SonnyD4885
147 posts
Oct 05, 2011
5:38 AM
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what harmonica solo do you have down note for note
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eebadeeb
21 posts
Oct 05, 2011
5:54 AM
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I know that many people on the forum complain about hearing note for note covers of the classic favorites but I think it is good lick-learning experience and although I like to improvise I can't imagine myself making any improvements on these, so daily I play these complete songs note for note as best I can copy all intonations, inflections, subtleties from my favorite cuts; Nutpopper, Whammer Jammer, Miltea's Blues Harp (not quite full speed), Juke, BW's Shuffle and Shanty Song solo.
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SonnyD4885
148 posts
Oct 05, 2011
7:34 AM
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shanty is a good song i think johnath play on a c harp
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HawkeyeKane
245 posts
Oct 05, 2011
7:39 AM
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I'm not good at doing note for note, but I ALMOST have Whammer Jammer down, and I'm gonna work on Christo Redemptor next. I know, I know, Christo is never played the same way twice, but I have a couple favorite versions of it. I do have Boys from Oklahoma down...course that's like saying I have brushing my teeth down. LOL
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Hawkeye Kane
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Michael Rubin
271 posts
Oct 05, 2011
9:09 AM
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I do not have anything note for note anymore, but I definitely studied note for note for hundreds of solos and teach it. All my students learn the first 12 bars of Scratch My Back, Help Me, Everything's going to be allright, Born in Chicago, Little Rain (Jimmy Reed), the first 12 bars of Kim Wilson's solo in track nine of Smokin' Joint , I think it's Telephone Blues, and the solo in Eric Clapton's From the Cradle's Hoochie Coochie Man featuring Portnoy.That gives you 4 cross harp solos in holes 1 thru 6, a first position low end solo, a first position high end solo and a third position solo.
You know that saying "it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at anything?" I believe that just being able to play the solo note for note is not enough, you need to play it in time and up to speed so you can play along with the recording. Once you can do that, learn 10 cross harp solos in holes 1 thru 6, 10 first position low end solos, 10 first position high note solos, 10 3rd position solos and 10 3rd position chromatic solos. By the time you have done that, I think you would be a pro level harp player.
I will say learning a harp instrumental will also teach you a lot. My favorites when I was going through this process were Musselwhite's Harping on a Riff (which is really George Smith influenced) and Little Walter's Off the Wall.
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Steamrollin Stan
73 posts
Oct 05, 2011
9:29 AM
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O'suzanna, row row da boat, "doh ray me far so lah tee doh" Twinlke twinkle, Chuggin when i'm feelin like a steam train.
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The Iceman
120 posts
Oct 05, 2011
10:29 AM
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Whammer Jammer...made me real hot stuff in the 70"s in my top 40 band.
Also, Blues in a Dream by Jerry Portnoy. Have used it to great effect as a teaching tool to students.
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The Iceman
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bluzlvr
441 posts
Oct 05, 2011
1:24 PM
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I'm always working on Little Walter's "Blues With a Feeling solo. One of my all time favorites.
"Guess what! I got a fever. And the only prescription is ... more cowbell!"
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boris_plotnikov
641 posts
Oct 05, 2011
2:21 PM
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About 6-7 years ago I learned some solos from Richard Hunter's Jazz Harp, one was sax solo transcribed for harmonica, the second one was Stevie Wonder's solo for chromatic. I don't believ that playing anything note for note is really useful. Understanding of fundamentals and developing own style is more important, at least for me.
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Tuckster
892 posts
Oct 05, 2011
3:20 PM
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I don't have too many. I also don't quite do them note for note,but I try to come close. J.Geil's "Pack Fair & Square- I couldn't improve on what Magic Dick does. Also 2 Lester Butler/Red Devils covers of "Automatic" & "Wish You Would".
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garry
124 posts
Oct 05, 2011
8:22 PM
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not quite identical, as I'm playing harp vs. fingerstyle guitar, but I've been working on "Embryonic Journey" by Hot Tuna, and it's in pretty good shape.
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isaacullah
1614 posts
Oct 05, 2011
8:28 PM
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Every one I play. ;)
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nacoran
4706 posts
Oct 05, 2011
9:25 PM
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We don't play a lot of covers and the ones we do play don't tend to be songs that are originally harp songs. I've played 'Knockin' on Heaven's' door but not like Dylan.
I can play 'Love Me Do' (although I guess John used a chrom.) I play lots of folk tunes and songs when I'm just playing for myself, but then I'm usually playing melody. I can play the melodies for just about any children's song or Christmas number, and the melodies for a ton of Beatles (and slightly embarrassingly, Journey tunes). I can copy the guitar part for 'The Final Countdown'.
I really can't play many harp songs the way they are 'supposed' to be played though.
