Blown Out Reed
269 posts
Dec 14, 2011
3:19 PM
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With the advancements of Valved Diatonics & Alternate Tunings
Why learn to overblow?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of these 3 options?
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Buzadero
904 posts
Dec 14, 2011
3:31 PM
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"What are the advantages and disadvantages of these 3 options?"
So you can stay with one simple harp type?
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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nacoran
5036 posts
Dec 14, 2011
3:32 PM
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You only have a certain number of holes on a 10 hole harmonica (10 to be exact). If you want to cover 3 octaves you have to make some compromises somewhere and different people will want to make those compromises in different spots. Even if you add extra holes you are making a compromise. A solo tuned harp doesn't lay out as nicely for chords. Overblow is just one way to skin it. Even if someone came up with the 'perfect' tuning, people would want to be able to play the classics on it, and that would lay out best on a regular old Richter- and then they'd want to play something else that required notes the Richter needs to overblow for and not want to take out a new harp. So the question becomes- will harp A be better for a specific song than harp B? How about the next song?
I haven't played around much with valves. They bother me, so until someone solves the issues of sticky valves and valve clicks and all that, they aren't likely to win me over. I prefer a minor tuned harp for a minor tuned song though, but when I switch back to major I'm going to switch back to a standard tuning. Solo tuning works well if you are just playing single, clean notes without bends... my solo tuned harps are all tremolos though (that was actually my first harp, a little Blessing Tremolo my grandmother gave me- I wish the covers were sturdier. :( )
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Nate
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Michael Rubin
371 posts
Dec 14, 2011
3:49 PM
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I do not mean to be rude, but I wonder if the question is, "Overblows are hard for me, can I just not learn them?"
And the answer is yes. Play a chromatic harp. Play a diminished harp. Play a valved harp. Play any tuning that allows for a chromatic scale. Accept that you will have to learn a new layout and some of the advantages of the richter tuned harp will go away. But some cool things will show up. Or , use a richter tuned harp, don't overblow and make beautiful music with a limited amount of notes.
However, what is hard for you this year, may not be hard for you next year. That, and a well customed harp is easier to overblow.
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MrVerylongusername
2116 posts
Dec 14, 2011
3:54 PM
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I doubt it.
Chromatics have been available for 100 years.
I bought my first Valved Promaster about 20 years ago
Lee Oskars alternative tunings have been commercially available since the late 80s
The XB40 has hardly set the harp world on fire.
And still the regular 10 hole diatonic in standard tuning outsells every alternative.
OBs are here to stay. (just as all the other chromatic playing options are)
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timeistight
265 posts
Dec 14, 2011
4:11 PM
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Has anyone beside PT Gazell really mastered playing valved harps chromatically?
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Michael Rubin
372 posts
Dec 14, 2011
4:17 PM
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Timeistight: Has PT? I appreciate PT's playing, but one of the things that it seems to be about is adding chromatic scale tones to 1st, second or third position. Is PT playing in any key on any harp? Publicly? I may be wrong, but I do not think he is.
Alex Paclin is very good at valved harps.
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timeistight
266 posts
Dec 14, 2011
4:24 PM
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@Michael, I guess that's what I meant: PT plays convincing jazz with tricky modulations on his half-valved harps.
Isn't Alex Paclin an overblower rather than a valved-harp player?
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2011 4:31 PM
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gene
984 posts
Dec 14, 2011
4:24 PM
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"...And the answer is yes. Play a chromatic harp. Play a diminished harp. Play a valved harp. Play any tuning that allows for a chromatic scale...."
OR...There's still plenty of territory to cover on a regular Richter without overblows.
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Cristal Lecter
206 posts
Dec 14, 2011
4:31 PM
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I'm completely with Michael Rubin on for first answer...
Blow out reed, this is not because it seems easier for you to play a valved harmonica that you have to say that overbends (more correct term I think) are outdated, you obviously lack of personal appreciation on people like Howard Levy, Jason Ricci, and many more...OVERBENDS ARE LIKE YOUR DRAW BENDS ON YOUR RICHTER TUNING INSTRUMENT
Why are we still going back all over again on that question: OVERBENDS ARE NOTES JUST LIKE THE OTHER
To solve your issue, on that one, I recommend hard work and patience period
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arzajac
703 posts
Dec 14, 2011
4:40 PM
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Despite each option's disadvantages, I don't think you should ever have to pick just one option.
