So, I've done a lot of reading and researching and I am not understanding the concept of a 'blue third.' Seems like everyone is claiming it is different than a flat third, which it isn't. A blue note is a flattened third or seventh, it's the same thing. So, where is this other definition coming from that it is slightly flatter or sharper or whatever? It isn't a minor third because a minor third is an interval. Some explain please?
Seems like everyone is claiming it is different than a flat third, which it isn't
It is though. I'm surprised you can't hear the difference after playing for so long. Doesn't it sound blusier to you? ---------- WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
How 'bout a blue third on a piano :D ? Guitar players also can't bend the notes down. They can bend them up. They just use the third fret. Moreover, they bend it UP slightly (and that gives us a SHARPER third!). I'm talking keys of E or A.
So I assume it is really can be used talking about instruments with free intonation. ---------- www.truechromatic.com
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 2:04 AM
It is not purely harp related. A guitar player will often slightly bend the minor third UP to intonate between minor/major third.
For example in A the minor third is at 5th fret on the G string. A blues guitarist will often bend it a little. You can't do that in E because that note is an open string!
I think the blue third is as jim sais a purely blues oriented note and it can be very much between the three hole bent a half step and the three hole unbent... as Adam would say: the microtonal beauty of blues.
Then,... what exact pitch is 'the' blue third... well I suppose it depends on your influences. There are differnt preferences and styles. Some like the blue third a little lower and 'minor' and some higher and thus more 'major'.
Btw. if the discussion somehow should get heated and you want to jump into the battle with a furious post. Please be sure to take 1 minute and reread the forum creed first.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 1:44 AM
Adam explains it regularly, and I totally agree with him - the blue third is sharper than the flat third. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Zack most theory books show the blues scale as: 1 b3 4 b5 5 b7. The blue third seems more of a style thing now. If your playing lines with other musicians especially keyboard I suggest not to play it sharp. IMHO its a bit hard to play it on Chromatic. I have a tendency to play it a little flat moving into the minor third. When I play fast lines on the Chromatic I always play it as a minor third.
The blue third sounds a lot different to me. Play the 4 draw root note in third position, then go to the 5 draw as the flat 3rd.....Now do it in cross harp 2 draw to 3 draw bent slightly less than 1/2 step. ...lick from "That Spoon". A different feel to me...You will also hear the blue third a lot in first position by slightly blow bending hole 8.
Many years ago I read in a book about John and Alan Lomax recordings of American roots and blues how an old blues singer was getting frustrated trying to pick out the notes to a song on a piano. He was alternating between a black and white key and saying the sound he wanted was in the crack between the keys. That stuck with me. I don't really think about it while playing but probably only hit a true flat third, fifth or seventh in a minor key. This would be with harp or guitar. Probably never do it the same way twice either. Just depends on the feel of the song at the moment.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 8:00 AM
IMHO in American music it's not just a blue third its how we approach and leave a note and how we ornament a melody that gives American music it's flavor. ----------
I don't think we should try to theory-ise the 'blue third' too much. It is a thing of mystery and beauty and it should be left for the ears to apprecciate.
Besides in my experience as a guitar player there are many different levels of it, its all about how far you bend, how slow or fast you bend it, maybe even how you attack it. You listen to BB or Eric Clapton, Peter Green play through a whole bunch of licks, they'll each hit those bends slightly differently everytime- that's what keeps it fresh and intuitive. You gotta feel out the note differently for each given situation, how you feel at that time, where the music is taking you.
That's my approach anyway, to each his own I guess.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 7:23 AM
Sometimes piano players approximate a blue third by hitting the 3b and quickly sliding off it to the major 3.
Guitar players play a blue third by controlling how far they bend upwards (which, btw, can be done on the harmonica by hitting the note bent and partially releasing the bend).
Some music theoreticians refer to the second note of the blues scale as being a sharp 9th instead of a minor third. Personally. I don't find that to be a useful way of conceptualizing it.
In the blues idiom, the player plays the blues scale of the key the tune is in against all 3 chords, selecting scale tones based on their relationship to the underlying chord. Of course, some non scale chord tones are also played, but an authentic blues player does not play the scale of the underlying chord as the chords change as is commonly done in other styles of music. The blues scale of the I chord is generally played against all 3 chords. (Jazz blues may be different--I'm talking about blues blues.)
