Jim Rumbaugh
289 posts
Aug 18, 2010
9:58 AM
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hmmmmm I say the subject of different keys having a different color or feel deserves a seperate thread.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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barbequebob
1151 posts
Aug 18, 2010
1:03 PM
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Jim, I agree wholeheartedly with Joe Filisko on that. Often times, the average player hits their bends harder than the unbent notes, and so they tend to lose any control of their technique, thus the intonation and articulation is often pretty bad.
There are some blues that you don't really need to be hitting a blue 3rd or hitting that hard at all. A groove with a Jazzier feel can get royally trashed when the blue 3rd gets hit and hit too often. In blues with a jazzier feel, you hear a lot more Major 3rds, 6ths, 9ths, Major 7ths, 11ths and 13ths in there.
What does this mean? Just a single note can completely change the way anything feels even to the point of either enhancing it or destroying it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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hvyj
540 posts
Aug 18, 2010
2:14 PM
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@BBQBob: Please elaborate on how you use the major 7th in "jazzier blues."
I play jazzier blues material quite a bit and i completely agree on the use of major 3ds, 6ths, 9ths, 11ths & 13ths. And I also agree that blue thirds and other blue tones may not consistently fit well with this sort of material But I don't understand how the major 7th fits at all.
Please enlighten me on the use of the major 7th in blues/jazzier blues. Thanks.
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ZackPomerleau
979 posts
Aug 18, 2010
3:23 PM
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Swampboy, that makes someone amateur? The best players in any instrument have good intonation and they are not amateurs. This blue third was used by guys who couldn't tune instruments. They were poor and uneducated, remember?
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Sandy88
85 posts
Aug 18, 2010
3:35 PM
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I disagree with Sandy. He's basically denying others' right to subjectivity. He's either considering his own subjectivity to be absolute or he's relying on a purely mathematical understanding of music.
This is not a matter of subjectivity it is a simple fact; we lack the ability to remember pitch in absolute terms. If I told you that you can't fly am I denying your right to subjectivity? How could you even type that last post with a straight face?
"others perceive notes and keys to have colours; others perceive different keys to convey different feelings or moods."
Again, you would only perceive pitches to have colors in a consistent fashion if you could remember them. I actually do see colors and shapes when I hear music and it has nothing to do with pitch but rather dynamics, timbre, and basically ever other element of music besides pitch. If you saw the color green or felt sorrowful every time you heard D# then you would have perfect pitch. It's a pretty simple test, if you can't do that every time you hear that particular pitch then you are reacting to something other than pitch.
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WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
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Andrew
1125 posts
Aug 18, 2010
3:49 PM
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"We lack the ability"?
We?
You might lack it. You don't have the right to say that others do.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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barbequebob
1152 posts
Aug 18, 2010
4:20 PM
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@hvyj -
I`d be using a Maj7th to give more of a jazzy blues ballad sort of a feel or for a ballad with a slighty bluesy jazzy feel like Errol Garner`s classic, "Misty."
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Sandy88
87 posts
Aug 18, 2010
4:20 PM
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Oh, I see you're feigning stupidity in order to get me to waste time arguing with you. Maybe you should be practicing instead of baiting people on forums.
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WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
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ZackPomerleau
982 posts
Aug 18, 2010
5:02 PM
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Sandy, maybe you should be practicing instead of baiting people on forums? Just saying.
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hvyj
541 posts
Aug 18, 2010
5:11 PM
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@BBQBob: Oh, ok. I don't really play very much "slightly bluesy" jazz material like that, but now I understand what you are referring to. Actually, I don't really think of "Misty" as blues per se.
I was thinking about material like "Red Clay"
"Equinox" "All Blues" "Afro Blue" "Cold Duck Time" and stuff like that.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Jim Rumbaugh
290 posts
Aug 18, 2010
8:27 PM
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@hvyj
The last time I "attemped" Misty, I aproached it with a major pentatonic in 12th position....I think. No blue notes. Lucky for me, I only had to do the verse.
In another thread I asked about when to use the blues scale and when to use the major. There was no definitive answer given, nor do I have one, except perhaps the presence of a lot of dominant 7th chords.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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ZackPomerleau
984 posts
Aug 18, 2010
8:58 PM
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Jim, that's a hard question to answer because there are a lot of variables. You probably wouldn't want to if there are lots of major thirds and sevenths present, but some major songs don't use those chords, either. But, think about "Hey Joe" by Jimi. It is in G I believe but you use the E minor pentatonic (or blues) to jam to it, so you just need to figure it out. If a song is in C major you could use the C major scale, possibly F Mixolydian, or maybe A minor or A minor pentatonic depending on the notes in chords, progressions, etc.
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swampboy
13 posts
Aug 18, 2010
11:20 PM
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Zack, this is a case where lack of education is an advantage...the blues and jazz guys didn't have to justify their note selection with Wikipedia!