I think overblows sound wimpy and are really hard to get to sound nice. Even the world's best harp players only nail it some of the time. Not to mention than it takes a lot of time or money to keep a set of overblow harps.
But the advantages are that Richter tuning is everywhere. Most players rely on the chords it provides.
Altered tunings are wonderful, but you never get something for nothing. You may have to sacrifice being able to play some chords or play some riffs you really like to play. But it's often fairly easy to modify a harp to alter it's tuning (look up blu-tak).
Valves or half-valving is something I want to look into. PT posted a link to his website. He is offering PT-method half-valved Seydels. The problem with factory half-valving is that it may not be perfectly adjusted - these harps come straight from PT so you would be getting the real deal.
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Cristal Lecter
207 posts
Dec 14, 2011
5:01 PM
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" I think overblows sound wimpy and are really hard to get to sound nice. Even the world's best harp players only nail it some of the time.'
What??? Have you heard playing live Carlos Del Junco, Jason Ricci, Michel Herblin, and of course Howard Levy, I should add as well Todd Parrott, and yes myself
How dare you say something like that???
On my side I dare you to come on Skype and I play a couple of notes and YOU'll tell me if they're overbends, this is ridiculous
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2011 5:54 PM
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HarpNinja
2003 posts
Dec 14, 2011
7:26 PM
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The draw and blow bends on a well set-up diatonic sound just as off as overbends on the same harp. I am 100% convinced that there is no difference between the two as to how relevant they are.
I also think that so many harp players are brainwashed to the timbre of the harp as it is played within the blues idiom that alternately tuned harps still sound "wrong".
Take for example tuning the 7 draw down a half step. It sounds every bit as out of place as a well played 6ob. It just isn't a note we think we're supposed to hear.
See the diminished examples post here previously. If you have an ear for harp at all, you can hear notes played 100% in tune and they still don't sound like regular harmonica.
I have a slew of horrible harmonica habits, but one thing I have great confidence in is playing an overbend like any other note. I also think 99% of people who bitch about their relevance have little experience in playing them correctly or on a harp that is set-up correctly.
I will 100% concede that even when played in pitch and with a full tone, they can sound like the "wrong" notes...BUT SO DO ALL BENDS!!!!! My biggest frustration with the forum (as it pertains to technique) is the blatant ignoring of the fact that ALL bends have a different timbre than nonbent notes. Anyone who really thinks this through realizes the parallels between standard bends and overbends is the EXACT SAME.
I think there should be a rule that you can't complain about overbends unless you can hit all the draw and blow bends in tune and with full ton at least 75% of the time.
Another perspective is comparing this to jazz on diatonic. Honestly, it does very little for me even when well played. However, I'd be an idiot and continually flamed if I dismissed it as musically irrelevant just because 1.) it isn't my thing 2.) I can't play it well 3.) I hears someone play it poorly.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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HarpNinja
2004 posts
Dec 14, 2011
7:32 PM
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I feel bad because there is nothing in the OP to take it as a us against them kinda thing, but it has headed that direction.
To be on topic, non-Richter tuning is limited just like Richter. Alternate tunings create as many problems as they solve. For example, playing a flat 3 in second position in the middle of the harps and still getting the chording possibilities of 2nd pos blues harp.
The valve thing slays me. It takes just as much effort and technical know-how to master using valves as it does overblowing. I don't see a difference between that and overblowing. There is a learning curve, 99% of players will play them with poor tone/out of tune, and notes still won't always feel right.
I hear this all the time with Brendan's harps (alt. tuning). He is an amazing player with excellent tone...but my ear hears the notes I am not supposed to and I get thrown off. This leads to my point of all points with just about anything harmonica - we are the only people who give a shit about any of this.
I play in front of harmonicas 1% of the time I play harmonica, but like most of us, I worry about their opinion 99% of the time.
Audiences don't care which of the three you use, and last I checked no one got rich being a harmonica players' harmonica player.
Bottom line: All three are great approaches that you should feel free to explore. It'll piss off most other harmonica players, though.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2011 7:33 PM
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oldwailer
1791 posts
Dec 14, 2011
7:38 PM
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YAWN!!!!
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Oldwailer's Web Site
Always be yourself--unless you suck. . .
-Joss Whedon
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easyreeder
58 posts
Dec 14, 2011
7:56 PM
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"I play in front of harmonicas"
Now THAT's what I call difficult technique.