This is why some musicians say that the blues has no harmony--which is not a statement i agree with, but I do understand why they say it. Referring to the second note in the blues scale as a sharp 9th appears to be an effort to have the concept of a minor 3d being played against a major chord make sense in terms of Western harmony--but blues tonality is African, and does not actually fit into the paradigms of Western harmony.
A big part of the emotion of the blues comes from playing a flattened 3d against a major chord and whether, when, and how far one flattens the 3rd and if, when and how that bend is released UP to resolve into the 3d of the major chord. (Tension and release.) So, the "blue third" (quarter step bend) creates tension. AND, btw, in blues it is perfectly acceptable to play a major 3d for variety or as a note of resolution/release.
Similar imprecision in placement of the bend is employed when playing the 5th and flat 5th, but the flat 5th is a restless note and is not a note that resolves. 7ths are usually played as a true minor 7th or a little flatter than that. So, the flat 3rd of the I chord should be played as a true minor 3rd or a little flatter on the IV chord because it is the flat 7th of that chord. The flat 7th of the I chord can be played a quarter tone flat, or as a true minor 7th or even as a major 7th on the V chord because it is the 3d of that chord and can function as a "blue third" or even a major 3d on that chord. But when this note is played as a 7th, it should always be played minor or a little flatter (which is called a "blues 7th" or harmonic 7th).
So, much of the blues idiom is about placement of blue note tones from the blues scale of the key you are in in relation to the underlying chords as they change and whether, when and how far you bend them in relation to the particular chord and if, when and how the bend on the blue note is released. There is no method for accurately notating this stuff in Western music because Western music doesn't have a convention for notating quarter tone intervals.
These "blue note" tones are distinct musical concepts that are related to, but are different than, minor 3d, minor 5th and minor 7th.
I have been told these notes are not unique to blues. As I understand it, they are also used in English and Irish folk music where they are called "long notes." Barbershop quartet music uses the harmonic 7th. Those more knowledgeable than I am can probably provide other examples.
@JimInMO: Yes, one must always play a true minor 3d when playing blues in a minor key. BUT you can fool around bending the 5th very freely when playing minor key blues and it works just fine.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 10:20 AM
I just love Peter Green. Don't know if "Live in Chicago" is in print. He really more than holds his own among the blues veterans. I had a never CD where he does Robert Johnson songs. I couldn't get past the horrible harp playing. He should either stick to guitar or do some serious wood shedding. Didn't know Duster Bennett was involved with Fleetwood Mac. We've discussed him before here.
For pianos, because of the fact that you can't get the stuff between the keys (Or the cracks, or however you want to say it), the minor 3rd is the blue 3rd, but on instruments like the harmonica, guitar, or horns, a true blue 3rd is actually microtones inbetween the major and the minor, sort of like being close to 50 cents flat when tuning a major 3rd on a tuner and that's the real blue 3rd. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I'm not saying you're wrong Bob, but can you or ANYONE please state a source where it says this because a guitar player I know in college, dictionaries, etc, all state how I say it. I want to know where this came from. Personally, if I play a flat third SHARPER it just sounds out of pitch and sucky. This is why I ask.
I found a wikipedia site explaining it, but if it is CLOSER to a flat third then it's that, and vice versa. I honestly don't understand the point of the terminology, it is simply a intonation issue.
@Zack: You are not going to find a single reference source with a complete and coherent explanation of this stuff--I mean, I have never seen one, and I've looked pretty hard. But yeah, it's fundamentally an intonation issue.
Blues is a folk art form. It developed from the customary practices of those who first started to play it. It was only in the last 30 years or so that it has actually been studied as a serious musical idiom. The nuances of authentic blues playing developed without reference to Western music theory. That's why it is sometimes said that while blues is musically simple, not every competent musician is able play the blues.
It is an understanding of or an ability to play these "unwritten" notes in the right way and in the right context that makes an authentic blues player an authentic blues player. I mean, the guys that started playing this stuff didn't know or care whether the music they played was or could be written down. But, if you play with authentic blues players and don't play this way they'll be saying that you "don't play right."
If you are going to reject this stuff because you can't find an academic source validating it, you'll be among the many otherwise competent musicians who can't play blues correctly--a guy that "don't play right" in the parlance of the older authentic blues players I've been around.
