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prewar marine band
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jonlaing
123 posts
Oct 09, 2010
1:46 PM
I acquired a pre-WWII marine band. It's almost in complete working condition, but it could use some fixing up. I'm wondering, when fixing it up, should I try to keep it as close to its original make as possible, or should I go ahead and customize it to make it a better harmonica (replace nails with screws, gap, emboss, etc)?

I know these things are a dime-a-dozen, but I like it and I wanted to keep it around, maybe display it. We'll see; it's a project.
arzajac
369 posts
Oct 09, 2010
2:51 PM
What era is it? Is it a "mouse-ear?" I assume it has a star of david in the back cover, but are the coverplates bent back?

I ask because I have a half-dozen of them. The star of david is an indication of the era, but some harmonica made up until the late 50s still had the star. Those did not have bent coverplates. If it came to you with bent coverplates, then it is pre-war for sure.

That being said, all of the harmonicas I have from the 50s and 60s play as well as the earlier ones that I have.

If you want to keep it authentic, then just work on it but put it back together with the nails. I have lots of nails from harps that I worked on if you need more.

I doubt you will need to emboss it. I would recommend sanding down and sealing the comb. It's probably dried and bumpy (and nasty - the only way to play it is to sand it down, repaint and seal it).

You could (and I highly recommend) sanding down the draw plate (the surface that is in contact with the comb). That won't show when you reassemble it and will increase the playability a lot (in my limited experience).

I actually was just working on one just now. This is what I usually do:

1- Lift up the nails using a knife and pop off the nails (coverplate).

2- Lift off the reedplates and remove the nails in the same way. I round off the corners but if you want to keep it pristine, then don't do that.

3- Clean up the comb with and vacuum it (I rub the inside of the tines with a dry disk cleaning pad to loosen crud). Sand off the paint and finish on the outer rim. Seal it with water-based polyurethane (2 coats)

4- Spray on some water-based sealant to coat the inside of the tines. Let it hang to dry overnight.

5- I soak the reedplates in CLR for about 3 minutes. I rinse them off. I throw the coverplates in the CLR while I continue on the reedplates. I use an old toothbrush and scrub the reedplates with brasso. A quick gentle touch will allow you to avoid getting a bristle stuck in the reedplate and damage a reed. I rinse off the brasso and drop the reedplate in an ultrasonic cleaner. I do the same with the other reedplate and then the coverplates.

6- The next day, I draw lines across the comb and sand them off. The pencil lines allow me to see where the surface is uneven. If I would have done this before doing the outer rim, the finish on the outer rip will overlap and will need to sand down the comb again anyway. When both sides of the comb are smooth, I polish on the finish.

7- I use vinyl gloves and and lint-free polishing cloth ("microfiber") I dip one finger into water-based polyurethan gloss finish and wipe my finger on the palm of my other glove. I apply a thin coat using my finger (re-wetting it from the palm of my other hand) to the whole surface of one side of the comb. I then lay it down and wipe it off with the cloth. I do another drying pass, this time polishing the finish until it is smooth. I let it dry and then do another coat, maybe two.

8- I sand the draw reedplate using a free area of the same sandpaper. I make sure none of the reeds get sanded as I press down. (I slip some wax paper in there and tape the whole thing with masking tape).

All that's left is to reassemble the hap. You can sandwich it together to test it out and adjust the tuning and the gaps. I must say that with harps made before the 70s, I find they play very well without needing any gapping. Harps made later than that are usually gapped seriously bad.

Break off a sliver of toothpick into each nail hole so that the nails will hang on tight. Hammer in with a 1/16th inch punch.

That's my 2cents. Maybe someone else has better advice.

Have fun!




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Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2010 3:57 PM
arzajac
370 posts
Oct 09, 2010
3:47 PM
Here are a few photos.

After a good cleaning:


This is the comb which I haven't touched. The saw-mill marks and the crud on the tips of the tines make it unusable as-is.


This is another comb that I worked on today. It is sanded smooth/flat and has two coats of gloss finish on it.


This is the sanding block I use. I put screws on four corners to prevent me from tipping the block and making an uneven surface.

I don't usually criss-cross the sanding tracks, but I tried vacuuming the sheet after the first use and it seemed to work.


This is a draw reed plate that I sanded smooth. The blow plate is the one on on the top.

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Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2010 3:50 PM
jim
403 posts
Oct 09, 2010
3:56 PM
Hey,
need a real comb for your MB?

I don't recommend using that old wooden comb - just trash it, there ain't no value in it except for a microbiologist...

