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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
modification to forum creed in response to problem
modification to forum creed in response to problem
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kudzurunner
1750 posts
Aug 15, 2010
4:23 PM
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As some of you are aware, I was recently forced to lock a thread that began with isaacullah posting (and humorously commenting on) a kitschy video by a Bengali harp player and got badly snagged when Lip_Ripper, landlord, used the thread as an occasion to vent against his deadbeat Bengali tenant using the term "sheiky bastard."
Isaac, who is half-Bengali, took very strong exception to that language. I'll confess that I was aware neither of Isaac's ethnic background nor the fact that that particular phrase could be construed as an ethnic slur, but then there are a lot of things I don't know, and some of them are things I ought to know.
I issued a warning to LR, who had first defended his use of the term and then partially backpedaled. I also sought clarification from Isaac, and he explained, with great passion and at considerable length, what the problem was. He felt that a mere suspension was not a sufficiently strong action, and that I would have responded with immediate banishment if, for example, somebody on the forum had angrily used the N-word about a third party and in conjunction with the word bastard. That is true.
Nevertheless, I had three reasons for not banishing LR. First, he did apologize, if partially, and he did so of his own accord, fairly quickly. Second, I've met him several times and shared a beer or two, and it's hard to write somebody off when you've had favorable prior face-to-face interactions with them. Third, there isn't in fact--or wasn't, until today--anything on the forum creed that said "Racial slurs are not welcome here." I don't feel right about banishing anybody for doing something that isn't implicitly or explicitly forbidden. Uttering something that can be construed as an ethnic slur about somebody who is not a forum member wasn't, until now, forbidden.
I have modified the forum creed. Please read it. I have also attempted to lighten the load slightly, at the end of the new paragraph. I am probably in bad taste, but I'll leave it to the Australians and New Zealanders to weigh in on that.
Issac is still pretty upset. Since Isaac is not merely a moderator here, but somebody who has poured heart and soul into every aspect of his membership, including trying to rescue this place from its own retrograde tendencies by encouraging us all to put faces next to our signatures, he deserves, and gets, extra consideration. When I suggested that Isaac start a thread in which he explain why he's upset, using the occasion as a teaching moment, he countered with the suggestion that I post some of his emailed correspondence with me. I am doing that; his words begin just below the line of asterisks.
The point of all this isn't to put on a show-trial for Lip_Ripper, nor is it to decide that Isaac is just being oversensitive. The point is to address an issue that we can't finally NOT address. This forum isn't just an American community, or a men's community, or a white guys' frathouse. It's a diverse community that draws its energy, creativity, and purpose from around the world: English speakers of every race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, you name it. I don't want us all walking on pins and needles around each other, but I do want us ALL not to presume that "we" are only one kind of person, and that "other" kinds of people can be safely mocked, or insulted, or raged at. It ain't like that. Thanks to Isaac for pointing that out. Here are some of his words. These words are taken from his second long email to me; the words in his first email, closer to the incident, were considerably more emotional. I hope you'll reflect on the words I'm sharing here, as I have.
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Adam,
Thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate the delicate position you are in: trying to keep things open and fluid but also fair and balanced while also trying to play Marshall to a bunch of fairly unruly characters. Some few points of clarification:
First: I'm not Middle Eastern. I'm half Bangladeshi and half White. Bangladesh, is part of South Asia and is more culturally and linguistically aligned with India, although Islam is the official religion of Bangladesh. Bangladesh used to be part of India until the English partition in 1950. Then it was part of Pakistan, but the East Pakistanis took such advantage of Bengali's that the two countries split apart after a bloody revolution in 1971. I DO work in the Middle East (as and Archaeologist), and I do have many Muslim family members and friends. I, however, am an Atheist.
Second: I'm not about to leave the forum. That would be absurd, and would let the racist win.
Third: I never suggested that the term "Sheiky Bastard" was common, nor that I had even ever heard it before. Since when does a racist term need to be common for it REALLY to be racist? How can that be part of definition. "Sheiky" clearly and unequivocally refers to an ethnic trait. Ain't no white sheiks, just brown ones. Regardless, it's not about the specific word, it's about the connotation and the meaning behind it. Calling someone a bastard means that you think that one person is a bastard. Calling someone a "fill-in-the-gap-with-a-term-for-a-specific-ethnic-group" bastard means that you think that whole ethnic group consists of bastards. That just belonging to that same ethnic group automatically classifies you as a bastard. So, being that the man LIP_RIPPER was referring to was Bangladeshi, and being that I too am Bangladeshi, LIP_RIPPER was calling ME a bastard too, based solely on the fact I belonged to the same ethnic group as the specific person he was referring to. So in that case he WAS explicitly breaking the forum creed. He was calling ME a bastard too. I know plenty of Bengali's who are bastards, and LIP_RIPPER could have called that one guy a bastard, and i would not have cared. Calling that dude a bastard is not the issue. Call someone bastard if they deserve it. What you DON'T do is call someone's whole ethnic group bastards... That's racism.
