Dirty-South Blues Harp Forum: For blues harmonica players, students, and fans

Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > What!!! Hohner caters for learners ?

What!!! Hohner caters for learners ?

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N.O.D. 195 posts Sep 15, 2010 2:32 AM	Bro's have never botherd to look into Hohner History but HOHNERS ethic today of catering to the Learner Player made me go back and find out how a mans dream of making an instrument for all players has been reduced to the mental ethic today of producing Harmonicas for Learners:( Thats right I didn't know who or how many Persons where involved in the making of my Favourite Brand Harp Hohner Special – 20 :) Matthias Hohner, who was originally a clockmaker, started making harmonicas ( by hand ) in 1857 with his wife and a single employee. 650 were made in the first year. Hohner harmonicas quickly became popular and during Matthias' lifetime he built the largest harmonica factory in the world. During the American Civil War Matthias Hohner gave harmonicas to family members in the United States who in turn gave them to the fighting soldiers Bro's Hohners ethic of catering to the learner is an insult especialy the last paragraph, how a man's dream can be used as a money making tool to rip billions of dollars out of learner players, or persons who will buy a Harp play it a few times and tuck it away in the top draw or bottom of the Toy Box:( it's a full proof plan no need to make changes give the suckers what they get they don't know what they want we know what they want you will get what we give you:( or did they listen to the elite Pro's and give them what they wanted:( when Did Matthias Hohners dream get turned into this monster, I don't know haven't got a clue but with the current ethic of today the persons GEO or who ever it be, holding fast to this cater to Learner's only ethic:( get rid of him/her and the rest of the dead wood they have effected the company and destroyed a man's dream:( Robbing learner Players not bothering to cater to the the loyalists to there Brand who demand more from there instrument than a learner player:( how can a company advance into the future with this ethic will they relize they have to keep up with the other Harp Company's that are pushing Forward SUSUKI, HARRISON not sure who else, but they are Listening to the Harmonicist community and Have a very big customer Base:) is it only when these new company's take over the learner market, and well known Harp Instructors start telling students to buy Susuki harps or other Brands will Hohner start to Listen:( Yo Buddha you mentioned in the Harrison Harp thread you Spoke to Steve Baker at SPAH about some improvements but he said Hohner had there own way of doing things:( Could I ask what you may have suggested to Hohner reps:) Hohner do some things to help Pro players, What are these things offerd only to the elite, and nothing for us poor barsterds in the middle:( Bro you was even offered an Elite Level Endorsement that is given out to very few players but what that endorsement entails isn't really that much different from their regular endorsement. Bro you got me interested Just what was on Offer what do the Elite get it sounds way much better Ps Bro's don't get me wrong I'm a Loylist to Hohner but after reading the Harrison Harp thread and that Buddha said Hohner don't make Harps for real Harmonicists they make Harps for learners:( But Susuki is taking onboard what Pro Players around the world are suggesting and Big B-man is working on the Manji i ask just why isn't Hohner listening:) we as Players can only benifit Hohner can Benifit from input and i could buy a whole new Brand designed with input from the Best in the Harmonicist world:) ---------- Please sir can i have some more?
Stickman 410 posts Sep 15, 2010 3:20 AM	I think what Buddha meant is that Hohner's focus is to make harps for the masses and leaves it to other companies to make high end harps for the professional level player, Probably not a bad business plan considering, probably 90% of players are at the learning beginning level, own one harp and never plan to go to an open mic night or even play amplified. Hohners are like Hondas (for the masses) and B-rads are like Ferraris (for the enthusiast) and the other models fall in between. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
TNFrank 62 posts Sep 15, 2010 6:34 AM	I don't see where there's a problem. As somewhat of a "Learner" myself I'm glad that Hohner has low end models that will allow me to explore Harmonica without having to make a huge investment in gear. We all have to start someplace, maybe there's a kid that can only afford a $5 dollar Blues Band, if Hohner didn't cater to that kid and only made high end harps then he'd not have anything to buy and he wouldn't know if he was the next Adam Gussow or not. I'm glad that a company like Hohner is willing to make lower end instruments so we all have something affordable to play when we're starting out. IF the only harps out there were $40 bucks and up Pro Quality harps then I'd probably not have gotten into it but since I got a set of 5 Hot Metals for $35 bucks I can afford to explore this great little instrument and if/when I'm ready I can spend the $40 or $50 bucks on something better. ---------- Harps: Suzuki HarpMaster in C (on order) Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