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blueswannabe
113 posts
Oct 06, 2011
6:30 AM
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@ Michael Rubin, Mike I think you just found your next book.
10-10-10-10-10-10,
What 1st position harp solos would you recommend for studying?
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hvyj
1831 posts
Oct 06, 2011
6:48 AM
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I've never learned a harp solo note for note. I don't even learn my own solos note for note because I never play the same solo the same way every time. I know a lot of heads and hooks note for note because if those passages aren't played accurately I'm not playing the tune correctly.
i suppose learning other players' solos note for note is not a bad way to learn technique. i have occasionally copped certain licks from recorded solos because I thought they sounded cool and, of course, I've picked up ideas from recorded solos. I learned the organ solo to "Good Lovin'" note for note because a bandleader told me I had to play it note for note because we don't have a keyboard player and the solo is such an integral part of that song. But I've never learned any harmonica solos note for note. Should I? I mean, the way I look at it is somebody else, probably better than me, has already played that, so what's the point of my learning to play the same thing?
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The Iceman
121 posts
Oct 06, 2011
6:51 AM
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My first inspiration was live version of "Hush Hush" by Siegel/Schwall. Then I learned "Harpin' on a Riff" by Charlie Musselwhite.
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The Iceman
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SonnyD4885
150 posts
Oct 06, 2011
7:06 AM
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has anyone try mystery train to learn?
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groyster1
1472 posts
Oct 06, 2011
7:29 AM
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@hvyj
"somebody else has already played that,so whats the point of learning to play the same thing"-i agree all the way I taught myself to play amazing grace probably 30 years ago,but after hearing terry mcmillan play it,no way can I come anywhere close
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Michael Rubin
274 posts
Oct 06, 2011
8:53 AM
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Blues wannabe
For the high end, I recommend Jimmy Reed's Little Rain, Honest I do and pretty much any Reed high end solo. I alos recommend Big Walter Horton's Trouble in Mind and La Cucaracha, both of which include low end 1st position. Although it only has a couple of high end licks, Big Walter's Hard Hearted Woman is a great 1st pos low end solo, as is Portnoy's Hoochie Coochie Man as I mentioned above. Trust My Baby by Rice Miller is a great one.
Hvyj: Should you? I think that learning solos note for note can teach you about technique, volume dynamics, phrasing and it shows how theory can be put into action as well as how players may break theory rules and make it work.
I think what it really comes down to is do you want to play traditional blues, or whichever type of music you want to play, in a very traditional fashion. I have been working on my own style forever, but sometimes when I do a performance or a recording, the bandleader wants me to play in another style. By studying many styles note for note, I am more likely able to satisfy that bandleader.
There is a great quote by Portnoy about this where is loosely says there are two kinds of harp players, one who has studied many solos note for note and one who hasn't. He says the one who hasn't may be playing his own music, but it is not any kind of music Portnoy would want to listen to.
I am definitely not as dogmatic as that, and actually spent my first four years of playing actively resisting studying others note for note. Then I got very deep into it for a few years.
Right now I am deep into studying jazz on the bass harp, harmonetta and chromatic. I figure if I can understand what the bass player, rhythm chord player and melody player are doing I will have a greater understanding. However, my heart really isn't in jazz like it is blues and rock.
When I went to SPAH this year I had to admit that Steve Guyger, Dennis Gruenling and Ronnie Shellist, were much stronger at blues than I was. I knew that about the first two, but I taught Ronnie how to bend and I have been listening to Ronnie progress every year of our lives and this was the first time that it became really clear to me how he was a lot better than I was at traditional blues. It made me want to study a bunch of solos note for note. However, I have not gotten off my behind to do it. Jazz is still taking precedent right now. I have to follow my obsession, but a little birdie keeps whispering in my ear to get back to blues.
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HarpNinja
1750 posts
Oct 06, 2011
8:58 AM
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I learn the occassional lick note for note and then immediately embellish on it. I started out learning David Barrett's Masters of the Chicago Blues book note for note. At one time, I could play along with over half the CD...that was 8 years ago.
I tried the same thing with the Four tab book, but gave up after learning some of the intros to songs - Hook, Run Around, etc...way too hard to learn from a tab book.
I get bored playing a song of any real length note for note.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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7LimitJI
552 posts
Oct 06, 2011
9:29 AM
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I know loads, by Rod Piazza,William Clarke,
Gary Primich,Red Devils,Gary Smith, Rick Estrin, SB Williamson, Paul Lamb, Big and Little Walter.
I play/gig them like that until I know them without having to think. How long that takes can vary. Obviously if I forget, then I improvise.
I've found if the band are on it, I fall into playing the solo as I've learnt them.
If the groove/mood changes I go into improvising to suit how it feels on the night.
