I wrote a long post about his at the Buddha harp thread, but it was locked in the meantime so it went to cyberspace.
What I wanted to say is that Chris told me in our last chat that he doesn't even tweak his own harps to full chromaticism - e.g. 1 OB and OD's he don't generally setup for. He had some different harps for songs that needed OD's.
I noticed that the harps he made for me (both fully tweaked), weren't that great regarding the OB's. My own harps are lot easier to do OB's with. But that's probably a matter of anatomy and playing technique. The reason I bought the harps from him was to get benchmark for my own work. The result of that was that my OB skills seems to be good and not surprisingly, the air tightness I could improve. Well, I'm not going to spend hours and hours for just embossing as he did, and as I mostly tweak Sp20's I can't get to the level of air tightness with the combs either. I'm fine with that.
Harps are just harps. The Lean development way is to use as little time as possible for the customization work and as much as possible to the actual playing (if you don't plan a career as customizer). Adam uses very little effort for the harp tweaking. Just do the mandatory work so that you can achieve what you want and that's it.
Don't take so it seriously, it's supposed to be fun!
I think that we sometimes spend many hours on arcing, regapping or embossing (or on discussing about it) and we forget about the most important thing: music. We should have a GOOD instrument, but it's only a tool to create melodies and emotions. I have respect for quality and playability of customs (I tried a few, Budda's harps also). But in fact I don't need a custom harmonica to play good/better. In my opinion WE decide about level of our music, not the instruments (maybe in 10%). That's my two cents...
With the exception of really top tier overblow harmonica type stuff, I think most players can have a great instrument in less than an hour.
I also think many custom harmonicas are a labor of love and an art form. I would never suggest trying to build super advanced instruments if your heart is in playing/gigging/practicing. There is setting up an instrument to play well and then there is all the other stuff...and, IMO, much of the time consuming tasks discussed are often not necessary. For example, does rounding the comb of a MB really make it better? I would go so far as to say even opening the backs of the harps could be considered low priority.
Bart, as much as I love your playing, I have to disagree to a certain extent, though. There are definite limitations to OOTB harmonicas in general. If you overblow, but the harp won't let you do it, that is an issue. If the 3 draw is too hard to bend, that is an issue too. Same with blow bends...I am not saying one can't play well, but the instrument does do some dictating and that is part of what makes an instrument unique.
I am also not saying you need a full-out custom harp. I think arcing and gapping solves a huge majority of any issues, and can take just a few minutes to take care of. I mean, there is a reason we aren't all playing $5 harmonicas.
And I am not trying to by snippy, but I wonder how many players at a level like yours play OOTB harps and how they would sound if they didn't? That isn't a knock on anyone, but most of the "best" players on the scene today don't play OOTB harps. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
Wait! I have an idea! Play 1 harp in a rack while you do adjust the other one! (I know you'll have to stop playing when it's time to plink reeds and stuff, but think of how much more you could get done!) :)
Amen to this thread! I've only been using OBs for a few months. In my experience it takes about a half an hour to gap the reeds to get 4,5,6 OBs on an OOTB GM. When I get a stubborn harp that I can't get right, then I use that harp to practice on for a couple weeks. Sooner than later my technique makes the stubborn harp just as usable as the "easy" harps I gapped.
My 7 year old hatch back takes me to gigs across the country just fine. I don't "NEED" a pimped out tour bus. If I had the fame and money then maybe I'd buy one, but I sure as hell aint going to build one.
It's all about comfort, time, money, and most important priorities.
I just want to pipe in on this thread to comment on nacoran and Jim's posts. I bought a rack a few months back with the idea that I'd try to learn to play harp while strumming chords on my CBG. I npw find that I'm using the rack more just to play harp while I do other stuff than with my guitar!!! I use it to play while I'm typing (especially while writing papers), while I clean up around the house, while I'm driving on long road trips, and yes jim, I use it while cooking! I love to cook, and in my family, I do all the cooking. That hour to hour and a half that I'm in the kitchen everyday has now been opened up to harp playing! The rack is great for this, as you most certainly do NOT want to be touching your harp with Salmonella hands. :)
As for the original point of this thread. I could not agree more. apskarp and HarpNinja are right on. I learned this for myself sometime ago. I put about an hours worth of work into my own personal harps, spread out over several 10-15 minute sessions. Besides a very few "standard practices" such as flat-sanding and gapping to my playing style, I only address specific problems on each harp. For example, these days I never emboss a slot unless that's only way I can get that reed to do what I want.