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Cristal Lecter
209 posts
Dec 14, 2011
8:00 PM
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@Buzadero and Oldwailer
Yeah I understand that it might bother you, BUT this is an important subject, because this is the most valuable corner stone that you can get when it comes to change the entire vision of the diatonic
This is with playing it in a modern way that other musicians will no longer look at us with a condescending look, AND most importantly to be taken seriously by the public playing something else than the "niche" music that most of the people are not listening to (don't get me wrong I still listen to Sonny Terry , Sonny Boy Williamson II and Little Walter with shivers on my spine and goosebumps, but there's so much other musics to explore and it NOT a bad thing)....And making it interesting because of the personality very strong of our instrument.
It's up to US to convey a new message if we want the rise of a new era for this instrument
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2011 8:02 PM
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nacoran
5037 posts
Dec 14, 2011
8:04 PM
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Let's not go lip purse vs. tongue block on this. It's a good question to look at. There are some reasons to think harmonica will change over time. There is an app for iPhone that turns your iPhone into a (lousy) harmonica. There are lots of reasons for the sensors on iPhones to get better, so maybe someone will develop a fully electronic harmonica that plays like the real thing. If you just need to push a button to completely change the tuning people might pick a different tuning for each song. There are already harmonicas with built in pick-ups. There is a diatonic harmonica with a magnetic slide (which sounds really cool in the video I've seen of it.) That doesn't mean they will necessarily replace diatonics, but it doesn't mean they won't.
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Nate
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easyreeder
59 posts
Dec 14, 2011
8:10 PM
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You can have my metal reeds when you pry them from my cold dead fingers!
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Cristal Lecter
210 posts
Dec 14, 2011
8:14 PM
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Nacoran,
Yeah exploring new ways of building the harmonica is always very interesting, BUT I think the tools, the way to play this instrument in with the traditional Richter tuning is a good start....(Don't get me wrong Brendan Power is a friend and he has invited me to play with him on Stage in Sydney in January and we use an entire different approach of the instrument)
I think the next step (which tried Brad Harrison) is to try to produce with the constrain of the mass production, an instrument that will be set up with the overbends standard. This is a challenge but fromthis day I think an entire new generation of kids will begin to play exactly the same as the saxophone, guitar, piano etc...
_________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also know as "Christelle Berthon"
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2011 8:16 PM
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boris_plotnikov
668 posts
Dec 14, 2011
8:28 PM
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I'm Richter overblow player now. I'm not a big fan of playing with valves (although I like to listen to PT), but I don't feel, that valves will fit my music (I play solo valved chromatic, but actually I dislike tone and response, so I don't want valved diatonic for me). But I'm absolutely shure that Richter is a tuning from previous century. It's so pitty I didn't start playing Powerbender or Powerchromatic from the very beginning, 11 years ago. I don't feel I will be good with Powerchromatic as good as with Richter, but I'm practicing a bit regularly and I feel great power (((: of this tuning. I recommend Power tunings to some clever newbie students.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Buzadero
906 posts
Dec 14, 2011
9:31 PM
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It doesn't bother me at all, Christal.
My original reply was lightly veiled support of the overblow.
My above reply to Mr Wailer (no relation to Bunny, I'm almost positive), was even lighter teasing of my Man, O.W.
I'm on your side, Sister.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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gene
985 posts
Dec 14, 2011
10:26 PM
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"...The valve thing slays me. It takes just as much effort and technical know-how to master using valves as it does overblowing...."
I strongly disagree...At least in my case....
I had some valved Promasters and I had no problem getting those bends on any of the holes in any of the key harps. (I ripped those rattlin' bastards off!) But I have yet to make even the slightest progress in getting an overblow. (I never had any specially set-up harps.)
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MP
1912 posts
Dec 14, 2011
11:07 PM
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i remember when suzukis valved pro-master came out.
i think its' been 20 years?
a student of mine had one and it was very easy to play. too easy, in fact.
if you played w/ any power you'd get a blow bend whether you wanted it or not. had to play it with kid gloves on.
i might revist valved harps again and see if i still feel the same. i might like them.
overblows took me a good 4 1/2 months to get consistent results. now it seems like i can't do a second position run w/out that 6 OB rearing its' ugly head. i can't play james browns 'the chicken' w/out it.
i think some are being a little hard on arzajac. its' hardly a crime to express ones opinion.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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Cristal Lecter
212 posts
Dec 14, 2011
11:19 PM
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@MP
I'm hard and strongly express MY opinion (philosophical sense of this word, issued by a real thinking, underpinned with examples and serious arguments) when a person is expressing counter truths and try to apply HIS own experience of one thing on the back of others, without measuring that what he says goes completely against the several decades experience of confirmed players and I'm talking about major actors of the diatonic harmonica.