Fourth: I called several of my Bengali family members, and without setting the stage with any of the details of how I felt, I asked them what they thought of the term 'Sheiky Bastard". All of them instantly recognized it a racist term. Several got quite offended by it, but none of them had ever heard it before. That's additional evidence for my earlier point. A racist term is a term that instantly portrays a feeling of persecution to a person of a certain group, regardless of whether that person has heard that particular term before. Usually it's a term that has a linguistic meaning that relates to that group. "Nigger" stems from a root word referring to the color black. "Sheiky" clearly refers to cultures with sheiks. There isn't any other alternative explanation.
Fifth: I'm not the only one on the forum of pan-muslim/south-asian ethnicity. Oda is of muslim decent (fromeither Jordan of Palestine). Sageripadnesa is likely Southshould Asian. And there are others. LIP_RIPPER's comment instantly made the forum, OUR forum, a hostile place for us. Also, think of the global community of harp players, and how many look to you and your website. How many of them could see this and just get so turned off by it, that they never even join in the first place?
Sixth: I agree that I should use this as a teaching moment, but I'm too pissed right now to be on the forum. If I posted this info, I'm not sure if I could just walk away and not lash out. I need some time away from it to calm down. However, I DO feel that time is NOW to post this info, and not later. How to solve this then? Perhaps you can post what I've written here, and potentially any of my previous e-mail you think is appropriate? This way, my own words get on the forum, but they also come from you. That way, they carry double weight, and I don't have to feel like I need to be on the forum looking for responses.
I'll come back to the forum. I never intended to leave it. I think that if you don't boot LIP_RIPPER, you ought ask him to at least go into a period of self exile. He needs to examine is motivations and his feelings, and to learn something about himself and the others he shares this world with. When he's learned that, and can prove it, then I'll consider forgiving him. Until then, I can't and don't accept is apology, such as he tried to do so.
It's my sincerest wish that, now that this has happened, everyone can learn something from it. Post my e-mail on the forum, and hopefully that can happen.
Sincerely,
Isaac Ullah
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 4:25 PM
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conjob
70 posts
Aug 15, 2010
4:48 PM
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i happen to be the descendant of a criminal irishman and find your creed accusing me of being english extremely offensive. strike 1
and what a man does with his own sheep is his own buisiness, it is insensitive for you to judge the practices of our kiwi brothers according to your cultures norms. strike 2
i think you should ban yourself from the forum.
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ZackPomerleau
957 posts
Aug 15, 2010
4:57 PM
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Sheiky could mean 'sheik like.' Honestly, it is hypocritical to ask him to be banned when you yourself (and everyone here) has probably said something racist. If you have laughed or made a racial joke, you did so. I don't see how that is a slur. I can think of two slurs right now for other cultural groups, but sheiky is not a slur, I could make a sentence that'd describe someone. Try doing that with the 'K' or 'N' word.
And, there was no attack against you. I don't see the HUGE deal. That's just me, and I'm not saying being racist is bad, I'm just trying to make sense of something that wasn't incredibly racist (although this person may have been insensitive).
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Littoral
40 posts
Aug 15, 2010
5:12 PM
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Teachable moment. Good. Creed modified to add more common sense lines about how people ought to act. Well done.
That said, we're all ignorant about some things -meaning we don't know some things we ought to. Adam, very much to his credit, reflected his own lack of awareness regarding the phrase. One thing about living in the USA is that (often) we don’t interact as much with other cultures due to geography. That's not an excuse but an observation that I think is relevant. Teachable moment.
Not that I would have ever used the offending phrase but now that I'm enlightened (sorry Buddha) I have to figure out how to think about one of my favorite Zappa records, the one with "Broken Hearts are for Assholes".
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 5:14 PM
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groyster1
335 posts
Aug 15, 2010
5:14 PM
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I have been called much worse things than sheiky bastard-that term escapes me-sorry issac but dont think lip ripper should be kicked off the forum-the members of this forum should be civil and not attack each other-the opinions in this forum vary extremely but thats okay-but someone referring to SOMEONE ELSE NOT YOU! as sheiky bastard which means zilch to me
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Elwood
507 posts
Aug 15, 2010
5:16 PM
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I get why it's a big deal Zack, and even if you don't - which is fair enough, these things mean different things to different people, a lot depends on background and experience - even if you don't, it's probably a good idea to lay off.
