I >LOVE< 3rd position for MINOR scale tunes, 4 hole and above.
I just started working on holes 1,2,&3. (Gotta to get that bending down pat.)
I can now do MINOR,MAJOR, and BLUES scale in 3rd position with holes 1,2,3,&4 (with limited quality)
THE QUESTION.... Does anyone really use, or like 3rd position for MAJOR scale tunes??? I can see the attraction for MINOR and maybe BLUES, but not MAJOR. Am I just a lazy wimp, or is this a valid observation?? ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
I have plenty of times. The average player usually screws up playing 3rd in major because they usually don't get the bends ACCURATELY articulated and intonated at all and its importance cannot be overstressed.
One SHOULD learn all of their licks in as many postitions as possible. If you tend to hit everything with too much breath force, ESPECIALLY the bends, you will have an extremely difficult time getting it and this one of the biggest problems the average player has when playing 3rd position as a major.
3rd position as a major also works well when using a country tuned harp also, which has the 5 draw tuned 1/2 step sharp. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks BBQ Bob, and Buddha. Very useful, as this is something I'm trying to improve in my own playing.
Jim, I know Brighton harp player who lurks here by the name of Shoulders (aka James) who plays the lower octave in 3rd position very deftly, easily well enough to play major scales. He's not lazy, although I suspect he's a bit of a wimp, and I hope he reads this.
To hell with you, James. With your goddamn scales and whatnot.
Chris, I don't want to barge in or anything, but doesn't that change positions multiple times? If I recall there is a 12th part, a 3rd part, and maybe a 5th part I believe. This is back memory here. And, 3rd is wonderful for major I think.
I understand that, but I remember talking about it and figuring out the chord progression. If it matters to anyone, I believe it changes, you need to play to the chords.
Knowing chord changes is important because it's real easy to lay a big fat egg when playing harmonica if you're doing stuff that goes beyond the usual 1-4-5 changes and also knowing where you 24/7/365 on it and where EVERY note is as well, and so Elwood, saying the hell with knowing the scales I disagree with. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
BBQ Bob -> To clarify, I was just goading my friend who has so much precision on his bends, because he can read these forum posts on his phone but isn't able to post responses. Therefore I finally have the advantage.
Once again, James, go to hell with your bends. Your custom harps, too.
I have a friend who plays in 3rd position with country-tuned harps. It may seem a little strange, but he actually makes it sound pretty cool. Of course you could use the 5 OB, but I'm not sure how proficient he is at that.
CT harps are fun and the raised 5 draw has one big advantage over the OB and that`s for chording. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
3rd position with Country tuned harp could be another thread, it is THAT important. I have had it it explained to me, and I see its advantages.
But the MAJOR scale is not fun to play in 3rd. You run into trouble at the 5 draw(I'm not talking country tuned). 1st,2nd,and 12th seem SO much easier. I understand that guys CAN play MAJOR in 3rd, I'm trying to find out WHY bother. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
I have methods to fast track people that work. It's best that you simply do not try to correct me unless you absolutely sure you can teach what you are talking about.
Now, properly teach what a Passing tone is, why it is used especially in this context or commit to stay away from teaching and trying to correct my methods.
How is it correcting? It is an addendum. If they were to sit at a piano and play the key of C then play an E but slide into it from an Eb they will hear it sounds good. It's like using second position and quickly bending up the minor third on the three draw.
Zach, you also gotta realize that many people on harp forums, especially the self taught guys, often haven't got a clue about theory and that means you are gonna have to take them very carefully by the hand to walk them thru it. Look at how many people just on this forum alone feel lost even at the most simplified of explanations of theory. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Buddha, not totally. I'd much rather play what sounds good than talk about it, though. I just don't think anyone appreciates being called a dumbass. ----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
I'm self taught. I'm not offended by Bob's comments because I know it doesn't apply to me.
Like I said, it's yours if you claim it. If you're think you're a dumbass then that's on you, not Bob or me. I do think YOU ARE a dumbass if you think you are a dumbass so quit being a dumbass and get on with it.
Toddgreene, before you go on the attack, think about it. How many players here understand even the remotest amount of basic music theory here or on any other harp forum?? Not a lot and most have no idea what passing tones or even scales are? Am I dissing these players?? HELL, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm stating the obvious and it is NOT meant to diss and for those who don't understand it, it has to be broken down a bit.
That is NOT meant to be condescending in any way, shape or form and I'm not attacking ANYONE and I've had communication off list or even in person about how lost some players who are on this forum feel about the theory end of things and so how is that attacking anyone?????
Think about how many newbies are on this forum alone, let alone the many other harmonica forums out there and the vast majority aren't going to know what a passing tone is. For some of them, just the very idea of learning even the most basic music theory in the world scares the living s**t out of them as it often seems for them like a pretty daunting task.
Hell, there was a point in time when I didn't know a rat's a** about music theory at all, but I took the time and effort to teach myself that so at some point, guess what, we've all been there. Sometimes we all need a tad of hand holding to help us get there.
BTW, I'm largely self-taught!!!!
Talk about reading in way too much!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2010 1:18 PM
Not all dumbasses, even those who try to better themselves, ever get over being dumbasses.
I've met dumbasses with doctorates, Dumbasses who teach, Dumbasses who revel in dumbassery And dumbasses on the beach. I've met dumbasses in politics, That's where they like to breed... I've met dumbasses in masses And dumbasses on the street... I've met dumbasses who are Atheists Dumbasses who like to preach But no one like the dumbasses Who put their harp between their teeth!!! (Everyone Now!!!) But none like the dumbasses Who put their harp between teeth!!!
