next to my old Tremolo harp in a case of stuff I don't really use.
I love the low tuned harps. I always used the 14 hole marine band but since the low tuned harps have come out I prefer them. Here is one with a low d. It starts with a regular A marine band. the low d is a marine band and both are bone stock. I like when they rattle on the low hole. It adds to the sound IMO. walter link to the low d song
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I am checking out low harps. Got a LLF aluminium comb Seydel which has great tone and response. Have to play with a little care on the low notes but sounds great.
I regularly use low d low eb and low e in Big Rivers and Sp. 20's.
I don't have much trouble with rattle on these.
I'm wondering if anyone has compared the Thunderbird with Seydel lows or with the Solist 12, for general response, tone, etc.
Thunderbirds don't have the ratttle at all. They have special bottom cover plates designed after Filisko's plates. I have a LLF and I can't make it rattle if I try. Thunderbirds are the best stock low-tuned harps you can buy IMO. Great tuning, wondeful response, and LOUD!!! I do alot of set-up and customizing, and i didn't have to do a thing to my thunderbirds. They play perfectly out of the box. ---------- C. Adam Hamil Free Reed Instrument Technician
I have a low F and low D Thunderbird and they are great. I'll say that a low D is challenging when you're working those bends on the low end. For me anyway.
I have a low C tuned to Bb. The higher reeds like 3 and 4 draw hit the coverplate. The conical plates avoid this. This partially explains the limited keys available. Honestly, the low 1847's are really good harps, but the Tbirds are worth the extra cost. Brilliantly done. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Dar- I thought I was a late starter at 43! My hat goes off to you. If I were you,I'd hold off on getting a LD or 364 for now. It could lead to frustration for a newbie. Of course if you have your heart set on tackling "Bye Bye Bird",go for it, if you have the money to blow.
My experience with low tuned harps: I have Big Rivers in LF & LD. They play great,no rattles. I find the LF more useful and use it on a couple of tunes. Haven't used the LD on anything yet,but I like it. I recently got a MB in LEb. It rattles on hole 1 at anything but the slightest breath force. When it rattles,it also goes flat. No matter how careful I am,I can't get the 1-4 octave tongue slap without it rattling. Just my 2 cents.
I have a 364 in C and apart from it being long it is a mouthful. Very fat and for me uncomfortable. I love low harps and use my Low D all the time. In fact low D up to Ab are my favourites. I play some fiddle tunes on the Low D. Here is something I hit the record button on 2 days ago whilst mucking about with a Low D and a D. It's a Hohner sp20. The thumping is me tapping on the desk & the mic picked it up. Gives an idea of some uses /sound of a Low D.
I have a Session Steel in Low D and I really like it. I have not experienced the reeds rattling but it does sound its best when played softly. I like the way the low reeds keep ringing for a second or so after you stop blowing. It kind of creates its on reverb.
here is a stock marine band low d on my harp rack with the 1 man band. I have been using this harp a lot lately due to a great deal on them from rockin ron. Walter tired of all these lightweight blues songs ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I mentioned this in another thread, but I don't play anything higher than Eb with a band. I switch to low harps at that point.
For my solo gigs, I only use standard harps to solo, which isn't every song...so I get a lot of miles out of low harps - I have every key other than Low B and Low Ab. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
The bottom covers on Seydel 1847's lower than G prevent rattling from happening because they have a special little "hump" on it (for a lack of a better description) that allows the #1 draw reed to vibrate freely without rattling.
The average player tends to play their harps FAAAAR too hard all the time, especially from they key of A and lower and the harder you play, the more often the rattling occurs.
One also needs to get used to adjusting to every different key because each one reacts differently, tho most of the timne, the differences are sublte but you need to take some time woodshedding with them before using them in a gig or in a jam, something too many players don't bother doing. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I concur with PistolCat. I'm fairly certain that Bye Bye Bird is played on a Low C. The version I have on my mp3 player is from the Yardbird sessions and I don't have a Low C but play along all the time with my regular C.
Thank you everyone for the welcome to this forum, great replies and suggestions.
I thought Bye Bye Bird was played on a low-D simply because I first came across SBW II playing that piece on that YouTube clip I first mentioned, but since posting my message I've come across two other YouTube clips of SBW II where what looks like a a low-C is used. Am I right then traditionally SBW II uses a low-C for Bye Bye Bird? Because if so I'll get a low-C rather than a low-D.
364 or 365 marine band in C I like the 365 the 4 hole blow is the 1st hole blow on a little marine band. It comes in D but has to be special ordered. The big G isn't low it's just got 4 extended notes on the high side. With practice you can do bends that sound like a sax on the 365 C.
Hi Dar. I'm not completely sure if low-c or low d is the "traditional" harp key. Go with what your going to jam to. If your just going to play it maybe choose the key in which you want to sing? I use spotify and have listened to the song on the album "Sonny Boy Williamson II: his best" and "The blues masters" were it's called "bye, bye bird - mono version" They are both in G ie low C as far as I can tell. If you like that song... have you listened to Rick Estrin's "Getting out of town"? This version is on a low D.
---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 11:47 AM
last month watched john mayall at age 78 play a 1-hour plus gig, lots of harp, one song he was chugging the whole time... still plenty of time to get good sir!
i started harp (music for that matter) at 38. I got a hohner special 20 in low D and its fine. "Son of Dave", a solo act, used low harps in all his songs. Off the top of my head "Aint Goin to Nike Town" (See youtube) or another of his songs there uses low D. It's not Sonny Boy but he has an interesting style. Search also instructional on how to play low harps.