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www.truechromatic.com
nacoran
2925 posts
Oct 09, 2010
5:08 PM
I'm still working on opening up my Marine Band. I got the covers off but trying to pry the plates up has only left me with all sorts of dings in the comb. (Good thing I'm replacing it.) I haven't tried them fully (since I can't get the silly thing open) but it looks like screws from a Piedmont are going to work.

As for your vintage harp, well, I suspect there are still enough old MB's floating around so they don't have much value as collectors items. Of course if everyone customizes them that might change. That's always a tough call for antiques. It's swung back and forth. They used to say fix them up, then they said don't. Of course in the meanwhile all the fixing up made the all original ones all the rarer.

Arzajac, your one image created an optical illusion. It looked like you were cutting a comb from the very middle of a giant block of wood!

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Nate
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DanP
148 posts
Oct 09, 2010
8:26 PM
I too have a prewar Marine Band. The first thing that's noticeable is that the covers are sturdier than the flimsy covers on the Marine Band harps made today. Question for a harmonica historian: At what point did Hohner start putting thinner covers on the Marine Band?
arzajac
371 posts
Oct 09, 2010
8:27 PM
Nate, have you seen this video? Look at 2:45 in.




Also, as for the dings in the comb, you can fill them in with wood filler and then just paint over it if it's the rim or sand and finish it if it's dinged on the flat surface. I had one comb that had mill marks so deep I would have had to sand it down too much. I rubbed wood filler all over it. That reduced the amount of sanding I needed to do considerably. Another comb I had had a chunk break off on one side. It works and looks fine after it was filled sanded and finished.



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Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2010 8:33 PM
nacoran
2930 posts
Oct 09, 2010
8:35 PM
I've seen someone else using the same technique. I Tried using a very small screwdriver to pry under it (it worked for the covers), and a big knife. I don't know where my pocket knife is. I'm having some finger dexterity issues though.

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Nate
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jonlaing
125 posts
Oct 10, 2010
1:33 AM
Wow, that's some great info! Thanks guys!

I'm aware that there are a ton of these floating around, but I wanted to collect it and restore it for me.

I just checked and it has the coverplates folded back, so I guess that means it's legit. I checked it against a website that had the MB models by era. It looks like mine was the last one before the post-war change. Looks almost like a modern MB, but with different coverplates.

Also, who ever owned this harp before me was very heavy handed, and the coverplates are squished in the middle a bit. Any good advice on bending them back to their original shape?
arzajac
372 posts
Oct 10, 2010
4:20 AM
Richard Sleigh bends a coverplate that was crushed here starting at 0:39:



Less is more. Really. Go gently. You think you need to just press a *little* more and then Pop! The plate is bent in the other direction with a big crease in it.

The enemy of "good" is "better". If you got rid of 90 per cent of the warp and the harp is playable, is there really a need to try to get it 100 per cent? Will anyone, including you notice?

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Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2010 4:22 AM
jim
405 posts
Oct 10, 2010
7:28 AM
Hohner used Stainless steel on '30s models. Then they went to soft covers in the '60s - correct me if I'm wrong. But on today's MBs they use stainless steel again - with chrome.
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barbequebob
1322 posts
Oct 10, 2010
12:16 PM
Most Hohners for years used hardened steel and since the middle of this decade have gone to stainless steel. Until the beginning of this decade, they were always nickel plated, then later chrome plated.

In the late 70's, not only did they begin have much more closed covers in the back, they also began shrinking the amount of metal being used. If you have the cover plate from a MB made since the 80's, take a look at where the crease is where the flap in the back begins.

Since he 80's, it's been moved back roughy 1/8th of an inch along with less metal being used and prior to that, the crease was in the middle of that flap with an extra 1/8th of an inch of metal. The alleged idea of doing this was to supposedly cut down on crushing but in doing this, it began to lose a pretty good amount of volume and projection. Whenever you get a custom MB, one of the first things being done is to open the back so that it more resembles the wide openness of a pre-WWII MB, and just the size of the opening alone contributed to the volume of the instrument, along with the use of the long out of production bell metal brass for the reed material.

I have 4 pre-WWII MB's, all in great condition and all in their original paper boxes with the attached photo of an 1896 US MArine Band on it. I have not had anything done to them at all and OOTB, they still outplay ANY of the present day stock of MB's available. One of those, in the key of E, I gave to my buddy Jerry Portnoy as a birthday present and he never lets anyone touch that.

