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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Mic'ing a small 5 watt amp?
Mic'ing a small 5 watt amp?
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528hemi
180 posts
Feb 22, 2011
7:31 AM
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Do you lose a lot of the tone that you can get from a small 5 watt amp if you mic it? Does anyone have a Youtube
of a small 5 watt amp being mic'ed with a band in a bigger room? Just curious what you see is the biggest negatives?
Regards,
528hemi
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toddlgreene
2630 posts
Feb 22, 2011
7:38 AM
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No, you can maintain the tone, but the mic and placement do make a difference, as well as whatever EQ adjustments are made on the PA. Adam mics his HG2, and whatever mic he uses sends a great-sounding signal thru the PA. When my Epi is mic'd(seldom), usually a SM57 is employed, and pointed at the speaker off-axis, i.e., at an angle to the cone. However, as most places we play are small, I crank it for tone, and use a line-out to put a little of the signal in the PA. Sounds and works fine, plus I don't have to fool with a mic.
As for negatives, if your mic'd-up amp is cranked and you feed some of that signal into the monitors(if used), it's yet another chance for feedback, but it's manageable, especially with a good soundman at the board. If you run your own sound, clip the highs and mids back on the monitor signal. You SHOULD be able to hear your amp as a monitor, but with loud bands this isn't always an option when using a little low-watt amp.
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Todd
my moderator username is Admin007
Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 9:03 AM
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Oisin
760 posts
Feb 22, 2011
9:34 AM
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I always mic up at the jams I go to and it's exactly as Todd says...if you've got a good sound man he'll make you sound good throught the PA.
The only time I've had problems is when I took a 50 Watt amp to the jam and didn't mick up. I sounded crap and would have gladly swapped back to the 5 watt Fender.
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Oisin
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toddlgreene
2632 posts
Feb 22, 2011
9:40 AM
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p.s. 528, I think if you pick on the link below my sg for my band's site, that version of Use Me was when I was mic'd up in a large club. The camera's mics didn't do it justice though-it sounded pretty sweet in there.
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Todd
my moderator username is Admin007
Eudora and Deep Soul
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Joe_L
1092 posts
Feb 22, 2011
10:44 AM
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The biggest negative is if the band is loud, you may not be able to hear yourself on stage. That's not good. Personally, I hate it when I can't hear myself on stage.
Time is a precious commodity that shouldn't be wasted. If the venue is a jam, you should get there early to set up your stuff. If there are a lot of people waiting in the wings, it is more polite to keep the music flowing and play through the PA, than to spend time setting up equipment.
As a person who has run a jam, very few things bugged me more than some guy needing to set up a bunch of gear before they are ready to go. It doesn't matter, if it's a guitar player who wastes five minutes tuning their guitar or a harp player screwing around with pedal boards, amps, amp reinforcement gear (because they didn't bring a big enough amp) and whatever other stuff they've got.
Sometimes, a band can play an entire song, before people get their equipment act together. That just cheeses everyone off. At jams, one should bring a minimal amount of gear and be able to set it up and tear it down quickly.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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kudzurunner
2339 posts
Feb 22, 2011
11:07 AM
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I'll second what Joe L says 100%. I'm a fan of small amps, miked through the PA, but I always bring my own mic and am willing, whenever needed, to play through the PA. Truth is, although you may not get the crunch-tone that you want through the PA, if you sing and then blow harp through the mic you're singing through, you'll always be loud enough. :)
I've certainly been in contexts where even my miked-up HG2 didn't give me enough stage volume. I avoid feeding harp signal through the monitors; it's much better to work from a combination of stage volume and the sound of the miked amp coming out of the PA speakers and bouncing off the back walls. But sometimes a little monitor volume is needed, too. In that case, small amps are MUCH better, I've found, then big amps, because a compressed, overdriven sound is more user-friendly through the monitor than, say, a 4 x 10" that's not driven quite hard enough.
Start by cranking your amp up to the fullest operating volume that works on stage--i.e., that doesn't make you impossibly loud on stage relative to others. Then, if still more stage volume is needed, add a little into the monitors. Don't make the mistake of turning a large amp up only partway, so that the sound is still pretty clean, then saying "I can't hear myself" and trying to get more stage volume through the monitors. I've done that. I did it years ago with Satan and Adam when I brought my Bassman on the road. I started having much more fun, and getting a much better and more user-friendly sound, once I left the Bassman at home and started bringing a Tweed Deluxe and a Premiere Twin-8 on the road. Lately I use the HG and the Premier--an even better sound: the HG2 is smaller and has an 8, not a 12. Run 'em hot!
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 11:10 AM
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LittleBubba
31 posts
Feb 22, 2011
12:08 PM
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I've always used a 57 to mic my 5-watt amps, but I've also been curious about the Sennheiser popsicle mics ( the 609 & 906 currently, I think), because they're so lightweight and eliminate the need for another mic stand, or they're not as heavy for draping in front of the amp.
