I can't believe that the government (based on our current economic situation) would spend so much money going after Gibson?
Interestingly, C.F. Martin & Co. who also uses "Indian Rosewood" in some of their models, and does not use Indian workers to process that wood either, (assuming ...we just let slide that the U.S. DOJ is even going to bother enforcing picayune Indian laws within our borders...) was NOT raided. Care to guess which company is a big DNC/Obama donor?
Also, According to the Lacey Act, if you buy a guitar from Gibson and resell it, you can be held criminally liable?. Everyone who touched the product (the store owner who sold the guitar) would be criminally liable? It wouldn't matter if he or she knew or not?
Been talking to my luthier buddy. He's sweating a little over this. Everything he has in his inventory so far is completely legally obtained. But he's getting anxious to see if the rules are gonna be changed and they quite possibly get him in an ex post facto type of deal. ---------- Hawkeye Kane
Well this is pretty outrageous to say the least. Pretty scarey as well. I strongly suggest that we start contacting our Congressmen and Senators and indeed the White House to investigate this behavior.
As far as some conspiracy or favoritism towards Martin because they're Democratic donors, that's pretty ludicrous on the surface. For a start neither Taylor, Fender, Collings, Guild, Gretch, or any other manufacturer has been raided yet they are not included in the accusation despite common sense dictating that at least some of them make donations to one party or the other. Also, I see no indication that Gibson are donors to the GOP. Something is going on, it may just be stupidity, but politics is not the likely motivation here. ---------- LSC
after reading the the brilliant op-ed in The Daily BUZADERO i can clearly see why all parties involved are 'up in arms', and lobbing Green Bullets,as it were.
boring, but important: FENDER has not been raided (yet) arguably,because there are no American Strats, Teles, etc. historically, Fenders were first built by Mexicans in Fullerton CA. (check the names on your vintage Fender hang tags dude. Hablo Espanol? Claro?). As we know, the white dudes worked at Boeing. to quote Walt Kellys Pogo, 'we have found the enemy, and he is us.' ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2011 2:18 PM
It is NOT outrageous at all. ------------------------
- What is the reason for the ban?
* If it is preservation of a dwindling species, I'm ALL FOR IT! If we do not ban these things now, there will soon be none left for biologists to study and for future generations to enjoy. Like so many of the species that have vanished from existence from Just the amount of time I have been alive. ------------------------------------
***Edited*** (This post violated Forum Creed) -Miles. ----------------------------------------
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 3:55 PM
Should the Feds stop busting marijuana dealers because the government has better things to spend the money on? After all, Who are they hurting?
Just because some do not see the impact of the simple sale of one object does not mean there is no impact. The impact may be a Collective environmental impact.
Oops! I shouldn't have brought up the part about Matin and donors! I just found it interesting, I am not into conspiracy theories! It wasn't really my plan to make this into something political. I just find it strange that Gibson was singled out. From what I've heard from people in the biz, Martin and some of the other companies are breaking the same law (although this is just hearsay)! ----------
"historically, Fenders were first built by Mexicans in Fullerton CA."
I have a small shrine in my home office to one, Ms. Lupe Lopez. God bless her.
My wife, the Injun was threatened for a few years at the reverent tone in my voice when I spoke of Ms. Lopez, the other Latina. She's over it now. I think.
my personal favorite is an inspector Rodrigez, with Gomez comming in a close second. both of these estimable gents names adorned many 'American Strats' of redoubtable beauty. ----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2011 3:36 PM
I thought it was ebony that was in question. While the wood is endangered, it is the logging practices that are detrimental to the environment. Silly argument, but I guess its the principle. Seems that since its a musical instrument, and we are musicians, Gibson should be cut some slack. Here is another news article on this subject.
"The Ministry of Synthetic Forestry estimates, for example, that financial losses of $3.7 billion annually are realized due to illegal harvesting and exports."
It is Illegal for a reason! Not to just spite guitar players. -----------------------------------------
***Edited**** (This post violated forum Creed) -Miles.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 3:53 PM
@Miles Dewar - With respect to you Miles and those who supported your post, I suggest you all view the entire press conference by Gibson CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, and the short summary point made by Gene. This is not an environmental issue. Indeed, Mr. Juskiewicz is on the board which sets up the polices for insuring that the regulations and procedures that protect endangered species are adhered to. Assuming Mr. Juskiewicz is to be believed, and there is no evidence he should not, every environmental regulation and policy was followed, import/export approval from every agency in both countries was granted and can be proved by documentation. As far as I can tell this is fact, not opinion, ideology, or political persuasion.
It would appear from the statements by Mr. Juskiewicz this alleged offense was a violation of a regulation relating to labor,i.e. which countries labor did the finishing of the product not the wood itself, not how it was grown, not how it was harvested. He also conjectures that the regulation in question was instituted at the behest of a logging union in Oregon as a means of protecting American jobs, this despite the fact that neither rosewood nor ebony or any other wood commonly used for guitar fingerboards or bodies is grown in Oregon. Logging unions are not known for their concern for environmental issues.
Mr. Juskiewicz is not using the additional fact that Gibson has added nearly 600 jobs in the past two years to justify illegal or unethical behavior but as a factor which makes the governments mystifying action even more egregious, i.e that that action is taking taxpayer dollars to do damage to taxpayers and their families when no wrong has been done. Gibson has not been charged with any crime either in this instance or the Madagascar wood case from two years ago.