MrVerylongusername 1229 posts Sep 15, 2010 7:08 AM	Hohner isn't a harmonica company, it is a Harmonika company. Harmonika being the German word which can apply equally to harmonica (Mundharmonika) and accordion (Handharmonika). I guess it's easy for us as harp players to dismiss the whole other side of what Hohner do. An accordion takes considerably more craftsmanship hours than a Marine Band. In the 90s they outsourced all the low end stuff to China, presumably so their German production could concentrate on a streamlined range of mid-to-top range diatonics, the more 'specialist' chroms and orchestral harmonicas and their accordion range. I recall reading somewhere (either Harp-L or here) that one of Hohner's biggest points of sale for diatonics is German airport giftshops. If that is really true (and without the source I can't say), then you can't really blame them for concentrating on making harps for the mass market. It doesn't help matters for the humble harp that the accordion is very popular in Germany and a good accordion should last a lifetime (with care and servicing). An good accordion is a sizeable investment with a great deal of prestige. Harmonicas are still disposable items; throw-away items for gift shops. Hohner tried the prestige, flagship harmonica idea with the Meisterklasse - didn't really take off. It might seem difficult to swallow from a harp player's perspective, but I think they probably have their business model about right. I'd be interested to hear what Germanharpist (from a German cultural perspective) and Dave Payne think(with his knowledge of the country and the history of its harmonica factories)
TNFrank 64 posts Sep 15, 2010 7:29 AM	Hohner also makes guitars too. Although they're not real high quality instruments, more of an entry level. ---------- Harps: Suzuki HarpMaster in C (on order) Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
Buddha 2447 posts Sep 15, 2010 7:42 AM	my conversation with Hohner must remain private for now. Since the elite level of endorsement is limited to "about a dozen players", I can't discuss the terms of that either. All companies are in the business of making money. They lose money by catering to pro level players who demand better harps. Hohner does in fact work with some of the best players and techs on the planet but ultimately, the harmonica is relegated to being stocking stuffers and campfire instruments as that is more than 95% of their income. ---------- "All is bliss"
KingoBad 376 posts Sep 15, 2010 8:43 AM	N.O.D. please buy a Suzuki and stop yer bitchin'. If you don't like the way they do business -- stop doing business with them and let them run their own company. Your ethics talk is out of place. Either they make good business decisions or not. Time and the company's survival and profit will tell. They have done more for the advancement of that little instrument than everyone else combined to this point. They put a little harmonica in every nook and cranny on this planet. So don't grandstand because they are not catering to your personal preferences. If you would like to form your own harmonica production company, you can do it however you like. Brad Harrison is an example of someone who did something about it instead of whining.
barbequebob 1229 posts Sep 15, 2010 11:00 AM	Look at it this way: If you want pro level quality, you can NEVER get that on the cheap and all the whining in the world ain't gonna change that one iota, and that's the cold, hard, brutal truth. Harmonicas were originally never designed to do anything but play the very simplest stuff ONLY in first position, never originally designed for playing blues or any other music genre in particular and essentially designed closer for a hobbyist or a play toy and it's the players since it was invented it that changed the level of playing, NEVER the manufacturers. The first chromatic didn't even hit the scene until 1920. Large manufacturers of ANY instrument are NOT catered to pros, which by comparison to the masses, are the elite, and the main reason for being in business is to make money no matter how much you want to bitch about it. You want a better product, it is gonna cost money, plus the production break down is labor, cost of materials (and those two vary by a HUGE amount), marketing, shipping, and those are for starters and if you think any business is gonna swallow 100% of those things, you're out of your freaking mind. No instrument company is run as a non profit organization and if it was done that way, they'd all be out of business decades ago and that's a reality check whether one likes it or not and Bhudda's giving you a reality check here. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Diggsblues 514 posts Sep 15, 2010 11:03 AM	Hohner does seem to cater to the Chromatic player with some very high end Chromatics. My CBH 2016s will last a life time. That may have been the first harmonica with a plate held by screws so you could new buy new plates. Chamber also reduced tolerence by Chrome plating the reed plates. The originals were only brass. ---------- How you doin' Last Edited by on Sep 15, 2010 11:05 AM
LIP RIPPER 308 posts Sep 15, 2010 12:31 PM	Dog, you used a period! You wouldn't believe how they beat me up over using all upper case. I think I'm permanently scarred. You special 20 lovers are pissin me off with all this praise. I don't have one. now I want one, but how could I buy something from such a shitty company? Okay, where do you get these elite models? Chris you're holding them aren't you.
bluemoose 298 posts Sep 15, 2010 12:52 PM	(LP, actually it was 4 periods and 11 commas!! Almost readable on first pass! LOL :)
MP 836 posts Sep 15, 2010 4:37 PM	a lot of happy:) and sad:( faces too. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
chromaticblues 183 posts Sep 15, 2010 5:08 PM	Hohner makes three very good harps Marine Band, Special 20 and Golden Melody. I don't understand why people here keep ripping hohner. I agree they are not perfect, but as you get better you'll start to relize the harps shortcomings. There are ways to overcome these problems. Or you can complain about it. Thats the way it is! If they made perfect harps they would cost way to much money! I love Marine Bands and have tried other harps to see if there was an easier way, but no other harp does what a Marine Band does. The truth is if you don't already know this then your not good enough to know the difference. If anything I don't think they cater to the better players, but no other company is either! Harmonicas just aren't high qaulity instruments. So when you hear someone that is really good. Just think of the shit it takes to get to that level!!