They used their EARS and played the notes they heard in their head.
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ZackPomerleau
991 posts
Aug 18, 2010
11:35 PM
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The jazz guys used music theory just liike any modern Jazz musician. Wikipedia just so happens to have articles on music theory.
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hvyj
542 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:11 AM
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@Jim Rumbaugh: As a very rough rule of thumb, if the melody and chords have a major 7th, I ordinarily use the major pentatonic scale. If the melody and chords have a flat (dominant) 7th, I use the blues scale or the minor pentatonic scale or the mixolydian scale/mode depending on the tune or you can mix and match (use all 3, at different points in the tune) depending on the tune and what sounds good. This is actually a reasonably practical way to avoid hitting bad notes--BUT avoiding bad notes is not necessarily the same thing as playing the RIGHT notes.
Of course, I'm only talking about major key material and this is only a rough guide--but, in general, it's a practical way to approach scale selection. A lot of jazz material and certain pop material with a lot of changes can be more complex and so can't be approached in such a simplistic way, though. Like Zach points out, there's a lot of variables. But for most major key material that tends to be played with harmonica, a player can get a lot of mileage of of this simple formula.
What Zach is saying about "Hey Joe" works because E minor is the relative minor of G major so each scale has the same notes. A minor is the relative minor of C major so each of those scales have the same notes. F mixolydian includes all the notes from the C minor pentatonic scale. So, as a practical matter, Zach is talking about different names for what are essentially the same scales. This may not be a valid way to look at it in a strict music theory sense, but i am talking about practical formulas for scale selection on the harmonica, not academically correct music theory.
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GamblersHand
215 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:30 AM
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@Jim & hvyj
Simplistically, and to the best of my limited theory, I generally assume that a major key song that uses a minor III chord (e.g. Em EGB in the key of C) will use the major 7th
The other obvious clue would be the use of those lush Maj7 chords on the tonic
Using a chord based on the (major) 7th root note seems very rare - possibly because it would be some strange augmented/diminished thing (e.g. BDF in the key of C)
hvyj - I guess this is what you mean by chords having a major 7th?
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GamblersHand
216 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:40 AM
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@Zack
I'm surprised you're regarding the use of the blue third as down to ignorance or bad tuning skills - though maybe your comment was tongue in cheek?
Anyway I can recall reading somewhere which describe the blues tonality - which goes back to West African music - and the ambiguity of note choices around the major and minor third.
I think it sounds great in blues to play a riff on the I using the blue third, then play the same riff using the minor third (flat seventh against the chord) on the IV. To my ears made me sound like I was finally playing blues!
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hvyj
543 posts
Aug 19, 2010
4:40 AM
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@GamblersHand: I'm talking about major 7th and dominant 7th chords--chords that have a major or minor 7th tacked on to the rest of the notes of the chord. I'm NOT talking about chords that use the 7th degree of the scale as root.
Major key tunes typically use minor II chords and minor VI chords because the minor 3ds of those chords are notes of the MAJOR scale of the key the tune is in. I never thought about it before, but now that you mention it, that would also be true of the III chord.
Btw, I am in general agreement with your description of how the blue 3d and minor 3d are employed playing blues.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 4:50 AM
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GamblersHand
217 posts
Aug 19, 2010
5:42 AM
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@hvyj
yes I think we're pretty much talking about the same thing, just that my earlier post wasn't clear
I generally find that most music I attempt - blues, funk, rock, soul-jazz, folk, country - often uses the flat seventh rather than the major 7th.
As my 1st position playing (let alone 12th or 11th)isn't strong it's good if I can identify when the song is likely to have the major seventh in the scale and I'll end up clashing when playing my usual cross harp licks.
Obviously if a song in C uses a Cmaj7 chord it's a giveaway - but I don't come across this too often
Likewise a song with a B as the tonic is pretty rare in music, as it's an odd chord. However you often get inversions of the V chord (G/B), which would seem to indicate a major seventh in the scale
For a song using the II or VI (Dm, Am) I find that this doesn't give much guidance as to whether the B or Bb should be played
....but a song with the III (Em) does, as the fifth of the chord is the major seventh of the key.
I find that a song with a III in the progression always sounds "unbluesy" as I guess that it uses the major seventh. Country-ish songs - like, say Creedence's "As Long as I Can See the Light" work better with straight harp.
Would be curious on other's perspective on this - basically how do you tell when a major key song *won't* work in cross harp?
...aside from trying it out and using your ears
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 5:43 AM
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Andrew
1126 posts
Aug 19, 2010
5:56 AM
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"Country-ish songs - like, say Creedence's "As Long as I Can See the Light" work better with straight harp."