This is with this kind of vision based on the the non understanding and lack of experience that the progress in putting the diatonic in the 21st century is constantly postpone on the large scale and in the general public...
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_________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also know as "Christelle Berthon"
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Jagrowler
70 posts
Dec 15, 2011
1:21 AM
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@ Blown Out Reed - great original question, and it would very interesting to have an intelligent conversation on this topic.
Back to reality, it appears too many people are defending how THEY play, and not leaving the option for others to play differently.
As always, very thoughtful replies from HarpNinja and Boris - there are some who could learn alot from this style of posting.
For me, I imagine overblows are here to stay, but hope that many players experiment with valved and alternate tuned harps and produce something interesting (and if WE are extremely lucky, something great). You all should understand that 'elevator music' will not be any more interesting just because it includes a few well executed overblows! (although the player may mistakenly believe this to be the case).
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Cristal Lecter
213 posts
Dec 15, 2011
1:58 AM
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'elevator music'
Thanks a lot Jagrowler whatever your name is. Funny that you don't have the courage to attack me with not saying my name....But this is some aspect of the human nature to not show a particular courage from time to time
Most importantly I was NOT talking about me, but the name I''ve mentioned (Howard Levy Carlos del Junco, Jason.........)
Learn to read before trying to look smart
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_________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also know as "Christelle Berthon"
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2011 2:02 AM
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tf10music
108 posts
Dec 15, 2011
2:24 AM
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"Learn to read before trying to look smart"
The irony...
As for the original question, here's the bottom line for me: whatever sounds good.
I wish I could play overblows, but don't feel like I'm on a level where I even want to attempt to incorporate them into my playing. That said, I do have a powerbender, and love it. I think all approaches are valid as long as the sound produced is stirring. I really respect and enjoy the work of a great many OB players, and, all genres considered, Brendan Power may be my favorite harp player (especially amongst those currently living). Call me crazy, but I really don't care about technique for technique's sake -- and that statement doesn't just apply to harmonica. One of the best folk guitarists in the world (in my opinion) plays clawhand, which I'm sure is technically frowned upon in both classical (definitely classical) and fingerstyle circles. His performances are still unbelievable and his melodies are still really intricate. It's the result that matters. So if someone is passionately defending overblows over an alternate technique that can achieve similar results, then I'd note the inherent bias of the argument and move on. In situations like that, it really boils down to personal preference. Obviously there ar benefits in staying within the richter tuning and incorporating an OB style, just as there are benefits in using alternate tunings, or valves. Overblows/draws are tools like any other technique, to be used or discarded. Making them sacred like so many seem to be doing is just as foolish as rejecting them altogether.
If people put as much emphasis on songwriting as they do on technique, we'd have a lot more great music out there than we do now. Again, it's the result that takes precedence -- every time.
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REM
121 posts
Dec 15, 2011
2:34 AM
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Wow, Christelle you need to stop being so self involved and stop assuming that everything is about you, it's extremely egocentric. Nothing in jagrowler's post said anything about you, but you automatically assume that it MUST be about you, and then you feel the need to retaliate by insulting jagrowler. You need to get over these ridiculous insecurities.
I also don't understand your response to MP (I mean that literally, I don't understand what is you are trying to say). Did he say something to offend you as well?(I have no idea what it could possibly be)
"when a person is expressing counter truths and try to apply HIS own experience of one thing on the back of others, without measuring that what he says goes completely against the several decades experience of confirmed players"
I'm still not completely sure what it is you're trying to say, but this quote reminds me of the time when you got in an argument with Chris over the 1 overblow. You repeatedly insisted that the 1-OB could only be used as a passing note, and you insisted that it was impossible to play a sustained 1-OB (and your only reason for believing this was because some other harp player told you so). You continued argue and insist you were right, despite the fact that Chris told you that he himself could play a sustained 1OB and so could many other people.