For the record, apskarp is right about Chris's personal harps. They were almost stock Golden Melodies, covered in saliva crust, and almost never taken apart. Chris had done a mild set up on them years ago, and basically had never worked on them since that. Yet he could still play beautiful music on them. It was because he had superb, near perfect technique. At the same time, he said that everything he could play was definitely much much easier to do on one of his high end harps. He just spent all his time making harps for others rather than for himself. ---------- == I S A A C ==
@HarpNinja, I understand your point of view. I never used harmonicas for 5$, because is just a toy not really instrument. To be honest I regape 1st and 5th hole (sometimes all reeds), because my harps (1847 Classic )play well OOTB! So I can concentrate on my music.
I know, every custom harmonica is unique (like Brodur or Sandoval), it's nice to have instrument like this.
But we could buy a great instrument (overbending friendly) for lower price in short time (like Pro Master, Golden Blow, 1847 as well). I just see a trend to have so many custom as possible :o) It's good for all (buyer and seller), but I think that we moved music, improvisation, feelings to 2nd or 3rd place. Sometimes my very beginner students want a high-end custom model. OK, but I have one rhetorical question: what for? For prestige or snobbery? It's silly for me :o)
Guys I don't want to put my foot in it. This is only my point of view...
bart- same reason every 16 y.o. kid wants a ford mustang: looks cool, preforms great. the amc pacer got me around just as well as any other car could have.
beginners (and some of us that are well past that point) get the thought in our heads that a better harp, mic or amp will make us sound as great as we think we should.
I bought a Rupert Oylser's DVD and Richard Sleigh's tool kit & book when I began playing, I now have the knowledge and tools to do the 'mandatory work' on my harp so that they play well enough for me.
I bought a custom harp for point of reference, it was nice to play, it didn't make my playing any better and I don't think a listener would be able to hear the difference between me playing a custom harp and a standard harp. If I was an advanced player who liked to play lots of fast runs with overblows a custom harp might be more of an advantage to me.
I do as little work on my harps as I can, I play marine bands and I prefere them when they have an un-sealed comb, I will only seal the comb if I have had a problem with it swelling.
I also like my marine bands rebuilt with screws, but it is a job I hate doing, so I wont do it unless I have had to tae the harp apart in the first place.
I think you can go a long way with some basic tunning, light embossing and gapping.
Custom harps are expensive. I might need to work for 10 - 15 hours to earn the money to buy a custom harp, I am sure that if I spent 10 - 15 hours working on a single harp I would have a great harp to suit my needs, but I think that time would be better spent playing.
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2011 4:36 PM
Very interesting thread. We've gone from the dissecting Master Buddhas harps with intensity to this customizing is cool but who need every reed arced every slot embossed.
I think if you really want to play jazz at a high level custom harp is necessary. I have the out of the box by Howard Levy and it would be hard to it without a custom harp that can overblow. His stuff has standard notation and is played on a C 10 hole. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Well it may be a matter of degree. I don't OB. But, the precision of the bends and the ease with which the different bends can be played on pitch with accuracy is superior on a custom harp and makes a difference in the instrument's performance and responsiveness to technique. It's just a whole lot easier to bend with accuracy on a custom harp and, IMHO, that makes a significant practical difference.
What about a "high end" OOTB? Like the Seydel 1847 Noble or the Harrison? Is Harrison a harp manufacturer or at the extreme end of customizing?? ----------
Just when I got a paddle, they added more water to the creek.
Your highest level of work (4, Mercury) is offered for the GM, MB, MBD and MBC. Once you have performed your serices do these different models come out "the same", I mean all the same good harp or is there still a bit of the origional model in the finished harp.
Does this question make sense??? ----------
Just when I got a paddle, they added more water to the creek.