I like learning like this as I never get bored and always have something challenging to learn.
Learning the notes is only the start. Its the subtle things that these great players do that is the really difficult part.Shaping notes,timing and altering phrases.
I can, and have improvised a lot, but get bored quite quickly.But that depends a lot on the quality of the musicians I'm playing with.
In saying that, I'm really enjoying posting on Harmonica Boogie with the backing tracks there.
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Last Edited by on Oct 06, 2011 9:30 AM
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The Iceman
122 posts
Oct 06, 2011
9:45 AM
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oh yeah, I made a good attempt at "Train Time" by Cream. pretty cool tune.
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The Iceman
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hvyj
1832 posts
Oct 06, 2011
11:16 AM
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"There is a great quote by Portnoy about this where is loosely says there are two kinds of harp players, one who has studied many solos note for note and one who hasn't. He says the one who hasn't may be playing his own music, but it is not any kind of music Portnoy would want to listen to.'
Portnoy is an excellent harp player. But I don't find his stuff interesting or inspiring to listen to. Why? As great as he plays, I've never heard him play anything that sounded remotely original or that didn't sound like something I've heard before. He's a very skilled player, though, without question.
You know, one of the best compliments I ever got was a comment I overheard a multi-insrumentalist/songwriter make about me to his bass player while I was sitting in with their band playing on some of the multi-instrumentalist's original tunes for the first time. He turned to the bass player and said "I love hearing what he comes up with to play on my stuff." These guys are both college educated musicians, so that made me feel pretty good. Of course, I never played any of my solos exactly the same way on those same tunes the next time I sat with those guys. If you play the same thing the same way more than once, it's not really a solo as far as I'm concerned. The solos I play are usually an expression of how i feel at the time, so if I already did it that way once, it seems artificial if I play it exactly the same way again later. i mean, I may recycle some ideas that work particularly well, but never the entire solo. I guess that's why i can't relate to learning other players' solos note-for-note. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by on Oct 06, 2011 11:29 AM
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Michael Rubin
275 posts
Oct 06, 2011
12:37 PM
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Hvyj:
In my opinion, studying note for note is not so you would play that solo in a live situation. I have never done that. I think certain bands benefit from having a solo with a more rigid structure, slightly altering timing and dynamics while keeping close to the same notes, other bands benefit from playing something different every time.
Studying note for note is to give you a sense of how the masters approached solos. Hopefully it strengthens your own methods.
I used to hate Portnoy. Too studied, I thought, not enough feeling. Then I guess I got older, because now his work seems to have incredible depth of feeling. I think my sense of feeling has changed. Check out his CD In the Blue Room (I think that is what it's called) anyway, that was the wake up call for me. I agree that he is not the most original player, he is very traditional.
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tmf714
822 posts
Oct 06, 2011
12:50 PM
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"Down in tne Mood Room" is Jerrys CD-"Doodlin'" by Horace Silver is one of my favorites from that disc. 5 cuts on that disc are originals by Jerry. I was able to sit in while Dennis Gruenling interviewed Jerry at Amandas Rollercoaster in Phoenix last year-he imparted to us about sharing a bus ride seated next to Cab Calloway in Paris-Jerry was and still is a big fan of Louis Armstrong,Cab Calloway and Horace Silver.
As far as learning note for note-it expands your vocabulary on the intrument if anything.
I had the complete "Full House" by J. Geils mastered in my first year of playing full time-I was twenty years old at the time.
Last Edited by on Oct 06, 2011 12:56 PM
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tmf714
823 posts
Oct 06, 2011
1:29 PM
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I would also like to plug Jerrys new website " Harp Junction"- http://harpjunction.com/ where Jerry posts weekly videos,including a tour of the "Mood Room",imparts his wisdom,and gives lessons.
There are jams tracks there,as well as a forum. Tastefully done by one of the top blues harmonica players out there today.
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hvyj
1833 posts
Oct 06, 2011
2:43 PM
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@Michael Rubin: Yeah, copying solos is certainly an effective way to learn technique. Maybe I'm just too lazy to do it.
I've listened to "In the Mood Room." JP's a great player, but, as you say, not terribly original.
As far as bands go, the musicians i regularly work with never even play the same TUNE exactly the same way twice, let alone the same solos. It's a quite deliberate choice by these guys, so we're all pretty compatible in that respect. But, as you say, different bands benefit from different approaches.
Last Edited by on Oct 06, 2011 2:49 PM
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12gagedan
128 posts
Oct 07, 2011
4:11 PM
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I spent many many hours playing along with CD's. I've learned a ton of solos on harp, but I've never even tried to do a note-for-note solo in live performance. I guess I'm chiming in to agree with Mr. Rubin.
I do like to quote solos, though. I think it's a cool way to nod to the masters.
