Milsson
1 post
Jan 04, 2011
1:18 PM
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Hello
I had a vision that my first post would be something everybody would enjoy to talk about.. But here i am asking about BENDING!
Well i´m a beginner and i have stupid questions so here it goes.
How come its easier for me bending 3-hole-draw on my cheap folkmaster in A then on my SP20 i C? On my C-harp i doesn´t seem to hit that first B-flat but on my A harp i can hit them all fairly clean.(i have a hering B-flat thats even harder then the A)
I´ve made A LOT of progress in the last two,three weeks or so but that 3-hole-draw is bugging the hell out of me.
I´ve been playing for real about a month or so. But im kinda losing the tracks when it sounds like shit everything. I get irritaded and throw the harp on the bed when the sound in my head wont come out. It´s not the blues without the third you know.
I am seriously thinking of playing the 6 OB instead it comes easier to me than that f*ing bend.
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isaacullah
1325 posts
Jan 04, 2011
1:31 PM
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This not at all a dumb question, and it is certainly an interesting topic that I'd be happy to discuss.
Here are my opinions on the matter:
It's easier to control the bends on the lower harps because the reeds are longer and the vibration frequencies are lower. The higher the reed, the tighter the vibration, and the harder it is to find the right "sweet spot" in your bend to get the correct pitch. Also, the different harp manufacturers use different reed width x length ratios to achieve the same pitches, and they also use different alloys of brass for reeds. Additionally, there may be differences in gapping (probably that's the main thing), and the space in between the reed edges and the edges of the reedslot (which can be adjusted via embossing). Not to mention that the different shape of coverplates, etc will affect your embouchure and the shape of your overall resonant cavity. Finally, there is experience/technique. As you progress, your bending technique becomes more ingrained, and you have to think less abut what your tongue and mouth are doing, and only think about what the note you want sounds like. Any and/or all of these factors may be what is affecting your 3 draw bend on the Spec 20. I'd suggest #1 to adjust the gaps (watch the series of videos posted by harpwrench on his YouTube channel), and #2 concentrate on evolving your bending technique.
#2 is something to work on for years.
You will notice these differences every time you switch harp brands and/or get a new key harp you haven't played yet. You'll have to adjust to the harp a lot, and then if you have customization techniques, you can adjust the harp to you a little.
Cheers,
== I S A A C ==
View my videos on YouTube!
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2011 1:37 PM
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REM
25 posts
Jan 04, 2011
1:36 PM
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It sounds like the problem is most likely a gapping issue (the gaps are probably too wide on that hole)(EDIT: Since you've only been playing a short time there are also probably some issues with your technique that could be improved, but since you're having an easier time bending that hole on an A harp, I'm guessing there's a gapping issue, and if fixed, it should make things easier).
I'm going to give you the links to some excellent youtube videos that will teach how to properly gap. IMHO gapping is the most important skill to learn when it comes to improving how your harmonica plays. It's a skill that I think all harp players should develop, even if they're not interested in working on harmonicas. I can't overstate how important it is, and it's more than worth the effort it takes to get really good at it. Here are the links (I'm not going to embed the videos because they've been posted here many times and 3 videos will take up a lot of space):
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh79GaDVmC8
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qkx7a5mAKA&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Upodp_mU8&feature=related
EDIT: The 3rd video (Part 3) is where you can see him working on hole 3, but I do suggest you watch all 3 videos.
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2011 2:40 PM
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eharp
1055 posts
Jan 04, 2011
1:48 PM
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i see a locked thread coming up!
lol
keep the questions coming, milsson. if you have a question, there are probably several lurkers with the same question.
i wont chime in as i am sure you will be getting great advice and anything i add would be redundant. or wrong.
welcome to the forum.
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tookatooka
2028 posts
Jan 04, 2011
2:09 PM
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@Milsson, don't be too hard on yourself. You've been presented with some good advice, you'll just have to work through the suggestions to see what works for you.
Getting the bends (enter Buzadero) can take people years to perfect. I thought I had it after 2 years but then found I was still lacking as far as some people were concerned and I know I still can't hit them right every time after four years but I'm getting better as time goes by. Hang in there, the time and effort is worth it.
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earlounge
256 posts
Jan 04, 2011
2:28 PM
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Don't get discouraged! Unfortunately my experience is that EVERY harp is different, even the same key in the same brand. After some time bending will become more natural and you will look back at this as when you were a beginner.
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jonlaing
175 posts
Jan 04, 2011
2:49 PM
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I find that bending on higher harps is tougher. A's and G's are like butter with bending. F's, for instance, are like opening a heavy door. C's are somewhere between.