Hopefully when you read this you won't get so angry that you publicly announce that you're quitting the forum, due to some percieved injustice, and then unnecessarily demand that your username/account be deleted (as you have a habit of doing).
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tf10music
109 posts
Dec 15, 2011
3:02 AM
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REM: artistic insecurity plagues us all, in one form or another. Some are agressive about it on the internet. It's partly due to differing approaches to creation (or lack thereof, in many cases). Obviously, some feel the need to vehemently defend their approach even when it isn't really being attacked. They even, dare I say it, resort to blatant logical fallacy to drive their points across.
I'd like to reinforce that the only thing that matters is the final product, and that I wish people would devote themselves less to meaningless sacralization of technique and more to writing great songs. So much musical talent is wasted due to this issue of focus. And then imagine if, god forbid, people actually worried about lyrics that possess any sort of depth. For a genre that supposedly admires the troubadour tradition (or some equivalent, anyways), a lot blues really rehashes the same old tropes. I think we'd be better served worrying about that than arguing over technique. Technique alone can't write a song.
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jim
1080 posts
Dec 15, 2011
3:10 AM
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@nacoran: sticky valves on the diatonic??
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jim
1081 posts
Dec 15, 2011
3:19 AM
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Overbends are here to stay.
Valves are here to stay.
Alt. tunings are here to stay.
So stop wasting your time on this thread and practice all three.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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Buzadero
907 posts
Dec 15, 2011
4:32 AM
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What Jim said...
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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arzajac
704 posts
Dec 15, 2011
4:41 AM
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Oh my goodness!
I should have know this was a touchy subject. I guess I focused on sharing my perspective on the three choices from the original question rather than avoiding landmines!
Without wanting to cause any arguments, I think it is an exiting topic since we all have so much to choose from these days.
Christelle: Perhaps I worded things too strongly:
" Even the world's best harp players only nail it some of the time"
Maybe that's not fair to say. I think it's fair to say that overbends are more difficult to hit in terms of pitch and more difficult to articulate in terms of groove. Good players can hit them just fine most of the time but I think most players still don't hit them perfectly every time.
I don't like Carlos Del Junco's music. I like Jazz, I like hearing a little bit of dissonance or chaos in the middle of a musical frenzy. I just don't like his music. I like a lot of Jason Ricci's stuff. I like it when he stays locked into a groove. But I find that when he starts playing fast and fancy for the sake of playing fast and fancy, the groove suffers and I find it less convincing.
I think that most players who rely on overbends sometimes make the choice of using the overbend at the expense of the groove. It's not that the pitch is wrong and that they are hitting unexpected note, but that the articulation of the note is more clumsy. Perhaps it's just fine for most people, but I find it distracting.
I think that's Brendan Powers' point with the Powerbender - draw bends are more expressive than blow bends or overbends.
But that's just my opinion. I just don't think overbends are like the other notes on the diatonic harmonica.
As for your playing, I think you are a beautiful musician and I don't feel you have anything to prove. I doubt anyone looks upon your playing harp in a condescending way. I, personally, take you very seriously. But I still have my preferences and tastes.
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Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2011 4:42 AM
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Willspear
9 posts
Dec 15, 2011
5:18 AM
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I am intrigued by Brendan powers "power bender" tuning
And overblows when played well and used tastefully impress the hell out of me.
I feel privileged to be playing harp today so many takes on something so theoretically simple. I haven't played harmonica for all that long but it's incredibly inspiring the variety of possible play. I come from a jazz saxophone and guitar background and have played violin since I was in grade school. The shear fact that people with a mastery of harmonica have opened my eyes to the potential of a "toy" is amazing.
The harmonica when played by gifted individuals is every bit the instrument That the sax,trumpet, clarinet etc I have been listening to a lot of intense jazz as motivation for licks and the harp can take anything you throw at it when you add in the ob/od. Add in the fact it can play chords and you don't need circular breathing and it's portability and it really is just amazing
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harpdude61
1196 posts
Dec 15, 2011
5:22 AM
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Obvious some people do not understand the uses or how to play overbends (overblows and overdraws). I doubt you always recognize when you hear one.
IMHO overbends are the richest, most expressive notes on a diatonic harmonica.
In second position A.Pac (Alex Paclin) uses the 5 overblow bent up 1/2 step rather than 6 blow. He does this often because he can go either direction with the pitch of the note. Sounds great and most folks don't know he is playing an overbend. The 6 blow simply will not do what he does on the 5 ob bent up.
