but if you don't like the sound or performance you are getting ..... how are you better off. i think you just went through that with your hot metal harps.
if youve only been playing a few weeks/months, get ONE or TWO good quality harps. thats all you need. if the $15 harp sounds good, just play it. per the other thread, having all the keys now will do two unnecessary things for you.
one: make you spend MORE money that you confess to be tight on, (2 good harps $60 bucks, 7 mediocre harps $125?) id take the two good ones any day...
and two: since youre new to it, you'll have a bunch of harps that you cant use in a variety of tunes, because you havent learned anything yet. what good is that?
i dont get the comparisons between a 15 buck harp and a 30 buck harp as you relate it to the $200 guitar and a $1200 guitar. BIG difference...huge.
its all a hobby, a very very small percentage of visitors here are working pros...
bottom line. do what you want to do to be happy. if that means cheapo harmonicas, well.. they sell those for a reason.
Frank, nobody is giving you flack.... The point is that lots of people started of with getting cheapos, for whatever the reason.. But once they start to become better, and get a better harp (Delta Frost and Harp Master in my case) they regret having spend their money on low quality harps they don't/can't use anymore and wish they'd bought one 30 dollar harp instead of two 15 dollar harps right from the start....
If you're just learning to play, 3 or 4 harps should be more than plenty.. most of us started of with just one C harp... and in the long run, more expensive harps are better deal than cheapos...
I play the same Deltas and Harp Masters for about 5 years now, I can't say that of my Folk Master , Blues Bands etc.... Plus... a better harp will get you at your destination sooner than a cheapo...
No flack,Frank.... we're just sharing experiences so you won't have the same disappointments... and IF money is tight (like in my case) you OWE it to yourself to get a decent harp... if not... you will have your wife look in that drawer with funky harps one day .. and say.... : "Why did you waste money on these useless harps? Why didn't you get a good harp in the first place?" .... that's what my wife said....
---------- DutchBones Tube
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 12:55 AM
I only played Hohner Bluesbands for the first two years. Here are my thoughts on the subject:
First start with the pro's. They're cheap. They're ok-playable (but hey, other Hohner models have their quirks too). They're very silent, which is bad for playing out, but awesome for practicing.
Now the one big con: The cheapo-cheapo harps just play too different to the all the rest of the harps. After playing bluesbands for all that time (learning most on my chops on them) it took me quite a while a some effort to change to mediocre harps (I'm talking about the next better harps like Harpmaster, BR, which are a little less than double the price (18, instead of 11€) - but a world of different as how it is played.
So if you don't want to learn a lot of bad technique (too strong breath force, uncontrolled bending,... etc - all very common bad techniques which I can pracitcally garantuee that you'll be acquiering with (very) bad harps). I would very much opt for the second best choice, and second cheapest alternative: The Harpmaster. It's IMO a better quality than most Hohners...
I'd recommend: buy all the Folkamsters that you want to... (IMO having all different keys is really quite a bit advantage, especially if you go jamming early). But buy one Harpmaster too.
Then at least you'll have a sure thing alternative if you find out that all folkmasters are lemons.
I'm repeating myself, but I think this should be emphasized,... especially when you're playing out earliy with crappy harps. Pay attention with your breath control. Bad harps need a lot of air to play - this makes note/volume/dynamic control very difficult and you'll very fast start playing with way too much breath force... - read much of bbq's posts lately? - this will very probable be the start/foundation of a very bad playing style/technique and the more you'll learn on these harps the more you'll have to unlearn the moment you'll change to better harps (which all of us eventually do
This is played with a Bluesband (in G, I think). All I hear is bad playing technique.
---------- Don't give into negativity!
