Hi guys. I am working on my bends (learning how to control and sustain them) and I'm using various scales to practice them. My question is, what about overblows in those scales? Is there any substitution for them that I could use and still fit in the musical context? I will not go ahead of myself and try to learn overblows now, I have to learn to control my bends first.
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 4:09 AM
They just are NOT difficult. The difference is: with bends: even if you are bad at it, you'll hear the note bend down a little bit if you practice it. That gives some immediate result. With overblows: they 'pop' out.
I'd take Adam's lesson on how to set your reed clearances smaller and try it. Bend the 6 draw, reverse breath direction (blow) WITHOUT moving the inside of your mouth. If you do that correctly, the overblow will be there.
I agree @ Mo_joe Definetely learn to control your bends first. Work one technique at a time. And it depends on style aswell. Chris Michalek stuff - Overblows Adam gussow stuff - Sometimes ----------
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Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 2:42 PM
Having come to harp playing when overblows were already part of the discussion, I started doing overblows fairly early (5-6 months in - if that is considered early).
It is, like all techniques, something that you will revisit over and over as you improve. I believe the hardest part of the OB is doing it the first time. After that, it is all refining technique.
You are not ONLY going to be practicing bends the whole time. You will be working on tone, vibrato, learning new songs, etc... You SHOULD try it every once in a while. Once you get it, it will eventually seem natural to you. It might not be something you spend much time on, but learning it early will mean that you do not struggle with it later. I think it is better to have it in your pocket and never need it then need it and not have it.
The other guys are correct to say that you should put most of your effort towards learning proper bending, but there is no reason not to apply a small amount of your time experimenting with new techniques like OBs(as that is what you are doing now anyway). Your muscle memory will pay dividends down the line if and when you decide to use them (or any technique for that matter).
"The other guys are correct to say that you should put most of your effort towards learning proper bending,..."
They and you are wrong. If you're going to learn bending then learn OBs too. They are all part of the instrument and to ignore them puts the notion in persons head they are different and more difficult. If you're going to practice the 3 half step bend then you should practice the 6OB.
You don't practice 2draw but ignore 6blow do you? ---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 8:57 AM
Learn overblows in the same way as all other bends and at the same time. It'll pay off in years to come if you learn them now. When learning to overblow and bends the main thing is to have a harp set up correctly (properly gapped). This will make learning and sustaining the notes a lot easier. There are plenty of videos on You Tube on how to gap harmonicas correctly. The best of which are by the great Joe Spiers. Here's a link to his YouTube page: Joe Spiers YouTube page
Guys. you misunderstood me. I don't believe that OB are hard, I just thought that I should practice to control my draw bends first (and OB are similar to blow bends, right?). Thank you for your comments, and now I'm aware that I should have been more specific in asking my question, I apologize for that. I didn't want to start an OB debate, I just wanted to know about some alternatives to OBs that would sound OK in a musical context, that's all (like the guys who did it before OBs were "invented"). Of course, I will practice OBs when I'm satisfied with my draw bends. And one more thing, I practice all these things by myself, I have no teacher and no one around to show these techniques to me face to face, so I got to tackle these techniques one at a time. Again, I apologize for not being specific and thank you for your advice. MBH rules!!!
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 9:47 AM
"Guys. you misunderstood me. I don't believe that OB are hard, I just thought that I should practice to control my draw bends first (and OB are similar to blow bends, right?). Thank you for your comments, and now I'm aware that I should have been more specific in asking my question, I apologize for that. I didn't want to start an OB debate,"
Don't sweat it Mo Joe, on this board, somedays you can start a flame war by stating what the weather is outside your window. You'll see.
Having tweaked a few golden melodies and learnt to overblow, I would say that they are just the same as other notes and in that sense I agree with Chris.
However there is the point that the only people who seem to be able to consistently get controlled overblows on stock harps are the people who are already accomplished overblowers; that's a bit chicken and egg.
In that way OBs are different to other bends. All the bends are there on a stock harp; overblows really require settups (which is why I guess Chris advocates that learners buy a custom to learn on).
It isn't the technique that is advanced, it is the fact that to do it you need to learn to setup your harps or pay money to someone to do it for you.
So to the original poster: if your harp is OB ready, then don't hold yourself back on learning them at the same time as other bends.
The only reason to hold back is that you are not yet skilled in setting up your own harps (that is the skill, not the overblowing - and you could work on it in parallel with your bends) or you are not prepared to pay out for a custom or high-end OB ready harp.
I still can't get overblows. Maybe it's because I'm using mostly Lee Oskars or I just haven't worked on it enough. I think I had a couple briefly when I was messing around with Bendometer. I can get blowbends on my LLF without any problem, but not overblows.
The 6 OB is almost the exact technique as the 8 and 9 blow bend. Do a blow bend on one of those holes and then just move down to the 6 and repeat the same technique.