nacoran 2732 posts Sep 15, 2010 5:10 PM	MP, don't mock the happy face. :) In a world without all the social cues of live speech sometimes they are all that separates us from guitar players. ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer
Buddha 2448 posts Sep 15, 2010 6:06 PM	"If anything I don't think they cater to the better players, but no other company is either! Harmonicas just aren't high qaulity instruments. So when you hear someone that is really good. Just think of the shit it takes to get to that level!! " Suzuki caters to ALL levels of players. They are the most progressive company out there and are always striving to make better instruments. I have tried every harp on the market with the except of Bushman harmonicas. Suzuki's base quality is superior to all others in every class of instrument. And I never took a lesson. I could always just play at a really high level. Playing harmonica is like drinking water, you just have to figure out how to hold the cup and control the water...don't gulp, don't sip...just drink ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
jonlaing 91 posts Sep 15, 2010 9:32 PM	For the money, Hohner is pretty good. I don't really buy them anymore, because I like Suzukis, but the afore mentioned models are decent enough. If you want legitimately pro level harmonicas, you're going to have to talk to people like Buddha and Joe Spiers. Case and point, a $25 guitar is not aimed at pros, neither is a $25 harmonica. You want the quality, fork up the doe to a customizer. I also would highly recommend trying a Suzuki. I think a Manji would be a good transition point from a Marine Band. Very similar superficial design.
chromaticblues 184 posts Sep 16, 2010 4:07 AM	I almost agree with the suzuki statement. They do make high end harps. That are very nice, but most people that buy harps don't even know how to adjust the gap on a harp and don't care to learn! So now we are talking out of the box harps. That is what NOD is refering to. Why can't we buy harps and just play. Which is a good question. I think I've just gotten sick of asking and just learned how to deal with it. What I was getting at is I think more people need to look at like that. As for suzuki. I bought some manji's and the reeds were all over the place! I mean curved and gaps that way off. I spent alot of time working on those harps only to find out. Boy I really like hohner harps. Thank you suzuki for clearifying that for me!! AS far catering for the better players. How many better players like short slot harps? How many better player prefer materials other than brass reeds? I don't know these answers, but I think I have agood idea as to the first question. I like that suzuki is putting alot of effort into making harps better. I wish a company like that or any other company would just stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Take the reed dimensions(lenth, width and thickness) and reed plate thickness from a Marine Band as the starting point and just make it better! LIke the manji plays great on the top end and the overblows have better tonal quality( more consistant the other notes), but if I play one for five minutes and pick up a Marine Band in same key and play for five seconds it confirms why I use MB's. I can't be the only one noticing this! If susuki msde a Marine Band type harmonica I would gladly try it. The Manji isn't it and they don't make anything else even close. So they are making high end harps for everyone but Marine Band players? It seems to me that a progressive company with a good bussines sense would attack the leading competition's best selling harp. If the Manji was that atempt than that was a bad sign. If the Manji was not an atempt then that means they are not trying. Thats what I meant by no other company is either! Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2010 5:08 AM
Buddha 2449 posts Sep 16, 2010 6:44 AM	the manji is based on a custom filisko marine band. I think most people default to hohner because that's what they know and not because they are better. Kinda like old TVs and the 16:9 video ratios. "I can't stand those black bars!" They would rather miss portions of the movie than deal with Black bars. Now most people have widescreen TVs and do not have the same issues with the black bars. more pro than you know play suzuki harps. Even the old school guys ie: Billy Branch ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
chromaticblues 185 posts Sep 16, 2010 7:13 AM	Did the filisko custom have bronze phosforus reeds. I love hole 7 thru 10. They got that right. That is the best high end on a harp I have ever played! I wonder if they made hole 1 thru 6 with brass reeds what that would sound like? It may be based on it, but hole one thru six is to different for me. Believe me I didn't buy them just to prove to myself Marine Bands are better for me. I like the comb and cover plates. It's whats inside I feel they missed the mark on. As I said trying to reinvent the wheel. It is to different! I'd like to know how Joe filisko likes them?
N.O.D. 201 posts Sep 17, 2010 8:17 AM	Why arn't intermediate players caterd for by Hohner a learner player will possibly buy one Harp give up in a few weeks dump it in the top Draw:) Where an Intermediate Player and regular Jamer will buy more than one Harp at a time and buy many Harps over his life time, and demands more from his instrument than a learner Player:) a world class Harp builder offers advise why don't they listen? who do they listen to? The Hohner special-20 was introduced in the 70's many Brand Harps are modeled on this Harp why can't the intermediate player Have well tuned model much like a sports car with different options:) Mr Manji tryed to pull the wool over every ones eyes by putting his name to a new Harp with a world Breaking concept in Harmonica like never seen befor well almost:) what he gave the world is a suped up Special-20 a very simplistic designe that has worked for another company with new materials:( I think most people default to hohner because that's what they know and not because they are better. this is true walk into a music shop in Australia ask for a Harmonics with out asking for a Brand name the Default harp offerd is a MB Marineband, if i have to buy from a shop i ask for a special-20 or get offerd the