Earlier this week I was at an open stage and I played with a guy who is a music teacher at a local school of the arts. Nice guy, decent guitarist, and seems to be an otherwise competent musician, but he is a TERRIBLE blues player--and he was totally oblivious to what he was doing wrong. (Btw, rhythmically he was playing really white, too.) One does not have to look very hard or very far to find competent musicians who can't play blues the way blues is supposed to be played.
Btw, in playing blues the 3d is not mechanically and invariably played as a quarter step flat "blue third." You play it the way you feel it in relation to the music--maybe major, maybe minor, maybe in between major and minor, and sometimes flatter than minor. It depends on how you hear it when playing the particular passage--a certain imprecision is very much a part of the blues. It is a big part of the emotion of the blues and is very much subject to individual expression. Steve Baker (the house pro at Hohner) says he thinks of blue notes as a "range" of tones--not a particular tone.
If, on certain passages a "blue third" doesn't sound right to you, don't play it that way. But on other passages it's a note that will "sing." Listen to the great blues guitarists and harmonica players and you will hear it.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 4:59 PM
@Tuckster Really dude? I love his harp playing! Not the most technical, but the phrasing and emotion is beatiful! IMHO ;) Check this one out!
Here he is playing some shit-hot licks, live at the Fillmore West :)
I suppose you gotta really step it up if you're following in Eric Clapton's footsteps ;) Greeny was brilliant, as was Eric, but in a different way. I love them both :) Overlooked EC, stupidly, for many years. After much listening to his 60s playing I have realised just why he deserved his 'God' reputation.
hwj, I'm going to ask around, but I know so many GREAT blues players who has perfect intonation. I usually hear this blue note thing as a bend up to the flatted 3rd or leaving it, but never staying on it.
P.S. Dirty, I personally think Green was one of the greatest players of his time, right behind Bloomfield.
Thanks for the help guys, good to get this cleared up.
Hold on, this next paragraph might be off topic, or dead on , or might need another thread.
At Augusta Blues Week in Elkins WV, Allen Holmes put forth the concept of blues tonalities. (my words. not his) He described blues notes in 3 zones. 1) all pitches from minor 3rd to major 3rd 2) all pitches from major 4th to major 5th 3) all pitcers from minor 7th to tonic (clarification: minor 7th is the flatted 7th degree of the major scale)
Now I am still digesting that concept. I can see where this concept can open up MANY doors in musical interpretation, as well as explain a few questions. Under the definition of "pitch range", that blue 3rd could be a lot of pitches we hear, that all sound ok in the context of the tune or riff.
This concept may need its own thread for discussion. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
@Jim Rumbaugh: I'm not so sure about the validity of what Allen Holmes said about the 7th. While a bend to the flat 7th can very effectively be released to resolve up into the tonic, I'm not so sure that playing a quarter tone bend on the 7th or a major 7th will sound particular good playing blues. But maybe I just don't understand the proper context for playing a 7th that way.
forgive me if its stated earlier, i didnt read any of the posts above, but to me a blue third starts blue and is bent upward at the end of the note... am i wrong, because it sounds EXACTLY right that way to me...
edit: it can also be bent down from slightly high to the blue note too... but the gist is that it bends at some point. audibly.. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 10:37 PM
@Kyser I believe the "Adam Gussow" definition, says the blue note is a pitch between the major 3rd and the minor third. This "between note" has an ambiguous feel of major and minor at the same time. Therefore it reflects the mood of the blues.
Some people reach the blue note by starting either major or minor and bending towards it. I do not believe "the bending" is what defines a blue note. But this act of bending does fit into the definition of a "blue zone" (for lack af a better term, my own phrase) that I mentioned in the above post.
The fact that the bending of pitch "sounds right" to you, re-inforces the concept a "blue zone(s)" rather than a "blue note" ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
@Jim Rumbaugh: I can relate to what you are saying about a range or "blue zone" between the major and minor 3d and that range may actually extend down a little deeper than the true minor 3d.
But, to my ears, their ain't no "blue zone" between the flat 7th and the tonic.
@DirtyDeck and Tuckster I know I am guilty of changing the subject of this thread but had to get my opinion of peter green-I have remastered cd of blues jam in chicago saw mick fleetwoods interview in martin scorsees documentary and mick said how his band impressed those chicago masters and I think greenie was the center of their attention-this man was the greatest BLUE EYED bluesman of all time with his great guitar,vocals and even harp blowin`
@hvyj I have great respect for your opinion, and have learned many things from your posts. I will start another thread in the future where we can debate the existance of "blue zones". I suggest we not debate the 7th(s) or 4th to 5th at this time, and remain on the "Blue 3rd".