Anybody have any experience with these???
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toddlgreene
2636 posts
Feb 22, 2011
12:08 PM
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Ditto the jam advice-if I go to sit in with a band only for a tune or so, or attend a jam, I bring ONLY harps, and maybe my go-to mic if a DI or onstage PA head is available. But, we all favor playing thru our amps in general, and if you are playing in a situation where your rig is there to stay, set it up the way you want, and allow a few minutes for a sound check on its own, then a whole band sound check if time permits. Remember the off-axis thing when a stick mic is used for the amp's speakers. Most good soundmen know that, but there's always that new guy.
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Todd
my moderator username is Admin007
Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 12:09 PM
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toddlgreene
2638 posts
Feb 22, 2011
12:17 PM
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LittleBubba-I think one of those is what Adam uses. If so, the one time I heard him, it sounded fantastic. There were Bassmans in the room, unmiked, and his signal thru the PA sounded just as full.
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Todd
my moderator username is Admin007
Eudora and Deep Soul
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 12:39 PM
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Mojokane
302 posts
Feb 22, 2011
1:58 PM
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Like Joe L says...open mic nights are a fast pace and the next person in line shouldn't have to wait long.
If the ring leader is cool, and aware of these hazards, every body will seamlessly get their chance.
'lol...'there's always that new guy'...
Great subject, here's my nickels worth.
Keep your expectations low...
Worse...is a sound guy who thinks he knows, and doesn't listen to helpful suggestions. grrhhhh!
Which is why I have stopped going to most open mics. Terrible attitude makes a horrible mix. Not just for the harp players.
At gigs,MP takes a 5 watt 2X12's Kalamazoo One(mic'd). Killer tone.
This was our worry, too. Losing the essential tone. Mic placement, and for a monitor setting..clipping mids and highs VERRY important...too.
My favorite is a 57, too....can't beat it. MP takes the extra time to oversee the sound man, just to make sure.
And if everyone is mixed properly, the soundman doesn't need to add much harp though the monitor...very much.
Advice...to the novice lookin to head out and test out their chops.
Learn from what we're all talking about on this subject. It's often true the harp player is frowned upon because of inexperience with other musicians...but also..
There are so many times I can't even remember where the sound guy inadvertently, or intentionally sabotaged the harp player. Not to mention the entire band performance. I have felt robbed and cheated out of a good hard on...
Ahhhh, and when it's done right, you really feel it.
A good sound man for starters, will mic as many players as possible. That's just the beginning.
Maybe another thread all together, but still pertinent to this subject.
Beware of GUITAR PLAYERS! who can't bear the thought of being upstaged. And when the sound man can't control their amp...outside of directly telling them, it's a train wreck waiting to happen.
A 'wall of sound' takes all the fun out of it, and scares away the audience.
Because they usually won't listen anyway.
Latent anger toward guitarist who are too loud, I guess. Can ya tell?
Hmmmm. Anger management?
It has taken me many years to polish my senses, when searching for the right people to play with. Often the ones who play well with harp players are very particular about which harp players THEY will allow in to their circle.
Be patient but don't let people walk all over you.
I know I know..that's atleast a quarters worth!
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 2:01 PM
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harpoon_man
11 posts
Feb 22, 2011
2:33 PM
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I’ve had mixed results over the years with micing small amps to the PA. With the right soundman, it’s dreamy, but with the wrong soundman, it can be feedback city or you’re totally buried in the mix. My preference for a jam situation is to haul an amp with enough horsepower to compete volume-wise without the assistance of the PA. My full-sized Meteor was great for this.
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garry
31 posts
Feb 22, 2011
5:10 PM
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regarding joe's point, the flip side of the harp guy taking forever to set up is the sound guy who ignores you until after the band's started playing. i used to play through an rp250 into the PA, and they'd spend 20 minutes setting levels on every mic on stage (all amps, drums, etc) and then start playing, while i scrambled to figure out levels and catch up. and i was in the house band (yes i know it was a bad situation, but i learned a lot and considered it paying dues)!
i later decided i needed to control my own volume and sound, and bring my own amp (vox vt30) now. my gig case holds wireless receiver and power strip, with output cable preattached. when i walk on stage i need a single outlet. unzip case, plug strip into outlet, amp into strip, cable into amp, i'm good to go in less than a minute. i control my own sound, volume, and feedback. teardown is equally fast, so i don't hold up the next guy. not a bad setup.
and yeah, i don't go to that jam anymore.
