harpwrench
415 posts
Jan 15, 2011
6:57 AM
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This post is obsolete, deleted to prevent confusion.
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2011 4:22 AM
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kudzurunner
2245 posts
Jan 15, 2011
7:23 AM
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Joe:
My sincere apologies for my confusion regarding which of your marvelous custom harps I purchased. I did indeed purchase a Stage 1, not a Stage II. I have corrected the mistake on the "Harmonicas for Sale" page on this website, and I have added plaudits to what was already a pretty hearty endorsement--one that did NOT, I should add, contain the slightest reservation. I urge all forum members to take a look:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/buy_harmonicas.html
I'm sure your customer service is exceptional.
I should note here, as I do in my webpage endorsement above, that I used the Stage I harp to play one specific song on KICK AND STOMP: "The Entertainer," where I find it easier to play the several needed overblows smoothly when moving downward on the scale. No question that it helped me execute that particular song, and no question that it's a terrific sounding harp. It's bright and clear without ever losing the MB tone, and it's perfectly in tune.
I should also note that I played the other 13 songs on off-the-shelf harps. Since I'm a Hohner endorser, they cost me $20 each. It may seem strange that I'd rather spend that money on new harps that I can beat the shit out of than on postage back and forth to my harp repairman, but hey: I'm old school.
I stand by what I said about my particular needs, and I challenge anybody to listen to KICK AND STOMP--those 13 songs played on non-custom harps--and say, "Hey, your playing is obviously suffering for the fact that you use OTS Marine Bands." It doesn't. I'm not.
But I do plan to buy several more Stage 1's from Joe, and I do hope that he'll sell them to me when I come calling.
I'll add one more thing: my friend Ben Bouman gave me one of his Beta Harps tweaked specifically for my playing, and it's really nice. I'm using it to work up a couple of new songs. I have nothing against custom harps. I'm slowly getting used to the idea of swapping them in.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 7:25 AM
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barbequebob
1488 posts
Jan 15, 2011
7:55 AM
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The thing that the average player doesn't understand is that once you begin using them, you do need to woodshed with these harps to help further refine your playing technique, regardless of one's playing level and that is clearly a learning curve I went thru personally, as I had thought I didn't play hard, and found out I had to dial things back even more, but the tradeoff from woodshedding to this was that I was then more easily able to get even MORE out of a stock harp than I ever did before.
The average player too often just looks at the price and thinks customs are just a more tweaked stock harp, but customs are FAR from that, and these are specifically tailored to your playing style and no one else's.
A lot of players don't know their own playing style particularly well and also don't properly communicate what their needs are to customizers and so it's no surprise that there may be a problem.
In another forum, I got a private message from a player who bought a custom from Joe Filisko and tho it played great, it didn't overblow well, I asked him "Did you make damned sure you told him FIRST before you went ahead and ordered it because the setup for an overblow player is vastly different than one for a traditional player is gonna be."
He answered very typically, "I didn't know." He just basically went for the lowest possible price, and at the time, Joe was charging more for the overblow setup, and too many players just don't understand the different work involved and just go for the cheapest, being essentially penny wide and pund foolish.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harpwrench
417 posts
Jan 15, 2011
8:11 AM
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Thank you Adam for the correction and kudos.
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Joe
www.spiersharmonicas.com
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hvyj
1101 posts
Jan 15, 2011
8:15 AM
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"A lot of players don't know their own playing style particularly well and also don't properly communicate what their needs are to customizers and so it's no surprise that there may be a problem."
By the time I ordered customs I had developed a particular style of play and had very specific preferences about what I wanted from a harp.
The reason my first couple of harps from Buddha required adjustment had to do with reed set up. I play with a pretty strong attack and don't OB so the gapping wasn't right for me. And this was my fault for not accurately describing my playing to Chris. After we set up a Skype session and he HEARD me play, he immediately knew what to do and everything was smooth sailing from that point.
