Very nice job on these videos, man! I always like to see how others do these things--I especially liked your flat sanding block with the leveling screws--but I couldn't get how you attach the comb to the block--is it glued on?
The trick with the paper on the reeds when sanding the plate was very good.
I noticed you didn't do any reed profiling or embossing--is that the subject of another set of videos?
Thanks for posting this--I enjoyed it. . . ----------
I really do appreciate the effort to make these. I'm sure it'll be a lot easier to just post a link instead of the 10 paragraphs it takes to answer my questions. Speaking of : I thought you used mineral oil? How useful is the sonic cleaner? I don't have one -yet. I assume you sand after varnish -yes?
Oldwailer: I use double-sided tape to keep the comb from moving around on that block. I need to dirty it up a little when I put on a fresh piece since it makes taking off the comb really hard otherwise. I have been wanting to get around to adding two little blocks of wood, one block held with a screw with a large enough clearance so that I could secure the comb in between them and then tighten the crew to hold it in place - that would last forever. As it is, I need to change the double stick tape every four or five combs...
I mention that I need to emboss old harps but no, I didn't show it. I don't do anything special. I use the UST, and Mike Fugazzi made a clear video on that just a few weeks ago. The only thing here is that I find that embossing removes "crud" from the slots - you can feel it crunch the first few times on many (not all) of the slots and then it gets smooth. I wipe the tip of the UST and there is some dust. It's different than embossing a new harp. And I think the embossing is more to clean the slots than for making the tolerances better.
Mike Fugazzi also made a video on reed profiling and that's pretty much what I do (or try to do...).
Littoral: I only use mineral oil for embossing. I never used oil on a comb - I'm afraid it would constantly leave a residue. I think you need to soak the comb for a long while and I don't want to wait that long! As well, the bacteria is certainly dead, but spores may live in the wood. I think it's safer to sand it off and then cover it with a varnish rather than soak.
The ultrasonic cleaner is very useful. It really makes the metal shine. I got that one for 20 dollars and I probably would have to work a long time to clean the metal bits without it and I probably would never do as good a job. An ultrasonic cleaner is used for cleaning jewelry and can get debris out of very very small crevices - something you can't do by hand.
And no, I do not sand after I finish. I found that you absolutely need to sand after you spray or paint on a varnish but I polish it in. I work it into the wood so that bumps can't form. It's the most effective and fastest way I have found.
If I had a brand-new comb that didn't have any swelling problem, I would not even seal that surface. I would just leave it sanded.
Very good videos, so thanks for those, enjoyed watching them.
However, something occured to me (which has probably been written about a hundred times before on here, but please be patient with me!), and that is...
Surely the POINT of a wooden comb, is that it IS porous, and can BREATH, and it is THIS, which gives a wooden-combed harp its distintive tone?
By waterproofing it, aren't you effectively turning it into a plastic-combed harp?
I come from the guitar world, where it is a recognised phenomena that the thinner and more porous a coating a guitar has, the better, for tone.
Thats why a lot of guitars nowdays have a wax-oiled, or gun-oiled, finish, or companies like Gibson stick with a nitro-dellulose finish which is time-consuming to apply, but is very thin and can "breath".
I think it has been proven, in a blind test, that a listener cannot tell the difference between a wood comb, a sealed wood comb, a plastic comb, or a styrofoam or a concrete comb.
I know the studies are not acceptable to some, but, as the late great Buddha said several times here on this forum, "a harmonica reed doesn't have enough mass to create vibrations in the comb material." (That was a paraphrase from memory and is not to be taken as a direct quote and I will disavow any knowledge of it once this is posted).
This, I believe, would mean that a guitar string, fixed as it is on both ends to the wood, is not similar to a harmonica reed, which is fixed only on one end as to a piece of brass that is, in turn, fixed to a hunk of wood and is perhaps 100's of times shorter. Kind of like comparing a good piss in the wind to the flow of the Mississippi river.
This has been discussed ad nauseum here on the forum, but you can still think your wood comb is superior if you want to and if you think pear wood is better, then it is--for you ;-) . . . ----------
@arzajac: Thanks for the vids! Would you be so kind as to reveal the #'s for the tap, screws (the longer ones used as cover supports as well) and nuts you use, and also the supplier? I would really like to order up some supplies and revamp and seal some of my Marine Bands!