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 5:11 PM
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waltertore
1113 posts
Feb 22, 2011
5:47 PM
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The old blues jams had no set up time between players. You got called up and it rolled. You dealt with whatever the mic/mix was set to. There was no talking to the soundman because there usually wasn't one! No talk about bringing in ones own amp, mic, or any of that. Guitarists would often share the same guitars. Today's jams with guys lugging in a ton of gear to play a couple songs must make those old guys roll in their graves. they would say "boy if you can't make it sound with what we got up there you are in the wrong place." I ran many a blues jams in the 80's and they were the biggest pain in the butt coming in a close second to hustling gigs. The old blues jams started to deteriorate at that time and these new jams had weekend superstars in their own minds lugging in tons of stuff. I would tell them like the old guys did. Use what is up there or go somewhere else. I pissed a lot of guys off. I eventually got tired of the whole thing even though I could make more money running a jam than playing a full night. Managing the volume, gear issues, and egos, made it not worth it. Plus at those old style blues jams you had to earn the right to get up and play. You had to hang in the club, become part of the scene. When you finally got called up, you knew you earned it. that felt good and if you did good they would have you up again and soon somebody would ask you to join their band. todays sign up and play jams don't create the same atmosphere. The anybody can get up and play just doesn't interest me. The whole apprentinship thing is deterioting and the instant gratification card has taken over. Such are the times........ Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2011 5:59 PM
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Mojokane
303 posts
Feb 22, 2011
9:16 PM
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Respectfully, Waltertore...
I disagree with the old timers op. With the exception of hauling too much gear, and wasting too much time setting up, for sure..enough is enough.
And my answer to that is...DON"T LET EM!
yeah, maybe earning the right to get up and play, was worth the wait. And it was more about keeping the tradition of blues going. Like filtering the bad apples before they ruin a good open mic night.
But for what reason!?
It's not an open mic then, is it?
Key word is OPEN.
I have seen some amazing 'fools' turn up out of nowhere, too.
The olden day open mics, from what you describe,sounds to me...may have held more of an elitist death grip, on who gets up and plays, for far too long.
The bonus of spontaneity, and of suffering the fools, gets annoying, for sure.
The upside being, it brings a sense of open-ness, and accessibility to the closet musician who has always been too afraid, or maybe just unsure, of his own abilities..
So there is an upside, and a down side, to this issue, eh?
I cringe many times at seeing this same lady harp player get up and play.(my brother runs a Live rehearsal and she is his ex girlfriend...). Nevertheless...
It is horrifying to listen to her. Like nails on a chalk board. But she is such a sweet person, and she is visibly thrilled at the audiences positive (feigned) response...You almost need to laugh it off.
Regarding those 'newbies' who turn up with too much gear..
After they're told to keep it simple, or they won't get up...they learn, and/or don't come back.
But that's me.
How about you?
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
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Joe_L
1093 posts
Feb 22, 2011
10:18 PM
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Back in the day, you had to earn your opportunities and make the most of them. You had to prove your love for the music. You had to show respect for the music and the performers. Nothing wrong with that.
One thing that I've noticed is that people show an open lack of respect for performers. In Chicago, if you wanted an opportunity, you had to befriend people and prove you could play. You were given an opportunity. If you didn't make the most of it or if you weren't respectful, you were going to warm a barstool for a while until your next opportunity.
"Hazing" rituals were pretty common. If you didn't have a thick skin, you wouldn't make it. I've got no problem with that. If you worked hard and were humble, they treated you right and opportunities were plentiful.
I like preserving the open nature of open jams. Open jams in bars are thinly disguised covers for sellign drinks. If people don't turn out, because the musicianship sucks, drinks aren't sold. The jam won't last long. Generally speaking, performers don't drink.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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waltertore
1114 posts
Feb 23, 2011
3:48 AM
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Mojokane: those blues jams were not open mics. Colleges use to have "coffee house" open mics. Those were much more akin to the open mics of today. Anyone could get up and play if they signed up. Like Joe_L said, the blues jams were of a different tradition. I think what happens when this subject comes up is a musical generation gap issue. The younger players and even baby boomers that have recently started playing out, have no idea of what the blues jams were about. It is like judging the past in todays context. the blues was an apprentinship music. That was the root to it really. Today that part is being unplugged and technique and cash up front is trying to fill the void. IMO we are loosing the essence of the blues. Again this is a historic view and I would expect the new musical generations to attack it because they were not raised in it. They have been raised in a more of I have the right to play whenever I feel like it. That theory would keep you on a street corner back in the day. Nothing wrong with the streets. I love playing them, but to break into the club scene was alot different than today. Also the club scene today is just about dead compared to then. Open mics make money. People bring in friends with money and everyone spends. Talent has nothing to do with getting on the stage. Back in the day that is all that got you up there. An obvious result of this I have the right to play is older players are more in retirement due to lack of playing opportunities than back then. Then the older players were looked up to. I have been emailing lately with Lewis Cowdrey. He was one of the big guns of the original austin blues scene. His credits are as deep as the blues go. Yet today he can't find a gig. To me this part of the tradition being lost is very sad because the young learn from the old. That is another historical fact that is being erroded by todays ways not only in music but in our entire culture. Modern times always push new ideas but have historically held onto the past. That is dying quick today. Beware of getting old young people........ I hope the young generation can overcome this trend for their own sakes. Walter
PS: This trend of not putting history and the elders in a place of honor is something american culture has been doing forever but the technology advances today are so incredible it is speeding this up as well. Getting old in this country is a scary trip unless you can buy your way out of it.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2011 4:05 AM
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Mojokane
304 posts
Feb 23, 2011
9:46 PM
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thanks, Waltertore...