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 12:59 AM
"t's the responds of the reeds that's lacking."' exactly. the folkmaster has it over the hot metal, which was good enough since playing for your cats. but a manji is going to be even more responsive. a lotus will be way more responsive.
any flack you are getting, and i have never noticed anybody on any forum getting flack for the choice of harps (unless he starts a thread about it), is that most have been down the same road.
your addiction is going to lead you to "more" and "better". that is a fact. we are just trying to save you time and money. the same goes with gear. not many suggest buying the very best or most expensive harp to begin with. the "flack" you are getting is probably just well meaning advice to not waste money working your way up the food chain and just get to where you will be in the near future anyway.
in the long run, you will have saved enough money to buy a b-rad or lotus.
tnfrank i was wondering how the golden melody did not fit the music you were trying to play. many players use them for blues, jazz, rock, pop, and even folk music....and they sound good (to my ears) playing all different types. i know that we all debate between et, ji, and comp tuning for different styles...i was just wondering where you were coming from.
Many of us are trying to give you perspective but you just do your own thing and then argue your point.
I suggest that you chill out, figure out who is who, who you should listen to and who is full of shit. When you have that down, then get to learning.
I'm telling you for the third time, you're wasting your time and money.
So far from what I have seen you post, you're exactly the kind of guy that gives harmonica players a bad name...in the sense that you are exceedingly exuberant about being a fool. You don't take the instrument seriously, nor do you want to that doesn't help push the instrument forward.
When you start going to jams and experience the general contempt for harp players, know that it's something you are perpetuating here and now.
Reread the topic
"For some of us a $15 buck harp is good enough."
That's nothing but a beacon for fools. Turn off your light buddy and just get to practicing, you'll appreciate what I'm telling you in a few months.
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
c'mon, buddha, that's being a tad harsh. this is a journey. we all get to our destination following different paths. many did exactly what frank is doing. you can lead a horse to water, you cant make him drink.
I don't care if he learns to play or not. I don't care what his journey is... the fact is, other people will read his words and some may agree, his attitude towards the instrument unravels all of the hard work that players like Adam, Jason and myself have put into so you "non-serious" players have more overall respect.
Wanna know why harp players are frowned upon? It because of the kind of attitude that TNFrank has.
Now you all know, I'm the first guy to help anybody but it's clear he doesn't want it.
eharp, please explain to me how sugar coating anything helps a person learn?
When you learned not to touch a hot stove was it on or off? It was on and burned the shit out of you. Would have learned the same lesson from a cold burner?
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Frank I would say buy Special 20's. I always tell beginners and people that aren't that good to play those harps. They are easy to play, sound pretty good and the pastic comb won't be a pain in your ass! I know they cost $30 but its worth it. I think its a good price for a good harp! If you like the way the Hot metal sound s you'll love the SP 20. Its a little brighter, but so much easier to play. There are pros that play them also. So its not s piece of shit you'll out grow!
"the fact is, other people will read his words and some may agree, his attitude towards the instrument unravels all of the hard work that players like Adam, Jason and myself have put into so you "non-serious" players have more overall respect."
So how come Jason or Adam don't post things like you've just posted above? Frank might be trying to run before he can walk but that's true of most of us. He doesn't know you from dick...he's just gonna see someone calling him a fool on a forum he came to for advice and then leave. You don't have to sugar coat anything...just be civil to people.
The respect will be given to the person playing the instrument, not the instrument itself. I've never come across anyone who's been disrespectful to me because I play a harmonica. Some people smile when they see me take it out of my pocket but are open mouthed when you can play something other than "Oh Susanna". And that goes for most things I take out of my pants.
---------- Oisin
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 8:56 AM
German Harpist said it all bad harps take a lot of air to play leading to bad habits-pull up barbq bob and what he says about the excess wind so many players use-I also agree that sp20s are good beginner harps because they are not pos-there is no doubt in my mind that custom harps are best it only stands to reason that they are they are handcrafted-these hot metal hohners are still have only heard of them in this forum
@Buddha: Chris, Oisin and Stickman are right. You're as entitled to your opinion as the next guy, god knows, but when you veer from strong (and earned) disagreement to name calling...
"...you are exceedingly exuberant about being a fool...."
...you're not only manifesting blatant disrespect for a fellow forum member, but you're arguably helping to perpetuate the OTHER common belief that musicians hold about harp players: that they compensate for the smallness and unimportance of their instrument by the amusing grandiose fierceness of their disagreements about the merits of what is, after all, only a tin sandwich.