I hope Isaac is able to return soon. He's a keystone to this community, as far as I see it.
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Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 6:14 PM
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Littoral
41 posts
Aug 15, 2010
5:16 PM
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CAREFUL
This thread could quickly deteriorate to ugly.
Kindness is good.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 5:17 PM
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Elwood
508 posts
Aug 15, 2010
6:13 PM
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You're right, Littoral. Judicious edit coming up.
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eharp
751 posts
Aug 15, 2010
6:14 PM
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some huge jumps in isaac's emails, imo.
and i sure aint clean enough to judge others, nor psychic enough to know intent.
okay. we have recently added religion and heritage to the banned list. never read the creed, because i would think common sense would prevail, so i dont know what else is on it.
but to tell you the truth, i can see the creed being modified a whole lot until each thread must contain questions and answers about harp or things harp related!
has science been banned?
btw- few forums i participate in and lurk upon, COMBINED they dont have as many locked threads or heated arguments. i know a few others have noticed this. if we aint careful, we are gonna be the forum our parents warned us about.
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ZackPomerleau
959 posts
Aug 15, 2010
6:16 PM
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Eharp makes a good point. And I understand how it can be offensive, but it wasn't said in a way that it should have flipped anyone out. Sandy88 called me fat once and I never flipped out. Maybe that should be fixed, too?
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Stickman
398 posts
Aug 15, 2010
6:21 PM
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@Zack - please don't feed the Sandytroll.
@Others - If you step on ones toes, wether you mean it or not, you should apologize, It is the right thing to do. Hint - Hint
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The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
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eharp
754 posts
Aug 15, 2010
6:36 PM
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and now we are into politics!
way to go, littoral.
i'm gonna start buying stock in masterlock!
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jbone
374 posts
Aug 15, 2010
7:08 PM
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this is a simple matter of respect, good taste, and manners. adam should not even have to come in here and bring this sort of thing up. i know there are folks from everywhere who visit here, some of whom never even post, they just want to see what the climate is before they commit to making their presence known. wonder what some of those folks think, looking for a good forum to take some risk in and possibly be embarrassed or scandalized for where they live or who they are? will they come back? do we get a chance to help them on their music journey? probably not.
on other forums i've seen some similar and worse things come to pass. i don't bother with that low level of sorry behavior. if indeed those forums still exist which i know of at least two that are no more. this may be the next one i leave behind if this stuff crops up again.
Adam is a very good guy, i have had the pleasure of hosting a small forum here in central arkansas recently at ehich he was the teacher, and his passion for the music is apparent and obvious from word one. this passion is i imagine a large part of why he put this forum together. why he has to play babysitter to a mostly adult membership is beyond me.
i know he's doing what's right. he's a more visionary and patient man than i am. i come here to learn and to pass on what i know. i'm by no means a pro player but i can help some folks with some questions regarding harp. these are the reasons i come here. in such a large forum there are many different people from different cultures and places. i have no wish to insult anyone who is sharing here, by intent or ignorance. we never know who we may offend with an off-hand remark. it may be someone we'll never meet but even so, a person who could take something negative from this forum along on their journey.
i see this stuff come up and i see how it's been dealt with other places. Adam is being patient, mindful, and attentive to the parties involved. that's very good moderation. but i for one really hope we can each mind our own typing fingers and refrain from the sort of off-hand remarks that brought this thread into being.
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ZackPomerleau
960 posts
Aug 15, 2010
7:10 PM
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Don't feed the troll, I didn't exactly appreciate ti but I didn't flip out over it.
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Ryan
349 posts
Aug 15, 2010
10:14 PM
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"Sheiky could mean 'sheik like.'"
So what? If that's supposed to be an excuse, and your way of saying it's not a big deal, that's ridiculous. When you're bashing someone and talking about how horrible they are, and you call them a "sheiky bastard", you're obviously not saying that they're "sheik like".
When someone calls me a stupid faggot I don't think to myself "well the word faggot could mean 'a small bundle of twigs or sticks', so therefore what they just said to me isn't offensive", that's just absurd. We can't know what LipRipper's intentions were, but the fact is his comments (regardless of intention) were hurtful and made this forum a less comfortable place for some people.
" Sandy88 called me fat once and I never flipped out."
I don't know what you define as "flipping out" (especially when we're talking about communications over the internet), but Isaac was upset about was said (and rightfully so) and he spoke up for himself, and he did quite a good job at remaining calm on the forum and not "flipping out". The message above was just an email he sent directly to Adam explaining why he was upset, and even though you could definately see that he was upset over the situation I think calling it "flipping out" is way off base.