I appreciate your elaborating on the subject.
..quality performers are rare. I mean, those who actually entertain, and show you something that you can say 'WOW' to.
Over population and instant gratification are part of the problem, too.
Maybe a word to the wise would be.....?
Where do we go from here?
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Joe_L
1099 posts
Feb 24, 2011
3:45 AM
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Be respectful and humble. Respect people that have years worth of experience on the bandstand. They've seen and experienced a lot. You can learn a lot, if they choose to share their experiences.
You might be surprised how much a person can learn by observing and listening to the older players. If you get a chance to see them in person, do it. It's worthwhile.
When I lived in Chicago, I used to go and see the Aces a lot. I listened to them quite a bit. Not only was Louis Myers a fabulous harp player, but other great harp players tended to show up at their gigs. I learned a lot about listening at those shows.
I never talked to Louis, Dave or Below much because they were stars. They mave have been working a $25 gig, but they were still legends in my eyes. I never mentioned being a harp player, because those guys were way too heavy for me to play with in those days. I just listened.
Be humble and respectful. Rusty Zinn also put it nicely in a video in another recent thread. Don't be an asshole.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2011 3:45 AM
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Rasputin
15 posts
Feb 24, 2011
7:09 AM
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I've thought about buying a Epi Valve Jr. for open mics. Then mic it using my Fireball V and play through a SM57 or bullet.
The Fireball's VC over the amp would be useful and all I would need is a open XLR and an outlet.
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Tait Sweigart
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waltertore
1118 posts
Feb 24, 2011
9:14 AM
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Mojokane: At those old sunday afternoon and monday night jams you rarely saw anyone that didn't WOW you. I remember elis mile high club in oakland. In the door in the middle of a song would strut dr wild willie moore blowing his sax. The same for Mark Naftlins Blue mondays at the sleeping lady in fairfax, Ca. On those nights charlie musselwhite, john lee hooker, lowell fulsom, kim wilson, jimmy mc craklin, sonny rhodes, cool papa, freddie roulette, and anybody who was touring through would get up to play. I sat for 1.5 years asking everynight if I could play. When Mark finally gave me the nod it really meant something. After that I was a regular. Having to earn something like this sure makes it lot more meaningful than just buying it with cash. Those guys kept a pulse on the regional scene. They knew who was doing what. I was doing pretty good with my band and elevated it to point that I finally got the nod to play.
Where do we go from here? Great question. I would hope the younger generation rediscovers live music and looks to the elders for learning and guidence. Nothing new there. Just the way it had been done for generations until this recent technology explosion. One last thing. Many people talk about the older players not being slick enough with technique, speed, etc.. Look back at when the british rockers found the older bluesmen. Eric Clapton and his peers could play more with one finger than all those blues guys put together from a technical view. Yet they worshiped the old guys because the realized what they had to share was beyond any technique. It was art! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2011 9:18 AM
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Svenharp
12 posts
Feb 25, 2011
6:50 AM
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Hey guys just thought I'd dip my finger into this even if it is slightly OT from the original thread: that's what I love about forums is the evolution of threads :). @the old timers haha. While I agree with some of the sentiments about open mic nights these days (I wasn't around for the good ole days) I have to disagree on a couple of points. First is the idea that one should respect someone older than oneself, simply because of age. sure I respect everyone as a human being and I respect people who are exceptional musicians or who have experience, but I do not respect someone or venerate them because of their age, they could have been a disgusting person for all I know. That is not by the way aimed at anyone, just a pet annoyance and something I think fuels the 'age war' as the media have dubbed it.
Second is that I disagree with the fact that there is something inherently bad about open mic nights: because they let bad people play. I understand the distinction between the blues jams of the past and the current capital driven mic nights. the problem is that I have met and know many musicians who are socuially awkward and are so good precisely because they do not spend theirt time hanging at the club: they spend their time practising. A typr of jam where it is 'who you know' just as much as 'what you know' then surely one misses out on a lot of talent by making jams eletist, sure by opening the stage to allcomers one has to put up with some crap, but surely that is worth it if one unearths one nerdy kid who spends all his time playing harp and has never been to a club before he went to an open mic night if he turns out to be a genious?
