It has nothing to do with the "reed" per se, but rather the relationship between the pitch of the blow and draw reeds in the same hole.
The 5 draw is only a semitone higher in pitch than the 5 blow, so you can only bend it down a little more than a quarter tone. The 4 and 6 draws are a wholetone higher than the 4 and 6 blows respectively, so you can bend them each down a little more than a semitone.
As Issac explains it. That's why I have broken a few 5 draws, playing double-stops with the 4 draw, which WILL bend more. As for why it only bends the 1/4 semitone, maybe its length is the 'fine line' where the reed can't swing any more and still sound? ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 1:33 PM
On an unvalved harmonica, a bend is a physical interaction of both reeds in the hole. The possible bends lying between the pitches of the blow and draw reed.
Its do with how far apart the blow and draw reed are in semi-tones.No bend available on holes 5 and 7 as they are only one semi-tone apart. But you can flatten the draw note somewhat. Maybe 1/4 tone?
7LimitJI, Thanks, I often thought of why, too. Sounds like the solution to the problem, for me. I like the idea to "flatten the draw 5 somewhat", as much as can safely be done.....and be done. Will it effect anything in a negative way?
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 2:49 PM
@ mojokane-yes, it'll break! After time, any way. I've snapped a few, and it has to be from double stops with the 4 draw. I seldom bend the 5 draw alone. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 3:11 PM
I do it regularly as a double stop and on its own. It breaks with the same regularity as any other reed.
Just looked at my harps, seems I'm heavy on the 4 blow, as I've replaced 3 on different harps. A blow 2 and a freakish draw 8! A few blow 5 in the past too.
The harp I have most trouble with is the key of D for going flat and breaking reeds.Think I've broken the 4 and 5 blow more on that than any other key.
Just ordered a Seydel 1847 in D to see if lasts any longer than the Marine Bands. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 3:14 PM
Bending the 5 draw slightly on the I chord when playing in second position gives you a "harmonic 7th" or "blues 7th" which sounds really cool. this is a blue note, which, like the "blue third' is only used on the I chord and is not available on a piano keyboard.
You can get a deeper bend on a "country-tuned" or "melody-maker" harp where there's a whole tone difference between 5 blow and 5 draw. ---------- http://www.timeistight.com
You can always bend the higher of the two reeds in a hole--blow or draw--down almost as far as the lower of the two reeds.
On holes 1 through 6, the draw reed is higher. You can bend the draw reed on holes 1 through 6 down almost as far as the blow reed.
On holes 7 through 10, the blow reed is higher. You can bend the blow reed on holes 7 through 10 down almost as far as the draw reed.
This is unassailable, stomp-down truth.
Since the "space" between the higher and lower reed on any given hole differs, depending on the hole, certain reeds can be bent further, in scale-degree terms, than other reeds.
The distance between the 5 draw and 5 blow, and the 7 blow and 7 draw, is a half step. The 5 draw and the 7 blow, therefore, can be bent down almost a half step.
The 5 draw (cross harp) and 7 blow (third position) are the flat seventh. The bent 5 draw (cross harp) and 7 blow (3rd pos.) are slightly below the flat seventh. This is a useful bent note. Little Walter used the bent 5 draw in the second chorus of "Juke." If you played "Juke" in third position, you'd bend that 7 blow. (The bent 7 blow is usually an accidental bend that most people dismiss as useless. But in 3rd position, it's just as useful as the bent 5 draw is in 2nd position.)
The distance between the 3 draw and 3 blow is a major third. That's a lot of space for a bend. This makes the 3 draw bend a tricky proposition for most developing players.
More to come........
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2011 4:50 PM
Tooka, I never have any problems bending the 5 draw. This is one of my most problimatic reeds. I have several harps that the 4 or 5 draw are dead! It dosen't matter what key either they all die after a while. My main keys are A,C,D,E&F that I go thru on a regular basis. Yeah I know I'm using to much force but these reeds see a lot of action. Adam and Jason did a tube video where they were at the cross roads. They were using the 456 holes mainley in many varied patterns and the 3&2 holes to finish the riff 4d 4d 5d 6b--5d 4d 5d 4d 4d 4dbent 3d 2d 2d bent 2d. If this makes any sense, I use this pattern/vriation a lot especially the 4545draws really fast.I feel thats where the failuers are coming from IMO.But yes I can't bend the 5 as far as the 4. Mike
The videos above made me wonder...when overblowing the draw reed sounds and the blow reed stops...but..when you bend the overblow up, it is only logical that that the blow reed is involved as with all types of bends it takes two reeds. A single reed can only make a single pitch.