Gapping could be an issue, but I would say, assume, as all beginners should, that it's your technique more than the harmonica (until you get into overbending).
keep at it!
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Milsson
2 posts
Jan 04, 2011
2:54 PM
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I can see were this is going. I already have severe GAS on a new guitar :)
I dont have anybody that can learn me this so you will have to bare with me on this questions.
I´ve been wailing away on the 4 hole for some days now, wobbling and squeling, but i guess it´s time for som scale practising.
And a new harp of course! :)
Thx you all by the way.
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Stickman
613 posts
Jan 04, 2011
3:38 PM
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personally I agree with Isaac that is probably a technique issue and the best fix is practice. I the the absolute worst thing a beginner player could do is crack open his harp and fiddle with the reeds. You WILL kill your harp on the first try and how on earth could one know if he was adjusting it correctly if he hasn't played long enough to master bending.
If I could add anything the what Isaac said it would be to relax and don't get so frustrated. It often takes people month to get used to the harp not to mention learning to bend. Slow down and don't rush yourself it's not like you have a gig lined up for friday. Or do you?
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Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2011 3:41 PM
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REM
26 posts
Jan 04, 2011
4:17 PM
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What I gathered from reading his post was that he seems to have the basic bending technique down (could it be better, of course, even players who have been playing for quite some time often need to practice bending and improve their technique). From what he's said I assume he's able to bend all the other holes, and he said he's able to bend the 3 hole on his A harp quite easily in comparison, and in my experience lower harps tend to be more difficult to bend(requires more air,etc.) on the lower holes than on a C harp(the one he's having trouble with). In fact he even said he's overbblowing at this point. This leads me to believe that he's developed at least enough bending technique that if the harp were set up the way it should be he should be able to bend hole 3 without to much trouble (whether or not he gets a good tone and has good intonation on the bend is another question, like I said most people need to develope their bending technique further, but that doesn't mean they can't bend).
If his bending technique was better developed he'd most likely be able to still bend on a badly gapped hole, but it would be a PITA, it would take a lot of air, and it would be uneccesarily difficult. I certainly wouldn't play it like that. I often hear beginners blaming the harp when in reality it's there technique, so I understand why people are skeptical when someone who hasn't been playing long thinks there is something wrong with their harp, but the fact is that quality control for harps isn't very consistent and so inevitably there are going to be some beginners who recieve badly set up harps. I know I personally have recieved harps from hohner where the bottom holes were so badly gapped that I could barely sustain a whole step bend for more than a couple seconds(And I have a pretty well developed bending technique, I'm not bragging, obviously there is plenty of room to improve). With the bending ability that Millson already has (he has enough control to play an overblow) he should be able to get some sort of bend out of hole 3 on a C harp without much trouble. This is what believes me to believe he has a harp where hole 3 was gapped very poorly.
As for the danger of fiddling with the harp and messing it up, I honestly don't think there's too much risk involved. Gapping is fairly basic low risk operation. If someone watches the joe spiers video where he teaches gapping and they follow what he's doing, they're not too likely to destroy their harp. The only danger would be if you just ignored what he showed in the videos and you just started jabbing at the reeds with a lot of force, then yes, in that case you mgiht bend and destroy a reed. But as long as you watched those videos, the procedure is pretty straight forward and safe. This isn't like embossing where you can easily destroy a harps even after someshows you how.
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2011 4:24 PM
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Stickman
614 posts
Jan 04, 2011
4:24 PM
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"Well i´m a beginner and i have stupid questions so here it goes."
"I´ve been playing for real about a month or so."
I stand by what I said. Beginners would be better off working on technique than open harp surgery.
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REM
27 posts
Jan 04, 2011
4:50 PM
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"I stand by what I said."
That's fine, I never said you had to agree with me.
I think if someone is able bend all the notes clearly (and they're even able to overblow), except for one hole on one harp won't bend, there's most likely an issue with the gapping on that one hole. It sounds like he has enough basic bending ability(he can easily bend every other whole, and can bend all the wholes on a lower key harp, and he can OB) where getting the hole 3 of a c harp to bend a half step shouldn't be much trouble (unless of course that holes been gapped poorly, or some other problem).