Just to make clear, I do work with my harps. The procedure that I do with all my harps that I want to perform good (ie. the keys I use while gigging or practicing OB stuff) is as follows:
1) basic gapping (+arcing) 3) embossing (5-10 mins per reed) 4) chamfering and rough tuning
optionally, if OB's are still hard
5) wax the reeds and make fine tuning + gapping
The whole process is 1-2 hours and I usually do it in few days time frame so it's like 30mins/day. After this I just work with the individual reeds if they don't perform well. With plastic comb Sp20's there are no comb work to be done and I can also use Turbo lids which makes it easy to use coverplates while tuning.
If I'd make harps for somebody else and charged for it, then I would put more effort to it and do some other stuff also, but that seems to be enough for my harps and the OB's are really easy for me to get.
Perhaps I'll do video blog with some harp that I'll work in the future...?
Here's some info on my experiments with one of my A-harps:
marine band 1896 were apparently a very good ootb harp a long time ago,but have gone downhill over time-but mb1896 have so much potential that they turn out to be great custom harps with improvement to the wood comb and replacing those awful nails with screws-by customizing them maybe they are closer to the quality they were when little walter played them
I don't understand why more people don't play the Deluxe and Crossover. Although it is fun for some to rebuild the original. Much of the cost of a custom MB is getting the harp set up with screws and taking care of the comb. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
They will still sound different from each other. Depending on what one wants out of the harp, the tone can go from staying the same to being different, but the basic sound will always be there.
It's my understanding that Hohner will soon discontinue the use of nails and move to screws on the classic Marine Band, for both the reed plates and the cover plates.
I must say that I really like the Crossover, though I am not a Marine Band player.
If they could do that and keep it priced cheaper than the current GM, that'd be way sweet.
All the Crossovers I've tried were better OOTB then the MB's I've tried. I think that can be attributed to the open cover plates and better arcing/gapping.
A Marine Band does not have to have screws to make it play well! That has nothing to do with it! Its just easier to take apart. THAT IS ALL! I can make GREAT 1896 MB's with nails. If you build it right you don't have to take it apart! Playing the harp at a high level (no matter what kind of music it is) it is easier after a harp is embossed. A customized harp is a different harp. It doesn't matter how good you are. It will be easier to play. I can build a overblow Crossover harp in 6 to 10 hours. OH and for $125! Not everybody needs a harp like that. Most people do not! The $75 HooDoo Sp 20 is good enough for 90% of pro harp players. For $100 I make Sp 20 with a wooden comb or a 1896 MB. These are TOP NOTCH customs. I don't waste my time doing things. I have figured out how to do a few things faster. That way I can sell harps for a reasonable price (and I will not cash your check untill I start working on your harps)!!!! This thread is starting to sound like custom harps are overrated! OR you have to spend $300 to get a great harp! Niether of those things are true. HooDoo Harps! Changing the way things are done!
I disagree that the tone of this thread has been either negative towards customs or that it has implied that $300 customs are the only option.
I have read several good points about the pros and cons of customs and why one would purchase them, etc.
I am in total agreement that customs play better and that can make things easier/better/different for the player. I am also in total agreement that a variety of customs and their options is important to have access to and consider.
I am intrigued by some of your comments about time and pricing and changing the way things are done. FWIW, I think a Crossover can be set up to be a great overblow harp in much less time than 6-10 hours, but obviously, that is dependent on a lot of factors.
Personally, I don't care if someone feels compelled to buy a custom or not. There are pros and cons and reasons why one should or shouldn't. I think for those wanting the playability of a custom without the time and know how to set them up, then they are an option. Wanna judge your own work against one? Fine.
But generally, they are overrated when it comes to the notion that one has to play them or one's own harps will for sure be inferior, blah, blah, blah. They totally make a difference in how you play, often provide excellent customer service, provide a substantial investment for the purchaser, and offer many more pros.
However, if it isn't your bag, then it isn't your thing.
The only difference is the time spent on adjustments (provided you know how to do it and have the playing technique).
