MakaInOz
50 posts
Sep 01, 2011
7:59 PM
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I've been wanting to "flounce away the bondage held by wire while playing" (got to love Chinglish) and have been looking at wireless systems.
One I've not seen before uses a digital signal at 2.4G (is this bluetooth?) and what looks similar to a guitar bug for both transmitter and receiver. They're both USB charged and with a 1/4" male jack, the transmitter looks like it could be small enough to go straight into a mic (obviously for a mic set up to use guitar cables) or via a short adapter cable (to a pocket or belt I guess) for XLR or amphenol mics. In fact if you put a 1/8" male on the other end, it could plug into the mic input on the transmitter which also has a volume control.
More detail at http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/504200/210595735-442237872/Joyo-Digital-Bass-Guitar-Wireless-System-Transmitter-Receiver-JW-01.html
Anybody had any experience with this technology?
Cheers
Maka
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Aussiesucker
891 posts
Sep 02, 2011
12:10 AM
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This looks pretty good & a good price. Lot's of Youtubes showing it. If you get one let us all know how/what you think of it.
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Rick Shanks
89 posts
Sep 02, 2011
2:43 AM
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Although I'm not familiar with the unit you describe, I have an AKG WMS40 snap on mic transmitter/reciever that is fantastic and I have used it on my main pedalboard for three years or so with no problems. I love it and really dislike using a cable now. I have another pedal board with a Samson 77 snapon mic transmitter/reciever, which is good too, but not as good a signal as my AKG WMS40 unit.
Wireless is great ! Hope this is helpful info.
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KiwiRick
http://www.richardshanksart.com
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Shredder
303 posts
Sep 02, 2011
4:44 AM
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Get with Greg at Blowesmeaway.com he has a set up thats geared for harmonicas. I have one and like the fact the transmitter runs off a AAA battery and last at least 12 hours and sounds great. If it's good enough for Jason Ricci and a few other big names it's damm good enough for me. Gregs a great guy to deal with and is a harp player him self.
Mike
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HawkeyeKane
157 posts
Sep 02, 2011
8:51 AM
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For the longest time, I was set on getting the Hoodoo Hand from Hohner. I'm glad I didn't now. I've heard nothing but complaints about it. Just depending on what I refit my JT30 with, I may get one of the Samson models Greg carries.
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Hawkeye Kane
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garry
106 posts
Sep 02, 2011
5:51 PM
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i don't know about this unit, but one thing i'd note is that there is a big difference between a transmitter that just plugs into your xlr mic (like the samsom 77) and the kind that requires you to run a cable to something clipped onto your belt. the whole point of wireless is to get rid of cables. with my samson, i grab my mic, turn it on, and i'm good to go. with a small mic like the audix fireball or greg's ultimate series, the entire mic/wireless thing is small and light, a joy to use. i use mine now with an sm57 and greg's inline vc, which is a bit more cumbersome, but not much. and still a long way from being wired to my belt.
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bharper
50 posts
Sep 02, 2011
6:56 PM
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The whole point of wireless is to get rid of cables that tether you to your amp and get tangled up with your feet. A belt pack is a good solution for people who don't want the added weight on their mic (not even an ounce) and for those who want a digital signal. Analog wireless devices like the Samson 77 are similar to old-time CB radios that truckers once used. They have squelch and interference. Digital devices do not.
There are trade-offs both ways.
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Greg Heumann
1253 posts
Sep 02, 2011
10:59 PM
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bharper - "squelch and interference"? Me thinks you might be in over your head here.
Squelch is a circuit that mutes the receiver when the signal falls below a certain signal level, such as when you walk too far away. Otherwise it sounds like tuning between stations on the radio. That can happen whether you're digital or analog. In the digital case as the signal gets weaker you get choppy sound and then nothing.
Interference happens when something else transmits on your frequency. That can happen whether it is digital or analog too.
Someday there will be good digital wireless systems. I believe Line 6 has one that is fairly good right now - although it requires a belt pack, and I haven't tested it for harp. Are you aware that harmonica microphones produce 2-3x the output of guitar pickups? Just because it works for guitar doesn't mean it works for harp.