The stainless steel covers are thinner but they went that way to avoid the problem with nickel allergies.

If you're gonna restore it to its original glory, the original tuning was in 7 Limit Just Intonation, which they used until 1985, when the went to 19 Limit Just Intonation and used until 1992, when they switched to a compromise tuning they're still using to this date.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
jonlaing
127 posts
Oct 10, 2010
12:32 PM
How do you tune to 7 limit? I never can seem to find any information on that.
jim
406 posts
Oct 10, 2010
2:14 PM
I've got one from 1937.

Don't beat me but I've retuned it to a pretty alternative tuning and trashed the stock comb (replaced it with a 800-year old wood of American Chestnut which I find more than an equal substitute :)
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www.truechromatic.com
KingoBad
426 posts
Oct 10, 2010
3:41 PM
BBQ Bob has posted the tunings many times:

http://www.harmonicaspace.com/viewtopic.php?topic=688
arzajac
373 posts
Oct 10, 2010
4:15 PM
Edit: I copied this from here but the spacing is all borked:
http://www.deltafrost.com/tuning-harps_topic5609_post55578.html

Now below is 19 Limit Just Intonation:


BLOW 0 -14 +3 0 -14 +3 0 -14 +3 0
HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DRAW +6 +3 -13 +6 +3 +6 -13 +6 +3 +6

Now below is 7 Limit Just Intonation:

BLOW 0 -14 +3 0 -14 +3 0 -14 +3 0
HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
DRAW +6 +3 -14 +6 -31 +6 -14 +3 -31 +6

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Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2010 4:16 PM
Littoral
116 posts
Oct 10, 2010
4:30 PM
Chestnut combs. Id like to find some of those. That tree is an amazing story.
jim
408 posts
Oct 10, 2010
11:51 PM
check Elk River Harmonicas - maybe David Payne still have some left...


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nacoran
2941 posts
Oct 11, 2010
12:11 AM
I have one of Dave's combs. It's sweet! It's not on a harp right now, but I have it sitting on my desk. It's like comb porn. Ever noticed if you run your fingers down a comb across the reed gaps the pitch changes?

I really need to find a harp to get that on. I have three combs that I really love, that one, an aluminum one that fits on the same harp, and the clear acrylic one. (It's almost together now... I can turn the simplest projects into building the pyramids!)

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Nate
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arzajac
374 posts
Oct 11, 2010
5:48 AM
Today is Thanksgiving in Canada so I have the day off. I decided to work on the comb.

The photos speak for themselves.

Actually, the story goes: Brush, Sand, Aw Shit!, Superglue.









I suppose it's like a shelter dog - I'll just love it all the more...

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Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2010 5:49 AM
DanP
150 posts
Oct 11, 2010
12:08 PM
Thanks for that information, barbequebob. My prewar MB is circa. 1937 based on the information on Pat Missin's site. It has a star in the circle with the two hands. What can I use to remove the rusty spots from the cover plates? I don't really want to use a chemical rust remover. The harp plays great. The only drawback is that funky rust taste.
MP
918 posts
Oct 15, 2010
10:13 AM
so arzajac,

is 0 A442? thanks.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus

Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 10:14 AM
barbequebob
1342 posts
Oct 15, 2010
10:18 AM
Harmonicas are NEVER tuned to real A440 because at the factory, they know for a proven FACT that the average player plays often quite a lot harder than they think they do (more so with newbies) and they tune it that way (or higher in some cases) so that when hit hard, it will never fall below A440. Very few players, including pros, have the kind of breath control necessary to play a true A440 tuned harp in real A440 (Brad Harrison told me that the only player he knows that can is Howard Levy).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte

Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2010 9:32 AM
MP
919 posts
Oct 15, 2010
10:24 AM
so, does 0=A442 on a modern marine band 1896? thanks.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
chromaticblues
209 posts
Oct 15, 2010
11:32 AM
@MP A Korg ca-30 (I think its a 30) Its a cheap acoustic tuner cost about Twenty $$. On the upper left it has Hz. You can change that setting> It comes on 440. As bob said reset it to 442.
@ Dan P I dis agree. I think new marine Band covers sound better because they are thinner. Anyone that is crushing there harps is holding wrong!
Bob is right again about the material used today is different, but does it make the new MB's worse? I don't know. I know Hohner's Quality Control sucks, but I'm not affaid to work on harps so it doesn't affect me!
I do like the covers bent in. Thats not hard to do. So thats not a big deal either.
Now if any if you tune your harps like the above example and go to your local blues jam. You will sound like shit! The root note is sharp. in every position but first. Most blues in played second.
If you want to play in what everyone calls Just intonation and be able to play with other people.
One of the most important things is not to use that example!
Set your tuner to 442Hz
When tuning each reed play with the same force you do when playing.
Blow: holes 2 5 8 are -14 flat
Draw: holes 1 4 8 are +2 sharp
Draw: hole 2 isn't flat or sharp
Draw: holes 3 7 are -14 flat
Draw: holes 6 10 are +4 sharp
Draw: holes 5 9 This is tricky! I find that -10 flat is to much -5 flat sometimes sounds good, but other times sounds to sharp when playing double stops 4-5. I set mine -5 flat.
Ok in the real world thats just getting started.
Now play the draw chord and watch your tuner. If you did it right. The tuner will read the same as two hole draw. Listen for apulsating sound. It should smooth. don't try to play softly thinking that will help. It doesn't. You got to get it to sound smooth and be spot on with the two draw.
Now do the same with the blow chord. It has to match the blow 2.
Then play 1-4 cotave. that has to be smooth. If it isn't you have adjust the draw 4 to match draw 1.
Do the same with all the blow notes starting with 1-4 and working your way up the harp. You always have to make the higher note match the lower note when teasting octaves after setting your chords!
There! Thats way custom harps cost so much!
I know it sounds like alot, but once you do it you'll be amazed at how well a harp can sound! I can tell when one of the reeds is 4 sometimes even 2 cents out of tune. You can't buy a harp without half of it being more than that out of tune.
The Korg is simple and cheap! It isn't perfect, but gets you in the right direction. I found that using it trained my ears. I wasn't expecting that either it just happened!
barbequebob
1344 posts
Oct 15, 2010
12:41 PM
@Chromaticblues --- The tuning you've listed here is almost identical with the comprimise tuning Seydel uses, which is actually 19LJI and the main difference between what Seydel uses and 19LJI is wheras 5 & 9 draw in 19LJI is tuned 1.5 cents sharp, Seydel has those two notes tuned 2 cents flat. the tuning you employ has 5 & 9 draw tuned another 3 cents flatter than Seydel uses, but 3 & 7 draw is 2 cents flatter.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
MP
921 posts
Oct 15, 2010
12:50 PM
thanks chro.
i've been out of town for months and had a friend send me my shitty tuner(the korg CA-30 to go w/ my sparse repair kit.

thanks for all your info. i've also found that 5 and 9 draw sound better a little sharper than -10 or -11.

i just wanted to know where 0 was. bob didn't say.

i know the crossovers are 443=0 and seydels are 444.
--anyway, thanks again.--------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
barbequebob
1346 posts
Oct 15, 2010
12:55 PM
As far as how flat or sharp, right off the bat you have to remember that it is relative to where you starting standard pitch was. If you set the standard pitch at A442 for example, 0 cents is A442, and all the other things like what cents flat or sharp is all relative to that.

When using those cheapie tuners, control of breath force and using an extremely light breath force is IMPERATIVE!!!! Why? When tuned using a light breath force to check it, it will always sound correct when played harder, BUT this is NEVER true in reverse.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
MP
922 posts
Oct 15, 2010
1:04 PM
you said it bob!

you get one weird sounding, unplayable harp if you blow too hard tuning.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
arzajac
377 posts
Oct 15, 2010
5:14 PM
The only other thing I can add to that is straight out of Richard Sleigh's book and that's to warm up the harp before tuning it.

If you are not able to warm it by holding it in your hands for a few minutes or using a hair dryer, warm it with your breath by playing it for a few minutes.

He says that the cold metal will cause more condensation and make the harp harder to tune. It seems to me that would only hold true for the blow notes, but who am I to argue? Warming it up, taking my time and blowing very gently (I actually think of you every time, Bob!) seems to work for me.

Yes the Korg tuner (It's now called the CA-1) is somewhat shitty. It's actually very accurate, so much so that you have to be very gentle with it. It took me about two straight hours with it to get used to it and get it to read consistently. I can't afford a better tuner...
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chromaticblues
211 posts
Oct 16, 2010
4:20 AM
Yeah arzajac I agree it takes a little getting use to, but I don't think anyone needs to spend more money on a great tuner. Once you get use to it it's very useful! The big thing is you have to reallize there is operator error involved. That means who ever is useing it has to test all the reeds with consistant breath. Certainly not with a forceful breath, but a consistant smooth breath.


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