I can't speak for tongue blockers, but as a lip blocker once I learned to overbend, the tone and control on all note types (blow bends, draw bends, blow, draw,) became much better. Fact. Learning use-able overbends makes you a better player on everything else.
Adam calls me an advanced intermediate and I use overbends in most everything I play with my band. Wailing on the 6 ob in a slow blues when the solo goes to the IV chord often brings on a few cheers. You can play the minor third and bend into the blue third...same as you do on 3 hole draw.
Dialing in on the pitches of the 6 ob is easier to me then dialing in all pitches of the 3 draw.
Overbending is here to stay. I will say there are many many great players who choose not to use them or simply won't or can't learn the techniqe. I takes time and work.
I personally find overbends very cool.
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2011 5:24 AM
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colman
110 posts
Dec 15, 2011
5:36 AM
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if you are playing jazz,pop or any other style other than "low down blues"the use of chromatic scale of notes is necessary.blues is a modal music that only needs the blues scale,if you add other notes it becomes jazz-blues like, bebop ,with chord scale runs,etc."low down blues"is more a modal vocal tradition of music than western chromatic music.i`m sure little walter and alot other blues harp players would have incorporaded OB`s if they wanted to do more than BLUES.since harp players were doing it in the 1920`s etc. they had to know about "overblowing"but these dudes were playing the BLUES,root,flat third,fourth,flat five.five,flat seven & octave...this is all you need to play BLUES.add to it and it`s pop or jazz music. look at Albert King,he played" pretty" much the blues scale and that was it...yet he influnced more players with those six notes than 10 other players playing other scales.so OB if you are doing any style and enjoy it the harp isn`t the toy it use to be thought of.but "low down blues" can carry on with out OB`s
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HarpNinja
2006 posts
Dec 15, 2011
6:26 AM
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"I strongly disagree...At least in my case....
I had some valved Promasters and I had no problem getting those bends on any of the holes in any of the key harps. (I ripped those rattlin' bastards off!) But I have yet to make even the slightest progress in getting an overblow. (I never had any specially set-up harps.)" - gene
EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY! You had no problems with a valved harp set-up to play in that fashion. That would be damn hard to do had it not been optimized for valved playing.
So why would you assume to make progress overblowing with a harp not set-up to overblow??? It is hard because the harp is not set-up for it.
This is my whole point - most people who complain about overblows do so for very illogical reasons.
Just because I can't tongue block and bend the 3 draw down a semitone as well as I can when I pucker doesn't mean it can't be done really well. I read a lot of, "That is wrong because I can't do it myself", in these threads (not really pointing at @gene here by any means!).
I spend hours a week working on harmonicas for overbending. The more I do this the more I realize that they are EXACTLY like any other form of bending. More and more parallels get drawn and when I work on one, the other gets better too. Most people literally learn how to overbend by reversing their breath pattern on a bend.
I did a comb swap with harpwrench this last week. I decided to use the comb he sent me for a D Marine Band yesterday (man, do I love predrilled MB combs...15min and I had a fully working MB with screws!). OOTB, the harp had the new sealed MB comb.
The harp would not OB out of the box in any useable fashion. It was leaky, the 6ob rattled, and the overdraws were a mangled mess. No way I could use the 1 OB either. The blow bends were good (not great) and the 3 draw bends were not locked in how I like them (again good, but not great).
With the reedplates on the comb, I was able to gap the harp and check the profiles of the reeds in less than 15min (I know this because I only had 15min until I needed to start dinner). I was interrupted by a crying 3yr old during this time too.
By the time I started dinner, I had a harp that popped the 1, 4, and 5 obs at a professional level. The 6 was much better, but there is a little squeal if I really wail on the note (easily fixed, though). All the ODs are there, but - and this is why a good custom is important - they squeal. Again, not a difficult fix, but I didn't have time for it (so they will only be passing notes for now).
The 3 draw is mighty impressive. The blow bends are like butter - no embossing, tip scooping, chamfering, or whatever. I just gapped the harp and it was more than enough to make it a great bending harp and a great OB harp (ODs need some bench time).
So in about 30min (I haven't retuned it yet, but it sounds good) I had a fantastic harp to play that would exceed the needs of 90% of harmonica players.
Point 1: You have to have the right tool for the job.
Point 2: You have to now how to use it - my ability to OB made that harp easy to play just as much as the tweaks. If my technique sucked more, I would have needed more help from mods...same with other bends.