MB Marin Band 1st, most people that buy harps don't even know how to adjust the gap on a harp and don't care to learn! So now we are talking out of the box harps. True Why can't we buy harps and just play. Which is a good question. Bro i think Big B-man would have suggested some improvments of this manner nothing to rad so why not listen, his gone for a new copmany with vision do you think he will be ofering Hohner any more advise they won't listen:( as a consumer of Hohner products i expect more do i jump ship no why because i'm Happy with my acoustic tone playing Special-20's but i do wish they had made the Manji 1st, and i won't be putting a Harp to my mouth with the words MAN,,,JI to my lips and sucking, Yeh i hear you i may as well buy a custom Harp so i can get my Extra Special-20,i been doing some Gapping and very happy i already open the backs of my Harps all i need is my custom combs and i got my the Harp Hohner should have Built a long time ago:) why should i have to do this im bone lazy i want my well tuned OOTB Harps:( Harmonicas just aren't high qaulity instruments. Matthias Hohner has been tossing in his grave So when you hear someone that is really good. Just think of the shit it takes to get to that level!! " Bro i got my (insert foul words ) Together just not the equipment take a look at my head i don't need nothing fancy just a little tune up:) ---------- like my Harps
TNFrank 112 posts Sep 17, 2010 8:54 AM	Don't know why you keep "harping" on this. Hohner has mid level harps available, The Blues Bender and the Big River are mid priced, mid level harps. Yes, I did have to do a bit of tuning to my 1 and 2 draw on my Big River but after that it's been playing ok. My Suzuki HarpMaster was spot on right out of the box, no tuning needed, 1 and 2 draw were in tune and worked great. I'm hoping it's the Laser cut reeds that made it that way so that the FolkMaster will be as good too. Guitars are pretty much the same way. Just about every guitar that I've bought has needed a bit of a set-up to be really playable. It's just the way it is in this "throw it together and get it out the door" massed produced market of the 21st Century. I started with Hohner but I'm really becoming a Suzuki fan. If the FolkMaster is 80% as good as the HarpMaster then I'll be really pleased because the HarpMaster is a really great little harp for $28.50. Sometimes you just have to shop around for what you want in something and if that means going with a different brand, well, that's what you do. Hohners are good but I think Suzuki is better. JMHO, YMMV. ---------- Harps: Suzuki FolkMaster in D and F(on order) Suzuki HarpMaster in C Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
chromaticblues 187 posts Sep 17, 2010 9:14 AM	@NOD I didn't say anything you said was wrong! And I didn't say you should buy custom harps. I'm not as open about shit as you are, but hear I'll try. Hohner isn't going to change what they do because an AMERICAN harp customizer tells them to. I believe they like making money from americans, but don't want to be told by us what to do! OK now I know that is up for debate and no I have no proof of it, but I don't believe they have proof that I'm wrong either! I hear your message. When they announced they were going to make a assembly line and all the harps would have interchangable parts. I thought WOW that is great I can mix and match parts and figure out what I like. That become known as the MS line of harps which I have NO USE FOR WHAT SO EVER! Then they announced they were coming out with a Marine Band Deluxe. I thought WOW I love the way MB's sound, but they swell up and the dividers warp. You play for a little while and some of the holes are bigger than the others. That is why I played SP 20's for 10 years. I love the sound of harps with wood combs and have wasted my money trying every other manufactured harp with wood combs and don't like any of them. I bought an "A" "Bb" "C" and "D" when they first came out with the deluxe. I'll never buy another one! So where does that leave me? I can't afford to pay more than $30 a harp. So I've been working on my own harps for about fifteen years or more just because you are right. Oh and when I started playing no harp cost more than $20. I can't afford to buy customs. So I figured it out myself! I wish you lived closer I'd gladly show you what I do. The internet is an amazing thing, but ther is still nothing like spending an afternoon having a couple beers talking harp face to face! Everyone is intitled to their opinion. I just don't feel that strongly about the situation. I love playing the harp! I only log this shit when I'm at work. I'm just killing time! Myself if the Bratical was more like $50. I would try it. I just can't spend that money! Oh kids we don't have anything to eat, but daddy sure can play the shit outa that harp! As far as sucking on Manji. well a I mean a well Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2010 1:45 PM
MrVerylongusername 1233 posts Sep 17, 2010 9:49 AM	The Manji is nothing like a Special 20. If anything it is more like a Marine Band The Special 20 is played by several pro players I can think of. Out of the box it is a perfectly good harp. Only a month or two ago you were an 'OOTB nazi' (no slur - your own words. What's changed? The Marine Band suits some players just fine. They like tradition. I don't like 'em but I'm not going to bitch about it, because there are other options for me. Pro players play Marine Bands, and amazingly some play them out of the box (don't they Doc Gussow?) If Hohner don't listen to pro players then what have Rick Epping and Steve Baker been doing working for them? Hohner did have quality control issues and made some arguably bad decisions 15-20 years ago, but things have improved. What exactly is the Marine Band Pro and the Crossover if not attempts to correct the design flaws of the original Marine Band. I think it is time to put up or shut up. What exactly is your beef with Hohner. What is it you don't like about them or makes you think they are harps only for beginners? And if you feel so strongly, why are you so unwilling to try another brand? If you don't want to buy Japanese, then try a Seydel. And for someone who posts daily on the internet, there's no reason why you can't buy one online is there?