The Chinese aren't known for their mastery of electronics. I don't own a "Joyo Digital Bass Guitar Wireless system" but I sure as hell am skeptical. Let's just think about some of their claims.
Why aim it at only bass players when the market of guitar players is so much bigger? Probably because their sampling rate can't handle high frequencies.
20-30 meters? Not very far. 20 meters is just across a decent size stage. How can a system perform better "outside the room" than in it?
"Unlike analog audio it will not be influenced by external signals". Bullshit. If you know anything about RF, you know that cannot be true. It IS true that digital transmissions, under certain conditions, have a better chance at being received faithfully. On the other hand there are loads of issues that can plague digital transmission that are unique to digital and screw up reception. If you're old enough to remember phone calls from one analog phone to another, (remember, the kind that was mounted to the wall and connected by a wire) you'll recall they were perfectly intelligible, didn't drop or chop, and worked reliably. Compare that to a call from any wireless digital phone (i.e., your cell phone) to any other wireless digital phone. It can go from good (delayed, but good) to unintelligible. Delay is an important aspect of digital wireless. If you aren't aware of this, call a friend who is in the same room from your cell phone to his.
Their spec says "short delay time". Sorry, but for live performance, ANY delay time is unacceptable. Otherwise my notes comes out at a different time than I played them, which will DEFINITELY mess with your head.
A spec like "signal to noise and distortion > 87dB" is laughably meaningless. I don't know about you but if I heard distortion even at 86 dB I would be moved to leave the room.
I, too, yearn to "flounce away the bondage held by wire while playing" - but remember the old adage - "if it sounds too good to be true it probably is" - and - "a fool and his money are soon parted."
I can't say it for a fact without having tested this system, but I'm willing to bet that it is a piece of junk.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 11:00 PM
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Greg Heumann
1254 posts
Sep 02, 2011
11:11 PM
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I just googled for reviews of this system. Apparently my concerns are valid. Here's what the first one I found said:
Initial thoughts were good when testing at home, but playing in a 'live' situation I have no confidence in the unit,as the range is pretty poor, useable up to about 3 meters, any more and the latency becomes huge.
Another issue is although it uses bluetooth technology, I am pretty sure the signal is not encrypted, as it gets very harsh interference when the guitarist switches on his Line 6 G30, we tried 're-pairing' the units and switching channels on the line 6, all made no difference, still got a horrible buzz. We also switched the bluetooth on our phones on, and this too affected the signal, The signal strength also seemed to 'drop out' whilst I was playing on my own throughout a song.
So the long and the short are :- Its great if there are no other bluetooth devices on and you are very close to you set-up!
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/Greg
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garry
108 posts
Sep 03, 2011
7:21 AM
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"The whole point of wireless is to get rid of cables that tether you to your amp and get tangled up with your feet."
not for me. i don't want my mic to be tethered to anything, including me. with the belt pack thing i can't set the thing down without disconnecting something. and regarding the weight, i doubt the weight of a AA battery and my transmitter is any more than the weight of the cable that runs to your belt.
i wasn't addressing the analog/digital thing. as a computer guy, i'd prefer digit, so long as it worked as well. i just want it directly attached to my mic and not to my belt.
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bharper
52 posts
Sep 03, 2011
8:47 AM
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Greg, your old-school analog wireless has a squelch circuit, just like a trucker's CB radio. 10-4 good buddy! Your technology is straight out of the 70s. I think it may be you who is in WAY over his head!
I suggest you actually test a digital wireless (not the Joyo, it looks like it's crap). Spouting off about something you've never tried is ignorant, and so is posting random Google results.
garry, setting down your wireless belt pack is as easy as setting down your SM57 with the appendage on the end. The belt pack is clipped to your pocket or belt, not grafted to your clothing. You just slide if off and set it down with the mic. You don't disconnect anything.
Do you carry a cell phone? The digital belt back is about as cumbersome as that. And, they are both digital...
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Greg Heumann
1256 posts
Sep 03, 2011
8:56 AM
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Bharper - I know what squelch is, thank you. My only point is that just because it is digital doesn't make it good. Existence of an adjustable squelch circuit is a good feature on analog systems.