I find it interesting that an overblow is always 1/2 step higher than the unbent draw note, no matter how many semi-tones between the draw and blow reed of the hole.
@groyster No you will not damage the reeds. People that damage the reeds are trying to bend that note further it can possible go. Its one of things were a little bit of knowlege goes a long way! What I mean by that is everyone should know the diagram 7limitJI posted. That is very important to learn. As far as breaking draw 5 reeds during double stop bends. Easy bisquit! Thats just getin' after it a little to hard thats all.
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2011 9:11 AM
this issue still confuses me 7limitji diagram clearly shows there are no notes available on the 5 and 7 holes by bending them but this is disputed by some of you only trying to understand if they can be bent 1/4 step are you really gaining anything by bending them?
The thing most people don't understand with the diatonic is that the reeds in each hole work together as a PAIR. When you are trying to bend a draw reed, it's actually the BLOW reed that's doing the actual bending, and for a blow reed, it's the exact OPPOSITE of that.
You can bend to within 1/2 step of the lowest note in the hole and the average player too often looks at a bend as a built in special effcts device, but the technique is used to get a note the instrument was not originally designed to produce.
The distance between the blow and draw note of 5 draw is exactly 1/2 step and trying to bend past the 1/4 step floor is flat out FOOLISH and it's nothing short of BAD PLAYING TECHNIQUE that does nothing except destroy harmonicas.
Too many players like to be on the "blissful ignorance" trip, meaning they just do it and don't have a clue, and this is a classio case for harmonica players to get off the pot and learn where everything is on their instrument and stop making excuses for that crap.
Learning where the note relationships are is VERY important. Learning the note layout ins the instrument, including where ANY and ALL available bends/overblows are CANNOT BE OVERSTRESSED!!!!!! It will also help if you learn another instrument as well, learning where the note layout is, and the best instrument for that is a piano so that you can visually picture where things are because what you learn are PATTERNS to where everything happens to be and too many players NEVER take enough time to learn that stuff because ytou can't get by on blissful ignorance forever before it bites you hard. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
My original question was with regard to the physical properties of the 5 draw reed that only allows it to bend down a quarter step.
I wasn't worried about new notes etc, just wanted to understand why a 3 draw can be bent down by 1.5 steps yet 5 draw only .25 step. How do they physically differ aprt from the obvious length? ----------
hvyj posted the answer above "Bending the 5 draw slightly on the I chord when playing in second position gives you a "harmonic 7th" or "blues 7th" which sounds really cool. this is a blue note, which, like the "blue third' is only used on the I chord and is not available on a piano keyboard."
Yes I understood the answer from 10th Jan. But someone else revived this thread and I was just commenting on my original question because I thought they had missunderstood. ----------
@Barbqbob I am accepting your answer and am moving on-I do not want to destroy my harps and am convinced that "less is better" re: breath force pressure
@groyster Thats part of the learning process. Once you've bent the 5 draw a couple to the point it breaks your harp. Thats to far! Or to hard!! Thats one of the reasons Charlie McCoy invented the Country tuning. The country tuning is like the 4 and 6 draw. It is 2 semitones above the blow note. Also it gives you the major scale in second position without overblowing the 5 hole. Country music use to be all based on the major scale. So it was perfect for him. He also retuned some harps where the 5 draw was in the middle of the minor 7th and major 7th.
You know, I repair harps for Suzuki, and when I replace 4 or 5 draw, I use a donor from 1, 2, or 3 and shorten them to fit. 5 draw is the most common reed to break, and 1, 2, and 3 almost never break. There's 4 draw notes on hole 3--but the reed doesn't get stressed like 5 does. On the CD that comes with Harmonica for Dummies, Winslow Yerxa clearly bends 5 down almost to the blow note. I don't recommend that tho!
@chromaticblues:"He also retuned some harps where the 5 draw was in the middle of the minor 7th and major 7th."
This is perplexing. what musical advantage would there be to doing this? Unlike the concept of a "blue third" which is a quarter tone flat, a dominant (flat) seventh, as I understand it, is played a half step flat or a little flatter than that. I wouldn't think the tone between major 7 and minor 7 would sound very good--at least not for blues. And I don't think it would sound musical for other styles of music--or I am i missing something? Enlighten me.