Buddha 2450 posts Sep 17, 2010 10:05 AM	NOD - about 15 years ago, I spent over $2000 on a Martin Guitar. It still had to be set up by a professional. Learn to set up your own harps or pay somebody to do it for you. Bitching only shows you don't know much about your instrument. ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
TNFrank 114 posts Sep 17, 2010 10:54 AM	A big part of Hohner's problem, IMHO, is all the cheap, Chinese junk harps they keep selling. Granted, there's a place for a couple cheap harps, maybe the Blues Band and one or two others but they've got a bunch of em' on the market. They should stay with what got them to the top, good quality, affordable German made harps. Stop changing harps that have a good rep like the Old Stand-By and work on quality control more. Less harps, more quality and better price. JMHO. ---------- Harps: Suzuki FolkMaster in D and F(on order) Suzuki HarpMaster in C Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
Buddha 2453 posts Sep 17, 2010 10:58 AM	"Hes not the only one feeling that Hohner could do a better job." Hohner doesn't have a problem, YOU do. Hohner is what it is.... deal with it or don't. I did something about it for myself 20 years ago. What is making excuses and pointing fingers going to do for your playing? Do you know one of the things that makes me a world class player vs most of you? I don't allow things to limit me, especially little ones. Hohner's quality is a very small issue in the grand scheme of things. Want a pro class harp? There are plenty of people you can call to help you out. ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying." Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2010 10:58 AM
nacoran 2740 posts Sep 17, 2010 11:32 AM	Hohner has an interesting history. They bought up a bunch of smaller companies, and for years they had models that started out as other brands. (I have a list around here somewhere, but I think it's on the hard drive that's not reading. Dave Payne (ElkRiver) posted it originally. Hohner has some pretty good harps. They also have some cheap harps. From a marketing point of view, maybe that hurts the brand reputation a little, but does it hurt it more than the lost revenue if they didn't churn out a bunch of cheap harmonicas? Maybe harps need ratings, like ping pong paddles. Then you'd get some idea that you are getting a beginning harp Piedmont: Overblow 1, Bend 7, Comfort 8 (after the plastic taste fades) Durability 6 Blues Band: Overblow 1, Bend 7, Comfort 3, Durability 6 Blues Harp: Overblow 5, Bend 8, Comfort 4, Durability 6 Special 20: Overblow 7, Bend 8, Comfort 8, Durability 5 Lee Oskar: Overblow 3, Bend 7, Comfort 6 (Mustache Hazard), Durability 8 I'd suggest we could come up with a chart like this, but I think we'd end up with members killing each other over how well each harp overblew. ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer
TNFrank 117 posts Sep 17, 2010 1:31 PM	A ratting system like that would be a good idea, especially for a "newbie" like me. That way I could tell at a glance how a given harp might perform and not waste money and time trying to find a decent one. You'd have to add somekind of loudness test too where you'd have a machine blow thru and draw thru it at a given amount then measure the Db's it produced. I'm sure my Golden Melody and HarpMaster are louder at a given playing pressure then my Big River or Hot Metal, not sure why, but they are. Also, a lot of times an el cheapo and a more expensive harp just may sound the same but it's in the durability where the more expensive harp will out shine the el cheapo. Lots of factors to, well, Factor In when buying a harp. Just glad there are web sites like this one where I can bounce ideas off of ya'll before I pull the trigger, at least most of the time. LOL ---------- Harps: Suzuki FolkMaster in D and F(on order) Suzuki HarpMaster in C Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
barbequebob 1247 posts Sep 17, 2010 1:36 PM	On the other hand, you can't just blame the harmonica for one's playing problems because the large majority of player's problems (I'm talking 85-95% of the time) have VERY little to do with the instruments and the quality of its manufacturing and most players problems tend to lie in their playing technique and that's usually the single biggest thing many players are loathe to admit to. Now since I don't work for any harp maker, customizer, etc., nor do I have and endorsement deal with any of those, all I'm telling you is the truth. Are there defects or lower quality control? Of course, but FAR more often than not, the REAL problem tends to lie in the player's personal playing technique and that's something that CAN'T be manufactured out no matter who makes or customizes them and bad playing technique will quickly ruin any harp. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
TNFrank 118 posts Sep 17, 2010 1:46 PM	I'll admit it, I was messing around with my Hot Metal in C this morning and was up high, round the 7,8,9 hole. Well, I hit a note that, well, it wasn't a note, it was a squeeky sound, think it was the 7 hole draw IIRC. I thought to myself "man, what a hunk of junk, I'm going to get my HarpMaster." Well, it did the same thing, it wasn't the harp, it was my technique, or lack there of that made it squeek. Once I adjusted my mouth and draw pressure it was fine and even was ok on the Hot Metal. Player problem, not the harp. Has anyone else found the 7 draw to be kind of a tough note to get? ---------- Harps: Suzuki FolkMaster in D and F(on order) Suzuki HarpMaster in C Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
Ryan 354 posts Sep 17, 2010 7:30 PM	NOD says:"Mr Manji tryed to pull the wool over every ones eyes by putting his name to a new Harp with a world Breaking concept in Harmonica like never seen befor well almost:) what he gave the world is a suped up Special-20" What are you talking about? The Manji is really nothing like a Special-20, they're completely different in several ways. If anything it's most like a MB-deluxe(with the open back & side vented covers, which the Sp20 does not have btw), but it's still very much a different harp. Saying that the Manji is basically a "suped up Special-20" is kind of absurd. I'm not going to go through and list all the considerable differances (several of which are quite obvious) between the Sp20 and Manji. The Manji has several innovative design specification that unique to the Manji and the Suzuki company. What's even more absurd is saying that Mr. Manji is trying to "pull the wool over our eyes." As if he's trying to do something devious and fool all of us. All Mr. Manji is guilty of is producing a great harmonica with some excellent design innovations. Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2010 7:31 PM
jonlaing 100 posts Sep 17, 2010 8:05 PM	I second Ryan's comment about Suzuki's quality. I freakin' those harps, and I've tried quite a few. Easily the best OOTB, and hands down best after minor tweaks. Of course this is all subjective, but that's the way I feel about it. I think there is something to be said for a player buying and playing on a harp that is "beyond one's skill level." I had slow progress with my $15 harmonicas, as they were leaky, out of tune, and unresponsive. Once I upgraded, I noticed a sudden jump in improvement. With a higher quality harp, I could be certain that the errors in my playing were ME and definitely not the harp, which was educational in itself.