I mean you will not care is scooping is done this or that way. In the end, what matters is now it plays. In YOUR hands. By the end of my "custom harp uncut" blog you'll see that minimal number of changes (but with maximum amount of them applied) will make a great instrument. ---------- Free Harp Learning Center
I thought this would be a good time and place to ask a question I was wondering about. Do any harp builders or customizers do personalized hand etched cover plates ? ---------- My YouTube Channel
I guess - depending on the design and the payment :) Theoretically I can get blank covers for any seydel model, get a dremel tool, and engrave something. I can draw, there shouldn't be any big difference. ---------- Free Harp Learning Center
Gonna throw my .25 in there guys.....I played a lot of OOTB harps from many different manufacturers. MB / SP20/Seydel/LO/ Blues Harp /Huang. About a year and a half ago I decided to do some research into custom harps. Now...I could not convince my wife that spending over 200 on a harp was a good thing so....I went with a less expensive ($95.00)model. I had no idea what to expect. I waited for that box to come in the mail like a kid at Christmas ! Well, when I got it I could not believe the difference. Not leaky, responsive. It played so much better and the difference was VERY noticeable. That was it..... I needed more........so I put together my own tool kit and learned how to do the work myself.....I had some success....but did not have the time or patience to keep it up. So....now ....all of my most used harps are customs. A couple from Dude Harp, a few from Deak Harp (with extra MOJO), and one crossover done by cromaticblues. They all play great. I do not use overblows.....just give me a nice, tight, responsive whistle. I did just finish a sp20 with the tip that Joe (I think) gave up a week or so ago......works great and it's in my box. You can get a harp to sound great with some time and energy. It's not rocket science. But if you don't have the patience or the time, there are some great folks out there putting out some very nice harps. FEED THE HARP ECONOMY !!! ----------
I'm certainly no expert but the ootb harps, for example a GM key of A I got for Christmas and other MBs, are not that great. Some of the draws are not that responsive and seem to be leaky to me and are hard to bend. I don't have the confidence to take it apart and fool with the gapping, I'm afraid I'll make it worse. On the other hand I've got a few MBs that were really good, responsive, and easy to bend. For example I've got a Eb that bends easily. I've never had a new Sp20 and I think that will be my next model to try. If I could afford custom harps or had the knowledge and skill to work on them by myself I would go that route. ---------- My YouTube Channel
Ok, I'm a newbie to this board and have only been playing about 6 years... This thread has me very curious, though. I'm pretty good with my hands and due to the economy I have a little more free time these days. So now y'all have me wondering if there is somewhere I can go to learn how to do all of these cool sounding modifications you're talking about here... Easier to bend and overblow sounds like a good thing.
I know it won't make me a better player, but right now I hear things in my head that I know I'm supposed to be able to do but are very hard to accomplish on my OOTB harps. I have a number of harps I don't currently use that I wouldn't feel awful about screwing up if I did it wrong the first time... Thanks for any guidance...
@Baltoblues...Joe's vids are great !! Also do a google search on "Mel Bay's Comb Over" He did three or four articles. And also search "Elk river" custom harp videos. There is a TON of info out there you just got to find it !! OH !! Welcome to this dysfunctional family !!! LOL Paul ----------
I see this thread has degenerated itself to just another "custom harp building battle thread". The original idea was and still is, that custom harps are overrated!
If you can't play the stuff you want with your harp then you should buy better ones or make some adjustments. The basic adjustments are really easy to learn if you just are willing to put some time on it (not much). If not, you can pay somebody to do that.
But my experience is that I don't need anybody else to build me another harp anymore as I can build good harps myself - harps that are better for me to play than top customizer harps. I've tried few harps from two different customizers and my own harps are the best ones regarding the OB's. Actually yesterday when I was recording some songs with my band I went back to my own harps also with non-OB songs. They are simply the easiest ones to play for me as I build them exactly as I want. And as said, the amount of work I need to put in then is just 1-2 hours max..
When you knowingly post an opinion and try to state it as an absolute on a forum where you know people will disagree with you and the topic has been brought up endlessly already, what else would you expect?
That is great that your harps work well for you regarding overblowing. There is much more to a good harp then the ability to overblow. In fact, many players don't overblow and see advantages to custom harps (whether self made or purchased). A list of some of the most obvious variables that influence how one my receive a harp could include:
Tone Reaction Presence Ease of Bending Comfort Etc.
