If in general I've grown to the point where I'd just as soon play through the PA then use an amp - even if it means straight in - does that mean I am getting old? I have two excellent amps, but the PA is more appealing every day.
Listening to the "blow off" clips with Carlos and Sugar, who I think have fairly clean, PAish sounds, me thinks that that is the bee's knees (when I have control over the mix).
I am to the point where I am considering even a possible mic change for playing cupped into the PA - from a SM57 to Electro Voice RE10. I have posted a couple of times about wanting a dirt pedal that turns on and off, but I think I could now live without one???
For my main gig (2-4 shows a month), I am in charge and have been buying my own PA and lights over the last few months. I think with the mixing board I have, if I got a nice powered monitor, I might stop bringing an amp to shows. I would plug into my Line 6 M13 and then into the board. If I really needed some dirt, I have a solid model with a distortion pedal figured out.
I would use my HG50 or VHT Special 6 for times when I didn't have good monitoring.
Feel free to talk me out of this - or further into it. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 7:01 AM
I wouldn't bother taking an amp to someone else's jam/gig unless they requested/agreed beforehand, I'd be happy to play through a PA otherwise...if it's your PA I'm sure you'll work it out & PA can be great for a clean, cupped up tone, but some PAs can be more distorted than some amps and typically don't distort in a nice way.
If amp tone is what you want, then you really need an amp, but if you want clear & still warm, then a PA will often do.
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 7:20 AM
It just means your coming to your senses. I have a fifteen watt amp I use for my personal monitor and take a line out to the PA. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
When I spent some time with RJ Mischo at Amandas Rollercoaster in Phoenix,he said he is going to start using the PA as much as possible-he said even the best soundmen still get the mix wrong when he uses an amp and bullet mic. RJ has great tone-if anyone can pull it off with great results,it's RJ.
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 7:28 AM
It's not getting old, it's getting smarter and learning NOT to be dependant on the gear, which too often the average player thinks is the key to sounding good, which as you now know, is the single BS story of all time. I can tell you I can getter a far better tone thru the PA than most guys do thru some of the most ridiculously expensive gear and overly dirty setups you've ever seen. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Being a one man band and no roadie but myself I am at the point in my life that lugging this stuff is getting less and less fun. Here is what I take out - snare drum, bass drum, ride cymbal, cymbal stand, snare stand, foot pedals, keyboard, keyboard stand, guitars, guitar amp, harps, PA- speakers, mic, cables, mic stand. Man, I got tired just typing that out! This has led me not being interested in playing out anymore unless the gig will be playing to a listening audience and a sane staff. Carrying all this stuff just isn't worth it anymore and unfortunately the older I get, the more instruments/gear I am using....... With that said, I don't feel too sorry for a harp player that carries an amp :-) Seriously, I say carry what you need to make your music right. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Walter, I know what you mean! PA, Lights, stands, set-up, sound check...all stuff I have to worry about.
I am totally not going to part with my HG50 or VHT, but am looking at using a QSC K10 as my vocal/harmonica monitor full-time in my band and with the other band I play in. I was worried about eq, but I realized I can take the signal from the board to the monitor.
Originally, I was thinking I'd go into the powered speaker and line that out into the board, but it doesn't save me any set-up time either way...and the sound board will be something near me all the time anyways. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
I went down this route last year,looking for something portable and light, as I've got to transport the PA as well.
I tried the Lonewolf Harp Attack, into the PA. Was ok,but I was not 100% happy with the sound.
Also mic'ing up a small amp. The small amp mounted on a speaker stand at head height worked very well. I could lean into it for solo's,if required.
The rest of the band complained that they could not hear me using either of the above. I only have one monitor,for vocals,that sits in front of me. So I guess it depends how many monitors you have and if you can live with the PA tone.
A tube in my amp failed 2 years ago and I played using the vocal mic/PA. I was surprised how good it sounded. I wonder if the audience even noticed the change! ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2011 8:00 AM
Depends on what I have control of. PA can be ideal because I can really be heard throughout a room. There's too many variables out of my control plugging into the PA. That's partially my fault because I haven't worked out the gear. I do know that if I carry my favorite 4-10 Everythings Gonna Be Alright. (got that one on 78)
Mike: I am out of touch with all this new stuff you guys use. When I was using a real band, I always blew through the PA. Then it was just one mic for vocals and harp on a mic stand. There have always been loud players. I just had to find the ones that could play quietly behind a guy standing off the mic all night. I imagine the stuff out there today makes life nicer in the long run, but in the short run, having so many options could be expensive and time consuming until you figure out your setup? Technology is suppose to make ones life easier I heard :-). Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I can realte to your sentiment.. I have found myself playing more and more through the PA even when I have an amp at my disposal... I do still like to play chromatic through a bullet for the sound but many times will opt for the PA even on the "non sonny boy" stuff...