Selkentblues. First off, when dealing with a disgusting comb like that, I don't think there is any choice but to sand and varnish it.
Secondly, you are rude. It actually *has* been studied. Look up Brendan Power's study at SPAH last year. But whether you are right or wrong, it's still rude to insult someone. Not to mention how polite Oldwailer's comments were in regards to disagreeing with your opinion.
Matzen: I use M2 10mm for everything. I have some 12mm screws that sometimes are used to bolster up a coverplate here and there but most of the time it's just 10mm everywhere. Three screws for the comb, two for the coverplates along with two nuts. Nuts are expensive, so in the long run, buying a tap is cheaper than using three more nuts for the reedplates.
@arzajac: I did a little research and looked though a MicroMark catalog. I was guessing that you are using 0-80 x 3/8" screws for the reed plates (0-80 x 1/2" screws for the reedplate / cover support), and the same 0-80 X 3/8" with nuts to attach the covers? I guess I was wrong! Thanks much for the links 'cuz It looks like the metric screws and nuts in your links are cheaper than the price of the ones I listed above though MicroMark! Maybe it's 'cuz the MicroMark stuff is brass? I like the stainless steel more anyway! Also, thanks for the tap tip! I'll pick one up!
So is it: M2 x .4 x 10 M2 x .4 x 12 and M2 x .4mm for the nuts?
First off, Arzajac, I learned a lot from watching these videos. You've clearly spent a fair amount of time figuring out the best approach to create the best final product. Very well thought out. Second, you get an amazing final result on those reed plates! I have a few used harps I bought but they've been sitting since I didn't know the best way to approach cleaning them. I tried, but they still looked all scuzzy.
I prefer nuts to tapping a reed plate only because brass is so soft and you can easily accidentally strip the threads. Of course if you did accidentally do that you can go back and drill and add nuts. But I figure you may just start with nuts. Just dont over tighten. And of course there are many many ways to skin a cat. Arzajac has a very good well thought out method.
Thanks for posting these. Makes me want to start up again with some MB's I have laying around that need some attention.
Admin hat on: Selkent, watch it. Treat people with respect, even if you disagree with them.
Admin hat off:
As for the debate over comb material, I've read the article about the blind test, and from my own experience I'm pretty convinced combs don't make a difference to the sound, at least as long as they are fulfilling their duties when it comes to keeping things airtight.
Why?
I suspect it's because harmonicas (and other free reed instruments) produce sound very differently than other musical instrument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerophone
Think of a flute. Think of a flute as a big giant hallway with air blowing down it. If a constant stream of air goes down the hallway the air vibrates at a frequency based on the length (and width) of the hallway, creating a specific pitch. A drum works largely the same way, except that instead of blowing a steady stream of air it starts the vibration with a concussive force. The net result is similar though. The pitch is still determined by the length and width of the hallway on the other side of the drum head.
Guitars work, actually, similarly to drums. Instead of blowing on them, you hit (pluck, strum, rub, whatever you are doing at that time) and that creates a vibration in the air. Strings don't make particularly loud noises though. If you play a solid body electric without plugging it in you'll never be more than just background noise compared to other instruments... but, there is a clever trick... the sounding box, which takes a the vibrations and focuses there energy, turning a higher percentage of it into usable sound.
Free reeds work in an entirely different way. Look in one of the holes. What do you think the frequency of that hole is? Compare it to a flute or a tin whistle. If you had a flute or tin whistle that short, what would the pitch be? In would be in dog whistler range.
That's because free reeds aren't a hallway, they are a door, one of those pin hinged doors that swings both ways. That wind that is going down the hallway isn't going down a hallway. It's stopping and starting over and over again because someone is opening and closing the door really fast, interrupting the airflow. The size of the door (reed) matters. The size of the door frame matters (slot). What the wall the door is mounted too? That air is either going out the back of the harp or back into you. You are the hallway. How you shape your airways effects the tone a lot. Reeds vibrate at a frequency based on their size, weight, etc. They can also be influenced by the air hitting them. Think of the person as a two way fan. If the fan is pulsing at a different frequency than the frequency the door is opening and closing you'll create a different frequencies of the puffs of air that get through, a different sound, and be able to bend. (Note that when I'm talking about different frequency with your breathing I'm not talking about pulsing your breath, I'm talking about the underlying frequency of your air chamber, like on a flute.