Sorry if this is too OT but its an interesting discussion for me: how is the blues gonna stay alive and in what ways will it need to adapt/compromise. Especially as a young player.
Thanks guys
Sven
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barbequebob
1571 posts
Feb 25, 2011
7:32 AM
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What Waltertore is really talking about is NOT about open jams, but what it really is that it is essentially a description of the pro jam/special invite/snob jam, where the standards of musicianship is CONSIDERABLY higher than that of the vast majority of open jams and some of the really dumb crap that you see at open jams won't fly at those. BTW, that is EXACTLY what Waltertore said from the get go but a few of you didn't read the post carefully at all.
Someone who has better overall playing skills plus good time, understands some basic theory, and also has good LISTENING skills, and much of the last three you don't see often enough in most open jams would be better served by getting to know someone who goes to those special invite jams because wheras if they stay in most open jams, they'll stagnate and develop too many bad habits like the plague, in the special invite jams, they're gonna be around musicians of a higher caliber of musicianship and so they will learn to up their game and get more from them than just staying in the usual open jams.
Open jams will see tons of people who really aren't ready to be on the bandstand, some who are real rookies in many ways, will have to deal with the "divas with little skill behind the diva" types, but it is part of the learning process, but once your skills get more vastly improved, the usual open jams can wind up being musically detrimental to a player after awhile and Svenharp, that's something you clearly do not understand. For a absolute beginner, open jams are fine, but as you progress, they will eventually hold back your progress.
Now, as far as putting any amp thru the PA, I'm with Adam that I'd rather NOT put it thru the monitors because that is asking for freaking feedback HELL and that's being nice about it. In over 30 years of pro playing, I can count exactly 5 times where the sound guy did a great job when he put the harp amp thru the monitors and didn't cause a feedback nightmare at all. Many sound guys are often rockers and too often the stage monitor level can be too loud to begin with and then putting harp thru them makes things worse.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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colman
31 posts
Feb 25, 2011
7:36 AM
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"back in the day"over 40 years ago in philly,there was like three, chicago style harp players and you got to play most the nite. if you could honk !!!
i always went into the P.A. and made sure the treble
was down and a little reverb sounded good.i got that from James Cotton at the main point... times have [shure] changed...have fun...
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barbequebob
1574 posts
Feb 25, 2011
7:41 AM
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Playing thru the PA has never bothered me because I can get much more going thru a PA than most players can do with their expensive rigs. For playing 2-3 songs in a jam, I find it's just too much of a waste of time setting an amp up and carrying that around and playing thru the PA doesn't bother me in the least. For someone with a lesser skill set, it probably will. Besides, some of the very best blues players I've ever seen ALWAYS played thru the PA.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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waltertore
1122 posts
Feb 25, 2011
7:46 AM
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Thanks for clarifying the point Bob! You added some good points I left out. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,600+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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chromaticblues
635 posts
Feb 25, 2011
8:09 AM
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Playing thru a PA is not impossible. When I first started playing professionally I had a hard time with feedback with my amp and mic set up. So my guitar player friend said man that squeeling is killing us! Try playing thru the PA. He had a box full of mics from the seventies and I went thru them one at a time untill I found one that sounded good with the harp. It was an old audio technique daul impenence vocal mic. It was a low quality (cheap) vocal mic of that period, but had a great sound for harp (compared to most vocal mics).
The moral of the story is: you can play thru a PA if you have the right mic for it and YOU are good enough to play with out a tube amp! I love my amps, but you have to be versitle!
To answer the original question: I have a 3 watt amp that has a huge sound with a 8" speaker. Not all small amps sound big. Some are terrible for harp without being modified!
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chromaticblues
636 posts
Feb 25, 2011
8:09 AM
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Playing thru a PA is not impossible. When I first started playing professionally I had a hard time with feedback with my amp and mic set up. So my guitar player friend said man that squeeling is killing us! Try playing thru the PA. He had a box full of mics from the seventies and I went thru them one at a time untill I found one that sounded good with the harp. It was an old audio technique daul impenence vocal mic. It was a low quality (cheap) vocal mic of that period, but had a great sound for harp (compared to most vocal mics).
The moral of the story is: you can play thru a PA if you have the right mic for it and YOU are good enough to play with out a tube amp! I love my amps, but you have to be versitle!
To answer the original question: I have a 3 watt amp that has a huge sound with a 8" speaker. Not all small amps sound big. Some are terrible for harp without being modified!
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Svenharp
13 posts
Feb 25, 2011
9:41 AM
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@bbqbob: im gona back out of this one respectfully to not ruin any vibes of this forum because I hold a different opinion to you entirely, which is fine but hey takes all types :)
Sven
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9000
60 posts
Feb 25, 2011
6:44 PM
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@bbqbob: What do you find important when playing straight throught the PA? I've always been impressed when I've seen Cotton do it but I suspect he would sound great playing through a Mr Microphone...