Here are some clips of me playing through the PA... It is definitely not the overdriven chicago blues but it still works...
Mike - I hate to rain on your parade. I was at those blowouts. In fact, I was at five of those shows.
Sugar Blue and Carlos Del Junco were both playing through a Bassman and Hummel's Sonny Jr Avenger that were cranked to the hilt. When they were playing through the PA, they were playing Sonny Boy-style. I don't know why the sound didn't come across in those video, but it was far from sounding like a PA.
Personally, I enjoy playing through the PA. It's the great equalizer. You quickly find out which players have good tone and who has no tone. Although I own some pedals, I'm not really a pedal kind of guy. When I play into the PA, I do it James Cotton style, a vocal mic (like an SM57 or SM58) straight in.
Kurt: sounds great as always! When did Doug Jay come back to the States? Email me your number; I switched phones.
I have mixed feelings about the PA vs. amp question. On the one hand, as a lot of my playing is really more in the Lee Oskar / jazzy vein than straight-up blues, a cleaner sound works well for me. So I like playing through the PA if I can control the volume and EQ.
On the other hand, I absolutely hate being at the mercy of the sound guy/girl. Even the good/cool ones generally aren't well-educated in how to make harmonica sound good... and a whole lot of them are not good or cool. In those cases, a 4x10 can trump their ineffectiveness. (Kind of like, a Smith and Wesson beats four aces.)
Lastly, I do play a decent amount of rock stuff, and for that I generally need an amp and some effects. So guess it really depends on the situation. But my biggest comment is that the PA definitely does not get enough respect as a perfectly acceptable means of amplifying one's sound, at least in certain situations.
@KC very nice stuff enjoyed it @Harpninja Like you I have plenty of rig, but I am older, and these days I glance at the amp etc before going out and think 'naa I'll go through the pa...no worries!
Lots of killer players run stright in the PA. I think Musselwhite does most of the time, James Cotton, the list goes on. It's not always about having a boutique tube amp to play thru. The great players don't need an amp to get that growl.
I've never found playing through the PA to be a problem, and it keeps the logistics so much easier and simpler.
Some players who feel they MUST have a bunch of distortion and crunch probably can only get a satisfactory sound through a tube amp. But I've never been into that distortion thing. I like playing through my amps, but I'm fine playing through the PA, too. I've done it enough that I know how to tweak the board or what to tell the sound man to do to give me decent tone when i do go through the PA.
I don't like playing through bullet mics anyway, so i always use a PA style mic whether I'm playing through a PA or an amp. I think amps generally give me a little "heavier" tone but i don't find it hard to get decent tone through a PA.
I think Sonny Jr might have something to say about this as Charlie uses a Cruncher.
"The great players don't need an amp to get that growl"
Which must be why most of them use large tube amps! Piazza- Harpking 6 x 10 Estrin- Harpking 6 x 10 Wilson- Various large tube amps Bassman.Sonny Jr etc Harman- 2x Fender Vibrolux Barrett- Megatone amp
I could go on all day!
In fact, almost every player I consider to be great plays through a tube amp.
Its not about getting that growl. Tube amps just sound great, and better for harp than anything else. Even for a clean sound a tube amp will sound warmer. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
You don't see guitar players plugging straight into the PA very often, are they hiding behind their amps too? Or just tougher than the harp players that don't want to add to their already burdensome load of a case full of harps to lug around? :))
I recently bought used Digitech RP200 + Richard Hunter patches and now I stop taking tube amp to rehearsals, RP200 is enough for most tasks. For gigs I still prefer my two amps, as dynamics is better and volume is under my control. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
@harpwrench You don't see guitar players plugging straight into the PA very often, are they hiding behind their amps too? X2 I asked this same thing the other day. The amp/tone debates are often about playing styles and preferences that flip to turf battles with the gear in the middle. Best case scenario: you run the best technique(which I will include tone) through the best equipment. Yeah, Cotton went to the PA and still sounded great -but not like he did on "I Want To Be Loved".
electric guitars direct into a PA usually yield very clean results. Very few electric guitarists play that clean. I go direct into the PA with my 1963 fender jazzmaster and tokai copy of a gibson 335 when I don't feel like lugging my princeton reverb. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@7LimitJI:"Tube amps just sound great, and better for harp than anything else. Even for a clean sound a tube amp will sound warmer."