If you learn the correct technique on a well set up harp, then it is much easier to get OB'S to pop on stock harps. After I got my Buddha harp and practiced the technique on that, I found that somehow, magically, most of my stock harps would OB as well.
For me, I don't have any harps lower than a Bb that I can OB the 4 hole on. Lower the harp, harder to OB the 4.
The higher the harp for me the harder it is to OB the 6 hole. My Eb is about it for the 6 hole OB…but 5 and 4 are no problem.
"My question is, what about overblows in those scales? Is there any substitution for them that I could use and still fit in the musical context? "
Without buying something other than your diatonic, simply play another position. Buddha or someone correct me if I am wrong, but you can possibly play any mode scale in 12 different positions. Some can be played with no bends, some with no OBS, some with both.
You can play the Dorian minor scale in 3rd position on all 10 holes with no overbends, but you will have 3 bends to practice...2 hole draw bend one step and 3 hole draw bend one step, and if you chose to go higher, the 10 blow bend 1/2 step is in the scale.
I encourage you to learn overbends as well. I hope this answers your question.
"My question is, what about overblows in those scales? Is there any substitution for them that I could use and still fit in the musical context?"
"I just wanted to know about some alternatives to OBs that would sound OK in a musical context, that's all (like the guys who did it before OBs were "invented")."
I'm not sure I understand your question correctly, but it seems you are either asking how to get the "missing notes" you get by OBing using another technique, or you are asking what to do on a normal richter harp if you can't OB.
Well what harpdude said just above me answers the second question. You have to play a different position/mode (for example play a song in 3rd or 12th, and you will have different scale degrees (notes) available, and different scale degrees (notes) "missing"), or play a different octave (for example you can play a blues scale in the 1st octave in 2nd pos with NO OB's, or you can play in the 2nd octave where you will need 6 OB and 7 OD).
To answer the first question: You need a different harp. Take a look at the list nacoran provided, and add the new PowerBender to it, as well as a whole host of other alternate tunings (natural minor, harmonica minor, melody maker, spiral, etc..). Those are all the major different routes to chromaticism and/or easier modal playing that have been invented for the harmonica.
hahaha I didnt mention trying to be A MASTER! Mo_Joe asked for opinions I gave mine. I am always focused on being a STUDENT. And why shouldn't i give an opinion because im younger than you? I havent being playing as long? He asked for opinions I gave mine. End of story! ----------
how the hell do you know im not an accomplished player you havent even heard me play! im entitled to my opinion and i stand by it you dont intimidate me Chris not one little bit. And just to let you know my overblow technique is quite good so's my overdraw.
Also to add im sick of this conversation this is a forum to help others. So im not going to argue my point any longer
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Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 2:29 PM
Don't bother at all with overblows they sound bad and are very difficult to do passably unless you have a 300 dollar harmonica, the new Powerbender tuning has made them obsolete ---------- WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
Although a good technique to learn. You dont really need a 300 dollar harmonica. I overblow and overdraw 3 octave chromatic scale on C diatonic on Self customised special 20 ---------- Everyones opinion is valid. Ms series rule!!!
The answer gloth said has got me to wondering,nothing against OB I try to use em some just to see if i can when it sit aroound bored i play LO and the only harp i have that acts like it might OB is a star performer i set up.BUT my qestion is valved harmonicas are there any down sides to using them besides not learning to OB,can one be played chromatically? do they wear out quicker or last a while?Im thinking about checking into 1 they got me curious.
ive ordered a valved promaster so ill tell you how it is. But then again im only 13 so you wont probably care about my opinion. ---------- Everyones opinion is valid. Ms series rule!!!
"OBs don't require set ups, they require technique."
Chris is quite right in this statement. However a well set up harmonica can facilitate the learner to utilise these techniques into their playing more easily. This is true of a number of techniques. For example overblows, overdraws, multi step bends (holes 2 and 3 draw) and blow bending. Bear in mind I'm not talking about "custom" harmonicas here, I'm simply referring to an off the shelf harmonica that has been properly gapped by the player for their individual style of playing.
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 3:46 PM
"Although a good technique to learn. You dont really need a 300 dollar harmonica. I overblow and overdraw 3 octave chromatic scale on C diatonic on Self customised special 20"
And it's probably slow and sounds terrible- and that's just the scale. ---------- WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
Seriously guys, Adam has been playing for over 30 years now and overblowing for 20 of them and he can't sustain them for more than a second or two and they still squeel if not used as passing tones- this is of course because he uses stock harmonicas. If a professional of over 30 years can barely do them on a stock harp what do you think someone who can't even bend notes yet will be able to do?