And Zack, as I remember you were quite upset at the comments Sandy88 made about you. In fact you were upset enough to start a whole new thread letting people know that you weren't happy with Sandy88's comments. You called him an "ugly person" and you said he was a "rude jerk". So clearly Sandy88's comments did bother you(and you were right to be upset about it), so I think you should be a little more understanding to those that are upset by slurs and insults(and saying/implying that they're "flipping out" is pretty unfair).
EDIT: My intention in posting this wasn't to further impugn LipRipper(everybody makes mistakes, and if they learn from those mistakes and apologise, we should do our best to forgive and move on), my intention was to say that we should understand how comments that we might think are no big deal can have a very negative effect on other people. When you don't have to directly deal with issues like racism, sexism, bigotry, etc., on a regular basis you may not see understand why certain comments are so offensive/hurtful and can have such profound effects.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 10:35 PM
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Kyzer Sosa
731 posts
Aug 15, 2010
10:23 PM
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IMO sheiky (an obvious pun on cheeky) isnt a racial slur at all. period. there must have been something else in the deleted post that hit closer to home. anyone who takes offense to a generalization aimed at someone else besides themselves is just plain ole too tender for this world. he was talking about a piss poor tenant for crying out loud! if everyone cracked at such occurrences, we'd have all killed one another by now. we'd have never made it through the 60's
Presidential bastards? Royal bastards? Nazi bastards? Taliban bastards? Those are all area and or race specific...yet i wager no one would dare comment on their disdain for the latter two. It's all personal taste and whether or not someone got the play on words with sheiky and cheeky... this forum is inundated with all races and religions, and the english language is chock full of things that will inherently piss someone off at any given time.
I think WAY too much was made of this. Of course, i saw it's humor in the PLAY ON WORDS...but, eh, whatever man. the creed'll be half a mile long soon enough...
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conjob
72 posts
Aug 15, 2010
10:56 PM
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kyzer presidents and royal families are found all over the world and are not area or race specific. if someone calls an afgani (or someone who they think looks like one) a taliban bastard then that is racist and offensive. likewise with nazi bastard. if you lash out at someone and use thier race to do so then its racist and offensive to thier entire race and not just them. the only thing that connected the video being discussed and the "piss poor tenant" is race.
i'm not into banning topics or people from the forum but minimising blatant racism does the forum no favours.
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Buddha
2355 posts
Aug 15, 2010
11:03 PM
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if Isaac was offended then he was and telling him otherwise makes you all bastards.
Most white folk have no idea what it's like to be truly discriminated against. And unless you've experience true discrimination, you seriously shouldn't even be commenting on it.
Isaac has every right to feel slighted and Adam is doing the correct thing in modifying the forum creed.
When I was a kid, I was beaten on a weekly basis by neighborhood kids, and on a few occasions they attempted to kill me simply because I am not white.
I have very little respect for people in general and it's because of racist bullshit like Isaac is feeling and many of the people commenting on this thread are making it working by diminishing the remarks. If you wondered if I respected you before, I sure as hell do not now.
Peace on.
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"All is bliss"
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JohnnieHarp
34 posts
Aug 15, 2010
11:19 PM
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Isaac was greatly offended.
Whether others understand/agree with the nature of the offense isn't the point. An unqualified apology should be quickly offered.
The "offender" can then consider, on their own time, the implication that this sort of comment may have on their current and future dealings with those "around" them. It's all about having a better understanding and appreciation of others.
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Ryan
350 posts
Aug 15, 2010
11:31 PM
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I agree with Buddha. As I said, if you haven't had to deal with racism/sexism/bigotry on a regular basis, then you can't really understand what it's like. It can be hard for those who haven't truly experienced it to understand what it's like to feel uncomfortable/scared/worthless when you go certain places or you're around certain people, just because of who you are. People may not understand why it's such a big deal, or why someone would get so upset over a comment, but the fact is that when you grow up hearing comments and remarks like that, and everybody acts like it's normal and no big deal, it sends you the message that you're a second class citizen. When you haven't grown up experiencing that type of bigotry, and having to listen to those types of slurs, then you really can't understand, and you shouldn't be telling people that they're being overly sensitive. Nor should you be trying to diminish the way they feel.
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Kyzer Sosa
735 posts
Aug 15, 2010
11:35 PM
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the negativity in the "offensive" statement was OBVIOUSLY the bastard added to the end of it. If someone ignorant of a map tried to describe someone of foreign descent and were having a casual conversation with someone they were familiar with, they just very well might say "sheiky dude" if only to convey a visual about the person. Is that negative too? I don't think so. It happens thousands of times a day.