I will test digital when they lose the belt pack. You are wrong in saying laying the whole system down is easy. I frequently switch between harp and sax when I perform. Hanging a mic in a holder on the mic stand is a one hand operation. Putting a mic connected by a wire to a belt pack down and picking it back up is not so simple.
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/Greg
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bharper
53 posts
Sep 03, 2011
9:17 AM
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Since we're relying on Google here, try googling for "samson wireless problem." Interesting...
And Greg, comparing digital wireless systems for music to mobile phones is nonsense. Phone transmissions have a host of packet-switching burdens that impinge on the "quality" of the audio. Digital wireless systems have none of that, and they are noiseless. No CDMA or TCP\IP. The receiver just rejects anything that is not sent by your specific transmitter.
You should try it. It is pretty amazing, really.
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Greg Heumann
1258 posts
Sep 03, 2011
9:33 AM
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Whatever. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I didn't say digital was bad. In fact I said it has promise but so far I don't see a harp-friendly unit on the market, which to me includes losing the belt pack. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying analog is bad, which is a bit of nonsense as I have a bunch of customers using the systems I'm selling very happily.
As I said - when a belt pack-less digital system comes out, I will try it. FYI - the ""samson wireless problem" you asked me to Google points to an older VHF system I don't even carry.
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/Greg
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AirMojo
198 posts
Sep 03, 2011
4:13 PM
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I think a wireless rig is great, even at home where I pretty much do all my harp playing.
Several years ago, I bought a Samson AP1/AF1 wireless setup (Hi-Z guitar)... but the UHF frequency is now "illegal", but I still use it, and look forward to someone to come knocking at my door.
About a year ago or so, I bought a digital Line 6 Relay 30 unit, which is a "belt pack" setup that requires a short cable... it works great, and has 6 channels (not that I really need them at this point).
I would really prefer a cableless non-belt pack type unit because why have more "connections" to the mic.
Seems like its only a matter of time before the current "legal" UHF frequencies will become "illegal".
Anyhoo... I don't mind the cable so much, as I have a nice belt setup that holds some harps, and I rigged up a mic pouch that I added a 'cable-hole" on the bottom to thread the short cable through, so that I can put the bullet mic into it without detaching it or the transmitter from the belt.
Here's a photo:
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2011 4:39 PM
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eharp
1436 posts
Sep 03, 2011
6:14 PM
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thanks for the pic, mojo.
i got the beltpack system and my problem is if i clip it to a pocket or belt it easily springs off. if i put it in my pocket, it gets turned off.
but being untethered is very cool!
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garry
109 posts
Sep 03, 2011
6:29 PM
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"Do you carry a cell phone? The digital belt back is about as cumbersome as that."
correct. when i play, i want to just hold a mic. not a mic attached to a cable attached to a cell phone. that cable ruins the experience for me. based on your comments, it sounds like the weight of my snap-on transmitter (~1 oz, or the size and weight of a disposable lighter) would ruin the experience for you. sounds like we've each gotten the system that suits us. good for us.
going back to my original point, there is a big difference between belt pack and snap-on systems. some prefer one, some the other. fine. anyone shopping for wireless should consider this in their decision.
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Shredder
304 posts
Sep 04, 2011
8:02 AM
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Any one out there want to buy my old line 6 wireless?
The belt pack sucks being tethered to the mic with a mic cable. OH let me add the fact it eats 9 volt batteries fairly fast, and they cost way more than AAA's.
The reception was great and I had no issues with the preformance.
I now use Greg's Airline 77 as my primary rig. I havn't used the Line6 since I got the Airline, it's a back up just in case. The fact the Samson uses AAA batteries is a big plus and they last me 12- to 14 hrs.
My 2 cents, Mike
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nacoran
4559 posts
Sep 04, 2011
10:33 AM
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I don't know if this applies to any of the systems mentioned here, but I'm shopping for a new wireless computer mouse, and in the world of wireless computer mice there are three different types of recharging schemes, the ads don't specify which one clearly and there is a huge difference.