TNFrank 124 posts Sep 17, 2010 9:02 PM	Well, just how much better can you get over a HarpMaster, Special 20 or Lee Oskar Major. I mean really quantified proof that something costing twice as much($60 bucks) would sound and play better then something costing $30. There's only so much you can do with 20 metal reeds a plastic or wooden comb and stamped cover plates. It's nothing like a guitar where you can change the wood, have laminate vs solid, different frets, different nut spacing, ect. In a guitar you will find a difference between one costing $80 bucks and one costing $250 but really, how much different can a harp be? I just can't see something playing or sounding better then the Suzuki HarpMaster that I just got. I'm sure to someone that's really picky and that's been playing for years and years they may be able to tell a difference but for the average player I think the extra money is pretty much wasted one them. I guess for bragging rights so you can say "I paid $60 bucks for a Harmonica, isn't it pretty." well, in that case but if you played it and one that was half the cost to someone with an untrained ear(90% of the audience that you'd probably play for) they'd not be able to tell the difference between it and a Blues Band. I've had decent guitars in the $150 to $200 range, they were good enough to play on. Then I'd upgrade to a $300 guitar and to my ear it'd sound better but my wife couldn't tell any difference and wondered why I had to spend the extra money when I had a good guitar already. I'd try to explain to her that the new guitar had a solid top and the old one was laminate. The new one had a wider nut then the old one. The new one was Cedar and the old one was Spruce and she'd just tell me. "I can't hear any difference." I can "A"/"B" my HarpMaster vs Hot Metal in C and to my ear if the HarpMaster is a 10 the Hot Metal is an 8, they sound really close. In playability with the HarpMaster being a 10 the Hot Metal would be a 6. Quality of feel with the HarpMaster being a 10 the Hot Metal would be a 5. So in the way the harp feels and plays the HarpMaster is a lot better but in the way they sound there's really not that much difference. I'm sure as my technique improves I can make the HarpMaster sound even better but right now I'm not good enough to make even a $500 dollar harp sound very good. I'd be wasting my money if I spend that on a harp right now. Even Adam says he plays the Hohner Marine Band harps, pretty much straight out of the box with maybe a little tweaking and I consider him a really great harp player. If he can make a $32 buck harp sound that good then why in heck do I need a $50 or $60 dollar harp. I think some people forget that not all of us have that much money to put into what is basically a Hobby. I'm not a working pro, I don't make any money off of playing, heck, I don't even play in public so why would I invest a huge chunk of money into something that no one else will ever hear. I really think that a good set of FolkMasters will be all the harp that I'll need for quite a while. If/when I start sitting in on jams sessions or playing in public then I'll invest in a few more HarpMasters but that's about as far as I think I need to go. I'm not "God's gift" to harp playing and I don't need God's harp to play either. ---------- Harps: Suzuki FolkMaster in D and F(on order) Suzuki HarpMaster in C Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
jonlaing 102 posts Sep 17, 2010 9:35 PM	Listen, if it's just a hobby to you, then that's fine. It's honestly a hobby for me too. I'm a freelance designer/illustrator, I only loose money on harmonica. I'm not judging you for sticking to cheaper harps. I just started buying the more expensive ones, and I'd just like to make it clear that there is definitely a difference. Harmonica construction gets similarly involved as guitar construction. Wood vs Plastic vs Aluminum vs Composite comb, the particular metal the reeds and reedplate are made out of, whether the reeds are riveted, spot welded, or screwed in, the design of the cover plates, the length of the reeds, the tolerance of the reed slot. If the Folkmaster/Harpmaster is good enough for you, then more power to ya. They were great for what I used them for, but as I started demanding more out of my playing, I realized the harps weren't up to the challenge. This thread however, was about Hohner's quality control and general philosophy and business model. To that I still hold-If you're looking for a pro level harp, you're going to have to pay more than $30, and maybe Hohner isn't the brand you should buy. Play what you like to play, in the end your skills are going to make you good, not the harp.