Disagreements are fine. Some of us think others are fools, and that's fine, too. But when we start actually calling each other fools out loud, that leads us to call each other idiots, dipshits, assholes, fucking idiots, and all the rest. It goes there pretty quickly. That's why the forum creed asks that we not go there at all.
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 8:51 AM
Touchy topic ain't it. Seems to always get off track.
I understand and agree with Buddha's perspective (with a little edge taken off - luv ya Chris) given, most here are striving for more than camp songs.
That's why I watch Adam, Jason, Chris etc.. youtube lessons and why I buy Adams tradebit lessons. BTW - Adam has one youtube (at the crossroads?) where he states to stay away from the toy harps. Actually says plastic which could be confusing given SP20's are really nice instruments. I'm assuming he would include the hot metal in the toy category but that could be my arrogance coming through.
I think Kyzer put it well. Best to have a couple of pretty good harps in hand. Ton's of material to work with. Money saved on a set of lesser harps, spent on Adams lessons in a couple key's, will get you a long way.
For what it's worth, I have a couple of Harpmasters, a Seydel Solist Pro, locked in on SP20's but now I'm gravitating back to Marine Bands given I have aquired a few meager self adjusting techniques (now don't go off topic with that statement, at least keep it clean)
I've also played other instruments and have expereinced first hand the difference between a POS bass clarinet for example and a smooth as ice pro-quality instrument. The POS one was fine for playing Yankee Doodle but sucked at playing "The Marriage of Figaro"
buddha- one doesnt need to actually get burned by the stove to learn the lesson. nor fall from a plane to know it aint gonna end good, nor eat paint chips to know it's gonna affect your brain. then again, some do, huh, buddha? but since you think one needs to learn by actually experience something to learn it...frank should just buy what harps he wants. you trying to help him just aint gonna happen.
please, dont do any more hard work on my account. being a non-serious player, i hate to think of all the hard work you are doing, partially for my account, when i didnt ask for it. i aint gonna pay you.
i think i might have to start keeping tabs, not only of the threads that get locked, but of the folks that get scared/chased/intimidated off the forum.
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 9:05 AM
The first diatonic harp I owned was a Blues Harp. It's a playable harp, but it has a lot of sharp corners. I didn't play it much. I have actually bought 2 sets of Piedmonts (I needed another cheap case). It's the cheapest way to get 7 keys out there. They aren't great harps, and they taste terrible for the first couple of hours of play for each one, but it saved me enough money so I was able to get one decent harp too. (You can get a set of 7 Piedmonts w/ a case for under $30). In the over $5 harp category I have Blues Harps, SP20s, Lee Oskars, a Golden Melody, a cheap chromatic, a pair of Huang Musettes and a $100 Low Low tuned Blues Favorite. I've bought them as I've gone on. From an economics point of view the Piedmonts were perfect. You know what? I can blowbend on some of them, and even got a squealy OB out of one the other day. Even a cheap Buddha harp would cost more than any harp I own. Would I like to own a Buddha harp? Sure, but I'd rather have a 'good enough' harp in each key first. My low low harp is way better than any other harp I own, but I wouldn't have got it before I filled out my keys.
I realize the customizers want to drum up business for their harps, and that by all the reviews they actually make some damn good instruments. Not everyone can afford them though. You need to listen to us when we say that. It doesn't mean that if we came into some cash we might not throw it your way, or that you should drop your prices (you need to make money), but don't do the high pressure car salesman bit.
@TnFrank I appreciate the fact that you are on a tight budget-but you need to find a compromise somewhere somehow-playing harps that dont cut it will hamper your progress @Buddha you tell it like it is and it might rub some the wrong way but think you are as honest in your assessments as anybody in this forum
"as long as I'm happy with my choice of harps then in the end that's really all that matters. " why didnt you come up with that pearl of wisdom before starting this thread and upsetting the balance of the universe?!?!? lol
If you are going to spend $60 on 4 harps or $60 dollars on one harp, you've still spent $60.