I believe your stated opinion on the blue 3rd echos mine. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
To me THIS is a topic worth chewing over. At risk of being hvyj's fan boy, again I find his offerings most enlightening. Thanks!
After reading this thread, I decided to play with the blue third a bit. I find that I usually play it with a rising edge, or some vibrato/tremolo.
I agree that "blueness" can be found in a range of tones between the major third and down below the flat third. I'm sure that Adam has mentioned this too in at least one video. As an illustration of this, try playing the blues scale in third position, starting on 4 draw. Then 5 draw gives the flat third (minor third). Now try hitting the 5 draw with a bit of a bend. To me, that note is bluesy if used in the right context. ----------
i agree jim, i went back and played a few quick runs through the blues scale and back again and also some other tunes where you glance over the blue third, and it certainly can be a non bent note. if we cant explain it on paper, i suppose we sure as hell have to know what it sounds like! in fact, i use a draw bend on the 3 for several different "vocal qualities" which fall in that blue third range. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Piano players flirt with it by hitting the keys around the blue third at the same time or "hammering on" (guitar term) quickly when they solo.
They also play within the chord tones never going there.
Within an ensemble context, there are many ways to get the blue third out without having it be a necessity for every instrument to be able to play microtones
@Jim Rumbaugh: Well, since no one seems to be interested in talking about the blue third anymore, I feel free to go back to discussing how the 7th is played in blues.
Anyway, i was fooling around deliberately deepening the flat 7th by putting a slight bend on draw 5 in second position, and that sounds REALLY GOOD if done at the right time--I mean it sounds VERY "bluesy." So, I think the "blue zone" on the 7th lies just beneath the flat 7th and includes the flat 7th.
If one gets in the area ABOVE the flat 7th, unless it is during a quick slide as you release the 2 draw double bend up to root, I think it sounds like you are playing rock or country--not blues. I think it actually puts you in a different scale. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but when playing blues, the same sort of major/minor ambiguity that applies to how the 3d is played does NOT apply to how the 7th can be played.
One can be pretty variable playing the 5th, though. Like the 3d it can be played minor, major, flatter than minor and in between major and minor if played at the right time in the context of the music. And one can bend the 5th this way whether playing major OR minor key blues.
Btw, playing minor key blues, one can deepen the flat 3d with a slight bend occasionally for inflection and it will sound ok, but one cannot play it as a "blue third" (sharper than a true minor third) or it will sound awful if you are playing in a minor key.
Oh...and thanks for the kind words. I'm delighted to know that my posts make sense to people other than me.
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2010 5:39 AM
I really liked the Peter Green stuff. I knew who he was but never really listened to his stuff. I did see one Youtube video where he goes back into some storage locker and shows different classic old guitars he has. But it makes me sick that these great guitars just sit in a vault unplayed...like a guy who collects baseball cards and locks them away.
With the blue third question. My first guitar teacher showed me all the basic scales and different modes. His advice was to learn them well enough so you can forget them and just play the music that you are hearing inside you. So I don't really think anymore, now I'll play a blue third too often. On the guitar, I've been working in more diminished scales...I learned them a long time ago but never well enough to use while improvising...but haven't gotten to that point yet on the harp.
'Certain keys have distinctive tonalities to them' that sentence does not make sense.
Any perceived differences are purely because of associations and memories you have with original recordings. They sound exactly the same. The only difference would relate to the vocals being higher or lower causing the singer to need to use a different area of their voice. D major is certainly not any brighter or darker than any other major key.
I will confess that I PROBABLY play the minor 3rd most of the time, but that is what sounds good to me. BUT, I may be trying too hard. I need to try "bending less" and see how it sounds to me. It may just be a bad habbit. I do remember Joe Filisko saying,"most of you guys are bending the 3rd down too far" ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Last Edited by on Aug 18, 2010 9:55 AM
I disagree with Sandy. He's basically denying others' right to subjectivity. He's either considering his own subjectivity to be absolute or he's relying on a purely mathematical understanding of music. Some people have perfect pitch; others have "relative pitch" (I put it in inverted commas because I can't remember what relative pitch is); others perceive notes and keys to have colours; others perceive different keys to convey different feelings or moods. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2010 10:37 PM