I wont say it was right to say it. I certainly wouldnt have chosen those words. but it isnt the most evil thing Ive heard. The problem is, it was typed aloud blindly, on a forum full of diversity. he admitted the problem and moved on. IMO Adam didnt need to start this thread at all. Simply put it should have been off the forum between isaac and LR. Like men...instead of running to the principals office.
I was very much a minority in jail. One of two white people in an entire cell block full of black folks. Yes, I know what discrimination is. No, that wasnt my only brush with it, but definitely the most concentrated. Perhaps my skin is tougher, because all the honkey, cracker, mamma's boy insults never once shook me timbers. Especially when, as frequently I heard the slurs, used in context in stories about the generalization of white people they spoke about on the outside. They werent talking about me...
Fortunately for me, respect isnt something I require in a people I have online communications with, or Id never have plugged into the internet in the first place. If that one small aspect of me is enough to sway your opinion entirely, that's your problem man, dont try to make me feel bad about that.
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apskarp
307 posts
Aug 15, 2010
11:39 PM
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For me, intuitively, the word "sheik" doesn't stand for ethnicity but for a high social position like "duke", or "king" or something like that. But then again, I'm from a culture where there are no such things. For me a "king" seems as exotic word as "sheik".
However, I haven't seen the posts that LR wrote as those were deleted soon after. So I suspect that it wasn't just that phrase but the context where it was presented that made Isaac to react to it so powerfully.
You know, if you hear "Champion" Jack Dupree singing song called "Sheik of Araby", there are no negative feelings in it. It's just good time and audience is singing along. But in some other context that could actually be insulting. So it is the context that matters. I have no reason to suspect that Isaac felt "wrongly" in this case. However, it might be that knowing the whole context where LR wrote from, could have made Isaac also to interpret things differently.
I don't know - as I said, I didn't even see those posts..
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Kyzer Sosa
736 posts
Aug 15, 2010
11:40 PM
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bottom line, he apologized WAAAAY before the lit match became a pyre. Accept it or dont. We all agree racist slurs dont belong here or anywhere there may be sensitive eyes/ears. That's that, right? How about them custom harmonica combs? yay or nay?
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shanester
167 posts
Aug 16, 2010
12:33 AM
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I am in Houston
right now having just completed an agreement to be of service empowering people all weekend in a beloved personal growth organization that I am proud to be a part of. I had to comment, if only from a blackberry.
I agree that as a white hetero american male in the 21st century, I do not know what it is like to be discriminated against or marginalized. Yes I have been called names and I am clear it is not the same as being treated like a second class citizen every where I go.
I believe in the possibility of a world where everyone has a voice and matters. I believe in peace and love and inclusion.
I encourage everyone to try to get in each other's worlds, be willing to give up being right, give up your "position", this is one of the major causes of unrest in the world imo.
To some, this may sound like pc bullshit or sensitive hippy crap or whatever. To those I ask that they ask themselves what are they truly commited to?
I am a man and I have chosen a path in life that made me "tough" and yet I cry throughout these events as I am over whelmed by the beauty of such diverse people sharing, being vulnerable, expressing what matters to them, and discovering the commonality they share in regard to the human experience.
I love being a man, and I love being strong, wild and free, and I also love being sensitive. That is my access as a musician and artist to being a contribution rather than an indulgence.
I hope this is coherent, takes forever to type on a phone.
Peace, love, goodnight.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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bonedog569
59 posts
Aug 16, 2010
12:39 AM
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we all carry scars, some deeper some fresher than others
in this crazy world, one incredible blessing we've been given is music
as different as our backgrounds might be - we feel it, we know it, we celebrate it
it is in all of us
music can be so healing
pain and hurt are real - I am not saying this to minimize anyone's genuine emotions
just to remind us to let it be -
remember this is a gift we share
let it be healing
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yogi
42 posts
Aug 16, 2010
1:28 AM
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where is the consistency when a thread which uses the term Nazi in its heading is apparantly accepted without challenge? Surely the name of those responsible for 6 million deaths is equally offensive. i notice the term of reference being used in this thread also.
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captainbliss
263 posts
Aug 16, 2010
2:31 AM
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Buddha writes:
/Most white folk have no idea what it's like to be truly discriminated against.../
To which one might add:
...and therefore don't understand that what may well be intended as a playful punch on the arm *hurts* when the recipient has been kicked about by people with far less congenial intentions.