TNFrank 130 posts Sep 17, 2010 9:47 PM	"in the end your skills are going to make you good, not the harp." Now that's something we can agree on. You don't know how many times I've head a really great guitar player pick up a POS guitar and make it sound as sweet as a mother's voice. I, on the other hand, would have a hard time getting even close on a top of the line Martin. It's more about technique then tools. Yes, there is a certain point where you have to draw the line but from that line up there's really no difference unless you've got the talent to coax that extra tone out of the better instrument. ---------- Harps: Suzuki HarpMaster in C Suzuki FolkMaster in D and F(on order) Hohner Big River in A Hohner Hot Metal harps in G, A, C, D,and E
Buddha 2457 posts Sep 17, 2010 9:56 PM	"unless you've got the talent" talent doesn't exist. thanks. ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
N.O.D. 202 posts Sep 17, 2010 10:02 PM	YO TNF you say,, Don't know why you keep "harping" on this. Hohner has mid level harps available, The Blues Bender and the Big River are mid priced, mid level harps:) Yup Toss em in the Big River:) Bro a lesser priced Harp than the Marine Band or Special-20 Price in Australia, still today has the stigma of being Junk, sorry mate thats just the way it is:) Hi OldWailer Q1 The Manji is nothing like a Special 20. If anything it is more like a Marine Band Ok never seen one up close but it Sure looks like the SP-20 sports tuned version i would like to buy OOTB:) Q2 The Special 20 is played by several pro players I can think of. Out of the box it is a perfectly good harp. Only a month or two ago you were an 'OOTB nazi' (no slur - your own words. What's changed? My words have changed Special-20 OOTB Hard Core Muther:) Time in Limbo Land i had reflections i was inhibitng my Enquiering mind by not looking into the finer machanics of the Harmonica:( what is all the fuss about this Gapping Embossing i sort my answer by Gapping a Harp and very happy,i now find all i need is a well set up Harp i run open back harps that was the next progress next is a solid Comb:) Q3 The Marine Band suits some players just fine. They like tradition:) I have tryed other Brands they don't do it for me i bought my 1st SP-20 18 Years Old Nothing has come along influencing me to jump brands:) Q4 Pro players play Marine Bands, and amazingly some play them out of the box (don't they Doc Gussow?) I have nothing wrong with my OOTB Tone:) Adam has His Sig tone this comes from within but his instrument playes a very big part in this Preference ask him to change Brands,not going to Happen Same Hear Bro:) Q5 What exactly is the Marine Band Pro and the Crossover if not attempts to correct the design flaws of the original Marine Band:/ Yes iv'e been unfair but if i listend to Chrom Bro they are a Flop:( Q6 What have Rick Epping and Steve Baker been doing working for them? Offering wrong advise to Hohner and not accepting advise from other Pro's it seems:( Q7 I think it is time to put up or shut up. What exactly is your beef with Hohner. What is it you don't like about them or makes you think they are harps only for beginners? A comment made By Buddha Hohner don't make Harps for real Players there target market is Learners he offerd advise to Steve Boofhead and was told nicely to go some were else the won't listen:( you tell a loyale consumer of your Product Like me this he askes question seeks answers:/ Hi BBQB Digging the CD Q1 On the other hand, you can't just blame the harmonica for one's playing problems because the large majority of player's problems (I'm talking 85-95% of the time) Got no Problems There Bro:) Hi Big B-man I'm a machincal kind of guy and it was time i started doing some Gapping, thanks for your and the many other YT vids i am happy with simple gapping for now, still some fine tuning but my harps are so much more responsive:) Bro's I'm not Bagging Hohner I'm Loyal to the Brand but i do have a higher demand from my instrument than a learner Player, why can't i have my Sports Tuned Special-20, MB or Pro Harp:) leave the Old Girls as they are there working Hard Pulling in the Dollars i will still play stock OOTB Special-20's, but i would also buy a set of Sports tuned OOTB SP-20's:) Am i Bitching am i Bagging my Brand Please look with differnt eyes you may see a Loyalist concerned his Maker is getting left in the Dust:( ---------- Cromo Ya cool Thanks BeardHarmonica:) Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 1:07 AM
Ryan 355 posts Sep 18, 2010 12:44 AM	NOD, when you are quoting someone please put quotes("...") around what they said. This way we know if you're quoting someone or if it's you speaking. Otherwise it just becomes even more difficult to understand what you write, which is difficult enough as it is (I'm not trying to be mean, but the majority of your last post was nearly incomprehensible to me). Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 12:47 AM
N.O.D. 203 posts Sep 18, 2010 2:03 AM	Hi Ryan i didn't answer all questions but i think i answerd your question via OldWailers post he replyed the same question:) The Japanese are masters of cloneing of other makers models and Fine tuning them, Truimph Boniville = Yamaha first model 650 road bike the TX 650 Upright twin:( MR Manji has taken a model from another Product made advancments to it and Bingo nothing wrong with That, But and say to the world he has finaly made a Harmonica he is proud to put his name on is a bit Rich when we know different now:( i did a re Edite to my above post:) WOW What is the Spam Prevention code saying to me The last 3 letter FQU ---------- Cheers
MrVerylongusername 1236 posts Sep 18, 2010 3:04 AM	Either you are unhappy with Hohner or you are not. If a Hohner model suits you and gives you the tone you want (as you say the Sp20 does) then keep buying them. If not take your money elsewhere. it is a free market. Otherwise you just sound like you are contradicting yourself. The reality of the situation is this: Hohner had literally hundreds of harmonica models in the 80s and harmonica was only half of their business. They streamlined the handmade production in Germany to concentrate on a number of popular/traditional diatonics and chromatics. Everything else they outsourced to automated production lines in the Far East. Hohner's philosophy is built firmly on tradition. They have a flagship harmonica, the Marine Band. If they try to change ANYTHING about it, they get huge numbers of complaints from players of all levels. So they tend not to make changes. They do occasionally bring out new models to try and address the most common complaints. That is what the Crossover is: a Marine Band, constructed with screws and a non-swelling comb from a sustainable, organic source. Hohner still dominates the market in terms of unit sales. Its business model works for them. Suzuki on the other hand have a smaller share of the market, they have to offer something different to the market leader. They pride themselves on being innovative. They have no big historical tradition restricting them. Change Promasters from rivets to spot welded reeds? No problem. No one batted an eyelid. Imagine Hohner doing that. So basically if a traditional harmonica is what you are after because that is what the greats of old played, then stick with Hohner. If the harps do not do what you want then customise them. If you think that hanging onto tradition is holding you back, if you want innovations like laser-cut reeds, composite combs, new reed profiles/materials are what you after then forget Hohner and try Suzuki or Seydel. Hohner are not going to change unless they suddenly stop selling harps by the truckload. I doubt that will happen.