"The thing that the average player doesn't understand is that once you begin using them, you do need to woodshed with these harps to help further refine your playing technique, regardless of one's playing level...but the tradeoff from woodshedding to this was that I was then more easily able to get even MORE out of a stock harp than I ever did before."
This is consistent with my experience. It took me a couple of months to get to the point that i was able to handle my Buddha harps well enough to play them up to their potential. And YES, that process refined my technique so that I am playing OOB harps much better. Your technique gets refined as you learn to play your customs because you learn exactly what it takes to make the harp do what you want it to do BECAUUSE YOU ARE NO LONGER FIGHTING THE HARP as you try make it do what you want it to do. So your technique gets refined and you start to play better on ANY harp.
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Greyowlphotoart
369 posts
Jan 15, 2011
8:43 AM
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@hvyi
I know that you are, like myself, fond of Suzuki harps, particularly the Hammonds. Are you as comfortable playing these harps as the Buddhas? And as a matter of interest what make were your Bhudda harps and on what occasions do you use them?
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 8:43 AM
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Littoral
251 posts
Jan 15, 2011
8:44 AM
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I read everything and learn a whole lot from these conservations.
VERY much appreciated.
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kudzurunner
2247 posts
Jan 15, 2011
8:47 AM
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I only fight the occasional OTS MB that sucks. I don't fight the majority of them, since those don't suck but actually play quite well and sound great. I just play them hard and have fun. I never clean them. I adjust them when they need adjusting. When the few adjustments that I know how to make no longer bring them sufficiently back in line, I throw them away. In that last respect, I'm very old school--in the direct lineage from Big Walter, actually. I was going to say "Sam Myers," but he clearly never threw away a flatted-out harp. He saved those for his recording sessions.
To each his own is my attitude. I'm happy to put up with people who never overblow, or who have never tried and enjoyed custom harps, even though I overblow and have tried and enjoyed custom harps. I'm even happy to put up with people who are convinced that custom harps are the only way to go, or that chromatic harps are the only reasonable instrument for playing jazz, even though I disagree with THEM. Some people clean their harps. Weird! But I put up with them--indeed, welcome the perspective they bring.
Big tent here at MBH.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 8:50 AM
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hvyj
1103 posts
Jan 15, 2011
9:16 AM
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@Greyowlphotoart: You ask a very interesting question. In certain respects. i like my Suzuki Hammonds better than my custom Buddha harps, BUT, the overall response and precision on the bends is far superior on the customs, so those have become my performing set and I carry my Hammonds as spares.
My Buddha Harps are made with GM combs and covers and have composite sandwich style combs. Tunng is A442 pure ET. i have the back of the covers opened except on the high keys (Eb, E, F and F#).
Although the tone is fuller and louder on my Buddha harps than you get from an OBB Hohner harp, because they are Hohners, they have the open tone that is characteristic of Hohners, so they sound like Hohners which i don't particularly like. My Hammonds have a somewhat darker, more focused tone, which i prefer.
Since custom harps have tighter tolerances, they tend to sound brighter (I think harpwrench said this is due to embossing) but this makes them more responsive. This also makes them a little more susceptible to jamming if a foreign particle or dried saliva gets stuck in a reed. (Of course this also happens with OOB harps, too, but i think customs are a little more sensitive in this regard.) So every now and then i need to pull out a Hammond from my spare set in the middle of a performance and i don't mind--i still enjoy playing my Hammonds and i love the dark, smooth tone i get out of them.
But the response and precision of the customs is clearly superior. The difference is especially noticeable in the lower keys like G, Ab and A--the response is very lively (much more so than an OOB harp in those keys) and you don't have to collapse a lung to get the low end draw bends. But it is the PRECISION with which I am able to hit ALL bends in all keys on pitch with consistent accuracy and minimal effort that makes the biggest difference when i play the customs.