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blueswannabe
114 posts
Oct 07, 2011
6:42 PM
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I too have learned solos pretty much note for note but during execution invariably end up doing it differently. Learning note for note is, in my opinion, a great education but I do agree that in the end you want to sound like yourself. I learned a couple Gussow solos in Reverse the Deal that he played at HCH with Mr. Perry. Once I broke it down, I discovered it's simplicity and beauty and how well it executed with the song. That's the advantage of studying note for note.
@Mike Rubin. Thanks.
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boris_plotnikov
643 posts
Oct 08, 2011
12:22 AM
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Michael Rubin
It seems, that Portnoy will not listen for me. I will not listen for him too (with all respects to his playing). Great playing, but nothing new in his playing. I'd better listen to Little Walter as originator of the style, his playing was completely new to his time or Adam Gussow with his original style or of course Jason Ricci
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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The Iceman
126 posts
Oct 08, 2011
5:54 AM
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Learning a solo note by note is like all the instructions given to you when you learn, for example, golf swings. In a golf swing, your weight is on this leg at this moment, arm held straight (don't bend elbow), keep your head down and eye on the ball, follow through, don't hold back, etc etc etc.
It feels awkward as hell to try to remember all the little instructions and movements from moment from moment. However, when you come out the other end and learn to forget the instructions and naturally swing the club, your body will automatically do all those little things that were broken down and explained.
Same with memorizing a solo note for note. It is awkward at first until it is absorbed, then you let go of the thought and do it. My favorite experience used to be - THAT SOLO MEMORIZED NOTE FOR NOTE = A CHAIN OF PEARLS ON A STRING. In recreating it, so often that chain would break in the middle and all the pearls (notes) would fall off the string and bounce all over the floor. Then watcha gonna do, huh? Why, you have to pick a note and follow it to the next one, throwing that memorized idea right out the window and seeing what you are made of....
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The Iceman
Last Edited by on Oct 08, 2011 5:56 AM
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tmf714
826 posts
Oct 08, 2011
7:32 AM
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Mother In Law Blues-Jerry Portnoy-
A classic from Junior Parker. I play it as closely as I can to the original. There’s great learning value in trying to replicate the originals. It forces you to listen closely, helps train your ear, and helps you to learn the nuances of attack and phrasing contained in the piece that you can use in other settings.
Go To Jerry's Weekly Video
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Ant138
1118 posts
Oct 08, 2011
11:26 PM
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I have found it really helpfull to learn songs note for note.
I think it helps alot with focus and it also feels like your progressing on the instrument.
Once you have learnt alot from the masters then you can build on that and i think that in itself brings out your own style of playing.
It does help if you spend the time and put the effort in to learn something all the way through:o)
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Mojokane
460 posts
Oct 09, 2011
3:30 PM
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my feeling, too... Ant138...
There are subtle pitfalls of learning note for note styles. But for me, the benefits outweigh the cons. The truth is, learning to do a song all the way through, is as important as learning the riffs and comp lines.
As a intermediate player fronting my own band on a casual basis, I find my inability to remember the form of a song, my number one obstacle. Since I am totally ear taught.
Which sets the players back a bit, and frustrates our progress.
They are gracious enough to learn my stuff, but the getter is, I need to know it, too. And studying the basics of each song (vers, solo, chorus etc..) is now in the forefront of my progress as a band leader.
I can fool some of the people some of the time, eh?
oh...stuff I dig doing note for note...
- Born In Chicago
- Steady
- Help Me(Rod Piazza's version)
- Blues With A Feelin (PB's)
took years n years to learn note for note.
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2011 3:35 PM
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Joe_L
1511 posts
Oct 09, 2011
8:48 PM
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If you lined up ten harp players along with Jerry Portnoy and had them play something like Got My Mojo Working, I could pick out Jerry Portnoy every time. I think he has a unique sound and a very distinctive tone. I've always enjoyed listening to his work with Muddy Waters and some of his post Muddy efforts.
I really enjoyed his work with the Legendary Blues Band. I thought his instrumental tunes from those albums were quite good.
I learned a couple of those tunes note for note back in the 80's. Back then, I used to disassemble all sorts of tunes and try to capture them note for note and tone for tone. I don't know how successful I was, but I had a lot of fun trying to do it.
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Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2011 8:50 PM
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5F6H
888 posts
Oct 10, 2011
3:54 AM
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"I really enjoyed his work with the Legendary Blues Band. I thought his instrumental tunes from those albums were quite good. I learned a couple of those tunes note for note back in the 80's."
Ha ha, you can't beat a good Snakeskin Strut!
As TMF714 stated Jerry's a good songwriter too, he definitely has his own voice on the harp, if you are familiar with his work it's pretty apparent.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
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