The first scheme is just batteries. It works well. It's worth investing in a couple sets of rechargeables and recharger. It's easy to keep a set of spares charged. It works well.
The second, well, they tried to get clever and built the battery right in. When you put your mouse in it's cradle at night it recharges. It's basically the same model that cellphones use. Disregarding issues with battery memory which can shorten the life of your batteries when you recharge them before they are empty, and if you have a marathon session or you just forgot to put your mouse in the cradle the night before you can end up hoping you have a spare mouse lying around.
The best solution is a hybrid where the cradle can be used to recharge the batteries but you can also take the batteries out and swap them with fresh ones. Lithium batteries so you have less problems with battery memory. Maybe it would even have a cord you could plug in to make it a non-wireless mouse if it's battery is dead.
I've seen these same issue and slight variations in music. I never understood pedals with batteries only when a power adapter could save batteries.
I looked at wireless headphones recently and couldn't find one that I liked. I don't understand why there aren't hybrid plug in/wireless options. I tried a terrible set of SONY's with worthless active noise cancellation. I ended up getting a really good deal on a promotional model from Marshal. Half the length of the chord is spiral, like an old telephone chord. It's got a heavy duty spring loaded jack and is just all around solid. No cheap plastic. But they are not wireless.
So the idea of looking for a wireless mic system scares me. :)
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Nate
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bharper
54 posts
Sep 04, 2011
11:04 AM
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Greg, a little tip for ya... If you are truly "not trying to pick a fight" then perhaps you should refrain from saying that someone is "in over your head" when they simply have a contrary view.
Furthermore, your example of two guys in a room talking to each other on their mobile phones (as an example of poor digital wireless performance) is absurd. The phones don't transmit the few feet between them. They are not walkie talkies! The signal is routed through a myriad of phone towers, switches, repeaters, and cables, along with tens of thousands of other calls in the same pipe, before reaching the phone across the room.
On the other hand, digital wireless systems such as the Line 6 transmit the few feet between player and his amp at light speed. It is at least as fast as a cable of the same length. There is no delay, as you claim.
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Greg Heumann
1259 posts
Sep 04, 2011
12:22 PM
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You're right - the "in over your head" comment was inflammatory and uncalled for. I apologize.
As for claiming that digital is by nature completely free from interference, that statement is false. I understand what digital is. My degree is in computer science.
And there is a delay to digitize audio and then convert it back to analog at the other end. In the case of the Line 6 it is something like 10 ms, which is indeed negligible. The spec on the product in question just said "short delay time" and again, in the absence of a meaningful spec, I was suggesting there is cause for skepticism. I am a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic. I question EVERYTHING - especially if it sounds too good to be true.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 12:23 PM
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nacoran
4560 posts
Sep 04, 2011
12:43 PM
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bharper, remember that cellphones use more choice parts of the wireless spectrum. I think the point he was making was simply that even with digital there can be problems. You said digital devices don't get interference. That's not a contrary view, it's just wrong. That's okay though. Digital devices do interfere with each other. Wifi range, for instance, is reduced by the number of other WiFi devices active in the same area.
As for the squelch issue, I didn't know anything about it, but looking it up it is a deliberate feature. Digital devices can get interference too, they just express it in different ways, ways actually fairly similar to squelch in actual effect.
Did he make his point inartfully? Maybe. Greg's got over 1200 posts. He's bound to eventually say something with out all his filters on sooner or later (although he seems to always be one of the cooler heads around here.) He's also a top notch microphone guy. Visit his page or read the great primer he put together on the subject. Please don't one random comment for more than it was intended and turn it into something more than it is.
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Nate
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tmf714
767 posts
Sep 04, 2011
12:47 PM
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Well said Nate-thank you!
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MakaInOz
51 posts
Sep 04, 2011
5:03 PM
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Looks like I started something here.....
From my perspective, to be truly wireless the transmitter has to be built into the microphone. Given I already have a bunch of microphones, the options are a 'guitar bug' style that is small enough not to inhibit how I hold the mic (and which usually only suits mics set up for 1/4"), or a 'cable to a belt pack' for other types of mic connectors. That issue doesn't change whether you're using analogue or digitial RF.