So these days i play my Buddha harps all the time for performance and practice, and carry my Hammonds as my spare set.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 10:45 AM
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Mojokane
226 posts
Jan 15, 2011
9:30 AM
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..this is why I joined this forum, and have become a steady observer/participant. It's paragraphs like these, which I believe, says it all about the value of paying more for a good harp.
Eloquently stated...
"But the response and precision of the customs is clearly superior. the difference is especially noticeable in the lower keys like G, Ab and A--the response is very lively and you don't have to collapse a lung to get the low end draw bends. But it is the PRECISION with which I am able to hit ALL bends in all keys on pitch with consistent accuracy that makes the biggest difference when i play the customs. "
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harpwrench
418 posts
Jan 15, 2011
9:35 AM
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To be honest I'd rather play a stock OOTB Marine Band (for what I play) than "customs" from most other builders I've sampled. Not knocking them, it's just the truth. It's very easy to mess up some inherent qualities that I value in a stock MB when you go jacking with it to get rid of the undesirable ones or make "improvements". So 90% of the time I could be quite happy right along side of you Adam, just adjust the gaps a little when needed, tune it well, and match your playing force to the requirements of the harmonica. Lips heal, and get tougher. When the aliens visited Mr. Hohner and advised him on reed dimensions/platform, he was able to create a harmonica that has stood the test of time and has been hard to improve upon in the opinions of many players worldwide. LOL
You touched on one thing that's usually tough to do on a stock one, and that's hitting the descending OB notes. It's one thing to go from a draw note to the OB on that hole, and quite another to go from a 6 blow to a 4 or 5 OB straight on, or go from a blow note directly to the OB on that hole. It costs money to get that without having a "chokey" harp. 6OB is easy, the rest get more challenging. My case has harps for that, and they'll take a lot of air, but I still carry harps that aren't going to jam up on stage no matter how hard I play.
The fact that we're able to do what we do on one at all is so far removed from the original application of the instrument, and quite amazing to me. It's cool to be able to help others with their goals, but I will not knowingly sell someone the high-$$ harp if I discover they don't need it. I'm just a mechanic trying to meet people's needs.
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Joe
www.spiersharmonicas.com
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Greyowlphotoart
370 posts
Jan 15, 2011
9:41 AM
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@ hvyi. Thanks for that full answer. I have been toying with the idea of buying a customised harp to see how I get along with it. I have been fortunate enough to try out some Bhudda harps and Harpwrench harps from a nearby friend and they were very impressive.
I have looked at a lot of different out of the box harps since I started playing again and to be honest I like them all in their own way Hohners and Suzukis alike (not tried Seydels yet) and since I have started to adjust my own harps playability has improved.
My dilemna is that a decent csutomised harp is bloody expensive and I have to be absolutely certain that it is worth the extra outlay before proceeding.
I don't want to spend countless hours refining my own customising techniques as I rather be playing. You do learn to adapt to the individual playing qualities of any given harp even the same make in different keys and this is not a big problem and is what I was accustomed to in the past. I even like my first and new Marine band which is slightly harder to play but still has an interesting and pleasing tone.
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hvyj
1106 posts
Jan 15, 2011
9:58 AM
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Well, i guess it depends on priorities. i really enjoy playing and i play out quite a bit whether gigging or just sitting in. I get a lot of fulfillment out of doing it, so it's important to me.
The guys I do paying gigs with are all full time professional musicians some of whom have degrees in music and I am expected to play with a certain level of competence and precision that i find easier to achieve with consistency using custom harps. I am not a full time professional musician. I consider myself fortunate to be able to work with musicians of this caliber so I try hard to step up my game and not screw up. Actually, I'm probably even more fortunate that these guys happen to like my playing and are as tolerant as they are.
Anyway, i got a set of custom harps to help me perform up to expectations and I'm glad i did.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 10:09 AM
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nacoran
3658 posts
Jan 15, 2011
11:02 AM
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Adam, before you throw out all those busted harps, check out some of the customizers pages. Several of them will trade a shiny new custom for a handful of busted harps for parts.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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Miles Dewar
602 posts
Jan 15, 2011
11:29 AM
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Marine Bands are not a Horrible harmonica.