(Sorry about the language, but dumbass was already out of the bag on this thread.) ;)
I will chime in that I still have not heard a compelling reason to play a MAJOR scale in 3rd position. I have read:
1)"The average player usually screws up playing 3rd in major because they usually don't get the bends ACCURATELY " 2)"positions don't matter to me" 3)"Note choice, bending, etc. Plus, you need the 7 overdraw, not just 5 overblow" 4)"with the five draw. NEVER play it"
So I believe these statements answer my first question. I am not a "lazy wimp". Some people can and do play major scales in 3rd position, but there is no advantage or compelling reason to do so.
I feel better now.
---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Rod Piazza's "Harpburn" isn't in Dminor...those are major chords all the way. He does Black Night against a major progression too although on that one I do loaf and play it in D minor..it didnt start out that way but the guys just ended up making it like that (in the minor). Sounds pretty good that way so I roll with it I do Harpburn using the 64 in 3rd but the band is in D major. Now on "HarpTHROB" you got the minor chords working. Why play HarpBURN against major chords? Well because it sounds good is reason enough, I guess. And why throw out the use of the 5 hole draw on the diatonic when in 3rd?...there are many places for it without a whole lot of work. It bends out nicely and takes the heavy throat vibrato good too. Am I missing out on something here? Don't confuse me with too much theory...I know just little enough to sound like a fool when pontificating about it. (although I was a helluva bass player once and did study under a great teacher because I wanted to be a reader and then get good money working all those union Jewish and Greek weddings where the man gave you the sheets and you BETTER play it as written)
Jim, there is an advantage if you want it. Maybe you want some tonal expression that you can't get in first position, or maybe the key you want to play will be too shrill unless you use a low harp, which happens to be something you'd need to play third on.
And Bob, I guess I don't understand why someone would try to learn the position for major purposes then. Theory is critical, at least a certain amount of it. I will take your advice, though. Take my hand and let me guide you, my name has a 'K' legally in it, no 'H'.
Hi Jim Rumbaugh-- if you are asking if people play straight, non-blues tunes in third position, e.g. "Mary Had a Little Lamb", I doubt many do. Why bother, when straight harp is such a better choice? I just tried Mary Had a Little Lamb in A, using a G harp (i.e. third position). I could get it in the lower 4 holes, nowhere else. I don't overbend, so can't get it that way. But hey, I pulled out my A harp, and there it was, in three different octaves!
I rummaged around my CD collection, and found a few blues tunes that are not obviously in a minor key, yet third position diatonic harp fits nicely. Have a listen to these, if you have them or can access them:
I've Got to Be With You Tonight - Slim Harpo My Baby She's Got It - Slim Harpo Te-Ni-Nee-Ni-Nu - Slim Harpo Dynamite - Slim Harpo Blowin' the Family Jewels - William Clarke Fourteen Dollars in the Bank - Paul deLay You Gonna Be Sorry - Little Walter One of These Mornings - Little Walter You're Sweet - Little Walter Up The Line - Little Walter
www.allmusic.com has audio samples of most of these; so do the big online CD stores.
Listen to Slim Harpo especially-- simple songs, well used third position diatonic accompaniment and solos in those songs. I notice that the songs I listed all use lower keyed diatonics, probably because so much of the playing, in third position, utilizes the top end of the harp, compared to typical second position playing.
I know I didn't answer your question directly, but in asking it you reminded me how effective third position diatonic can be on any number of blues songs.
We won't even talk about the chromatic, a whole different beast, which sounds even better, to my ears, as a third position instrument. Love the big fat chords. I'll save that for another thread. I know the advanced players are tired of the same old same old blues in D played on a C chromatic, but I'm not... yet. One advantage of the chromatic-- it's got a button! Of the chromatic players above, Paul deLay and William Clarke used the button, Little Walter didn't.
For a while, on a whim, I went to house party jams and public bar jams and resolutely stuck to third position playing, no matter what the song, just to force myself to learn my way around it, and to know its strengths and weaknesses. It fit more times than I expected, though not always. Try it some time.
To the pros-- I know I've got lots of other positions, and overbending, to learn; give me a couple of decades. I'll be 82, I'll post the results then.
Jim - personally I wouldn't play a major scale song using 3rd position, unless I had a country tuned harp. If that was the case, then it's fairly straightforward - the only tricky note at my level of playing ability would be the 2 draw half step bend to get the major third.
For major-keyed blues, playing third is common as per all the examples above. It will sound a little more dark as your blue third will be the slightly lower-pitched minor third.
I love a quote from Buddha that goes,"just because you can play it in that position, doesn't mean you should"
The advantages of 3rd position for MINOR scale are obvious to beginners when played from 4 hole on up. Once accurate bending is mastered, holes 1,2 and 3 can enhance the your minor scales with pitch expresions that come from bending.
This same ability to hit pitches between notes can be a great advantage in a BLUES scale played in the first 4 holes. You not only have the range from minor 3rd to major 3rd, but you also have a full range from the 4th degree to the 5th degree. For example, in second position you do not have the range from 4th degree to flattted 5th degree. You also have the ablity to put in major 7th if you wish (though, some would argue the major 7th does not belong, but I digress)
Yet I think I have all the confirmation I need to say,"You can play MAJOR scales in the 3rd position, but it ain't no real reason to do it" ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