Point 3: Joe's new combs are really beautiful.
The best move I ever made (which was many years ago) was to get some really nice customs to learn on. The better I got with them, the easier it was to play harmonicas that weren't as optimized for bending. That and sheer bench time have gotten me to the point where I can play gapped Crossovers and be 90% satisfied. I concede that, depending on the key, it is hard for me to get really sustainable overdraws without doing more than just gapping. That does NOT mean it takes a long time to fix, just that I can't do it without more than a toothpick (I tend to assume that not everyone has quality tools specific for this work, so I tend to think in terms of practicality).
Point 4: With a screw driver and a toothpick you can set-up some really great harps if you start with the right product (Hohner hand-made harps). It may take more tools for other harps or needs.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2011 6:31 AM
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HarpNinja
2007 posts
Dec 15, 2011
6:34 AM
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I've added a vid on overblows to my queue of vids to make. I am a very average OB player when it comes to using them in my playing - I'd say my technique is really solid, though - and can illustrate a few of these points on camera.
FWIW, I did offer to do customizing seminars at several harmonica events recently and would gladly help people in person (maybe Skype?) with learning to do some of this stuff. I have a HD camera now, so I could just make a video, but I really really really am uncomfortable making stuff for YouTube.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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HarpNinja
2009 posts
Dec 15, 2011
7:23 AM
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OT, but someone brought up their desire for original material over technical mastery over cover material in this thread.
I agree that great original music is often missing here and we get a lot of technically challenging music, BUT I totally understand why. 1.) This is a harmonica forum, so we talk shop 2.) it is easier to get people to listen to cover material 3.) most people post for feedback on harmonica playing and not entire songs 4.) we are the people who "get" it...non-harmonica players don't care about things like OBs. Who else can we talk to about this stuff?
I am 100% guilty of using this and another harmonica list to essentially bounce ideas off of. At one time I kinda felt the need to share "successes", but realized they don't translate well or improve my harmonica playing. I am fairly content sharing problems or weak areas in order to gain insight. If I am going to share something I want people to enjoy or just check out, I would very intentionally share a cover so people would actually check it out. I would also share a good or demanding harmonica performance before a great band effort...if for the simple fact that this is a harmonica forum.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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HarpNinja
2010 posts
Dec 15, 2011
7:24 AM
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I don't like the number three, so I am adding a 4th post in a row just to not have three. I am going to shup up now.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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gene
986 posts
Dec 15, 2011
8:25 AM
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"...EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY! You had no problems with a valved harp set-up to play in that fashion. That would be damn hard to do had it not been optimized for valved playing.
So why would you assume to make progress overblowing with a harp not set-up to overblow??? It is hard because the harp is not set-up for it...."
I have a bad habit of trying to save space and time by assuming people will read between my lines. Let me expand on the what you quoted from me:
I have tried to gap my reeds closer for overblows. Still no luck. Is there something else I'm supposed to do to the harp? I don't know. But I do know that unless I'm just lucky with an OOTB harp, I'd have to either have skill and know-how about modifying the harp or pay someone to do it for me. Then if my harp(s) were optimized for overblows, It (they) would loose...something (I forgot what I read...They'd choke too easily?)
Being lazy :( and poor, the trade-off is not worth it to me, especially in light of the other comment I made about there still being plenty of territory left in the harp without overblows. I don't have anything against overblows; they're just not for me. Not worth the expense and effort.
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jim
1082 posts
Dec 15, 2011
8:30 AM
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My personal opinion on harmonica:
You can't really play them if you can't customize them and repair them.
You'd have top have a 24/7 customizer hotline if you can't do it yourself.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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gene
987 posts
Dec 15, 2011
8:53 AM
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I can do some very basic gapping. (Though I am having trouble getting my draw 3 right on a low F harp.)
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2011 8:53 AM
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harpdude61
1197 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:04 AM
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colman..." these dudes were playing the BLUES,root,flat third,fourth,flat five.five,flat seven & octave...this is all you need to play BLUES"
Agreed..so all you need is a six hole diatonic.
I play overbends and play zero jazz. 6 ob gives me the flat 3rd...7od and 10od give me the flat 5. It has nothing to do with jazz. I learned overbending to simply take the blues scale from bottom to top of the harmonica. Overbends are useful in any genre.
gene..don't get carried away with thinking harp set-up is most important. I can overbend on any stock GM by simply changing the gaps at the end of the reed. I have found $5 harps that have notes that overblow. Custom are better by far, but by the same token I know folks that have customs and still cannot overblow.