What strikes me as enormously important, however, is to be wise enough to do the right kind of discrimination: between, on the one hand, the clumsiness of good people and, on the other, the malice of racist bastards.
xxx
EDITED for clarity
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MySpace | Facebook | Calendar | YouTube | London Harmonica Group | My Main Gig
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2010 2:32 AM
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Blown Out Reed
199 posts
Aug 16, 2010
2:42 AM
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Back to Harmonica
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N.O.D.
101 posts
Aug 16, 2010
3:02 AM
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Yogi Bro ya still ridin my arse not i nice place to hang around be warned i may Fart:/
I used a term to discribe my unwavering loyalty to Hohner Harmonica's:)
as you can see things can be taken out of context by unintension, or diliberatly by intension to start a fight or cause conflick:)
It's directed at myself i can call myself what i wish
but i can't call you what i wish see thats where it gets tricky:/
nice try i ain't takeing the bait and i will not respond to your next comment Cheers:)
Dear Isaac mate i have the upmost respect for you and read your email above in full you have invested so much personal time to the Forum i see you as a respected MBH Foundation member who should be shown the respect you give to others by being a tireless worker for the cause of MBH:)
I will stand beside you in a fight Bro my clubby is offended as am i with any racial slurs:(
Yo Adam i read the creed 1st befor i read the thread
mate i pissed myself no Problems:)
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we have lonely Sheep farmers in Australia:)
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Littoral
43 posts
Aug 16, 2010
3:14 AM
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NM
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2010 4:15 AM
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Littoral
44 posts
Aug 16, 2010
3:16 AM
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NM
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2010 4:14 AM
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kudzurunner
1751 posts
Aug 16, 2010
5:00 AM
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@Kyser: I do what I think I need to, ethically speaking, here as elsewhere, and I'm willing to let the chips fall where they may. My own views and interests aren't identical with Isaac's, and I initially acted in pretty much the way you suggested. I scrubbed most of LR's comments, made a brief comment of my own, and locked the thread. Isaac, who has manifested his humanity in many ways on this forum, emailed me to say "That's not enough." He made his case eloquently. I thought about what he'd said and I decided that I agreed--even though his views and my views still weren't identical.
Given Isaac's selfless service to this forum, his evident passion for the harmonica, and the way in which he has remained a moderate for all these months, rather than somebody who abuses for forum creed or acts irritably towards others on a routine basis, I'm surprised at the number of people here who refuse to show any compassion, but rather immediately look for ways to say "You're wrong" to him. He deserves better.
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ness
273 posts
Aug 16, 2010
5:28 AM
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Buddha, Adam have got it right.
Just accept that Isaac was offended and learn from it.
There's no good to come from continuing this debate. It's time to let it die. Often times there's deeper satisfaction in just doing the right thing. More so than the shallow and self-centered satisfaction that comes from winning an argument.
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John
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nacoran
2521 posts
Aug 16, 2010
6:03 AM
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The thing I would point out is that Ripper clarified that Sheik was in fact his tenants surname. The human brain tries and tries to organize information. Sometimes that means categorizing people by gender or race, not for the purpose of discrimination, but just so you can remember the details that separate people. Sometimes that has unfortunate results. In college there were two perfectly nice young ladies who lived across the hall from each me, both named Andrea. One was very heavy set and the other girl was bean pole thin. We ended up calling them short hair and long haired Andrea, but that was obviously not the best physical descriptor to use to describe them to someone who hadn't met them. We couldn't help thinking that in our head, all we could do is avoid saying it allowed and offending the heavy set girl (who was a very sweet girl.) When ripper jumped from Bengali to Bengali I think that is all that was happening. He wasn't associating Bengali with bastard, but Bengali reminded him of another Bengali who he thought of as a bastard. The Sheik-y bit, I think was just a result of the man's surname, at least that is what I can make out from Ripper's apologies. I don't think he was thinking of the word Sheik in that context.
I hate situations like this, but they happen sometimes. I once called a black friend 'boy'. There was pretty girl in the room and he was staring at her. He said something to the effect of wow, and I said 'down boy' like I would to any friend who was having a hound dog moment, but there was this pause, and it was there. I'd said something that in this different context than I'd meant it had a whole different meaning. I realized it; he realized it; and something had to be said, but once we cleared the air we realized that even between a white liberal like my self and a dark skinned friend (he never did say what nationality he was) there could be awkward moments.
My mother, in hopefully more amusing story, had her own unintentional moment of, well, whatever it is to say something without knowing what the implications and other meanings of what she was saying. She had two of her cats outside, Clifford and Diggerbear (Diggy for short). As cat owners are prone to doing she started calling them in baby talk, which came out as Quiffy and Wigger. I immediately stopped her and explained that these two words had different meanings than what she thought they did. That was an awkward conversation. My mom is who taught me most of my morals. She was in the crowd when Martin Luther King had a dream.