Do I think his time is better spent practicing playing technique, than sitting around working on harps and such? Of course, but taking the coverplates off to check the gapping on one hole(hardly what I'd call "open harp surgery", I'd consider it "basic maintenance", which even beginners should learn at some point), isn't going to take up hardly any time, and it presents very little risk (virtually none if he follows the directions). So I don't see any problem with it. Also, gapping is an extremely important skill, every harp player needs to learn it, so I don't see any reason for him not to learn about the technique and then open his harp and check the gapping on just the one hole. I don't see any difference between this and, for example, someone teaching a beginner to open his harp and clear an obstruction thats blocking the reed (an important thing to know how to do, even for a beginner, unless of course they don't mind playing a harp that has reeds that don't work), in fact imho gapping is a safer procedure than even clearing something caught on the reed.
But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2011 4:54 PM
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DutchBones
428 posts
Jan 04, 2011
5:25 PM
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I asked the same question to a pro player here in Japan, and he gave me a very acceptable/understandable answer....
He told me that cheap harps use cheaper material to make the reeds and are therefor more flexible(easier to bend) , whereas better quality harps use better quality reed material and are therefor harder to bend (in the beginning) but the benefit is that they are tougher and last longer....
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DutchBones Tube
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nacoran
3560 posts
Jan 04, 2011
5:41 PM
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Dutchbones, I'd buy that. I have a Pocket Pal that bends like a dream!
Milson, as a grammatical note, I think you get GAS for something, not on. I suppose it's a judgement call, but it sounds less disgusting! :)
Jonlaing, I actually find the higher harps easier to bend, although lower harps seem easier for blow bends.
Gapping isn't too difficult (unless you have to deal with nails). Sooner or later everyone is going to get a harp that doesn't play well, and if it's response issues and it's not technique, it's probably gapping.
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Nate
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REM
28 posts
Jan 04, 2011
6:00 PM
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I agree nacoran, I also find the higher harps easier to bend than the lower harps (specifically the first three holes). But I find when you when you start getting up towards the high harps, like an F, getting the correct intonation on the hole 3 bends becomes more difficult. The bending itself is easy, but being able to hit the intonation perfectly and hold it their becomes more difficult. I think this because on the higher harps there is much less "room" between the bends. What I mean by "room" is difference in the amount of "bending energy" needed to play a half step bend and a whole step bend on an F harp is extremely small. The amount that you need to change your bending embouchure/resonance chamber when going from the half step to the whole step bend on a high harp is so little that it feels like there's almost no difference. This makes it very easy to pull the bend down too far.
When you play the lower/midrange harps, by comparison, it feels like there's a lot of "room" between the different bends. When you go from one bend to another, you really have to change your resonance chamber quite a bit, and you really have to pull that bend down. This makes it easier (for me) to narrow in on the right intonation. Although once you get into the low/really-low harps then it becomes more difficult again to get the intonation right. I think that's because it's taking so much more energy just to get the bends on the really low harps.
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2011 6:05 PM
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Milsson
3 posts
Jan 05, 2011
2:05 AM
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nacoran: "Milson, as a grammatical note, I think you get GAS for something, not on. I suppose it's a judgement call, but it sounds less disgusting!"
Haha... It would be very nice if swedish had the same grammatic ruels as english. But in my opinion GAS can be a kind of arousing.
REM: "When you play the lower/midrange harps, by comparison, it feels like there's a lot of "room" between the different bends........."
Yhat makes sense i guess. I´ll have to take some time in the woodshed and figure this out.
I´ll check the gapping to. I gaped the 6-draw to get the overblow so i think i can manage that.
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REM
29 posts
Jan 05, 2011
10:17 AM
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"I´ll check the gapping to. I gaped the 6-draw to get the overblow so i think i can manage that."
Sounds good, make sure you check both the blow and draw reed because when you bend you're using both reeds. Hope everything goes well, if there are any more problems just let us know and the people here should be able to help with whatever you need.
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Milsson
4 posts
Jan 06, 2011
1:04 PM
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Well as you all know it was my tecnique that was the problem.
I realy like the bronzy version of key to the high way(in E that is). Problem is my folkmaster in A belong in the thrash so i figured out the blues scale in E on my C harp. Turns out its called 5th pos and is wonderfull practice for the 3-draw bends.
So i run the blues scale up and down on my C harp to get all the notes right. But its f*ing hard!
Maybe i´ll throw up a vid when it sounds alright... i got the key to.... the hig.....lalalal. :)
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eharp
1068 posts
Jan 06, 2011
1:42 PM
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"But its f*ing hard!"
if it was easy, everyone would be doing it!
kudos for working on 5th position!
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nacoran
3585 posts
Jan 06, 2011
2:44 PM
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"I think this because on the higher harps there is much less "room" between the bends. What I mean by "room" is difference in the amount of "bending energy" needed to play a half step bend and a whole step bend on an F harp is extremely small."
REM, that comment hertz.
:)
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Nate
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