No one seems interested in my technique suggestions so I quit posting them.
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easyreeder
60 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:12 AM
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"You can't really play them if you can't customize them and repair them."
Tell that to Larry Adler. In his forward to Douglas Tate's book on harmonica maintenance he said, about Tate: "I envy him because he can do something I cannot do. He can repair a mouth organ."
Adler also confessed that even after reading the book he still couldn't fix his instruments (and that he in fact had no aptitude for mechanical work) and relied on Tate for repairs. Thus giving your third point some credence. But the harmonica is no different than other instruments in this regard: the musically talented will be able to play them and the mechanically talented will be able to make them play beautifully. But you can certainly do one without being able to do the other.
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chromaticblues
1091 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:31 AM
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Yeah Gene its a combination of things. When anyone is learning to overblow (no matter how good you are). Its esier to get it on a custom harp that is set up for overblows. Once you get it and do it for a couple years or so. A special set up harp is not needed to play overblows! A well set up harp without any embossing or any other stuff can be used to play overblows. The thing that I have found is bending them is different. I can not bend them very well unless a harp is embossed alot! I don't like the tone of embossed harps so I just don't bother trying anymore, BUT IF I CAN PLAY OVERBLOWS WITH GOOD INTONATION ON STOCK HARPS then anyone can! It just takes alot of practice.
If anything overblows will become more popular, because people are always trying emulate great harp players. Well listen to Todd Parrot bend OB's. Thats pretty cool! How can anyone think that technique is going to go away?
All in all I don't obsess about it because I like to play the chromatic also. One thing I don't do that some people make the mistake of doing. I don't use the chromatic in place of the diatonic because something is just to hard to play with the diatonic.
Its going to be different for everyone. If you don't like OB's then don't do it. If you don't like chromatics then don't play them. Do what ever you like and just keep trying to expand on what you know/can do.
I'll be the first to admitt learning to play OB's so that it was musical took awhile. So I can see why many harp players bash OB's. Just to play devil's advocate alittle. Go to youtube and listen to all the videos of people playing OB's. There is some real crap out there. People that can't play them and are doing a little research find this stuff and think; what the hell is that. Not everyone knows where to look! There is alot of bad Harmonica playing on youtube.
So I can see why this attitude is out there. Is it correct? NO but they don't know!
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timeistight
267 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:35 AM
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" these dudes were playing the BLUES,root,flat third,fourth,flat five.five,flat seven & octave...this is all you need to play BLUES"
Horse pucky! Isn't Walter Horton's "Easy" blues? How about "Juke"? You need the major third and the sixth to play either of these tunes.
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HarpNinja
2012 posts
Dec 15, 2011
9:49 AM
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" these dudes were playing the BLUES,root,flat third,fourth,flat five.five,flat seven & octave...this is all you need to play BLUES"
6OB=Flat 3rd in 2nd position
10OD=Flat 5th in 2nd position
5OB=Major 7th in 2nd position, which is used all the time in the West Coast style of playing when playing in a key diatonic to the harmony of a blues arrangement
The 4OB may isn't useful when viewing blues as a modal type of music, but with any harmony, the 4-6OB's are THE blue notes in first position.
But if the notion of great blues harmonica music is confided to only using the one blues scale relative to the key of the song, then the issue here is much larger than to OB or not to OB...especially on a site called Modern Blues Harmonica.
IMO, three hours of the same scale over every song = boring and unimpressive
I love that Juke was already brought up. Good luck playing that with just the blues scale.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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chromaticblues
1092 posts
Dec 15, 2011
11:08 AM
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@easyreeder
I agree with you. What Jim said is to vague. I'm not saying Jim is wrong. because I know what he meant. It just isn't 100% correct. The more you know about making your harmonicas work better the better you will get. It doesn't matter who you are! That goes for everyone! I'm not saying you need to know how to emboss the slots and chamfering and all that crap!
Making your harp air tight and setting the reeds correctly makes every part/technique of playing easier, less airy and I believe your tone is better because your more relaxed and not battling with the harp.
Oh and blues isn't about what notes you play. It's how you play them. There are a bunch of notes on the harp. Why not learn to play them all?
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