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Music speaks where words fail.
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kudzurunner
2346 posts
Feb 25, 2011
7:24 PM
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Not to hijack the thread, but I've got a story to share.
Two days ago I drove down from Oxford to Jackson, about 165 miles, to do a session. I was paying the bass player, Jerry Jemmott, very good money to do an overdub on "Thunky Fing Rides Again," a song from the forthcoming Satan and Adam album. The session was at a small home recording studio run by a guy named D'Mar, a drummer.
Do you-all know who Jerry Jemmott is? He's arguably the greatest living soul/funk bass player. He played with King Curtis--and Mr. Satan, Sterling Magee, was in the band with him, which is how they knew each other and how I made Jerry's acquaintance. Jerry played bass on B. B. King's "The Thrill is Gone." He played on hits by Aretha. Here's his CV:
http://jemmott.com/disco.html
Very modest guy. Amazingly nice. He had spent several days, clearly--and he said this--working up a part for the song. It was majestic. He had no ego, no attitude. He had a lot on his mind--personal stuff that doesn't belong in this thread--and he could easily have blown off the session. But he didn't.
The engineer, D'Mar, had zero ego. Soft-spoken, nice, quiet guy. Jerry said, "Do you know who D'Mar is?" I said sort of. Because when I arrived, before Jerry, D'Mar and I chatted for a while and I asked him about his work--he's a drummer--and he said "I played with Little Richard for 16 years." But there were lots of pictures of Prince on the walls, too. He's played with him, too. Here's his CV:
http://www.arts.state.ms.us/artist-roster/artist.php?n=martin_derrick&r=artist-roster
Zero ego.
I didn't quite like, or get, what Jerry played on the first take. But how can a guy like me tell a master musician that I didn't quite get it? It's a delicate situation--and the key thing is, I was aware that ALL of us get buried in our own egos and we need other people to pull us out. Maybe he was handing me gold and I didn't quite have the ears to hear it.
By the end of the session, an hour later, the three of us had worked together and we had exactly what I'd driven down to get--although I wasn't sure of that until the following day, after my co-producer and I had remixed the track with the bass part EQ'd just right.
The lesson here: because I've had a lot of training under the watchful eye of a master musician (Sterling), I knew how to handle myself in a respectful way among master musicians, even when my ears told me I wasn't quite getting what I'd expected to get. Sometimes the problem isn't them, it's you--your ears, your less-than-perfect sense of what a piece of music needs. I knew that the key thing in a recording session is the vibe: the feeling in the room. It's gotta be about the bond between people, not "getting what you need," because it may turn out, once you get the feeling right, that the perfect stuff just flows. And in some cases--this was one of those--you may not realize how perfect the stuff was flowing until later. Then you listen to what you came home with and you say, "Damn! That's exactly right." And you can hear music, good music, your music, in a different way.
Music is an energy flow between people. Never forget that. You can have great technique but such a bad attitude that no music is made. Or you can have so-so technique but a disciplined ego and big energy, and everything can work great. The hardest lesson for young musicians to learn, I suspect, is how to tame your own ego, watch, look, listen, and allow the good stuff to happen.
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2011 7:27 PM
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kudzurunner
2347 posts
Feb 25, 2011
7:34 PM
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BBQ wrote: "For a absolute beginner, open jams are fine, but as you progress, they will eventually hold back your progress."
This is 100% correct. I've been saying this for years; it's nice to read my own experience in somebody else's words! Yes! You're only as good as the worst player on the bandstand. When you're the worst player, an open jam is a great opportunity. But after a while, when you're better, you'll find that a bad bass player or drummer can be a groove killer. Musicians I know used to joke that certain jam-sluts (talentless folks who came to the same jam, week after week, and "did their song") were such incredible groove-killers that after sharing 10-15 minutes of stage time with them, your groove would be wrecked for three or four days. That's how guys talked.
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Joe_L
1100 posts
Feb 25, 2011
8:39 PM
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Jams are jams. Some nights, the musicianship may not be great. Other nights, it can be off the hook. One of the things that i dig about the jams is the social aspect. I get to hang with friends. Sometimes we play some music, sometimes we don't. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it isn't. It's a jam. It's the nature of the beast. I've met some really nice people at jams including Greg Heumann.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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tbirdflier
19 posts
Feb 25, 2011
10:16 PM
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Wow, this is an interesting thread for sure. I play out twice a week at two different jams and I've done this for several years.
I've seen/heard pretty much all of what everyone here has mentioned and I know exactly what you all are talking about.
My experiences have been that the guys who really know their insturments/music leave their ego at the door when they play at a jam. It's an equal opportunity experience with good sides and also bad sides.