If any further proof of the DOJ overstepping the bounds look no further than the use of armed SWAT teams at a freakin' guitar factory! Where were the guys in body armor with automatic weapons when we needed them on Wall street at Goldman Sachs and the like?
BTW, for the record, I have no connection with Gibson other than playing a 1983 MIJ Epiphone bought used. Great guitar. I am politically independent. I'm much more interested in old school common sense right or wrong, genuine facts, and whether or not an idea or policy actually works rather than party or ideology. I also love blues and harmonicas. Lets get back to that shall we.
---------- LSC
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2011 7:19 AM
Two magnificent missives Senor. So good in fact that Miles quoted from one of them to make a serious point! (unless he was pulling my other leg that is) - You've been hiding your advanced academic degree from us haven't you? a DBS perhap?
@Miles - Not to be dissagrable - but you might want to check your sources when quoting from a certain Mr. Buzadero. "Ministry of Synthetic Forestry" - Is concerned with "illegal corian (and, further north, lucite) logging" - not Indian Rosewood. We all ought check the supply chain of our Corian harmonica combs. I had no idea I was contributing to collusive corruption in the Synthetic Forrestry industry. ----------
"As far as some conspiracy or favoritism towards Martin because they're Democratic donors, that's pretty ludicrous on the surface."
And:
"Also, I see no indication that Gibson are donors to the GOP. Something is going on, it may just be stupidity, but politics is not the likely motivation here."
My point here is not to argue about politics, but merely to demonstrate that it is not entirely outside the realm of possibility that Matzen's original posted opinion might have some validity:
"Henry E. Juszkiewicz, is a donor to a couple of Republican politicians. According to the Open Secrets database, Juszkiewicz donated $2000 to Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN07) last year, as well as $1500 each to Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN).
When warrants as ridiculous such as these are issued and executed, there appears no other reason than because the company or individual at hand is being targeted, not because there is any sort of wrongdoing. As a company, Gibson is a legendary. They’ve done nothing wrong, except, apparently, deigning to have a Republican CEO.
One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” "
A snippet of an email received by me this morning, original source not known.
Politics is a very passion-producing topic. However, to me, so is the shakedown of musical instrument makers, in business trying to keep things going.
Buz, your rant reminded me of a petition I passed around in my high school- 'Save the Naugas- Every year millions of helpless naugas are slaughter inhumanely for their hides. Please help us put an end to the murder by signing this petition and don't buy Naugahyde products.' I got lots of signatures.
The tale of the Gibson guitar raid — the one focused on the legendary guitar maker’s alleged importation and use of illegal wood — has taken an odd turn. Now CEO Henry Juszkiewicz is claiming the Feds told him that some of his problems “would go away” if the company used Madagascar labor.
In an interview with Beck radio affiliate KMJ 105.9 in Fresno, California, Juszkiewicz told host Chris Daniel that the government made the point “explicitly:”
CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?
HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes, yeah. They said that explicitly.
We need to keep our eyes on the fundamental principles. Law. Due process. Constitutional limits. (sing with me) "Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?" ---------- Robert Hale Learn Harmonica via Webcam Low Rates, High Results DUKEofWAIL.com DUKEofWAIL YouTube
I understand the "lmfao." The claims he makes sound ridiculous and laughable...Until you do a little digging to verify the information behind his claims.
But I'm not going there. This thread is about the ridiculous and laughable-sounding armed SWAT Gibson raid.
@Buzadero- I love your satirical writings and at least we agree that these warrants are ridiculous.
I accept that Henry E. Juszkiewicz donated $3500 to GOP candidates as an accurate statement. There was no statement of his political leanings in the report but you researched and I assume your source is accurate. However in the light of donations to the GOP and GOP candidates by company donors: Chartwell Partners - $163,000 Goldman Sachs - $1,058,000 Perry Homes - $85,000 Moore Capital Mgt. $100,000, to name just a few, but yet no armed raids I fail to see the logic that the White House would go after a company making guitars simply because one of their employees contributed a pitiful $3,500 to the opposition?
And Alex Jones? Seriously? Have you ever met the man? I have. I could tell you stories for days. His paranoia extends well beyond the sphere of politics or world events.
Gibson exploding their market share at the expense of two competitors? Outselling who? Fender? Yeah right. And every kid insists on buying American don't they? And Gibson doesn't make guitars outside the US do they? Oh, hang on they do own Epiphone and Samick which are made in Korea, Japan, and China. But never mind, it's obviously a conspiracy by the global Overlords. Must go. The black helicopters are jamming my connection. ---------- LSC
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2011 7:35 AM
hmmm, no, i believe you are mistaken LSC. Gibson does not own Samick. Samick is its' own entity. they'll make low end copies of any make or model guitar you can think of for anyone w/ the coin.
they make foil hats too:) uh oh! a black chopper just unloaded a buncha determined looking ghurkas in the CVS parking lot! see yah......
----------
MP doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Because you're criminally insane! You ache to commit a felony to see if you can get away with it. Do you have rosewood combs? If so, you're a criminal. What kind of wood is in you're furniture? Gun handles? Panelling? Do yo have 20 pages of paperwork to verify that all you're wood is legally obtained? If not, you're a criminal. I bet you're such a low-life that you'd aid and abeit your children in the haneous crime of selling lemonade!! Maybe you are even so despicable that you grow tomatoes in your front yard.
We in this wonderful nation , The United States of America, do not tolerate such horrible criminal acts.
Oh, dear! I'm not sure I spelled "haneous" right. I hope I haven't broken some kind of law. Maybe I should go into hiding.
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 10:24 PM
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2011 1:21 PM