Sounds to me like digital/bluetooth is emerging as useful wireless technology, but has a way to go. The current analogue has a few issues too. My main gripe is the regulators changing the frequencies - and the frequencies are different in different countries.
One of the attractions of the JOYO is that it is 1/3rd of the price of an analogue system. But that's not much good if it suffers from lag and/or interference. However, it might be useable in some environments. Is is worth $110 to find out? That depends on how well I can sell the concept to the domestic manaagement - an entirely non-technical, financial discussion, which might have to wait until I get back some of the brownie points I used up buying the new powered mixer!
Cheers
Maka
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 5:06 PM
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Greg Heumann
1260 posts
Sep 04, 2011
6:01 PM
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@MakaInOz - there is another option! The Samson AX1 transmitter is a straight, barrel shaped device about 3/4" in diameter and about 4" long. It has an XLR connector so plugs straight into low-Z mics, but it is perfectly happy with high-Z dynamic elements without requiring an impedance matching transformer. Only requirement is that the XLR connector be wired Pin 2 Hot. I make adapters for mics with screw-on connectors, with or without a volume control, so they can be used with the wireless system. I like this transmitter MUCH better than the guitar bug because it isn't in the way. It does feel more "built into the microphone."
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 6:05 PM
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HarveyHarp
299 posts
Sep 04, 2011
6:24 PM
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OK, where is mine. Juat Kidding. I only ordered it yesterday.
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HarveyHarp
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MakaInOz
52 posts
Sep 04, 2011
8:18 PM
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Thanks for the input Greg.
I have a few issues with the Sampson system - starting with the $419 price tag here! I suspect it needs to be modded for Australian-approved frequencies - hence the big $$. The basic system ('stub' and receiver) has been discontinued. In the current system a Samson Q7 dynamic microphone (which I don't really need) is also included. The ergonomics look good though.
To add to my Sampson issues list, my CAD VC50 is 3 pin hot (all my other XLR mics are 2 pin hot) and I have a number of mics with 1/4" jacks. So I'm going to need a system that can work as a belt pack at least some of the time if I'm going to be able to use it for all my mics. I guess the Sampson 'stub' could be used as a belt pack (perhaps in a shirt pocket)with a 2 pin hot XLR adaptor cable for the non-XLR mics (and the CAD).
I've got more special purpose cables and adaptors than any sane man would want already, so I might sit back for a while and see where the technology goes.
Maka
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Greg Heumann
1261 posts
Sep 04, 2011
10:46 PM
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Yes, at retail you have to buy the mic to get the handheld system. It is a throwaway. It is however the only system left on the market where you can detach the transmitter from the microphone. I buy individual components from Samson - but they won't let me sell systems on the Asian or European frequency plans, only the North American plan. You don't need any special mods - just a system on a legal frequency in your country.
I can make a Pin 3 Hot to Pin 2 Hot adapter- however crystal mics should really be run though an impedance matching adapter for this transmitter. (I can make a pin 3 hot hi to low-Z adapter too....)
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/Greg
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REM
110 posts
Sep 04, 2011
11:04 PM
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Airmojo, Where'd you get that badass harmonica belt buckle?
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bigd
333 posts
Sep 05, 2011
4:51 PM
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I have the Line 6 and it works great. d
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AirMojo
204 posts
Sep 05, 2011
4:59 PM
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@REM I got the harmonica belt buckle at a SPAH Convention in the early 1980's.
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isaacullah
1566 posts
Sep 06, 2011
12:06 PM
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@ MrVLUN: Looked at the specs on that XLR wireless adapter, and saw: "Audio Bandwidth • 100-6800 Hz". That seems like it has a really low top-end frequency response, although I think it's still higher than the highest pitched note you could play on a harp. I wonder what that would do to the harmonics though? It's not a bad thing to cut off the uber high end of the frequency spectrum (that's something we all tend to do with our tone-controls), but I wonder if this is a bit too much? Does anyone know for sure?
~Isaac
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== I S A A C ==
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HarpNinja
1632 posts
Sep 06, 2011
12:13 PM
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Airmojo - I want that belt buckle!!!!!!!!!
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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