You learn to go with the flow and if you attend on a regular basis, you get to know who "gets it and who doesn't".
My rules for myself are these: Be patient, listen and offer encouragement to new people, leave the ego (if you have one) at the door, accept the fact that you will have good nights and you will have not so good nights, play from the heart and understand that the reason you're standing there up on stage is because it's a love affair with making music with others.
Find the magic in the moment and when things go south, keep playing as best you can and "go with the flow".
I play with some very talented people, they bring out the best in me and I appreciate the opportunity to jam with them.
I usually play through my amp, but if I end up using the PA it's okay because it's technique that holds you up, not the amp/mic you usually use.
Be humble, have fun,listen, live in the moment (it won't always be there), understand that the folks that run the jam have a lot to deal with most of the time, let other harp players use your amp if it's on stage...you may end up staying at the jam longer than you expected, but sharing is good.
Did I mention have fun...
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barbequebob
1578 posts
Feb 26, 2011
7:44 AM
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@Svenharp ---- As a young player, I understand what you'e trying to express, as I most certainly was a young player myself (obviously, I wasn't born old). You've made an automatic assumption that just because they're older it automatically means they're gonna be better, which is not necessarily going to be the truth because there are plenty of older guys at jams no pro would ever consider hiring.
I'm seeing that you feel that someone good can be discovered at open jams and/or may get stifled at the pro/special invite/snob jams. Well, actually in the open jams, you're more likely to get stifled than the other because the musicianship of many of those jammers can do more to harm you than help you in the long run.
I also have not just pro experience, but not only have I participated in open jams, but I've also run an open jam as well, and NOT the special invite/pro/snob jam and trust me, having to run it, keeping things running smoothly, dealing with egos of jammers (and too often, sorry to say, the WORST ego problems are often from the jammers with more ego than actual ability and they're FAR tougher to deal with than a pro with an ego by a mile).
Unlike Waltertore's experience with the special invite/pro/snob jam, like most other bands who run open jams, you are often are getting paid FAR less than even a normal gig on a Sunday, and most clubs that have them, the one that's usually supplying the PA as well as the amps and drum kit is the host band (some, like the one I hosted, the club actually had its own PA that was really good, but VERY few clubs ever supplied its own amps and drum kits), and so all of your gear is going to be taking an enormous beating, especially from some really obnoxious moron over heavy egotist jammers who thinks they're s**t's ice cream and they get worse once they've had a few drinks, a few tokes on a joint, or snorted a few lines of cocaine. You also have to worry about some careless jammer spilling drinks on your gear and that can cause some very expensive damage and too often, those jammers won't even offer to compensate you for the expensive damage they've caused.
Those are some of the worst things to put up with when you're the host band.
Some of the host bands at open jams aren't all that great at all to begin with and it can also make things not very fun at all.
As far as discovering young talent, let me tell you this story, and it's all 100% the truth.
There was a 17 year old kid guitar player who was obviously too young to come in on his own, so he had to have either a parent or gaurdian with him at all times.
While he was sitting in, I could hear he was pretty good compared to most of the jammers, many of them being in their late 30's and older, but unlike most of them, he never played too loud and I could clearly see he had something many players 20-30 years his senior didn't have, and that's REAL rhythm chops, and most young guitarists don't have any to speak of.
What I try to do is get as balanced a mix as possible of good jammers together with some a little bit less good so at least the better players can help lift their skill level and make things not only better overall for the jammers, but the one area jammers tend to forget far too often, and that's the LISTENING audience who aren't jammers. Often times, this young player, I'd call up first and have him play with my band before I brought up the other jammers because I could clearly see he had more REAL overall skill than 99% of the jammers coming in there and when you are surrounded by better players, it makes everything you do much easier and you have fewer headaches.
Well, one day I got a call from my drummer, who said come on down to his rehearsal space and let's check this guy out. When I got there, the guy on guitar was this 17 year old kid.
The bass player couldn't make it, so we did it as a trio, and I threw 20 different grooves at him, ranging from the most down home 50's Chicago blues to West Side Chicago blues, New Orleans, jump blues, and even a more funkier version of Crosscut Saw, which Albert King recorded without the rhumba groove, and some blues which had more of a jazzy feel to it just to see not just his solos (most people in jams, like music fans, tend to pay attention ONLY to solos and usually nothing else but...), but his rhythm and 'comping skills for real.
Well, his rhythm and comping skills were so good that often times having a bass player was almost unneccessary and in the more down home Chicago stuff, it kinda reminded me of a James Harmon session that was on Extra Napkins and Mo' Napkins Please that had just Harmon, Jimi Bott on drums and Junior Watson on guitar, and it sounded like a HUGE band.
In fact, several times, I stopped playing just to hear what he was doing with that, and like most pros, I do NOT impress very easily and I was VERY impressed to say the least.