I suspect that in a way draw notes are more expressive because that door is blowing into a hallway (you) and it's getting to add tones from you. Coating the inside of your respiratory system with metal or wood or plastic, kind of impractical, would probably produce all sorts of different sounds on draw notes. Putting a megaphone or cone on the end of the harmonica would create a hallway on the other side that could help you shape the noise. Covers are like a little front porch. They change the tone a bit, particularly depending on how open or closed they are.
That wall the door is on? Well, it doesn't do all that much as long as it's sturdy and doesn't let air spill through in places other than the door.
I seem to be struggling with an overabundance of negative opinions concerning selkentblues--
Notice how I rise above it all, undamaged by the rude and nonsensical rantings of the waves--I am the old duck--the waters of opinions cannot harm me. I am the rock. . . ----------
When you sand the draw plate, do you straighten it first or leave the curve in? I straighten mine a bit. Also, I've been using bulls-eye shellac on the inside of the tines aka the MB deluxe. 2 or 3 coats then flat sanding them, leaving the top and bottom naked like original. Haven't had one swell but I play dryer than I used to. Very informative post as usual. selkentblues: I think arzajac and others are being very kind to you. Personally, I think your a pompous ass that likes to hear their own voice. Most of these folks forgot more than I'm going to learn so I try to be as courteous to the "old fellas" as I can. Obviously since you know everything, that doesn't apply to you.
Admin, thanks. The comb study was quite an event. In the end the design had some questions but my take was that the results were valid. Comb material made no significant difference. Note: science is my profession and I raised plenty of skepticism throughout the comb study.
Matzen: I missed your post... Yes, 0.4 is the thread. 10mm are just fine as bolsters. The 12mm ones are often too long. Sometimes not.
zipperhead: I don't think it makes a difference. And every time I tried to take the curve out, I was afraid I would apply too much force and kink it. So I stopped and have not noticed a difference in the end-result.
@arzajac: Sorry for all of the questions, but by "bolster" do you mean a support as in the the screws supporting the covers? Also, have you ever drilled out a new hole and stuck a screw in the middle of the front of the harp (through one of the tines)? Seems to me that this would make an extra good seal?
Yes, bolster may not be the best word. Support the coverplates to prevent them from being crushed in.
As for an extra screw, I think that flatness is the answer. If the surfaces are flat, then you don't even need a screw to keep it airtight. If a harp isn't airtight, I would start over with sanding the comb and reedplate before thinking of adding an extra screw.
The first time I ever properly sanded a comb I had gone back over and over - I think it measured less than 2/3 of the normal thickness by the time I was done and took me three or four tries over a week. But when I finally got it and assembled it I was floored by the sound I got from it! The tone and the volume could not compare with any other harp I had. I wanted all my harps to sound like that...
I think that motivated me to find more cheap harps and work on them to see if I could get the same result.
The same goes for what I have learned about gapping, profiling, tuning and embossing. There has been just enough information out there to keep me interested in getting better and better results.
I really appreciate the hints that the experienced people here on the forum have been leaving.
@nacoran: I think you hit the nail on the head. With a guitar, the wood box is the resonator, so the material it's made out of matters. With a woodwind, the tube is the resonator, so the material that it's made out of matters. With harmonica YOU are the resonator, so what makes the MOST difference to the tone is YOUR TECHNIQUE. Bigger tone comes not from enhanced materials, but from enhanced posture, embouchure, and openness. I think that the comb-material debate has been the biggest wild goose chase that the modern harmonica world has ever seen. It's a red herring. IMO, if you are looking for the ONE material element of a harmonica that might actually audibly affect it's tone (other than stuff to do with the reeds), I think it's the cover plate material/thickness/design that you ought to be looking at. Combs matter only in that they be flat, water resistant, and comfortable. If you look at the functional aspects what most aftermarket combs do to your harp, it's just those three things. The rest is simply a matter of improved aesthetics. I'd really like to see some of the guys who make custom combs start making custom cover plates, or at least ways to retrofit all the different brand/model coverplates to various popular harmonica models. I think that'd be really cool.