There is warmth and texture in tube amplification. The SWR Baby Baby Blue bass amp I sometimes use has a solid state power stage but a tube pre-amp. The tube pre makes a difference.
I like my clean tube amps, too (Fender Super Reverb RI and Princeton Reverb RI). There's a subtle texture and body to tube amp tone that's nice--even clean tube amps.
But you know what? the solid state mic pre-amps in Mackie PA boards have a very warm sound and are very harp friendly. Wonderful tone and response. I just love blowing harp through a Mackie board. I think the best solid state gear has come a long way.
For simplicity, everyone at our harmonica club plays through the PA. Everyone plays through the same type of vocal mic. (that may change). And it works.
on the otherhand......
In my dance band,(I play bass) the leader plays his keyboard throught the PA. I have never liked it (but it's his band). I prefer every intrument have it's own amp. I believe it gives a more "live" sound when every instrument comes from a different spot. (no soundman in our dance band) Yes, I understand the pros & cons, but that is still what I prefer. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Play through whatever gets you the sound YOU like.
But when people start on about players needing to have a tube amp, or any other kind of amp, in order to make them sound good is total bs.
Shit in, amplified shit out.
Right from the start I knew I had to work to get a big acoustic tone. Thats how you end up with a big amplified tone.
I play through the PA too. To amplify my acoustic harp. Sonny Boy Williamson style. I have a very good condenser vocal mic,which is warm with good tone.A good PA too. But its mainly for singing.
Cupping a vocal or bullet mic, plugged straight into a PA is NEVER going to give you the type of warmth,texture and overtones that a good tube amp will.
I do play through a tube amp most of the time, but I no longer lust for a big azz 4x10 blaster. I have a light and portable Marble Max 1x8 that fills a small room. I run a line out to the PA for big rooms, when playing in loud settings, etc. Or I'll run into my Harp Commander and then into the PA. Or just an SM57 into the PA .... all sound good to me.
The nice thing about playing into the PA? You've always got the most powerful "amp" on the stage.
I love to play through the PA. But for a whole show? I need to change it up. RJ, Kim, Charlie, Rick, Rod, etc as pointed out - use the PA for clean tunes and an amp for other sounds. it's one thing to sit in for a tune or two. But to entertain for a 3 or 4 hour show? I won't give up my amp unless you pry it form my cold, dead hands....... ---------- /Greg
I sort of look at it as a goal. If a person can play through the PA all night long and keep it interesting, I am impressed. Personally, I can think of a couple of guys that play amplified that never alter their sound. That gets real old, real quick.
yeah, keep it fresh and interesting. If you can play through the PA all night, more power to you. But that's not likely to happen. Great thread. I'm still waiting for that pedal, you introduced last week. The $20 pedal, I can go through the PA. When I go sit in with other bands, it's hopefully goin to make it easier to leave the house without lugging the usual stuff. Unless, they ask me to bring my tube amp. I am lazy, too. I do have a very old pair of Yamaha PA wedges, with a 12' and a tweeter. They actually sound goooood, through my Bogen Cha33. The latest thing now is having your own monitor. But who's gonna bring those things to an open mic night? Maybe when I play a show where I can bring anything I like...wahooo. Now that's fun! And maybe I'll get laid, too. Bu bu but that's not why I do it, guys, reeeeeeeally!
if you aren't interesting enough to hold the fort all night, then no amp,pedal,reverb tank, or PA can help you bro ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
I have to disagree with the comments that said playing through the PA all night is not really going to carry it. A good player can do it easily. Just as he can do it easily through an amp and hand held mic. It totally depends on what the player feels is best for his sound. I do recordings/gigs acoustically with the same mic for both vocal and harp (and don't hold the mic in my hands). This works for me and I have played some of the best clubs/festivals in the world this way. I say play what inspires you. Don't tune into what the masses are doing. Play your own tune! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Well, you can also cup and overdrive a PA style mic (like, for example a 545) whether you are playing into an amp or a PA. You don't necessarily have to overdrive the amp or PA when you overdrive the mic element.
I'm with Walter Tore on this one--I perceive no need to change up what I'm playing through for variety in order to get through a gig.
Now one of the reasons I don't use a bullet mic and/or a dirty amp is I think they do not have a wide variety of sounds. And i do regularly see players who use bullets play "acoustically" into a PA mic during their gig for variety. Nothing wrong with that. But I find that I can get a decent variety of sounds or timbres from a harp friendly XLR style mic played either into an amp or into a PA using breath and mic handling techniques. i may change my rig from gig to gig depending on the style of music, the size of the room and what my guitar player is playing through, but I will play through that rig for the whole gig.