Two months after he turned 18, he became my regular guitar player, and I then found out he was also a terrific harp player as well, and since I also played guitar, we often did the famous role swap made famous by LW and Louis Myers, and that was so much fun for me backing him up playing guitar while he played harp FAR bette than 99% of the jammers that would come in and play.
Well, he eventually went on to play with some serious blues heavy hitters like Jerry Portnoy, James Harman, Sugar Ray & The Blue Tones (Ray told me one day that he had heard him sing and said to him, "What the hell do you need me for, man? You're absolutely great on your own." This wasn't a diss, but a huge compliment on this guitarist's abilities), Kim Wilson on some of his blues tours, and then became a regular member of the T-Birds, replacing the great Kid Ramos, and when I last spoke to him, he just off the road playing with Booker T of Booker T & The MG's fame, and I told him "You had some big shoes to fill in there," meaning one of the greatest all time rhythm guitarists in Steve Cropper, and I knew he could more than handle the job.
As far as I'm concerned, his peers are guys like Little Charlie Baty, Rusty Zinn, Kid Ramos, Rick Holmstrom, Duke Robillard, and Junior Watson, and each of these guys are also great rhythm players and do an awesome job backing up harp players as well. He just turned 34 years old and that guitar player's name is Troy Gonyea.
@ 9000 --- As far as thru the PA goes, I rarely have anything done to it, jsut use the same mic that I'm gonna sing thru, but a lot of times, sound guys, for male voices, often have too much treble and not enough bass for male vocals, let alone harmonica. Guys like James Cotton or ANY harp player with REAL skills and tone will sound good thru anything regardless of what it is and that's the truth.
@Kudzurunner --- Calling guys like that jam sluts is almost too nice a way to describe them and how I agree with you that they are groove killers and they will make ANY really good player sound like total dog s**t without really trying.
Around the Boston area, there are FAR fewer jams than even 5-10 years ago because too often, you see the same jammers at every jam trolling each one, often doing the same 2-5 tunes they've been doing for the past 5 years, too often either stagnating or worse, regressing, and what many jammers don't realize is that they ARE part of the entertainment and audiences are very fickle and jams eventually die if they are only attended by jammers and not just regular audience members looking to get entertained and if they see the same people doing the same thing for years and years and don't hear any real progress, and see things like the vocalist can't even remember the lyrics of the tunes he's been doing for so long, as an example, they're gonna get bored and not want to bother coming and too many jammers don't understand that because they're just looking at it from their own point of view only and don't often see a bigger picture.
In open jams, getting other jammers to pay attention to things like dynamics, it can be such a struggle that the only way to come across is to damned near beat them over a head with a baseball bat, but in the special invite/pro/snob jam, you will RARELY ever see that because, unlike what you see in many open jams, there's no ego happening and the musicians DO pay attention.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2011 7:47 AM
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MP
1449 posts
Feb 26, 2011
10:39 AM
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Jerry Jemmott!?? Adam, you have arrived!:) you can go home now and rest on your laurels and hardys.
as far a groove killers go, once i tried to play all blues by miles with these guys and it sounded like a german beer drinking waltz and i almost expected sissy and bobby(wearing liederhosen) from lawrence welk to come out dancing.
my groove/time was so messed up i couldn't tell time on a clock unless it was digital.
i'm all better now, thanks for asking:)
MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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MP
1450 posts
Feb 26, 2011
10:50 AM
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PS,
i've miced small amps forever. one night rick estrin used my rig for a show(we were opening so he was stuck with my rig). 2 1/12 amps in series of dubious wattage.
we put them up in the air on gear cases so they were at estrins head height- he's so freakin' tall-
at one point during sound check, he looked at me and pointed to the soundman and said,"i don't like that guy".
didn't matter, he sounded awesome! after the gig we talked gospel music. i think he liked The Mighty Clouds of Joy.
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MP
doctor of semiotics and reed replacement.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2011 10:53 AM
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bluzmn
9 posts
Feb 26, 2011
5:13 PM
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@528hemi
Back to the subject of your OP, what really sold me on the idea of a small amp miked was listening to Pat Ramsey; there are several videos of him playing live on youtube, and they sound pretty much like his recordings. In the comments in response to one of harpsucker's amp demo videos on youtube, a guy who played bass with Pat Ramsey for a while said he always played harp through a tweed Fender Princeton and/or Harvard; in many of the Pat Ramsey videos you can see 1 or 2 small tweed amps behind him. Check out some of those videos.
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Matzen
37 posts
Feb 26, 2011
11:31 PM
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@barbequebob: Great story! I got to hang out with Troy Gonyea and went bar hopping last April after a Booker T show. He really is a great guy.
@Kudzurunner: So when will we get to hear the song?!?
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