This altered tuning would make no sense for third position playing, either. Since third position is often used for minor key material, a true minor third is required and a "blue third" won't work. So, what was accomplished by this tuning?
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2011 5:13 AM
@tookatooka --- What you really haven't learned is that the highest reed in the hole will bend DOWNWARD in 1/2 step increments to within 1/2 step of the lowest note in the hole. Why do you have more room on 3 draw and none on 5 draw??? Very simple, especially when you learn where everything is and scales and also learn the note layout on a piano.
Using a key of C diatonic, hole 3's highest note is a B, and the lowest note is a G, and the 3 draw, in 1/2 step increments, bends down in this order:
B natural --- (no bending at all) Bb --- (1/2 step flat, obviously your 1st bend) A natural --- (1 full step flat AKA one more 1/2 step and your 2nd bend) Ab --- (1-1/2 steps flat, your 3rd and FINAL bend)
If you bend all the way to the floor, that note is still an Ab, but it is 1/4 step flat, or against a tuner, you're playing a note that is 50 cents FLAT, and that's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of tune and if you wanted to have a vibrato on the last bend, you've totally eliminated the necessary 1/4 step for it to ever happen.
With 5 draw, the highest note in the hole is an F, the lowest note is an E. There is exactly 1/2 step between the two notes, and if you bend 5 draw, you're playing an F tha, against a tuner, is 50 cents FLAT and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of tune and you obviously do NOT have the necessary 1/2 step needed.
TookaTooka, read that chart that 7LimitJI has just posted because it lists ALL bends available up and down the instrument and when you don't see a note after an unbent one, there is NO POINT trying to bend it down hard unless your goal is to ruin harmonicas on a weekly basis.
I'd also strongly urge you to go to a freebie site http://www.musictheory.net, which also has diagrams of the note layout of a keyboard and you can learn scales, which are essentially note patterns and seeing where all the notes are on a keyboard VISUALLY will help you learn a lot more.
---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@hvyj You know charlie was a country musician. So I think he played some blues songs in second position like that. Must be he just liked to be able to have more bending available with the five draw when playing some blues songs. I agree with what you said. Music theory speaking, I don't know! Remember some times playing blues doesn't make sense. Its all feel and delivery. I'm not sure if I agree about the playing in thrid with the 1/4 step sharp tuning. I don't know that might be something that does work?
You can put a windsaver valve on top of the 5 blow slot and make it more bendable without harming the harmonica. ---------- Joe www.spiersharmonicas.com
@chromaticblues:"I'm not sure if I agree about the playing in thrid with the 1/4 step sharp tuning. I don't know that might be something that does work?"
If you are playing MAJOR key blues in 3rd position, sure, it can work.
BUT if you are playing MINOR key blues, you MUST play a true minor third. You may be able to deepen it a little every now and ten for inflection or variety, but if you are in a minor key, you've got to play the third at least a half step flat. A "blue third" (quarter step flat) won't work. I do a lot of playing in minor keys.
In 2d position the draw 5 is the seventh and that note must be played at least a half step flat whether you are playing major or minor key blues. There is no "blue 7th" that is a quarter tone flat. The "blues 7th" or "harmonic 7th" is more like 3/4 flat--flatter than a half step flat. The note in between major and minor 7th is too close to a major 7th to work against the dominant 7th blues chords which is why I said this tuning doesn't seem to make any sense.
@ hvyj Yes already know that. Thank you! Just kidding. Yeah I studied music theory 15 to 20 years ago. If you don't play the chords it doesn't matter. Honestly I think he was experimenting with tunings and liked the bendability of the draw 5 in a blues context. I think your reading WAY to far into it. Also you can play third position to major chords. Thats where it could work with that tuning. I'm not saying I have any harps like that (or want one) but Charlie McCoy recorded with different tunings. It sounds like you think about this stuff alot so you know that you record a song with all kind of crazy tunings as long as you know what your doing! The tuning that we are talking about is not crazy at all. Its just different. I have built and used harps with all kinds of different tunings, but to be honest once I started getting in to JI tuned harps. I don't care about that stuff anymore. If your interested in this do some research on charlie McCoy. I think the album I'm thinking of was from the late sixties. He was one of the first people to retune his own harps. Well as far as I know.