No matter what harp you have you will still have to make minor adjustments with your technique to achieve the desired effects.
Like using an "F" harp and then using a "Bb".
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---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
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walterharp
518 posts
Jan 15, 2011
9:08 PM
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slightly off topic,
why do custom harps sound brassy but are tuned very exactly? I can hear it with my customs, but am not quite sure what lends a brassy tone rather than the classic slightly sharp 442 tone that is associated with harps like the LO
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Kingley
1409 posts
Jan 15, 2011
11:40 PM
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Walterharp - The "brassy tone" you refer to is caused by embossing.
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Todd Parrott
339 posts
Jan 15, 2011
11:57 PM
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Joe Spiers harps = perfection.
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barbequebob
1496 posts
Jan 18, 2011
8:58 AM
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I'll say one thing about the newer OOTB MB's, is that what they're putting out is FAR better quality stuff than what was being put out from 1980-1995.
One thing that many players NEVER seem to learn is that even from the same manufacturer, when you go from model to model, you do need to spend time with them to get "acquainted" with all of its quirks (they ALL have some) and then learn to make sublt adjustments and avoid the "one size fits all" mentality that too many players seem to have.
From personal experience even with less than the very best customizers is that once you start playing them, you may not want to go back to playing stock stuff ever again, but when you first get them, you do need to woodshed with them to get used to how they are ultra responsive and need VERY LITTLE effort and force to do anything and once you get used to doing that, you're refining your playing technique and later, when you do go back to playing stock stuff, you will actually find yourself getting much more out of the stock stuff than you did previously.
I've saved hundreds of blown harps for later use over the years for doing things like reed transplants, etc., and having done a little bit of the tweaking and then some, I really appreciate the time and labor that goes into what a custom harp is.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
990 posts
Jan 18, 2011
9:11 AM
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@walterharp,
I don't get what you mean by brassy and tuning. I find most customs to sound more focused and have more presence than a stock harp. The custom MB's I have are all like that regardless of the builder.
I find OOTB MB's to sound loser and duller. There are many ways to make a "custom" harp. Some people go out of their way to do mods that make a definite impact on the tone of the harp, but I don't have any customs that sounded dark, muted, or warm compared to stock. They all sound louder, brighter, and snappier.
Regarding choking reeds - I never have a problem with this on any harp as I don't play hard or have a very hard attack, but I would suggest that one learn to play any harp as effortlessly as possible. Although a custom might be less likely to choke, it is also going to respond faster anyways. I would guess that some think as long as they aren't choking reeds they aren't playing too hard, but they still are.
I have received a lot of requests to replace cracked 4 draw and blow reeds on Buddha harps. Me thinks this may be a cause.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 1/11/11
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2011 9:16 AM
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chromaticblues
478 posts
Jan 18, 2011
9:32 AM
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@Walterharp
Yeah I know what your talking about. After very tight embossing I can hear the difference in the sound. It becomes a little brassier. I can hear these highend overtones. The first few harps I embossed I did not like the tone change at all. I finally gave in to it because a well embossed perfectly set up harp is so much easier to play and has allowed me to get to a point I don't think I could have without modified harps. The thing about custom harps is because nobody wants to share there seccrets people build them different ways and one harp can sound very different from a harp built by someone else. They will also react to your way of play differently.
I think the biggest thing about getting good at playing harp is find something you like, stick to it and practice. If you get to a level where you just can't get any better then try a custom from somebody.
Not all custom harps are going to be mind blowing.
Not everybody knows how to play the harp well enough to get thier mind blown! Its not for everyone.
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hvyj
1130 posts
Jan 18, 2011
9:41 AM
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I think the custom harps i have as well as other tight tolerance harps like the Suzuki Fabulous do sound a little brighter/brassier. I think it's more obvious on Hohners (my customs are made from GMs) because Hohners tend to have a more open tone (more overtones) anyway.