I know it's got to be tough. I'm a white guy. I've had I think 4 encounters on the receiving end of police attention; two traffic tickets, someone checking to see if the group I was with was drunk (we weren't) and a time sitting on a park bench with discussing religion and politics. The only time the police weren't professional was that forth time, and the only thing different was that the person sitting with me was Hindu.
I know things are getting crazy in this country. There are people trying to repeal birthright citizenship, and down your way, Isaac, you have some of the nuttiest nuts of the bunch, trying to require anyone who doesn't look white to carry identification. I get discriminated against sometimes as an Atheist, but that's something that I can usually pick and chose my battles on. Just know this. Almost without exception I get along with everyone on the forum. I like to think I'm a pretty laid back guy, but there is a core group of 4-5 of you out there that make this site what it is to me, and you are one of those. I think Rippers remarks came out very badly, and I can't know what he meant, but as best I can tell and from what he has said, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I hope you will two.
You know, I saw the comment, and I wasn't sure about what it was trying to say. I seriously considered deleting in, or asking Ripper to delete it, but I let it slide for a little while. I think I was waiting for you to weigh in before I decided if it had come across as bad to you as I thought it might but I should have said something to you about it, and for that, I am sorry.
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Nate
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nacoran
2522 posts
Aug 16, 2010
6:14 AM
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Yogi, as to the use of the term Nazi, well, that word, despite all of it's terrible power, does get used a lot to describe extreme position. Seinfeld had the Soup Nazi, there is Nazi this, Nazi that... NOD is from down under. I'm guessing of the allied powers the Australians probably saw the fewest Nazi's of any. I don't know how it ranks. There is a Fark meme, a reference to rules for arguing online. One of the rules is the first side to call the other side anything to do with Nazi-ism loses. I know still though, for instance, that multi-player WWII games that are being played internationally have to have the Swastikas taken out to be released in Germany. Nasty wasn't using it in a flattering sense, although I'm only going to fault him for not coming up with a more clever way to express it.
And also, back to the first issue, LR did start a thread the next day to apologize that things had gone the way they did. I hope this thread can air out anything that needs to be aired out in a way that brings us together.
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Nate
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groyster1
338 posts
Aug 16, 2010
6:22 AM
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@kyzer
I wish I had a way with words like you as everything you have said are my same sentiments right on
@kudzu
I congratulate the way you have handled this-it was very fair-as I have said before you remind me of how judge wopner handled cases as he was the first of all the tv judges
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Andrew
1120 posts
Aug 16, 2010
7:49 AM
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I'm with Buddha and Isaac.
The rest is mostly over-rationalised attempts to wriggle off the hook, as usual.
Sorry, Adam, the creed now has to be an exhaustive shopping-list? So it's the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. Cool!
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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Pluto
93 posts
Aug 16, 2010
8:25 AM
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No one has the right to determine what might offend others. Andrew is dead on. Some find living in a PC world too overwhelming.
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ZackPomerleau
963 posts
Aug 16, 2010
8:39 AM
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Well, the thing is, this means if someone mentions something I could yell it is offensive to me and start an uproar. That's my issue, there needs to be some regulation otherwise over-sensitivity gets in the way. Why are some people getting off and some others are just getting a nice slap in the face? Adam mentions misogyny in the new creed, but why not misandry? There are some ladies here, right? I feel like I don't want to be discriminated against as a male person, so I believe that is only FAIR if that is also added.
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yogi
43 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:00 AM
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@nod
not a slight at you in my comments, just responding as a jewish guy i find a problem, for reasons i hope dont need explaining, when someone calls themself a nazi.
would be a lot easier if the creed read a forum for discussing harmonicas, harmonica players and harmonica playing.
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Leonid
65 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:03 AM
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Jason was right. People on this forum would rather spend their time writing some crap than practicing.
There was an extrelemy important topic on customization which attracted 3 reponces only from Boris, Jim, and me (all Russians by the way). This thread, however, important or not, is a simple organiizational announcement and it has generated 5 tonns of bull crap.
No wonder why we sent first man to space 10 years before you american guys :)
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MJ
176 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:26 AM
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Leonoid...Don't go there. lol
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groyster1
339 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:41 AM
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yeah leonid
the cold war is supposed to be over
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Leonid
66 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:50 AM
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hehe.. Cos it is over and now we can work together on something constructive like anvancement of harmonica. Discussing who understands more about racism ain't gonna help.