@chromaticblues:"If you don't play the chords it doesn't matter."
Well, it does matter. Whether or not you or I are playing chords, the BAND is playing chords. And if they are playing blues the band is most likely playing dominant 7th chords, which are chords which include a flat 7th. One can play play minor over major but if you try to play major over minor it sounds pretty bad. That's why I'm saying a harp with D5 tuned half way between major 7 and minor 7 is not likely to sound very good playing blues in second position. I'm not interested enough in it to research it. I'm just saying that it doesn't seem to make any sense.
Wouldn't a major-minor 7th (ie a slightly raised 5 draw) be a useful blue note in 3rd position? Then you can bend it a quarter tone to a flat-7th (in 2nd position) or a true minor third (in 3rd position) to suit
It would make 3rd position a lot less "dark" sounding against major key blues songs, and some headroom to allow expression within the ambiguity of the blue third.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 5:25 AM
Oh yes--as I said above, it can work fine playing MAJOR key blues in 3rd position but it would be problematic for MINOR key blues in 3rd position. And would present no advantages over country tuning for playing blues in second position--on a country tuned harp the draw 5 is tuned up a half step, so one has to bend from major 7 to flat 7 in order to play blues but can use the major 7 on non blues material.
But I can't figure out what musical use there is for a 5 draw tuned up a quarter tone for playing ANYTHING in second position--one would have to bend it in order to play blues (like in country tuning) but so far as I can figure, (unlike in country tuning) there is no use for the UNbent altered note in second position. So, what's the point of tuning D5 up a quarter step unless one is using it exclusively to play major key blues in third position?
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 6:10 AM
No effect on the 5 OB..... But to clarify, I meant you'd have access to a valved 5 draw bend, not a bendable 5 blow. ---------- Joe www.spiersharmonicas.com
@hvjy So when you play the blue third along with the major chord you are saying that won't work? I have never experienced that myself, but I don't know maybe it depends on how good you are! I tried to find something you can qoute!
@chromaticblues: No. If you read my previous posts that's absolutely NOT what I'm saying. I specifically said that the blue third CAN work playing major blues. I also said there's no problem using a harp with the D5 tuned up a quarter tone for playing major key blues in third position. This is because in third position D5 is the third degree of the scale and in third position the D5 tuned up a quarter tone =blue third.
My point is that in SECOND position where D5 is the SEVENTH degree of the scale, there's no musical use for raising that note a quarter step. So far as i am aware, the note between major and minor SEVEN is NOT a musically useful note for playing blues or anything else. If I'm wrong, enlighten me.
@ hvyj Again I believe Charlie McCoy did that just so he could have more bendability on the five draw. I don't know what song it was. So I really can't elaborate to much and I've never done it myself. All I can say is think of it this way. He was a country musician. Country (especially old country) is based on the major scale. So he liked the draw 5 tuned the major 7. For him this was a bluesier tuning. Really I don't think it is any deeper than that.
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2011 10:48 AM
Charlie McCoy has a college degree in music. He is best known as a country session player, but the reality is that he is a very sophisticated formally trained musician. FWIW.
@hvyj Thank You again. Yes I know! He was the musical director of HeeHaa also. I did a half hour interview the same night he did once in Nashville. I'm familiar with his accolades. FYI AGAIN I really think he did it just because he was experimenting and it sounded good when playing blues. If you have a theory other than that I'm more than willing to think about it. I don't try to find fault with everything I read. I think about it first. Then I ask in a nonconfrontational manner. I'm just saying I believe there isn't anymore left of this subject. But.....
I think the reason for (and usefulness of) tuning the 5 draw up 1/4 step is that it makes a stronger, bluesier vibrato possible; after all, vibrato is just a bunch of small, quick bends strung together. You could play a flat 7 in 2nd or 3rd position by bending that note just a little bit, and you could get a killer vibrato, probably more so than with a standard tuning. Also, you can bend the 5 draw reed down a whole 1/2 step on a Lee Oskar Natural Minor harp without damage.
The real reason for tuning 5 draw 1/2 step sharp is so you can do things like ballads, or even jazz, and country, which uses major 7ths by the truckload, while playing in cross position, because otherwise, you'd normally be playing that in first position.
They're great for doing things like Red Top or a ton of doowop tunes, which uses Major 7ths quite a lot. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