I think almost everyone who has gone past the learner stage would say that one good harp is all you really need for a long time. I'd been playing 20 years before I had a full set - even now, gigging regularly I only use about 6 keys onstage. At home I always play the same harp for practice.
My advice, take it or leave it, is don't buy anymore harps for at least a year. Your harpmaster is fine. If you have to buy something in that time, spend the money on some of Adam's Tradebit lessons, Winslow's book: Harmonica for dummies or a month's subscription to Dave Barrett's or Howard Levy's websites (I think you get a free Special 20 thrown in on Howard's site!.
you can be a bit anal about buying harps-I own over 60 playable harps so Im probably the worst of the lot-developing skill is really the most important thing you can do takes lotsof hard obsessive work
If your goal is just to have fun, you need both high and low end harps
Customs: for playing on the porch because the better the harp, the more fun it is to play.
Beaters: to carry with you on the job, on the beach, etc. because nothing is worse than finding your custom full of lint, dirt, dried saltwater, etc. ---------- Ozark Rich __________ ##########
I have been playing harp for 8 months and I have been on the forum for about 6 months. I read it almost every day, but I don't post much. I only put my 2 cents in when I have an opinion or experience on the subject. Almost all my questions and concerns about gear and technique are addressed by searching the forum archive. This keeps people that have been here for years from getting annoyed about posts that cover subjects discussed in the past. I may seem like a lurker until I post a vid of my playing, but I feel I know my place.
I choose my words carefully... Fool is not an offensive term. I'm a fool for the harmonica. I'm a fool for working dogs and women etc....
Using the word fool shouldn't be contrary to the forum creed. The use of idiot however, would be.
Definition of FOOL : a person lacking in judgment or prudence
Definition of IDIOT usually offensive : a person affected with extreme mental retardation ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
to go back to your first post, you mention getting a $250 guitar rather than a $500 guitar. However, on the harmonica end of things you are talking about the equivalent of a $50 guitar. If an instrument is so difficult to play that it just is not fun, then you will never really keep it up. I think the bottom line of the advice here is to try to get you into a harmonica that will play well enough you have a chance of really playing it, but nobody is saying you need to go to the upper end of the cost range as a beginner.
that being said our sax players parents grabbed him a c harp at cracker barrel for like $5 and dammed if it wasn't one of the better gapped harps i have played out of the box for a while..so you might, just might, get lucky with those $15 harps. but probably not.
Interesting thread... While I appreciate the expensive thoroughbreds in any field, I often take a perverse pleasure in maximising the performance from cheap alternatives.
For quite a while in the 1980s, the decidedly cheap Chinese-made Huang Silvertone was my mainstay. I liked them: the bendability of the flexible reeds, the tone, the look and ergonomics of the sloping coverplates... and of course, the price!
With a bit of tweaking, those cheap little Silvertones could really wail! I thought it was a cool harp at the time, and still do.
@TNFrank: not all Chinese harps are the same. if you want to explore different keys on a budget, I recommend the Silvertone.
I recommend going on youtube and finding some videos on gapping and embossing to make those cheap harps play better. That way you have a better playing harp at a price you can afford or want to spend on an instrument.
I used to use those Huang Silvertones. They did indeed make for a decent harp. Madcat Ruth used them for awhile too. ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
@ TNFrank: I may be repeating what someone else has said - I only skimmed the mass of text above - but, to loosely paraphrase GermanHarpist, you may be making things a lot more difficult for yourself by at least not investing a fair amount of your practice time on a fairly decent quality harp. You don't have to spend a lot. Spl20s, LOs, Harpmasters, and stuff around that price range are perfectly decent and playable harps.
The thing is, if you've not been playing for that long, it's hard to know the subtle differences that different harps may have on your technique, or more precisely, breathing technique.
Your financial affairs are certainly none of my business. Nevertheless, I find it hard to imagine that there are many people in the developed World who can't afford a handful of Special 20s, or similar.