This is one reason I still enjoy my Hammonds--they have a darker, smoother tone.
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HarpNinja
991 posts
Jan 18, 2011
9:43 AM
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I don't get what brassier means, obviously. It sounds like from walterharp it makes the harp duller, but from hvyj that it makes the harp brighter?
My experience is they are generally brighter - or at least have more presence...in a good way. You can make them sound darker/smoother without sounding duller (like when you add wax), but IME, they aren't as good for OBs and can sometimes not have as good of a reaction.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 1/11/11
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MP
1264 posts
Jan 18, 2011
10:59 AM
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@Adam,
since you just throw away your old harps, i have a proposition.
good for you, me, and the environment:)
just put 'em in a shoe box and when you have several,tell me how much you want for 'em and i'll buy them for parts. (i like 1896 reed plates for my donor bank).
now, i don't really need parts, but i hate to see good brass go to trash. :)
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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hvyj
1134 posts
Jan 18, 2011
11:13 AM
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@HarpNinja: Oh yes, I mean BRIGHTER and in the case of Hohners maybe a little raspier.
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snakes
621 posts
Jan 18, 2011
11:39 AM
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For what it is worth I'd like to give Joe Spier's harps my personal thumbs up. I currently have my second one (key of D) on order.
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snakes in Seattle
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HarpNinja
996 posts
Jan 18, 2011
11:48 AM
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Joe's harps are amazing, for sure!
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 1/11/11
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Todd Parrott
343 posts
Jan 18, 2011
11:58 AM
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Joe is a perfectionist and a true professional. If you ever have the slightest thing that needs adjustment, or if anything is not 100%, he's fantastic and fast in making an adjustment and getting the harp back to you, and usually the entire harp will come back playing even better.
Now when I order a harp from him he knows exactly what I want and it comes 110% perfect.
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Sam Pai Kenpo
62 posts
Jan 18, 2011
12:46 PM
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Joe Spier's harps are outstanding. I have a Special 20 Stage II in C that is my favorite harp and a D on order that should be ready soon.
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7LimitJI
328 posts
Jan 18, 2011
3:08 PM
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I've finished embossing a couple of harps recently.Put about 6 hours into them.
Just to see what, if any differences they made for an old school tongue blocker.
I'm an aircraft engineer to trade and have been messing about with harps for about 20 years.
Swapping cover plates and combs on various types of harp, replacing and tuning reeds,drilling ,tapping etc.Even made an aluminium comb for a MB !
That's my cv to show my hands are connected to my brain!
Embossing does alter the tone, to me, significantly, it goes brighter,brassier, has more presence.
I prefer the standard tone.
The difference is like going from fully enclosed cover plates to open end style like on a marine band.
I've got a copy of Rupert Oyslers dvd and in it he talks about tip scooping to darken the tone.
So I tip scooped the two corners at the swinging end.
This mod allows the reed to run with an extremely small gap.
Sure enough this darkened the tone again, so that it now sounds slightly darker than a standard Marine band.
It also dampened the resonance, a lot.
Again I prefer the standard harp.
As far as being more responsive, my style of playing doesn't need it.
I tongue block 99.9% and slap a lot.I'm not a soft player,but don't blow nearly as hard as most of my peers.
A sealed,well arced and gapped harp performs perfectly for me.
I enjoy working on my harps and enjoyed the experiment.
My conclusion is:-
It took me a long time to get to where I am in regards to setting up my harps.
I have the skill and patience required to do it.
If you don't have the skill or don't want to put in the time,want to overblow, or would just rather play.
Buy a custom.
PS
In Oyslers dvd he promotes curving up the tip of the reed,and having the rest of the reed almost below the plate. It didn't help me.
I read on here about straightening the reeds and have found this suits me far better.
PPS. I've ordered a harp from Joe and am looking forward to receiving it. After all if I'm going to get a bench mark, might as well get one of the best!!
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2011 3:10 PM
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