Sometimes, maybe, but I disagree with this song, where there are many places where a blue third fits in perfectly.
And right at the end we get a saxophone sliding from a flat/blue third up to a major third - you couldn't do that in 1st position on a harp.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 5:58 AM
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shanester
172 posts
Aug 19, 2010
8:18 AM
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I think country-ish songs sound better in cross harp, being able to scoop the notes is a huge part of the country sound.
I think straight harp sounds better when playing more straight classical type pieces where pure clean notes are more important to the character of the song.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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swampboy
14 posts
Aug 19, 2010
8:49 AM
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Yeah Mickey Raphael, mentioned in another thread usually plays cross, but major pentatonic scale. You wouldn't want to overdo the b3 or b7 on a country tune.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 8:49 AM
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barbequebob
1154 posts
Aug 19, 2010
11:01 AM
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Until Charlie MCoy came along, most country harp was usually done in 1st position.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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shanester
181 posts
Aug 19, 2010
11:10 AM
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Lol, I guess that shows how much I've been influenced by Charlie McCoy and didn't even know it!
The old country music I grew up hearing on the radio is still embedded in my brain!
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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htownfess
153 posts
Aug 19, 2010
2:13 PM
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I ran across one claim on microtonal thirds that seems confirmable to me: Remember that on 3D you start with the major third, let's say G# on an A harp, whether it's tuned to 0 cents or +12 to be more ET or whatever. Then we have the basic blue third about a quarter-tone flat, call it -25 cents to oversimplify, a G# purposely & purposefully played flat. The minor third, the G, can definitely be played at two distinct pitches that will sound "good" to the Western ear. One refers to 12ET pitch--you play the G at 0 cents.
But you can also play that minor third at the 7-limit JI pitch against the A, which is the G at something like +37 cents--a 7-limit JI minor chord has a much sharper (minor) third in order to smooth out the beats.
So what you wind up with in 3D thirds is, going up from the bottom, the 12ET minor third, then the 7-limit JI minor third, then the "blue third," and finally the major third atop that. Someone who bends well could use those two minor thirds purposefully in relation to the blue third, and vice versa.
I checked on my tuner & ear and I think that is a distinct microtone sequence. However, you wouldn't really think about it, you just use it in whatever order and people think you can bend 3D well.
I don't think that is all the microtones that matter in 3D but I think it helps chart a couple of them besides the most common "blue third" bend.
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nacoran
2549 posts
Aug 19, 2010
2:58 PM
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Remember, historically, even different keys had slightly different intervals. The French had to pass a law to prevent note inflation for the set frequency for A! Different cultures have come up with different solutions to the fact that doubling the frequency gives you the next octave but that 12 notes doesn't divide nicely into that and still create nice harmonics. I think the blue third is a result of a collision of those systems, not a lack of education, although you can argue that some education, when it becomes dogmatic, can actually harm creativity.
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Nate
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Keith R
12 posts
Feb 02, 2012
12:59 PM
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Duster Bennett was a close friend of Peter Green and Green was part of Duster's management team for a short time. I have a recording of producer Mike Vernon stating that Bennett influenced Green - not just vice-versa - and that Bennett was "the most innovative artist on the label". (Blue Horizon).
Er...without wishing to get into YouTube territory here - Peter Green BEHIND Mike Bloomfield? I don't think so...
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KingoBad
1030 posts
Feb 02, 2012
1:42 PM
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Keith, watch your thread dates. While a thread resurrection can be fun, this one is a year and a half old. Start a new thread conversation instead of picking up one that ended long ago... Some of those people aren't around anymore to write back...
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Danny
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WinslowYerxa
167 posts
Feb 02, 2012
2:31 PM
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Sandy88 says: "There is no major 7th in any scale used in the blues."
I hear both Little Walter and Sonny Boy Williamson II use the major 7th of the scale. Usually when bending Draw 2 down a semitone on the V chord when playing in second position.
Never say never. Every note in the chromatic scale is used in a totally valid way at some time by some players.
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WinslowYerxa
168 posts
Feb 02, 2012
2:41 PM
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Barbecue says: "Until Charlie MCoy came along, most country harp was usually done in 1st position"
Actually, I did a survey about a year ago and found that second position has been prominently featured in country music since the 1920s. Before Charlie came along, there were Jimmie Riddle, Onie Wheeler, Wayne Raney, Lonnie Glosson, Henry Whittier, all playing lots of second position along with first. That's without even mentioning De Ford Bailey.
In old-time music first position is more prominent, and the line between old-timey and country can seem blurry.
For that matter, country has always had a strong blues thread running through it, so blue notes will fit in a lot of country - not all of it mind you, you have to listen and make good choices.
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WinslowYerxa
169 posts
Feb 02, 2012
3:31 PM
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Just tellin' some facts, that's all . . . .
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 3:32 PM
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