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groyster1
341 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:53 AM
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look forward to pocket full of soul when it comes out Im sure all harp blowers will enjoy it
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Ryan
351 posts
Aug 16, 2010
9:59 AM
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Zach:"Ryan that was a public insult geared towards me, that was not, I had complete right to call him out. If that makes me a Nazi then so be it."
Zach, Perhaps you should read the posts a little more carefully. I said in my post that you had every right to be upset by the those obnoxious comments made by Sandy88, just like Isaac has good reason to feel upset over the comments that were made. And you both have the right to (and in fact should) say something about it, instead of not speaking up and acting like those types of comments are acceptable here, because they're not. Adam has made it clear that rude personal attacks and racist remarks(whether or not the person meant it to be racist) are not acceptable on this forum.
And nowhere did I say or imply that you were a Nazi, that's just ridiculous. I was just pointing out that you were in fact upset/irritated by the comments made about you (as most people would be) and you stood up for yourself and said something about it (which in my opinion is exactly what you should have done), you just need to realise that Isaac and others are just doing the same things, and you should respect that.
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groyster1
342 posts
Aug 16, 2010
10:07 AM
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hey everybody
did you not see our russian friend and I throwing light hearted jabs @each other we were attempting to bring this thing to an end
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ZackPomerleau
964 posts
Aug 16, 2010
10:08 AM
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Ryan sorry I misunderstood you. My big issue is nothing happened when I spoke up but when this comes out there is a riot. There wasn't a personal attack, there was offense taken to something that had nothing to do with him. That was an insult geared towards me (and also Brandon Bailey had one, too). So I suppose I want an explanation why the outcome was different. If I go "Oh, my landlord is such a Sheik" or I say, "man, why are you such a Sheik?" The first one is in general, and you can take offense but it wasn't personal, the second one is the real issue. Now we're banning usage of words. I agree with that Nazi thing but the problem is is it seems to be okay to compare a situation to Nazis and Hitler, etc. This is just outrageous, and Little Walter said it best...This is a crazy mixed up world!
But Leonid, I can easily multi-task. I did not go into the customization thread because I had no interest to. Ask people I know, I practice playing the drumset at least an hour or two a day, along with practicing rudiments and reading sheet music and learning about new kinds of rhythms (then practicing them my reading them out and using my limbs to mimic a set). I also practice intonation on harmonica and mess with piano chords, etc. Maybe some people don't practice but I sure do. And, you may have made it to space first but we reached the moon... ;)
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barbequebob
1135 posts
Aug 16, 2010
10:10 AM
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As someone of mixed racial heritage, myself being Filipino from my father's side and Polish/Russian/English/Jewish from my mother's side, I found Lip Ripper's post on Issacullah's thread EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE!!!!!
In my years, I've had to face the racist crap far more than most whites will ever understand in 100 lifetimes. Even of I can forgive, it is something one NEVER forgets!!!!
I still remember vividly when I was early in my teen years one of my neighbors in a largely white neighborhood was a former WWII veteran and to him, anybody that looked even remotely Asian he automatically thought were, in his words, "f******g Japs," and automatically thru his racial prejudice, hated anyone like that and he actually had his own kids constantly throw rocks at my windows and break them. This is no BS and it's something I can't make up.
This went on for a few years until finally my mom actually met up with him and told him that my father was NOT Japanese, but actually Fillipino, and the Phillipine Islands at the time was a possession of the US and were important allies to the US and she was in tears begging him to stop.
Finally, that did stop, but that same fool still had racial predjudices against damned near everyone.
Being bi-racial, my features are blended, and to some whites, they've made guesses of my heritage from being Greek, Italian, Portugese, Hispanic, Native American, and a few more. With this immigration thing happening, I've seen tons of whites look at me like I'm "the f*****g wetback Sp*ck here illegally taking their jobs away" BS crap until I speak and they hear I do not have "an accent," and so white America unfortunately needs a truely honest conversation about race because too many believe that everything is so honky-dorey perfect, and even tho the racial thing has improved, trust me, it is FAR from perfect and many of them have yet to take the step for a truly honest conversation about it and they've NEVER experienced the racist crap in their lives and until you've had it directed at you, you'll never in a 100 lifetimes truly be able to understand it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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ZackPomerleau
965 posts
Aug 16, 2010
10:20 AM
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I understand what bigotry or 'discrimination' (put put apostrophes for variation on definition) is, but not because of color or race. I won't disclose anything but I will say I can understand being offended but it sounds like the evidence is pointing towards it not even being a racial comment. I don't know, and personally, I really don't care because it just turns into a baby act where everyone flips out and starts finding weird interpretations.
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