Sure, players who are after a sound that is heavy on distortion probably can only achieve that sort of sound with a tube amp. But if one sets up for that sort of sound it's difficult to get a cleaner tone if you want to for a particular tune without changing up during the gig.
Btw, i do agree that tube amps can also produce wonderful clean tone, depending on the amp and the set up. I'm not suggesting that all tube amp set ups are distortion heavy.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2011 12:46 AM
@hvyj You won't want to listen to these clips as the players are only using bullet mics with tube amps. Its monotonous, the same sound all night with no decent variety of sounds or timbres ;O)
A good player will always shine through. Whether using an amp and mic or playing directly into the PA.
Personally I couldn't give a hoot if an amp is available to use or not. I'm just at ease using the PA as I am playing into a mic and amp set up. To me what matters is that my playing is heard, not how much reverb, delay or distortion is in the sound. My tone comes from me and not from some magical gizmo that I plug in too. If I want more dirt in my sound I'll add it in by technique and if I want a more clean sound, again I'll use technique to get it.
Too many players rely on distortion, reverb, delay and/or other effects in which to hide, in much the same way as many guitarists do. This appears to be more often than not, the case with players who have not developed good technique. Players who have a good solid technique are less worried in general about effects and distortion and will often opt for a cleaner sound. Obviously this isn't applicable to all cases. Some great players use multiple effects and distortion to get a good sound (Jason Ricci comes to mind as one), they seem to be in the minority though.
I'd agree that many, many players who play "amplified" do tend to have a one dimensional sound. The video examples posted by 7LimitJI are some of the relatively few players that don't.
27LimitJI: despite using bullet mics, Clarke and Gruenling are set up fairly clean--especially Clarke.
I'm not saying a player can't sound good through a bullet. But I tend to agree with Kingley. Most of the time the more dirt a player sets up for, the more one dimensional the sound tends to be.
A good player can always generate a certain amount of dirt with technique. But no matter how good the player is, you can't get clean with a rig that's set up for crunch/distortion.
As a player gets better,they set their amps cleaner, as you learn to work the mic. It makes no difference what mic you use. Clarke was using an SM57 to gig with just before his untimely death.
I've tried lots of stick mics too.But prefer a bullets tone. A good crystal,when you un-cup goes very clean. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
7limitJI: Personally I prefer a clean sound but those videos could easily be replaced with 3 songs with top mic/PA gear and still sound monotonus. The sound quality of the videos stinks. Bad sounding videos is the most prevalent problem I see on the net. I continually see people posting about how great so and so's tones are on a certain video when all I hear is just plain overcompressed, tiny, harsh, crap, sound. Live I am sure it was great but the video camera mics ruin music. I can't listen through these things because what is coming out just sounds bad. When I do gig videos I set up my recording mics as well. Then I go back and sync up the recording gear tracks with the video and mute the camera mic track. It is a hassle but the result is night and day. The main point is this amp vs. PA thing is all about opinion. Play what makes you feel good. Life is short and why waste it trying to please others? Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
"As a player gets better,they set their amps cleaner, as you learn to work the mic."
Yeah. And a good player can work the mic playing into a PA the same way as he can playing into an amp. So, a good player can get VARIATIONS in sound/timbre whether playing into an amp or a PA. Which sounds better is not the issue--all I'm saying is that a good player with a decent mic and good technique can get VARIATIONS through either.
I like to listen for tone of some bullet players, like Dennis Gruenling and William Clarke, while when I play myself bullet mics always seems dull for me and don't have enough range both in bass and trebles, I love SM57, SM58, Fireball depending on music and gear I use. I also love tone of players who play electrovoice RE10, but I still don't have one. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Maybe the context of my post wasn't clear enough, but I am talking playing a a cupped dynamic mic to my pedal board, and then to the PA. If any of you were at SPAH this last year, that is what Michalek and the players he had up did for the whole set. It sounded fantastic - and I mean everybody.
I've always used "clean" amps in the style of Del Junco or Sugar Blue, although I realize they plug into lots of amps, and am thinking that when I have control of sound, it might be just as easy as lugging an amp around.
I am in real need of a monitor for vocals anyways, and am thinking of running my harp through it too. I am not talking simply playing acoustically into a vocal mic.
Several players here have made comments about playing clean amps - keyboard, guitar, and bass. Rather than buy another amp, I was thinking of a powered monitor, which would be a lot like using one of those amps (except I'd be eq'ing from the sound board).
HarpNinja - Well that would work fine as long as you eq the PA properly. Years ago I used to use a bullet mic with a Boss GE-7 straight into the PA (no monitors) and it worked like a charm for an "electric" sound.