You're doing a disservice to this guy and his honest question by feeding him these lies. Why bother learning a second technique that is extremely difficult and doesn't sound that good anyway when you can just get a Powerbender and do it all through bends? I know change is scary but overblows are a thing of the past, get with the times and be a modern harmonica player. ---------- WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
why get a power bender if a valve will play chromatically?wait i dont know if it will,cause no one has answered my question,oops ,Blues harper i be glad to here how you like yours,thanks
Here are excerpts from two seperate posts in this thread:
"The 6 OB is almost the exact technique as the 8 and 9 blow bend. Do a blow bend on one of those holes and then just move down to the 6 and repeat the same technique."
"Bend the 6 draw, reverse breath direction (blow) WITHOUT moving the inside of your mouth."
So,...Whi... uhm....How..I mean......Oh, never mind.
@Sandy88 I'm 22 and only been playing for just over a year, and I can sustain an overblow without squeals, now that I've put a little bit of work into my harp. If it is true that Adam can't sustain his overblows it's more than likely because he chooses to play a $30 instrument.
A great guitar player can make great music on a $30 guitar, but he can make much better music easier on a much more expensive guitar. A serious guitar, sax, trumpet player wouldn't touch an instrument so cheap. So I don't see any reason why a serious harmonica player shouldn't but some money into good harmonicas... and it really doesn't take that much more money to get a good harmonica. My Promaster (not valved) is amazing, as is my Manji. They're both loud, airtight, and overblow OOTB (and that's saying something for someone so inexperienced).
For those of you who are interested in learning to overblow, the most helpful resource to me was something that Buddha said on one of his videos. Basically the 8 blow bend, and the 6OB are very similar in their technique. From there i started overblowing, and am now very comfortable with it. It frankly didn't take me much longer to learn to OB than learning to bend the 3 draw down all the way.
I bet if Adam played a harmonica that was set up to his skill level, he could hold an overblow, in tune with good tone, til he turned blue.
Oh, and to answer your question, Mo_Joe... or at least what I think your question is. If you are running a 2nd pos blues scale, you can substitute the 6OB with the 7 draw... it's not right, technically, because that's the major third as opposed to the minor third, but it's close as you're going to get on a standard non-valved richter tuned harp as far as I know... but hey, what do I know?
Of course, the easiest solution to playing chromatically, that is playing along in any key, on a diatonic harmonica is to have different keys of harmonica. Some people like the sound of over blows. Some people don't. If you are planning on only playing in one key at a time, you don't 'need' them to play.
(I forgot to mention those crazy six harp spinning wheel things!)
If you can play in 1st-3rd position you can play in any key with just 4 harps. If you can't play all the scales on one harp it's still useful to practice the modes to get some interesting different sounds.
As for worrying about getting your bends accurate before you learn over blows, there is no reason you can't practice both together.
Sandy88 Do you own a Powerbender? I think you need to go look at the tuning chart again. As much as I like the tuning (I recently retuned a cheap harp so I could try the tuning) the fact is that it doesn't replace the need to overblow. It is not a fully chromatic tuning, and the only way to play it chromatically is by Overblowing or half-valving. For example if you're playing third position you no longer have the flat 5th(an important note in blues) in the middle octave (the note you normally get by bending the 6 draw) unless you overblow. There are other notes as well that are only available by overblowing on the powerbender.
The powerbender is definately a cool tuning, and it opens up some new possibilities, but it's not a way to completely eliminate the need for overblows and play chromatically like you seem to think.
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2010 9:04 PM
Valves do allowing chromatic playing. Ill post a new thread when i get it.
@ Sandy88
My overblows actually come quite quickly and the harp is set up pretty well. But i dont really use any except the 6ob. ---------- Everyones opinion is valid. Ms series rule!!!
On a stock Golden Melody, gapped by myself. I can sustain 4,5,6, OB and 7,9,10 OD. With time and practice you can play these notes nice and fat, with vibrato, bend it up. You can eventually get the tone to where it sounds like any other note.
I am actually messing with a technique right now for blues that I have not heard of. I'm sure it has probably been done....Playing the 6 OB in first position is the flat 7th, slight leak over into blow 7 and you get the root. it is the root/7th chord...same as the 2/5 draw split in 2nd position.
Overbends are needed to get at least one note in the blues scale in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th. Each has the OB in a different place in the scale which offers more flavor. I'm sure others too, but these positions work best for me in the blues scale.
I don't think the chromatics and other options have the same blues flavor that a overbend has.
I have one Golden Melody and it overblows easily. I have worked on the reeds. It seems like I recall a post from Chris a long time ago talking about receiving a shipment of new MB's & GM's for stock. I think he said all the overblows were right there with the Golden Melodies and it was hit and miss on the Marine bands.
Someone farther up pointed out that one good harp where it's easy to do something can be a really good learning tool. I second that. I learned blow bends on my Seydel pretty easily and exported them to other harps that I hadn't been able to blow bend before.