EDIT: Just wanted to add a "kudos" to arzajack for making these excellent videos! The more we share, the more we all learn as a community. The more we learn as a community, the better we all become! Cheers!
This is what I'm looking forward to : FLAT "But when I finally got it and assembled it I was floored by the sound I got from it! The tone and the volume could not compare with any other harp I had. I wanted all my harps to sound like that...".
" I think it's the cover plate material/thickness/design that you ought to be looking at. Combs matter only in that they be flat, water resistant, and comfortable."- Isaac
And don't forget pretty. After market combs HAVE to be pretty. :)
This is a a good thread, and is now unlocked. Selkentblues is no longer a member of this forum, and his offensive comments have been removed. Please continue on with the topic. Play nice, y'all... ---------- Todd L. Greene
First - thanks to arzajac for an exceptional job. Very well done. You can probably see why I like to work with Golden Melodies and Crossovers, lol.
Second - thanks to Todd for doing the right thing with this thread. This should be top priority YouTube'ing for those looking to work on getting MB's started. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
great work arzajac! i like the paper idea too. since i wet sand it never occured to me to use paper as support.
one little thing i'd like chime in with.
when drilling, use a real drill press like arzajac is using. if you try a drill press stand w/ dremel attachment your bit may tend to 'walk'. drilling slightly off center (even a hair) will totally throw your screw/plate/comb alignment out the window.
again, nice work arzajac! ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
MP "When drilling, use a real drill press like arzajac is using. if you try a drill press stand w/ dremel attachment your bit may tend to 'walk'. drilling slightly off center (even a hair) will totally throw your screw/plate/comb alignment out the window." I'm having that problem. I don't think I'm quite out the window though. I just tried to set up 2 (of ~100) to see if I'd get it right. Mostly. I hadn't planned to get a drill stand much less a press. I used a hand drill in a vise. Arzajac gave some credence to a little play to line up as needed. Here's hoping that's a good thing. I know, no way. But if gotta buy a drill press WTF! Combs drying now...
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2011 3:40 AM
7o3: That's a good question - I wouldn't have thought to mention it. The instructions for the ultrasonic cleaner say to just use water. It also says that a drop of dishwashing soap can be added to slightly improve performance.
Although it works fine with water, if anyone knows of a better solution to use in a machine like this, please tell me.
One thing about the UC, it comes with a plastic rack to hold things straight. Apparently that plastic gets in the way of the ultrasonic waves and decreases performance. I tried it and it's true. I got rid of it.
Thanks for the response! Now armed with a little knowledge I've found a few old pre MS Blues Harps and and have been checking out USC's on Amazon.com. I only asked because when I was looking at them they said "people who bought this product also bought this" wasn't sure if the solution was recommended by harmonica players or not.
@arzajac: There is such a thing as ultrasonic cleaner solution. Here's a post that Kinya (The Harp Smith) made a while back on David Barrett's site:
"International player Andy Just, plays his harmonicas continuously. When he brings his set of non-wood comb Suzuki Manji and HARPSMITH Corian (Randy Sandoval) harmonicas for cleaning, I place all the assembled harmonicas into the ultrasonic bath. Mixed with a cap full of "EuroSonic" solution, I let the bubbles expand and collapse 46,000 times to create a mechanical scrubbing action that works its way into the smallest crevices, losening and washing away harmonicoccus. After blowing off the residual moisture, Andy is ready for action."
*The harp looks good! Do you sand the comb after you put on the last coat? I've been using Varathane and the finish on the combs has been coming out very uneven and I can't get it to look good unless I sand it down?
"When tuning, calibrating offsets, and/or replacing reeds, I take the opportunity to perform a super duper cleansing by placing the individual components (cover plates, comb, and reed plates) into the Ultrasonic Cleaner."
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2011 1:56 PM