A lot of the fellas above - DutchBones and GermanHarpist, to name a couple - are giving you good advice.
There is one other thing I would say, and I expect you may be able to relate to it from your guitar playing. When I started out playing harp, I thought something like, 'I just wanna be good enough to play a few tunes. I don't need to be the next SBWII.'
The thing is, the longer you play, the less satisfied you get with what you can do. The urge to improve wins out, or boredom wins out and you give up playing.
If you keep playing, you're probably going to want to maintain a set of at least half decent harps. The extra cost of those I've mentioned is so minimal that most people would spend that amount on a night out and not really think that much about it. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
I would also like to add that this is the last in a series of several similar questions about cheap harps. YOU have decided that cheap harps are the way to go. WE have told you not to get a cheap harp because you will have impediments to learning. You CAN learn on cheap harps. There is no point in trying to argue with us about your choice. It is not the one we would suggest.
Do whatever it is that YOU feel will aid your continued interest. You don't need to convince us or have us make you feel better about your decision. Come back in a year and blow us all away with your playing - hell, even 6 months.
Everybody has said their peace. If you bring it up again, we will say the same thing - except perhaps a little more uncivilized.
Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 3:56 PM
@TNFrank - you asked people for advice. You sort of ignored the advice that you received. Now, you are attempting to justify your purchase. Many of us have been there before. At some point, you may wish you had spent your money differently.
If not, then you're set. Personally, I think you ignored some pretty good advice, but it's your money.
Lastly, there is a lot of difference between a $15 harp and a $30 harp. You' ll learn that first hand soon enough. Recently, I bought one of those Hohner Hoodoo sets because I wanted a cheap case. I got what I payed for. A cheap case and three lousy harps. I wish I had spent the money on beer.
Joe L., actually, I think Frank listened to the advise, weighed it, and made a decision. Then, a lot of people got upset that they didn't take all of their advice and started yelling at him and he was complaining about that.
Mick, as for people in the first world not being able to afford a handful of Sp20's, well, if you are between jobs that adds up pretty quickly. You can get 7 Piedmonts for less than the cost of 1 SP20. If I buy a mid-range harmonica it means I'm financially tight for the rest of the month. My two most expensive harps (which combined would fall between the low and high end of Buddha's cost range) were both gifts from a family member with a more financial wherewithal.
Buddha, fool can be used in all sorts of connotations. You managed to fire of shots at everyone in one post. Sometimes I wonder if your dogs didn't bite you and you are secretly a werewolf. Whenever there is a full moon you get all bitey and growly. Someone needs to scratch behind your ear.
to be clear, I was never trying to sell you one of my harps. I was just stating that you, as a beginner, should try a good harmonica. It will help you with your technique going forward. That's all I was saying.
You talked about 7draw being hard to play and you questioned if it was the harp or not. I bet you have issues with bends and 2draw also. Most of these issues are gone with a good harmonica. My efforts in pushing you to get a good harps is in helping YOU become a better harmonica player faster than you normally would with cheap harps.
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
I agree that the $15 Folkmaster is a Great way to start.
I started with a full set of $5 Johnson harps. When it was time to upgrade I bought a set of 6 Lee Oskars. I was NOT thrilled at the difference. I did like my Special 20s that I got next.
I had a student buy some $100 harps, then he quit playing.
You can make a lot of music and learn a LOT on a Folkmaster. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
not to start a harp war of what brand is best,ive heard the johnsons for a cheap harp were not bad,but for the money LO are great cause ive have 6 for over a year and a half there just now getting broke in,most of the 18 months been on the C harp thats what my lessons were,I got a seydel which i loved the way it sounded and played for the whole month it played,and the 2 sets of plates lasted about a month a piece,But sence ive been out of work a looooooong time LO are great for a mid price harp that will give you your moneys worth in hours of playability.there Tanks ---------- Hobostubs
I used to use Huangs to. They were hit and miss but when you got a good one it was very good. My Eb harp that I always used at one time was a Huang silvertone. I can't ever remember blowing any out. ----------