N.O.D. 204 posts Sep 18, 2010 5:05 AM	MR VLUN Q1 So basically if a traditional harmonica is what you are after because that is what the greats of old played:( Please I'm a machincal kind of guy and it was time i started doing some Gapping, thanks For Buddha and the many other YT vids i am happy with simple gapping, still some fine tuning but my harps are so much more responsive:) and iv'e run open Back Harps for 24 months or more now a solid comb from a solid Bro and Hay Presto i got what i want:) Bro's I'm not Bagging Hohner I'm Loyal to the Brand but i do have a higher demand from my instrument than a learner Player, why can't we the People have our Sports Tuned OOTB Special-20, MB or Pro Harp:) leave the Old Girls as they are there working Hard Pulling in the Dollars i will still play stock OOTB Special-20's, but i would also buy a set of Sports tuned OOTB SP-20's:) Am i Bitching am i Bagging my Brand Please look with differnt eyes you may see a Loyalist concerned his Maker is getting left in the Dust:( ---------- I can't say i any clearer:/ Last Edited by on Sep 18, 2010 5:19 AM
chromaticblues 195 posts Sep 18, 2010 5:27 AM	NOD try putting Marine Band covers on the SP 20. I thought it sounded better that why. To me SP 20's sound a little muted. The MB plated sound clearer. Any way something to try!
MrVerylongusername 1237 posts Sep 18, 2010 7:48 AM	1." am happy with simple gapping, still some fine tuning but my harps are so much more responsive" - good. 2."and iv'e run open Back Harps for 24 months or more now a solid comb from a solid Bro and Hay Presto i got what i want' - good. What's the problem then? You will never get that ootb from any manufacturer - particularly the fine tuning' bit - because no mass production can ever satisfy everyone. Why would Chris be talking about custom Manjis if they were already perfect? What Hohner offer are harps that are good enough for the overwhelming majority of customers. Noone has ever said that Hohner only cater to beginners. That is your interpretation. Hohner make harmonicas that are played out of the box by players at all levels - yes including professional players. If you want more then you have to pay for it - that's why B-Rads are over $150 a pop and customisers charge even more. It is labour intensive and a specialist skill. Hohner is more than aware of what customisers do.To them a custom Marine Band is still a Marine Band sale - the customiser needs the raw materials. From Hohner's point of view it is better to leave the uneconomic part of the process to players and customisers. It is a niche market, too small to be profitable. Even Matthias Hohner was in it for the money. Everyone is watching what Harrison Harmonicas do; if they succeed it might have an impact on the other manufacturers' business models. Personally I don't think it will have any effect unless they start offering lower priced harps. $150 harps are not going to impact on Hohner sales at all. This is really just about economics and that is why your crusade is going to fail. I don't think anyone disagrees with you about what COULD be improved, but: 1. Not everyone wants the same thing - offering lots of choices is going to be expensive. Hohner is a business, they are in it for the money. They are not going to increase their production costs unless they can pass on the costs to the customer. People are already grumbling about prices. 2. The work of customisers has ZERO impact on Hohner sales so it isn't something they are unhappy to co-exist with. Plenty of Hohner endorsees play customised Hohners. They are still Hohners. 3. Unlike other companies, Hohner is steeped in tradition and that tradition sells harmonicas on it own. If you say harmonica, people think Hohner. Players complain that they are destroying that tradition if they make any changes. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
MrVerylongusername 1239 posts Sep 18, 2010 11:21 AM	"I dont think nobody would object to a better sealing, replacing the nails or making sure the reeds are in the right position." No and those are some of the issues the Marine Band Deluxe and Crossover address, but they are not going to change the basic Marine Band unless pearwood becomes unavailable (and some people DO actually prefer nails to screws). The changes that have happened over the years have mostly been about materials and production volume. They can't devote the same amount of time into building each handmade harp, nor can they legally have the same pre-war brass composition (lead in the alloy).

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