Making a great overblow harp and a great overall harp are too different things. This is compounded when someone does not play with a light touch. I know I don't play hard, but I was shocked to see how lightly Alex Palcin plays. I mean, he plays SOFT. I am sure he can get away playing harps that are set with very tight action and not have any issues. Then there are players who play hard and if they OB, they don't "finesse" the note but rather slam it like a hard blues bend. This may come from the mouth of the stomach. I would wager that most OB players who are either just into it or only do a little bit do it that way. They hit the OB very hard - which requires a different feel from the harp. To even further complicate matters, is the player using OBs as passing notes or are they treated like other notes? Boris has mentioned this and it is something I have spent the last year expanding on, and that is the ability to sustain and bend OBs/ODs. Set-up for this can be different than if you just need to pop a note out. It is more time consuming and difficult to achieve without using a foreign substance or changing the tone of the harmonica. I play almost all GM's, and I do NOT want to make them sound any mellower or darker!
I remember talking dampening over with Chris a number of times when he first went pro with building. He had mentioned that the best OB harps had reeds that didn't ring out for very long. If you plink a reed on a stock harp, pay attention to how long it rings. Well, he was 100% right...but what he didn't tell me is you lose the original tone and that may not be what you want to happen. I learned that the hard way, it was another riddle he had given me, lol. I find that dampening a GM makes it too dark. Dampening a MB makes it not sound like a MB, IMHO. Dampening a Sp20 makes it feel flat to me - less responsive mellower.
There is also the possibility that many other people would not prefer your harps to others. That isn't a big deal an no one, including builders should be threatened by any of this.
One huge benefit for someone reading this post, or some of the other posts about customs vs OOTB is the ability to read many opinions and points. Hopefully, a reader can sort through the various opinions to find the most informed or credible. Honestly, there are people who post here that I always read 100% of what they say very carefully as I truly value just about anything they can type related to music and harmonica.
Some might read your comments and agree, while others may not. This thread hasn't degenerated compared to some of the other threads on this forum, and you have been here long enough to know that. Just because people have different opinions on the matter doesn't mean this thread was a bust.
@apskarp I'm not trying to run your thread thru the ringer like so many threads end up, but I do disagree a little with what you said because before I started making harps for people I built great harps for myself as well. After building 50 harps in last 3 months I know they are better now and its easier to do it because I do it everyday. I have a hard time believing that if I heard you play and we spent a little time together that I couldn't make a harp for you better than what you do. Thats how I feel about the subject and more often than not I'm going to right! Maybe you are right I don't, but you don't either is my point!
Waht I wrote was in context. There has been lots of discussion and anxiety etc around custom harps here especially after Chris went away.
What I meant to say is that you shouldn't take it so seriously. Custom harps are fine and all that but playing harp should be fun. What I have learned during the last year is that custom harps aren't that different to OOTB harps. It's really nothing to get obsessed about.
There was a good video from Adam where he tried out custom harp - it was better than OOTB of course but not so much that one would have thought..
I didn't listen to all your videos, but I did make it through 5 of them. I agree that you should be spending your time practicing instead of worrying about custom harmonicas.
Please don't lock this thread!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought from the fellows comments he was more advanced than the video shows. I'm glad I'm not choosing a surgeon from MBH LOL ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
The vast majority of players do not need custom harmonicas. I'll say it again in case you missed it the first time. The vast majority of players DO NOT NEED CUSTOM HARMONICAS!
Just learn to gap them correctly. That's the single biggest thing you can do to make a harmonica play better.
Buying custom harmonicas for most players is like buying a Bugatti Veyron for driving. You don't need it. It's a pointless act that just results in you losing your hard earned cash. For most folk a VW Golf will do just everything you need it too.
Thank's for the honest feedback harpwrench, aka Joe Spiers. You have good videos about gapping where you tell people that it is more important for most people to learn to play and not to worry about customizing.
Although I'm surprised that you appeared a little bit evil as you have always presented yourself very positive way here. I guess it's because I was stepping on your "professional harp customizer" toes in this thread.
I'm sorry for that. (No need to lock this thread on my side, admins.)
Well, as I said in my earlier post, precision of bending is far superior on a custom harp. I don't OB. But I've been sitting in with jazz bands regularly playing some simple jazz material. Nothing very difficult or that I would need OBs to play, BUT in order to play some of the heads correctly I MUST hit certain bends accurately on pitch.
This is MUCH easier to do with consistently precise accuracy using custom harps. For blues this may not be as important as a certain imprecision is part of the blues idiom anyway. But I don't think I would be able to intonate the bends I need to play jazz heads as consistently well on an OOB harp.
